# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Software Discussion >  CC3 Feature Suggestions

## ProFantasy

Note: this thread is not about UI, easy of use or working methods, just the availability of certain tools and functions. I'm entirely interested in end results.

What features in Photoshop, GIMP. etc. are you missing in CC3? Are their particular effects for example from Photoshop you'd like to see in CC3? What can you produce in other software that you can't in CC3?

To get you started:
1. I'd like to see some kind of height field generator, perhaps integrated from FT.
2. Improved PNG export resolution.

----------


## Robbie

Glad to see this post!  I'm stickying it.

I'd like to see an easier way to pan...perhaps having a cached "render" of the map that is overlayed whenever you go into pan mode so that when you pan you can see the maps details without having to deal with the ghost pan effect...that may just be me though.

From photoshop, I think a more useful layers dialog/tab would be VERY helpful.  In photoshop you can see a little thumbnail of what is on a layer, and very easily turn it on/off and thats integrated into the core of the interface as a primary function.  To see that available in CC3 for both layers and sheets would be VERY nice.

----------


## NeonKnight

Not sure if this is correct or not, but I know when I am doing dungeons and want to draw an angled box.....I can't.  :Frown: 

I can draw a box, and then rotate it, but requires a few steps. Something like the House Command from from CD3 but for simply making boxes that aren;t always straight X/Y.

----------


## Valarian

> I'd like to see an easier way to pan...perhaps having a cached "render" of the map that is overlayed whenever you go into pan mode so that when you pan you can see the maps details without having to deal with the ghost pan effect...that may just be me though.


Can I second this one ... preferably using keyboard cursor keys, page up and page down

----------


## NeonKnight

> Can I second this one ... preferably using keyboard cursor keys, page up and page down


Ooo, and use the Centre Mouse to zoom in an out! That would be soooooooooo useful!

----------


## Robbie

I think overall unifying the drawing conventions added by CD3 and DD3, etc, would be a good idea overall.

----------


## Patrakis

Handles ... I'd like to see handles in CC3. I always thought the the way Illustrator lets you play with polygons and paths with the ancor points is a real plus. Really intuative interface.

I'd also like the implementation of gradients in CC3, if that was possible. With those, i don't think i'd go back to illustrator anytime soon  :Smile: 

Pat

----------


## mogul76

I agree with Patrakis and was about to post it myself: I think that gradients are an important feature / sheet effect which is missing.

Furthermore, as I mentioned on the Profantasy Community Forum, I'd like to see the new light entities and sheet effects introduced in the July issue of the Cartographer's Annual 2008 fixed. When exporting a map at a high resolution and rendering the areas in which the light entities have not directly been placed, CC3/DD3 "forgets" the light beams coming from other parts of the map and, hence, doesn't apply the effects.

Also, instead of areas that are not lit automatically becoming completely black, it would be nice to be able to add a transparency to that black layer. In that manner, cartographers could easily create night versions of their battle maps.

----------


## ProFantasy

Thank you for these - keep them coming.

----------


## ProFantasy

> I think overall unifying the drawing conventions added by CD3 and DD3, etc, would be a good idea overall.


Can you enlarge on this please? I don't really understand.

----------


## Robbie

> Can you enlarge on this please? I don't really understand.


Well, I was referring to the rotation of boxes like the rotation and scaling of houses in CD3...things like that need to be unified I think so that all shapes and symbols have similar functionality.  I can't remember which is which, but I know you can hold down shift or ctrl while drawing to rotate and/or scale some things in CD, but you can't in regular CC...I think some things you can and some things you can't.

----------


## RPMiller

Hm... I noticed that ProFantasy has 0 Rep. We can't allow that. I've begun the beatings.  :Wink: 

As for the question, honestly, I have a really hard time trying to come up with new features as I've used it for so long and having been a draftsman everything seems "right" to me already. I think the thing I struggle with the most though are symbol sets. I don't know what it is, but I always feel lost when I'm going in to choose symbols and/or find what I need. I'm not sure if it is the folder structure, naming, or something else entirely.

----------


## waldronate

I'd like to see:

* Faster redraws (ok, that's probably not within scope of the request, but that and the funky leftover bits from deletes are high on my list of annoyances).

* Symbol Fills based on regular symbols (including PNG symbols).

* Dynamic symbol fills (symbols stay the same size as you zoom in and out). It would be nice if they responded ot entities on highers sheets/layers as well. For example, if I draw a river across a forest I'd like have the ability to tell the forest symbols to move out of the way of the river. It's a non-trivial routing problem, to be sure.

* Dynamic Fractalization (coastline detail changes as you go in and out).

* Antialiased lines onscreen during drawing.

* A plain gripe: the default landmass tool as listed in the tutorial doesn't show what the final fractal connection will look like. I realize it's a minor gripe and probably not what you're asking for but it's annoying to draw a good shape only to have that last line go all wonky on me. Also, I can't seem to find a way to reshape a fractal coastline without redoing it (the original points I entered seem to be gone with just the fractal bits left - if I try to EDIT or DYNEDIT I can get the fill or outline but not both). Sure, I can do all of this manually but it kinda defeats the purpose of having a tool labeled "landmass".

* Artistic line styles. I'd like to see something other than basic CG lines. Sketchy lines and the like.

* Atlas tools. User can draw an overview map and then select an area to have CC3 pull out the marked area to a new map. The original map would be saved but keep a hotlink to the new map. From that I'd like to be able to say "generate HTML" to have all of that work saved to JPG/PNG files and HTML with links (SVG would be a nice option for saving the files). I'm lazy and hate doing this sort of thing by hand.

That's probably enough for now.

----------


## Valarian

I'd like to see the symbols that make up the drawing tools for forests in the CC3 overland grouped so that I could select the entire forest as a single entity. It'd be good to speed up the refresh on these as well. It seems that a few overland forests really slows the refresh rate down.

----------


## ProFantasy

> I'd like to see the symbols that make up the drawing tools for forests in the CC3 overland grouped so that I could select the entire forest as a single entity. It'd be good to speed up the refresh on these as well. It seems that a few overland forests really slows the refresh rate down.


Grouping forest is not something we'd want to add by default, if only because it would make such forests different to ones created with symbols. However, if you want grouped forests you can edit the forest drawing tools.

1. Click the CC3 icon, right click drawing tools, then pull down the list of styles to select Overland CC3 (you can repeat this on any other styles)

2. Select the first Terrain Default, Forest (let's take Forest, Mixed as an example)

3. Click the "Command to Execute" button 
SELSAVE
SELBYP
FORESTLOAD #system\fillers\mixed.fil
FOREST
CHANGEL VEGETATION
SELREST

4. Add GROUP before SELREST - eg:

SELSAVE
SELBYP
FORESTLOAD #system\fillers\mixed.fil
FOREST
CHANGEL VEGETATION
GROUP
SELREST

5. Repeat this with each style.

----------


## Valarian

> 4. Add GROUP before SELREST - eg:


It's that simple a change to the macro? Doh!
Thanks  :Very Happy:

----------


## ProFantasy

> Ooo, and use the Centre Mouse to zoom in an out! That would be soooooooooo useful!


Dynamic Pan is an option - whatever you do don't do it with Effects on or on a large map. It comes with the CAD engine, but we've disabled it by default.

Select Tools >> Options.
Select Use Middle Mouse Button for Zooming.
Click the middle mouse button - now you can pan.
Hold the left button down and move up and down to zoom in and out.
Right click for options or to cancel.

Caching a render of the map for panning would be very memory intensive - it could be an option and happen in the background, I supposed. Usually people zoom extents then window to get where they want to go.

----------


## Robbie

How about a navigator window similar to photoshops?  Basically it has a thumbnail of the map, with a red box showing the currently zoomed viewable area, you can drag that red box around to view a different area of the map.

----------


## deltadave

Would be nice to be able to export to editable vector files. CC2/CC3 are great tools, but not very good for painterly effects.  Would be nice if I could grab vector file(s) (EPS, PDF, SVG, etc) and bring them into Xara for some paint love and get access to the CC sheets and layers.

----------


## Ascension

Along this line of exporting things...the ability to export as a Photoshop psd file with all the layers (or sheets or whatever) so that I can manually tweak things and paint effects and textures on.  Just an idea, don't know if it already does this or not since I don't own it but if it did export as psd then I would most certainly buy it.

----------


## meleeguy

I have a sheet of trees that includes hills that must be drawn in the proper order, but I want the hills to have different 'effects' than the trees.  I could create a 'trees before' sheet etc but some tree sets are in front of some hills and behind others in a nearly continous band that I like.

I think you need 'sub sheet lists" that can have other effects that combine with the current sheet using various blending options.

Sorry if someone already covered this, or there is another way to do this in CC3 that I haven't come across yet.

Regards,
-meleeguy

----------


## ProFantasy

> I have a sheet of trees that includes hills that must be drawn in the proper order, but I want the hills to have different 'effects' than the trees.  I could create a 'trees before' sheet etc but some tree sets are in front of some hills and behind others in a nearly continous band that I like.
> 
> I think you need 'sub sheet lists" that can have other effects that combine with the current sheet using various blending options.
> 
> Sorry if someone already covered this, or there is another way to do this in CC3 that I haven't come across yet.
> 
> Regards,
> -meleeguy


When we first devised effects, we had to decide between a per entity or per sheet model. You've just hit the downside of the per-sheet method.

The per-sheet model has the advantage of simplicity, ease of use and redraw speed, but lacks the range of possibilities of the per-entity model.

----------


## meleeguy

If I may ask, I'm interested in what program structure issues (if that is the case) are holding you back since my proposal is algorithmically feasible and to our advantage to see resolved, if possible.

Is it file format related?

Although I am a professional programmer of over 20 years, my interest here is as a hobbyist and I realize you're smart folks who have been on the problem for years.

----------


## loydb

UI Enhancement - something that indicates whether the "Symbols Choose Their Own Layer" is active, preferably with a toggle switch. I constantly forget to reset it.

----------


## ProFantasy

> If I may ask, I'm interested in what program structure issues (if that is the case) are holding you back since my proposal is algorithmically feasible and to our advantage to see resolved, if possible.
> 
> Is it file format related?
> 
> Although I am a professional programmer of over 20 years, my interest here is as a hobbyist and I realize you're smart folks who have been on the problem for years.


There are no algorithmic issues. We had a straight choice. Including both options would massively and disproportionately increase the difficulty of managing effects, and the speed at which they rendered, as well as requiring much more programming and significant entity database changes.

Incidentally, we do have a developers 'tool kit and mail list, although it's pretty dead at the moment.

----------


## Lwaxana

I'm not sure if this has already been suggested, but it would be nice to be able to grab the map with the mouse and move it around instead of having to use the scroll bar. Would make it a lot easier for large maps to navigate in.

----------


## RPMiller

> I'm not sure if this has already been suggested, but it would be nice to be able to grab the map with the mouse and move it around instead of having to use the scroll bar. Would make it a lot easier for large maps to navigate in.


Have you tried the Pan command?

----------


## Lwaxana

Yup, but it's just not something that speeds things up. I also tend to lose overview with it. Plus, it isn't really precise enough, at least not for someone as clumsy as me. 

I'm not overly bothered about it, it would just be nice to have.

----------


## RPMiller

Yea, I have to agree. The best panning mechanic I've found has been MapTool's right click drag. It is so intuitive that I keep finding myself trying to do it in other applications all the time.

----------


## languard

Clear and concise documentation on the file format, SDK, and macros.  I'm a programmer, and I want to get involved in xp and macro development...but yeesh, it's like pulling teeth trying to find all the info I need.

----------


## RPMiller

You may also be interested to know that there is an email list set up specifically for programming:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cc2-dev-l/

And another specifically for macros:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CC2-Macros/

----------


## ProFantasy

Please do keep posting feature suggestions.

----------


## deanatglobe

Symbol Organization is a problem.  It would rock if symbols had tags and could be searched by that tag.

I second the request for other line styles, Google Sketchup is a good example of a vector program that has cool sketchy line styles.

I am starting to use CC3 and tools a lot as I am running a campaign for the first time in about 10 years, so I am sure I will think of more  :Wink: 

Dean

----------


## pengod

As a photoshop user who has just started trying CC3 I have to say that the gradient tool is definately missing. It is an option in FT I note but can't find it anywhere in CC3.

Other things would be noise & Cloud render. This are used to produce many map styles, they create textures and depth within a 2D image which a tileable fill pattern simply can't offer.

----------


## andydragon

I'd like to see another 'new map' command which would take a PNG file and use that as the background for a map and pick the size of the map from the PNG file (not tiled, but use the PNG as the entire background).

----------


## ProFantasy

> I'd like to see another 'new map' command which would take a PNG file and use that as the background for a map and pick the size of the map from the PNG file (not tiled, but use the PNG as the entire background).


How would it determine (straightforwardly) what dimensions to make the map? PNGs have pixel dimensions, maps are in a variety of units?

----------


## Davros01

Photo Realistic - I would like to see the FT Pro merged into CC3 so that its easy to make photo realistic maps in CC3.  Thats the one thing that photoshop seems to have over CC3 to me.  Otherwise, I am a devout CC3 user.

Marc

----------


## MadCartographer

I have a suggestion.  Text along a curve.  This needs better handeling.  Give the users options on the direction of the text.  It only goes 1 way.  I recently needed it to go the other way.  I had to do it manually, 1 letter at a time to get it the direction I needed.

CC3 is a great product, I'd never use another product.
Thanks ProFantasy!

----------


## Felonius

The A#1 Feature CC3 needs: 

Previewing of fill textures when adjusting object properties.

----------


## steelstiletto

It would be nice to be able to add effects to layers instead of sheets, so that objects that are on other sheets can be changed at once. I actually thought that was what layers were for in the beginning, but now I don't see a use for them at all.

----------


## Wonko the Sane

#1 on my wishlist is for lighting effects to render correctly when multiple passes are required to export a .jpg or .png image.

See what I mean here: http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...orting-to-.jpg

----------


## Wonko the Sane

#2 on the wishlist is for bevels to render correctly when an entity below it has a blur or glow effect (or some textures) applied. As it is, I always end up with a million little triangles along the bevelled entity's edge.

----------


## davidwilsoon

> Ooo, and use the Centre Mouse to zoom in an out! That would be soooooooooo useful!


I think overall unifying the drawing conventions added by CD3 and DD3, etc, would be a good idea overall.

----------


## GDelilah

Hi,
I'd like to see the ability in CC3 to zoom into a view, save that view as a seperate map, and them be able to work on that map in more detail.
GDelilah

----------


## tronos76

Definitely improve redraw speeds. Also, I find that I get "not responding' messages when turning on sheet effects. Subsequently I've started using photoshop as it's bullet proof. A shame really as I've used profantasy for years but there just seems to be a cieling on the size of maps I can produce until speed becomes a major issue.

----------


## bloodymage

I just want it to work!

----------


## OldGuy

> I just want it to work!


Works great for me.

----------


## Joshua

> I just want it to work!


What's not working?

----------


## GSEC

Deleted by user who was told he wasn't smart enough, or just too lazy, to learn the software.

----------


## Arkidemis

> Looks like it's been a few years, and a couple CC iterations, since anyone posted in this thread, so watch out for zombie suggestions. 
> 
> Dedicate mouse scroll wheel to zoom.  I think this one is a zombie. Add the _File/Close_ command to close the current drawing without closing the program.Use a cursor instead of  cross-hairs/box or, at least, give users the option to choose one or the other.Reverse the command-selection order to select where/what and then choose a command to apply to the selection.  For an old fart with poor eyesight and shaky fingers, this is probably *the* most important issue.Add  the  _Edit/Delete_ command.Rewrite the manual and quick start guide for CC3+.  Telling users the basics are the same as in previous versions isn't helpful when a new user has no idea what the basics are. Create a series of 6-8 minute videos for new users. Use voice-over and a script rather than real-time audio.Define non-standard terms such as _Overland Mapping_, etc.
> 
> 
> That's it for now.


In response to number 7 there is a YouTube series that helped me get started. I think they had it linked on the splash screen of CC3+ when you first open the program.

----------


## waldronate

I am not an official ProFantasy representative, but many of these are common questions and concerns. Some notes:

1. The scroll wheel does zoom. Clicking and dragging on the center mouse wheel pans around the screen if selected in the options.

2. CC3+ is built on a CAD engine from the 1990s with a whole lot of customization. One of the limitations of this engine is that it needs a drawing and a window on that drawing open at all times, even if it's just an empty one. You can see this if you try to use the close box on the active window (it tells you "You cannot close the only window on your drawing").

3. The cursor issue is another item from the product's heritage. I do agree that the single-line crosshair cursor and XOR drawing for cursors do not mix terribly well with today's high-resolution and high-color displays. It's on the wish list of things to fix, but I'm not sure how high it's going to get on the priority list in the near future.

4. The action-object mode of interaction with the software is another heritage element for the software that would require a significant amount of product modification to effect. The official statement appears to be "do the tutorials, you'll get used to it". I'm not sure that it's a great answer, but putting in the time to do the training does seem to work for many people.

The product does offer an object-action mode (Tools>>Options, "Enable left button preselect"), but this mode isn't at all what most people want. In a piece of software PowerPoint or other common Windows drawing programs, you will select the thing(s) that you want affect and then you are presented with visual feedback elements like handles and cursor changes that you can use to perform direct manipulation (e.g. move, scale, rotate) of the selected objects. The left-button preselect mode in CC3 allows you to select objects and then perform the operation, but there are no handles to do direct manipulation of those objects. Even when left-button preselect is used, there are still many commands that ignore pre-selection and ask to entities to work with.

5. See Edit>>Erase. If you're using the left-button preselect operation, Edit>>Erase works in the manner I think that you're expecting. If left-button preselect is off, you'll need to select the Edit>>Erase command, select the items to erase, the right-click and select "Do It" to finish the command.

6. ProFantasy is a relatively small company and seems to be focused on product updates and new content. They do offer a "Tome of Ultimate Mapping" product that goes in-depth on most aspects of the software. CC3+ was intended as an enhanced version of CC3, which is why the documentation may reference earlier versions. I do admit that I haven't looked at the documentation in some years, however...

7. As Arkidemis points out, there are quite a few tutorial videos out there on the internet. They are not implemented in-product as a scripted elements, however. I'm not sure that in-product scripting is feasible at this stage in the product development.

8. I do agree that a comprehensive glossary in the base product would be a nice addition.

----------


## GSEC

Deleted by user.

----------


## waldronate

They do get to ProFantasy, but the best place for quick and official response for suggestions to ProFantasy is probably at their official web site. Some folks do like to try to help out if possible in the local context. I apologize if I was being offensive or butting in where I was not wanted.

----------

