# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > General and Miscellaneous Mapping >  Book Maps.

## delgondahntelius

The book is close to completion and I'm working on the maps, I believe we are just using three of them, but I finished the first of those and thought I'd post it up and maybe post the others as WIPs to get a little feedback.

The first one isn't supposed to have any cities or towns, cause its wilderness. There isn't a scale, because there wasn't really a need or call for it. And yes, the sea and cliff names are no joke. 

I would name the second and tertiary rivers but there isn't a need for it. Hmm... that's about it, what do ya'll think about it? 



Oh, this map and anything else I put in here is copyrighted.

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## Steel General

I think this is great Delgo! 

The more of your maps that I see, the greater appreciation I'm beginning to have for the "hand-drawn" style. Doubt I'll ever "go over to the dark side", but hey you never know.  :Smile:

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## delgondahntelius

Well, when it comes to book/novel fantasy maps it seems to be the standard. Since most novels are B/W print, hand drawn is probably the logical choice in such a market...

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## mmmmmpig

the textures are beautiful

nice stuff

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## Ascension

This is some of the best inkwork I've ever seen, you are truly a master, rock on man.

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## ravells

That is truly lovely! I'm very jealous!!!

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## delgondahntelius

Thanks ya'll ... I should have said that this one is 100% digital in PS .... didn't ink this, but the jungle brushes were drawn and scanned in, from my SEP entry as you might have noticed...

My favorite part of the map is the Volcano tho.... it really looks like it might be on fire...  :Very Happy:

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## Gandwarf

It looks amazing! I love the hand drawn map style that is used for most book maps. 
The only thing I don't really care for is the compass thingy in the right corner.

What book are you working on anyway?

(Repped)

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## delgondahntelius

My wife and I are writers, and its our book... and so close to completion we can taste it! And then its off to the printers. We run our own publishing company, and this will be our first fantasy novel.... the first run is only going to be 500-1000 copies so its nothing huge... but hopefully it will be after it comes out!  :Very Happy: 

The compass is actually the weapon the heroine uses in the book, which I drew in color and then converted to greyscale... A long hafted falchion named Leafgârd. Thanks for the compliment and the rep!  :Very Happy:

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## mmmmmpig

when it is published, you will have to let us know how to acquire it

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## delgondahntelius

Definitely. If Amazon's requirements for selling through them weren't so steep, we'd do it through them as well as selling them from the website... but we will have it available there at the website. (The website isn't all that great... I designed it using dreamweaver) I'll let you know as soon as we get it  :Very Happy: 

It's part one of a trilogy. And... it's goood....  :Very Happy:

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## Gandwarf

> My wife and I are writers, and its our book... and so close to completion we can taste it! And then its off to the printers. We run our own publishing company, and this will be our first fantasy novel.... the first run is only going to be 500-1000 copies so its nothing huge... but hopefully it will be after it comes out! 
> 
> The compass is actually the weapon the heroine uses in the book, which I drew in color and then converted to greyscale... A long hafted falchion named Leafgârd. Thanks for the compliment and the rep!


Can you give short description what the book is about? I am writing a fantasy novel myself so I am very interested. And no, not to steal your ideas  :Razz: 
(finishing book 2 right now of the first trilogy - my book is in Dutch as that is my native language)

Also, how do you write a book with two people? I want to write a fantasy story with my fiancee as well, but I am not sure how to make it work. Do you both write different chapters or characters?

Oh, and congrats on your soon to make 1000th post  :Wink:

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## delgondahntelius

I'm doing this one as a wip, its taking a little bit to get done. This is digital and I decided to work on it at 300% of the size it will have to be... so its 13.875x22.875 inches @ 300dpi. The wips I'll show will be at 33% of that. 

I can't/don't want to get into too many specifics (that would give stuff away!) but you should know that this these two worlds are actually separate. (one way is to see it as a before and after picture)... the other major point is that they are disc worlds. (more like a saucer) with a ring of mountains encircling the edges. So the oceans don't connect or wrap around to the other side. 

I laid down the edges, and the oceans, gave those water ripples along the coasts. Put in all the mountains and mountain ranges. They still need to be fleshed out and cropped, so that will be what comes next. 

The good thing is that there won't be hardly any labels on it, there won't be a need for much detail on the map. That makes me grateful .. and keeps the work down. No scale either, but to give you an idea... its about 23000 miles along the diameter of the circle... 


WOOOT! ... 1000 posts!!!  :Very Happy:

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## delgondahntelius

> Can you give short description what the book is about? I am writing a fantasy novel myself so I am very interested. And no, not to steal your ideas 
> (finishing book 2 right now of the first trilogy - my book is in Dutch as that is my native language)
> 
> Also, how do you write a book with two people? I want to write a fantasy story with my fiancee as well, but I am not sure how to make it work. Do you both write different chapters or characters?
> 
> Oh, and congrats on your soon to make 1000th post


Let's see.... I've been sitting here for longer than I need to, trying to write a short summary. BUT I CAN'T!!! ... there is just so much I want to go into. SOOO, I will get my wife to write one up, she's the one in charge of writing a summary anyway for the back cover, this will give her a reason to get motivated about it. Fair enough? I think I'd just muck it up and give away too much.

As for writing together. The world was my little brain child... the gods, the places, the races. My campaign world for the last 23 years with enough history and color to choke a bull wyvern. She wrote a fantasy romance novel based on this world. When it was evident that we were going to be able to publish a book, this is the story we chose. Originally it was just going to be her name on the book, but after the process of editing and rewriting, I had put so much of my style in it as well, it became a joint effort. 

Funny thing is, I never thought I would be able to write with someone else, but the more we worked together, the better it got. I pretty much write all the scenes that involve battle and action, she writes the rest. For this book, I've written the prologue and several chapters involving side characters. 

It's kinda hard to explain how we do it. We work best though in the editing process... I read the story and she edits as I prattle on. 

?? make any sense at all?

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## Gandwarf

Writing a good, short summary for a back cover takes skill, so I am very interested to see the result  :Smile: 

So your stories are taking place in a campaign world you have been adding to for 23 years. That's certainly going to add depth to the stories. Sometimes I read a novel and can't get rid of the feeling the world seems slapped together. With a world you have been working on for so long this shouldn't be a problem. The actual problem might be you have some much information you want to share with your reader the story gets bogged down  :Smile: 

As for writing the book together: yes, your way makes sense. What I have discussed with my fiancee is something similar. But with me doing the editing as my grasp of (the Dutch) language is superior to hers (not to mention I have been an editor for a couple of years  :Wink: 

I am interested to see where you are going with those new WIP.

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## delgondahntelius

Aye... time and again I've had to stop and make sure things make sense, because i'm so familiar with the world, I write sometimes as if the reader should already know what/who I'm talking about... many times I have had to cut chunks out of the story because the history and flavor just don't move the plot... colorful, yes... but not good for story development...

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## Gandwarf

> Aye... time and again I've had to stop and make sure things make sense, because i'm so familiar with the world, I write sometimes as if the reader should already know what/who I'm talking about... many times I have had to cut chunks out of the story because the history and flavor just don't move the plot... colorful, yes... but not good for story development...


The double-edged sword of not wanting to confuse your reader, but not wanting to give away too much either. As you want to keep them hooked and coming back for more  :Razz:

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## Steel General

@Delgo & Gandwarf - I envy you both at even attempting to write a novel (with or without someone else). Ever more so if you're anywhere close to publishing. I've been told many times that I have some talent as a writer, but I just can't imagine trying to write a novel. I get bogged down after 4 or 5 pages  :Smile:

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## delgondahntelius

SG ... Ya quit too soon. That's the hardest part.... the rest is all downhill from there... just get through that first chapter of the story and the rest will just fall into place  :Very Happy:

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## delgondahntelius

Here's what she sent me:




> Existence is a fragile concept. One twist of fate can end it for anyone of us or even alter it beyond recognition. So why do some dream of dragons and elves or battles fought with sword and spear, while others hold on to the existence around them; the reality they can see, feel, and touch? Was it a twist of fate? Did we once belong to a world that some only dream of? Annapernalia lives in a world where humans are the ones dreamed of and elves, gnomes, dwarves and the like all wake to an existence without them. But she remembers more than most. She knows this reality is not as it should be, and she must find a way to bring the humans back to where they belong; before existence becomes the dream.



So maybe that gives you an idea...
(In a world.... I keep thinking of that movie announcer guy... lol)

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## Steel General

> SG ... Ya quit too soon. That's the hardest part.... the rest is all downhill from there... just get through that first chapter of the story and the rest will just fall into place


*OFF TOPIC* Just in case you're interested, here are some things I posted over ar CBG

The White Wolves

The Prize

and some others @ PlotStorming

A Day In The Life

A Father Takes Notice/A New Beginning (2 parts)

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## Gandwarf

> Here's what she sent me:
> 
> 
> So maybe that gives you an idea...
> (In a world.... I keep thinking of that movie announcer guy... lol)


Hmm, my 2 cents: it is well written but a bit vague. The text does feel like a movie announcement... but then you have pictures supporting it. I have no idea what to expect of the story yet.
The concept of humans being the "fantasy creatures" *is* cool by the way. 





> *OFF TOPIC* Just in case you're interested, here are some things I posted over ar CBG
> 
> The White Wolves
> 
> The Prize
> 
> and some others @ PlotStorming
> 
> A Day In The Life
> ...


Obviously Steel General you are a skilled mapper, but you can also write  :Smile: 
I agree with the comments on the first story. The stuff feels like it has all been done before in the fantasy genre, but it's still interesting and well written.

Oh, and I noticed you played Ultima Online. For which I had to rep you  :Razz: 

Anyway, back to the normal thread I think, before we stray too far.

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## delgondahntelius

We'll work on the summary. It was the first go. Actually harder than I thought to write a summary, never did one for my own book before.... kinda weird too.

Ok, here is another wip... mind you its still rough, and will be tightened up... just added the forest areas and some crusty rock to the outer mountains.

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## Steel General

@Gandwarf - Thanks for taking the time to read that stuff. I agree "The White Wolves" is very stereotypical fantasy, but I wrote it for fun.

@Delgo - Very cool, though it looks like some of your forests got "cut off", or are they only partially finished?

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## Ascension

*Off Topic*
UO. I hope SG wasn't one of those PKs who kept killing me every time I mined some iron ore.

*On Topic*
Sweet as usual.

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## delgondahntelius

Ya it's all partial right now.. I"m just m aking the placements, i'll be going back in and outline the forests, fixing the mountains so it doesn't look like I used a pattern, etc... The B&W file however has surprised me at a whopping 305.mb working file... I'm starting to overclock my scratch disk... that last image I had to resize the image before I saved it to web, then UNDO.... I may have to cut it down to 200% .... didn't expect a B&W greyscale to top out that much.... 

I'm going over to read some of your stuff now  :Very Happy: 

Addendum:
Ya know. I've been lurking at PS ever since I signed up here. I think I might just post the prologue... maybe a an expcerpt or two there, see what the masses have to say about it.... could be interesting.

-- One of the reasons I don't post there is because (you can ask my other half) that when it comes to writing and critiquing written work is that I am critical, brutal and direct. Not out of meaness, but because that is how I want my work to critiqued. Unfortunately, my critiques aren't usually accepted that well in the writing community, so I quit doing that a long time ago. Now I don't critique other's work unless they are some sado-masichist who likes it when someone takes what they've created and proceeds with a blunt hatchet and red pen  :Very Happy: .

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## Steel General

> *Off Topic* UO. I hope SG wasn't one of those PKs who kept killing me every time I mined some iron ore.


Only if you were doing unattended, scripted mining.  :Very Happy: 


@Delgo - Those are the only things I ever posted there, never got much of a response, so I stopped.

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## jfrazierjr

> Aye... time and again I've had to stop and make sure things make sense, because i'm so familiar with the world, I write sometimes as if the reader should already know what/who I'm talking about... many times I have had to cut chunks out of the story because the history and flavor just don't move the plot... colorful, yes... but not good for story development...



That did not stop Tolkien... and we all know how that turned out...

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## Gandwarf

> That did not stop Tolkien... and we all know how that turned out...


Well, Tolkien's world obviously has lots of depth and flavor. But there's also a pretty fast moving and still epic story I think.

Now take Robert Jordan: in his later books he gets really bogged down, because of all the information he wants to share with his readers and lots of it is not really that relevant. I think one of his books took like 800 pages to describe the events of one day. That's bad  :Razz: 
Still I think the Wheel of Time is one of the best fantasy series.

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## delgondahntelius

The thing about Tolkien is that they wanted him to cut stuff out... but, how do you tell a man like tolkien he needed to cut this or that out of the story? .... exactly. So that's why it stayed like that. 

WoT was something I couldn't get into... and I tried, I promise I did... but as you pointed out Gand, he can bog down a story like nobody's business. 

Now ... David Eddings... there's a man (and his wife Leigh) who can spin a tale! .... Belgariad and the Mallorean are together, the best series out there IMHO. 

@SG ... Stopped by and read some of your stuff, and honestly I don't think you should give writing up. Like mapping... the more you practice, the better you get, so keep hacking away. Who cares if you get a response over there are not..!!  :Smile:  Keep posting them .... you sling enough mud at a wall, some of it is bound to stick sooner or later...  (teflon walls excluded of course!)
I don't lurk over there hardly at all (i think my time logged in total is ... under an hour at least) so I don't know how their C&C process goes, maybe they just don't lay into a story and tell you what is really going on. To me, that's the only way to improve, find people who aren't going to hold back what they think cause you might be offended or have your feelings hurt, and get to the nut-cutting... 

But don't give up! .... NEVER give up NEVER surrender!  :Very Happy:

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## Gandwarf

> Now ... David Eddings... there's a man (and his wife Leigh) who can spin a tale! .... Belgariad and the Mallorean are together, the best series out there IMHO.


David Eddings used to be my favorite author. I read all his books between ages 10 - 16. His style is really simple and he can spin a tale, like you said. I loved it.

Now I am more grown up and unfortunately think the books are a bit "childish". Also I realise the Belgariad and Mallorean contain a lot of the same. Especially the characters. But it was a *lot* of fun to read back in the day. 

I didn't like his later books. I couldn't even finish the first book about the thief Althalus. Now it's not as bad as Terry Brooks' first books. Those were a blatant ripoff of Tolkien  :Wink: 

Oh, and Terry Goodkind's last book in the Sword of Truth series was a pile of ****. Man, I felt ripped off  :Smile:

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## Valarian

> David Eddings used to be my favorite author. I read all his books between ages 10 - 16. His style is really simple and he can spin a tale, like you said. I loved it.
> 
> Now I am more grown up and unfortunately think the books are a bit "childish". Also I realise the Belgariad and Mallorean contain a lot of the same. Especially the characters. But it was a *lot* of fun to read back in the day.


I'm the same. I got in to Eddings' writing before he owned up to collaborating with his wife. I still enjoy the Belgariad, and the books about Belgarath and Polgara, but the others are basically the same. The Mallorean rehashed the Belgariad story and the Elenium/Tamuli characters used the all same archetypes. I'm afraid Eddings draws too heavily on the "stock" story and character types.

I've grown quite fond of Janny Wurts' writing, her characters have depth and motivations. I think her Mistwraith and Wars of Light and Shadow series beats the Belgariad/Mallorean hands down.

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## delgondahntelius

Ya, it was somewhat the same but I guess I'm a kid at heart  :Very Happy:  

Goodkind and Brooks I've never really liked, I read Elfstones of Shanarra<sp?> when I was in junior high, I've never picked up another brooks novel again. 
Speaking of piles of ****, Paolini put out his third novel.... I couldn't get through his first one it was such trash. 

I guess I'm too old school when it comes to fantasy ... I liked the DL novels... until the authors thought it was a good idea to start just killing characters and then bringing them back and then .... bleh... But I still read my Conan stories by REH .. I still read the Elric saga which I love.... Though I read the Drizzt series and Love Salvatore's books for the most part.... I f#$%^ hate Drizzt.... with a passion.... that's a whole other long story  :Very Happy: 

 :Laughing:

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## Gandwarf

> Speaking of piles of ****, Paolini put out his third novel.... I couldn't get through his first one it was such trash.


Did you see the first movie? Man, that was really bad. I didn't like the books either. They are written in a very simple and childish style. 
But hey, he is a published and even succesfull author so he must be doing something right  :Razz:

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## torstan

Beautfiul maps, and love the coastlines. They must have taken a while.

I'll try to rep you for the maps and the bravery of taking on a novel. That's no mean feat!

On the second map, you need to work on the edges of the mountain areas. It's a shame to have such a lovely hand drawn style and then to have such an obvious computer cut edge on the pattern. It breaks the impression of hand drawn images.

Edit: Nuts, need to spread some rep around...

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## delgondahntelius

> Did you see the first movie? Man, that was really bad. I didn't like the books either. They are written in a very simple and childish style. 
> But hey, he is a published and even succesfull author so he must be doing something right


Just because you put a pile of dog**** in a bag and mark it 'fresh fudge' by no means magically makes it fudge... it's still **** ....  :Very Happy: 




> Beautfiul maps, and love the coastlines. They must have taken a while.
> 
> I'll try to rep you for the maps and the bravery of taking on a novel. That's no mean feat!
> 
> On the second map, you need to work on the edges of the mountain areas. It's a shame to have such a lovely hand drawn style and then to have such an obvious computer cut edge on the pattern. It breaks the impression of hand drawn images.
> 
> Edit: Nuts, need to spread some rep around...


Thanks tor... found I'm having to bash people in the face with my +3 bucket of hot, warm and fuzzy rep. more and more often these days.. go find some maps worth of tor's mighty reputatoin!!...

Ya... for now i'm just putting in the masks and patterns ... I'll be going back to clean up the edges .... I started to do it after I got the mountains down... and then realized that it was goign to take a while.... so i'll save it till when I get all my ducks in a row, as it were  :Very Happy:

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## NymTevlyn

How did you accomplish the coastline "waves" around the landmass?

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## Karro

> Now ... David Eddings... there's a man (and his wife Leigh) who can spin a tale! .... Belgariad and the Mallorean are together, the best series out there IMHO. 
> But don't give up! .... NEVER give up NEVER surrender!





> David Eddings used to be my favorite author. I read all his books between ages 10 - 16. His style is really simple and he can spin a tale, like you said. I loved it.
> 
> Now I am more grown up and unfortunately think the books are a bit "childish". Also I realise the Belgariad and Mallorean contain a lot of the same. Especially the characters. But it was a *lot* of fun to read back in the day. 
> 
> I didn't like his later books. I couldn't even finish the first book about the thief Althalus. Now it's not as bad as Terry Brooks' first books. Those were a blatant ripoff of Tolkien


I was going to mention _The Redemption of Althalus_ myself.  Someone got it for me (knowing I had enjoyed the Belgariad and Mallorean back in the day, though looking back, I read those not a moment too soon, as even then I thought something was odd about how the Mallorean was _exactly_ the same as Belgariad...).  Anyway... I didn't make it half way through before I put it down and didn't regret not picking it back up.  I found I just didn't care about the characters or what happened to them.  It was eerie to me how every sing "good guy" character--whether a central character or a peripheral character--had the _exact same_ "wry" sense of humor... only the humor wasn't really wry, and it wasn't really humor either.  The more I thought about it, the more I realized they were all the same character, just with different names and genders.  Oh well...

Just thought I'd throw in the whole reason I'm here at Cartographer's Guild is the same: I like to think of myself as a writer.  I'd been writing a book for years, and working on the world the story takes place in for years as well (I even have several hand-drawn maps from back at the beginning).  I've got this old shoe box that used to hold all my handwritten notes and materials related to my story and my world... but eventually the volume of stuff outgrew the shoebox.  I'd been transferring some of the notes over to the computer around the same time that I was entering into the final third of the first book.

Then... when I lost a lot of the type-written material, and some of the handwritten material, through a series of computer-related misfortunes (first a hard-drive crash, and later a stolen laptop, along with the filled notebook with the laptop)... I decided to stop, take stock of it all, and start from scratch with a fresh mind and a fresh perspective.

A fresh perspective, of course, meant brand new maps... and if something's worth doing, it's worth doing right, so that's why I came here!

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## delgondahntelius

> How did you accomplish the coastline "waves" around the landmass?


Select all the water areas, and on a new layer
Select>modify>contract 5
Edit>stroke>3
Select>modify>contract 4
Edit>stroke>2
Select>modify>contract 4
Edit>stroke>2
Select>modify>contract 6
Edit>stroke>1

Then Filter>Noise>Add Noise (amount: 250.0 Gaussian)
Ctrl + F run filter again
Filter>Noise>Median (1 pixel)

And that's it....

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## kpadua

delgondahntelius>

Your latest maps are wonderful.  I am such a fan of pen and ink hand drawn maps. I specifically make a search when I am on this forum to search for all the hand drawn pen and ink.  You have great talent.  Please keep those coming.  I don't see anything to change on your current map.  I guess I should stop drooling now.  :Laughing:

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## delgondahntelius

@kpadua Thank you very much, I appreciate the compliments.

Ok, I went in and touched up the mountains to make them appear less like a patter overlay and more like mountains drawn in ... not the greatest of jobs, but I'm tired of looking at mountains... lol

Went in and redid the forest and added jungle.... 

I took out the two large circular land borders out... I didn't add dark line connecting the land together.... is it noticable? Should I go back and and trace and outline along the edge to conect land pieces together?

I printed it out at the size it will be in the book, and I'm fairly happy with it, so many things aren't noticeable at the level and that's a good thing. So that the map isn't too busy I'm going to forgo putting in rivers and other features such as swamps, deserts etc. Nor are any cities going on the map. So all that is left really on this is some text ....

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## Gandwarf

> I printed it out at the size it will be in the book, and I'm fairly happy with it, so many things aren't noticeable at the level and that's a good thing. So that the map isn't too busy I'm going to forgo putting in rivers and other features such as swamps, deserts etc. Nor are any cities going on the map. So all that is left really on this is some text ....


Still looking great. The maps do look a bit "empty" but as you said this is probably a good thing for a book sized map. Is that also the reason why you didn't add any cities? The first map in this thread didn't have any cities either... just wondering.

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## delgondahntelius

Well, I decided i'm not going to use the first map I posted. It's has elements in it which are not in the story, in fact, only a small section of that map is in the actual story at all, so I felt it wasn't a very strong map and needed to be ditched. 

As far as cities go, The lands are wild and chaotic throughout the book, and there is only one town in which any of the story takes place. I can't really go into all the aspects of the story line, but putting any of the cities on there for this book is overkill and nothing but clutter. 

Oh ... and I decided to post up the first prologue to the book over at plotstorming. You will have to have an account on the forum as its in the private section http://www.plotstorming.com/forum/in...p?topic=1705.0 ... That should give you some idea as to what the book is about. And hopefull that prologue does its job and makes you want to read more.  :Very Happy:

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## jfrazierjr

Very pretty map.  Love the Volcano. 

You need tree trunks... but you already knew I was going to say that didn't ya.

Oh yea.... wheres your SCALE???? :Razz:  :Razz:  :Razz:

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## delgondahntelius

@Jojo
Thanks, the volcano is my favorite part of the map... it just looked like it was actually spewing ash and smoke. 

What is a scale?  :Very Happy: 
--------------------

SG was right, over at PS, they aren't very active, or don't like to read that much. So I decided that I'd post the prologue here as well for ya'll to read. Mainly looking to see if you understand the story, perceive it as it is happening, and that it wants you to keep reading more. Feel free to PM your thoughts if you don't want to post them here. 

Thanks....

prologue_AtD_10052008.doc

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## Gandwarf

> @Jojo
> Thanks, the volcano is my favorite part of the map... it just looked like it was actually spewing ash and smoke. 
> prologue_AtD_10052008.doc


Man, I though the vulcano was part of the second map. Thanks for making me search for half an hour, before I realised it was in the first map  :Razz:

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## Gandwarf

Anyway, I have read your prologue. You may be onto something here: it is well written (it's certainly not amateur) and it got me hooked from the first few sentences. Which is definitely a good thing! 

I like the story that you are setting. I love the concept of the gods getting shut out and them apparantly wondering what happened to them.

Some criticism:

- I know it's a prologue, but I think there's too many names in those first six pages. It will confuse readers. It's not so bad that it distracted me, but it would not have been my choice (in my own novels I am trying to introduce new characters gently).

- This is really personal: I dislike fantasy books using standard races like orcs, elves and halflings. I think they should be restricted to Lord of the Rings  :Razz: 
You are creating something unique I think, so why use races that have been done SO much. But as I said this is really personal and many people won't be bothered by it or will even love it.

- Page 5, row 5: "Human" should be "Humans"?

- I don't like the groveling halfling servant of that evil god. He's pathetic and almost comical. Would an evil god allow such a creature in his presence? He might have specific reasons of course... which I don't know yet. For now I dislike it.
(in my own novels the bad guys don't allow weakness, they despise it and crush it)

--------

Having said this: I like the work and would have said so if I though otherwise. Those six pages are not enough for me to decide if this is a story I would want to read, but it is a very promising start. This is the quality I would expect of a novel bought in stores.

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## delgondahntelius

> Man, I though the vulcano was part of the second map. Thanks for making me search for half an hour, before I realised it was in the first map


 LOL... sorry about that, I might feature the volcano in another map later on.. 




> Some criticism:
> 
> - I know it's a prologue, but I think there's too many names in those first six pages. It will confuse readers. It's not so bad that it distracted me, but it would not have been my choice (in my own novels I am trying to introduce new characters gently).
> 
> - This is really personal: I dislike fantasy books using standard races like orcs, elves and halflings. I think they should be restricted to Lord of the Rings 
> You are creating something unique I think, so why use races that have been done SO much. But as I said this is really personal and many people won't be bothered by it or will even love it.
> 
> - Page 5, row 5: "Human" should be "Humans"?
> 
> ...


@names -- believe it or not, I took alot of the fantasy language out, and with 18 gods, the majority of which participate in the ongoing story, I needed to at least familiarize the reader with some of the names... mentioning them, but not actively participating  in the conversation. I am with you on trying to ease the reader into the story with minimal "fantasy jargon" shock... 
I dreaded having to write in how the universe around Azora works... the cosmology and make up ... but I got it done with two paragraphs and minimal nervous system damage...  :Wink: 

@Races... don't worry, there will be plenty of extra races for you ... that's just the start.. got to have staple fantasy icons somewhere tho  :Very Happy: 

@Pidgawidgeon .... Everyone hates him... but you had to like it when Zyphas just flat out killed him. And he keeps him around just for that purpose... Zyphas likes having a few such weaker underlings just for that specific purpose. He doesn't play an intrical part in the book, but he does have a purpose... 

I appreciate the criticism, I'm already considering the fantasy names issue... My wife also says thank you for the feedback, it is most welcome. We also thank you for the compliments as well... we at least know its headed in the right direction when we hear comments like that   :Very Happy:

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## Schley

Interesting maps overall, but I have a few crits that I think might help.

1. Consider the paper quality and size that you will be printing at. If your working at trade paperback size or smaller you may run into some resolution/ink bleed issues in the heavily textured areas. Less is more.

2. Try to introduce a bit more visual flavor into the textured areas. For instance; in the World Map image you have so many mountains illustrated at roughly the same size that the area seems flattened out rather than consisting of interesting peaks an valleys. The same goes for the forested areas. Maybe break them up a bit to add some visual interest.

3. Be careful with your cloning and pattern making otherwise the texture repetition can stand out like a sore thumb.

Hope these help and keep up the good work.  :Smile: 

Mike

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## Gandwarf

> @Pidgawidgeon .... Everyone hates him... but you had to like it when Zyphas just flat out killed him. And he keeps him around just for that purpose... Zyphas likes having a few such weaker underlings just for that specific purpose. He doesn't play an intrical part in the book, but he does have a purpose...


Hmm, to be honest I didn't like that either. I don't know, I thought it was annoying. Weakness breeds weakness  :Twisted: 

In my story that halfling - although I don't feature them - would probably have his throat ripped out. But not before his belly was sliced open and live rats were put in. And before that he would have had to watch his entire family tortured, abused and killed. Oh, and he certainly wouldn't have been brought back alive  :Razz:  They might have kept some of his female relatives as entertainment, though.

But hey, the wizards in my story aren't really that nice people.

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## delgondahntelius

Forgot the wip... here's the first label ... of the top world... there will be one in the middle... and one at the bottom... will also have some labels on the both worlds, some land some water.... 

Just wanted to know what you think of the first banner up there....


Ack wrong forest.... brb.

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## delgondahntelius

> Hmm, to be honest I didn't like that either. I don't know, I thought it was annoying. Weakness breeds weakness 
> 
> In my story that halfling - although I don't feature them - would probably have his throat ripped out. But not before his belly was sliced open and live rats were put in. And before that he would have had to watch his entire family tortured, abused and killed. Oh, and he certainly wouldn't have been brought back alive  They might have kept some of his female relatives as entertainment, though.
> 
> But hey, the wizards in my story aren't really that nice people.


That's not his domain... that's Talaszhar's ... don't worry... I've got plenty of evil... enough for the both of us...

and why not bring him back... so you can do it all over again... but you see how fast you can get it all done before he dies again... lol

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## Gandwarf

> That's not his domain... that's Talaszhar's ... don't worry... I've got plenty of evil... enough for the both of us...
> 
> and why not bring him back... so you can do it all over again... but you see how fast you can get it all done before he dies again... lol


Well, I never claimed I understood any of the gods  :Razz: 

There are no gods in my world. The wizards committed genocide on all the believers as they were not really compatible with their doctrine and all that.

I like the banner btw. Gotta sleep now.

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## delgondahntelius

Ok... got the right forest now.. .played with the banner because it was a bit out of whack.. added some effects to it .... let me know what ya'll tihnk

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## Gandwarf

> Ok... got the right forest now.. .played with the banner because it was a bit out of whack.. added some effects to it .... let me know what ya'll tihnk


It looks better, especially the banner (which I already thought was more than ok). 

The one thing that is starting to "bother" me is that this isn't really a map I would expect in a fantasy book. I don't understand why it looks like there are two maps in one. And I don't understand why there are no cities. But that's just because most fantasy books have a simple overland map with some cities and stuff. Don't get me wrong here, originality is always good. Just wondering...

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## Steel General

Love the second banner style Delgo.

Still working on reading your prologue, once I do I'll post my thoughts.

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## delgondahntelius

added the middle and bottom banners... oh joy. that didn't take long at all... not...

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## Gandwarf

> added the middle and bottom banners... oh joy. that didn't take long at all... not...


They look cool enough. So I never do pencil stuff, but how much time did you invest in this map so far?

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## delgondahntelius

Well.. this is all being done in Photoshop, I did the banners in Illustrator and then put them in via paste as smart objects. Time so far in this map... (Since I do have so many things going on at the moment I try to dedicate some time to it) Maybe eight hours so far. 

The symbols are mine that I scanned in from drawings. I'm doing it in greyscale cause its cheaper to print than color. 

The reason for no cities, is this isn't as much a map as it is artful representation of the current state of things for the denizens of my world. A visual aide if you will. Maybe that will give you a better idea of what I'm shooting for here. With this map anway.

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## Gandwarf

So originally you said you were going to do/use three maps...
The map you have been working on with the two worlds, does that count as the second map or the second and third map?

If it's the second, what's going to be in the third map?  :Razz:

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## delgondahntelius

Actually I decided not to use the first one I came up with, even though the volcano is so nice. So this is the first map.... I'll have two more location maps that detail the areas that the story unfolds in.

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## delgondahntelius

here is the final on the world map. hope its the final anyway...

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## mmmmmpig

I think a slightly stronger differentiation between the land and the water on this map kinda cartouche thingy would really make it jump up and kick some people in the jaw, thus making said jaws drop uncontrollably, potentially for day.  Of course it is late and I am hopped up on cold meds.  Great Stuff!!

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## Gandwarf

With the extra labelling I like it a lot. I don't mind that there aren't any cities anymore.

But you are going to put cities in the next two maps, right?  :Surprised:   :Wink: 

I am interested to see where you are going to take us.

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## Steel General

Continuing coolness!!

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## delgondahntelius

Map number 2 (actually three, but let's not get too technical) ... And, sorry Gandwarf... no cities... but the goblin caves near the eastern Mountain Border is sorta a city ... 

Anyway .. still have some labeling to do and what not... Thought I'd post this up and let ya'll have a look

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## Ascension

Love the perspective and the shadows.  Took me about 15 seconds to realize why that whited-out bit was whited out directly under "Crystal"...my brain must not have been turned on.

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## mmmmmpig

I have a few comments.  None are meant to hurt, so I hope I do not

I like the angle you take with this map.  The perspective is nice and has a kind of fresh feel to it. 

I think you line style for the river?/path? should be a mote crisper.  Plus it is not immediately clear whether it is a river or a path to me.  It looks great in the thumbnail, but when you zoom in it tends to be a bit fuzzy compared to the rest of the linework.

I think the same can be said for the mountain outlines. The thick soft line doesn't play very well with the intricate parquet type of pattern fill that you are using for the mountains.  I suggest trying something by hand instead of a pattern fill.  Your handwork is so good and prevalent in the forest areas... I think the mountains should get some similar hand work.

If you are going for a look that makes this map look as if it is done purely by hand, I would lose the fuzzy drop shadow and either crosshatch or do simple fills with a pure gray tone.  As it is it seems a little computer-y

I am really nit-picking here, so please take these comments with a grain of salt.  The map as is looks excellent and I would be hard-pressed to create something that would approach it in craft.  Keep at it!  This stuff is really top-notch!

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## delgondahntelius

> I have a few comments.  None are meant to hurt, so I hope I do not
> 
> I like the angle you take with this map.  The perspective is nice and has a kind of fresh feel to it. 
> 
> I think you line style for the river?/path? should be a mote crisper.  Plus it is not immediately clear whether it is a river or a path to me.  It looks great in the thumbnail, but when you zoom in it tends to be a bit fuzzy compared to the rest of the linework.
> 
> I think the same can be said for the mountain outlines. The thick soft line doesn't play very well with the intricate parquet type of pattern fill that you are using for the mountains.  I suggest trying something by hand instead of a pattern fill.  Your handwork is so good and prevalent in the forest areas... I think the mountains should get some similar hand work.
> 
> If you are going for a look that makes this map look as if it is done purely by hand, I would lose the fuzzy drop shadow and either crosshatch or do simple fills with a pure gray tone.  As it is it seems a little computer-y
> ...


2+3mPig.... this is the reason I post my maps up, I want honest opinion's and critique's, If I wanted my feelings placated, well, they have people you can pay for that.  :Very Happy:  So don't worry about hurting my feelings.

The river was something I was just testing out, I didn't much like it myself. As for the mountains... I was being lazy, and I just got caught... lol. But .. it is my hatchwork, if that makes a difference  :Very Happy:  

I'm still leaning toward keeping the shadow's however, I just like 'em  :Very Happy: ... I'll probably be losing the little goblin cave guy for something else... haven't figured out what just yet. 

Great post, great critique! ....  :Very Happy:

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## Gandwarf

I have to agree with the others, I like the perspective. The forests are done really well (although I think the forest in the south can use some more trunks on the eastside, like the big forest you have in the west). The crystal tower itself looks nice, but it's placement looks a bit weird to me right now (probably because of the white "glow" surrounding it). I don't really care for the skull thingy (the goblin caves?).

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## delgondahntelius

yep Goblin Caves, but not your ordinary goblins... nope... not by far...

here's the other wip with some changes.... let's see how this one flies...
\

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## mmmmmpig

I think this version is might tighter.  I like the edits you did very much.

A small touch that I think might help break up the forest patches a bit would be to add some of the heavy outline into the interior of the forest as well.  Kind of another level of forest texture.  

Again, this is a nit-pick from a nit-picker  :Smile:

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## Ascension

Those mountains look sooo much better now...sweetness.  I still can't look at the tower without thinking of the Christmas Poo from South Park...maybe I'm just really demented or maybe it needs to be more angular, I dunno.  :Smile:

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## RobA

Nice improvement on the mountains, Del!

The only suggestion I could make is that the outline weight is still a bit heavy... maybe if it tapered off rather than being blunt?

-Rob A>

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