# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Dungeon/Subterranean Mapping >  The Cave Labyrinth

## Amanda91

So, just started this one.

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## Amanda91

In order to have a sense of dept the darkest colour should be on the top or near the ground? I'm not sure of how this looks right now.

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## Adfor

I like the layout so far, Amanda, very pleasing to the eye.  You could add some simple line detailing; stalagmite/tites, ect and this one would stand out very nicely.  I think if you did some elevation work in there too, it would help to make it look not so streamlined, because caves certainly don't form quite so perfectly symmetrical.  :Razz:

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## Amanda91

> I like the layout so far, Amanda, very pleasing to the eye.  You could add some simple line detailing; stalagmite/tites, ect and this one would stand out very nicely.  I think if you did some elevation work in there too, it would help to make it look not so streamlined, because caves certainly don't form quite so perfectly symmetrical.


Which one does looks better?

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## Adfor

The first gets confusing because of the grey space in between caverns. I personally think the second one is more clearly viewable in terms of what is cavern, and what is background.

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## Amanda91

> The first gets confusing because of the grey space in between caverns. I personally think the second one is more clearly viewable in terms of what is cavern, and what is background.


A little update

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## Amanda91

I think its starting to get nice.

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## Adfor

> I think its starting to get nice.


Looking great! Keep it going!

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## Amanda91

Any cool cave elements I can use to fill it up? I'm bad at elements.

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## Amanda91

Last update before going to sleep, can anyone tell me how can I give the sensation that the map is going to a level bellow? I mean, like some narrow corridors are getting even deeper underground.

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## Amanda91

Need some serious feedback for this one so far, I'm running out of elements haha

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## RenflowerGrapx

Magical doors/shortcuts between the rooms?

More elevations and "pendences" ?

Some rooms can be really sneaky with vegetation as well. as I think the water sources might create dangerous musk and growing branches, hard to cross.
I also think you can try to test different textures with the floor.. to indicare different difficulties.

Some can bemore dry, some really rocky, some "marshy" and some really sloopy, as mud.

That's a first impression.

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## Amanda91

> Magical doors/shortcuts between the rooms?
> 
> More elevations and "pendences" ?
> 
> Some rooms can be really sneaky with vegetation as well. as I think the water sources might create dangerous musk and growing branches, hard to cross.
> I also think you can try to test different textures with the floor.. to indicare different difficulties.
> 
> Some can bemore dry, some really rocky, some "marshy" and some really sloopy, as mud.
> 
> That's a first impression.


How can I do those elevations and pendences? My idea originally was to create the illusion of going deeper into the dungeon, but I don't know how to do that.

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## Amanda91

Put some plants, I think it looks nice, I also think that I'll do a rework on some textures later.

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## RenflowerGrapx

> How can I do those elevations and pendences? My idea originally was to create the illusion of going deeper into the dungeon, but I don't know how to do that.





First off my honest apology for using part of your map. but as i'm not native english for me is sometimes very hard to explain.


I like your concept and I think that the hard time for you starts when your texture are TOO DARK.
My personal opinion, from my own experience, would suggest you to use a lighter texture.

Using black doesn't make the drawing darker. you might make so that the darkest color isn't the black. NEVER.

So you still have the opportunity to make the area darker.
As you see from the two palettes in the top corner, your lighter color (picked from your texture in the neutral area, not the higlighted rooms) is placed in my mid-dark palette.

So, in your case.. If you want to go darker, when going deeper i think the challenge is in to balance the light at your best.

If you start with a lighter color you will be able to make it darker as long you go trough the sessions of your dungeon, till the center.

I think also, you shoulnd't just keep a gradual shade, as you see in my sample, i tried to create different elevation using just a multiply and a screen layer, and applying different shades with the pressure of the pen.

If, you don't have a pen to draw, or you are not interested to handle the shades in this why, one option is to create a folder for the shadows and a folder for the lights.
On each folder you can have the usual layers with the blend you preferer as always, but you can play with opacity to simulate the pen pressure and add tiny details and interesting shades.

Also, i think that when the terrain goes very down, also the shadow dropped will be longer, as the source of light will be placed in different positions  :Very Happy: 

But this is another complex thing and i'm not even the right person to explain it, as i'm just an amateur and i never have studied, i just ..xperiment untill it looks ok to me. LOL

So... in short:

Try to start from a neautral medium lighted texture (or apply different trasparencies of light to your actual texture)
and add shadows, not going straight, but with a dinamic layout..
Have different eleation in the same room as well.. 


Try, if you wish, and let me know how it goes for you!
Hope this will help ya!

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## RenflowerGrapx

I think, once you setted all the elevation for the individual rooms, you can add a final round of shadows and lights to create that effect of "going deeper" till the center.

IDK, let me know!

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## RenflowerGrapx

> Put some plants, I think it looks nice, I also think that I'll do a rework on some textures later.


YAY! I think the mossy areas are great and gave an additional touch to fill the whole thing

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## Amanda91

> First off my honest apology for using part of your map. but as i'm not native english for me is sometimes very hard to explain.
> 
> 
> I like your concept and I think that the hard time for you starts when your texture are TOO DARK.
> My personal opinion, from my own experience, would suggest you to use a lighter texture.
> 
> Using black doesn't make the drawing darker. you might make so that the darkest color isn't the black. NEVER.
> 
> So you still have the opportunity to make the area darker.
> ...


This is awesome, I'll try it.

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## Amanda91

> YAY! I think the mossy areas are great and gave an additional touch to fill the whole thing


Another update.

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## Amanda91

> First off my honest apology for using part of your map. but as i'm not native english for me is sometimes very hard to explain.
> 
> 
> I like your concept and I think that the hard time for you starts when your texture are TOO DARK.
> My personal opinion, from my own experience, would suggest you to use a lighter texture.
> 
> Using black doesn't make the drawing darker. you might make so that the darkest color isn't the black. NEVER.
> 
> So you still have the opportunity to make the area darker.
> ...


I tried it with my pen but I wasn't able to reach the same result you did, mine looks dull.

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## Amanda91

> YAY! I think the mossy areas are great and gave an additional touch to fill the whole thing


I put your modifications on top and I'll try to replicate it in other areas, see how it looks.

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## Amanda91

I think I can do it with lasso tool, I'll give it a try with lasso and then use the brushes to get the transition smooth.

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## RenflowerGrapx

Hi! Sorry I couldn't find the thread from my computer, i'm not really used to forums!

I Maybe forgot to say, while I used a single layer of light, i used several strokes.
You don't have to replicate my style we all find our way to execute something, and I think you are doing great. Of course a single stroke of brush won't give the same effect, 
The first think i made was to create a lightup on all the area, with a really soft stroke, and i pressured with the reduced sized brush to make the smaller light areas and make them more strong!

Of course it is something you can apply with texture, if you assign the pattern to the layer, and you have different lighted patterns you can overlap them at best.

Actually i think you made a whole world in a single dungeon and this is scary  :Very Happy:  and also really challenging, i like it!



If you want to smooth the brush strokes you can use a rubber/the thing to delete lol, with 40% trasparency and a soft radius.

IMO (in my opinion) the best way is to skill the pressure and work on different radius, trasparencies and sizes with a single brush and maybe assign textures to them later, with blending modes. IDK there is a whole world to explore with textures  :Very Happy: 

The last WIP looks really dynamic and various!

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## XCali

> I tried it with my pen but I wasn't able to reach the same result you did, mine looks dull.
> 
> Attachment 113495


Well looking at yours, it isn't about the linework, you can make very basic and rough lines. The trick on getting that high and low effect going is understanding light and shadow a bit better.

Try something. Add four Colour dots to the image on a different layer. The first a bright'ish colour, not white. The next a bit darker but still a little bright. The third darker by some margin and the last quite dark. (Play around with what four you choose, it is better to keep them at FULL opacity, so make sure you choose the right ones for the area.)

Now playing with JUST those four colours, you paint lines with your 2nd colour, add a few to signify steps down. THEN add the 3rd colour like the steps was casting a shadow. 
Then you use the 4th colour, a smaller brush to touch closer to the LINES you drew. This signify the parts that gets the least amount of light. 
Lastly, where you see the highest part of the stairs, you touch it with your brightest colour. 
As highlights give a protrusion feel that stands out, this will give the sense of height.

Hope that helps. I will see to getting a picture done.

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## Amanda91

Thanks I'm trying but I'm having a problem with the internet on my Pc, its very very slow, can't upload anything right now, when it gets normal I'll show the next update.

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## XCali

> Thanks I'm trying but I'm having a problem with the internet on my Pc, its very very slow, can't upload anything right now, when it gets normal I'll show the next update.


That's fine.  :Wink:  You really have a nice dungeon/cave map going already.  :Very Happy:  Well done btw. 

Here is a little showcase of basic highlights and shadows.
From the left I start with only four colours and then I add onto it to go darker and lighter with each next step.

Tut:


Edit:
And when you get real comfortable with adding Highlights, Cast shadows(softer larger shadows) Core shadows(much smaller but darker shadows) then you can go real dark and real bright to sell the effect even more. Good luck with the rest of the map.

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## Amanda91

So, how it looks and which one looks better?

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## RenflowerGrapx

> That's fine.  You really have a nice dungeon/cave map going already.  Well done btw. 
> 
> Here is a little showcase of basic highlights and shadows.
> From the left I start with only four colours and then I add onto it to go darker and lighter with each next step.
> 
> Tut:
> 
> 
> Edit:
> And when you get real comfortable with adding Highlights, Cast shadows(softer larger shadows) Core shadows(much smaller but darker shadows) then you can go real dark and real bright to sell the effect even more. Good luck with the rest of the map.


Thank you! I couldn't explain that good

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## RenflowerGrapx

> So, how it looks and which one looks better?


The two on the right IMO

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## Amanda91

So, how the first segment does looks like?

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## Amanda91

So, did the outer ring elevations, next I'll try to create some details other than the levels.

I also put a old paper texture above in order to tweak a bit the colour scheme.

Edit: Need some feedback on the water zones please.

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## FranCobasGC

Looks really nice Amanda! A bit dark but colorful!

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## RenflowerGrapx

Yeah good improvements! Huge!

I share the opinion it is too dark. But I think it's all about personal taste  :Smile: 

Good job


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## Amanda91

How can I improve the water zones? Specially those swamps on the inner rings.

Also how can I improve the desert? 

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## RenflowerGrapx

I guess different kind of sand. Deserta are not just wavy sand. You can try some breaks, arid soil, dirt, pieces or rocks, colums (natural cave rock)..  :Smile:  different shades of color as well, ivory sand, black sand, red sand etc etc

Opportunities are endless!

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## Amanda91

How does the desert looks like now? Also about the water bodies, how to get it more like water? And the inner water bodies are supposed to be swamps, how does I emulate a swamp?

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## Amanda91

I did some tweaks on the forest areas ground and with the center, I think its more beautiful and harmonious now, however I still don't like the desert and the bodies of water, any ideas?

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## Amanda91

I think I'm almost done with it

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## Bogie

Cool, very dramatic coloring!

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## Amanda91

> Cool, very dramatic coloring!


Hey  Bogie, I just posted a finished version of it, take a look: https://www.cartographersguild.com/s...936#post394936

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## XCali

Well done, you have done splendidly.  :Very Happy: 

Between your 3d to last and your Final, I feel the underground forest texture was a bit better in the 3d to last. But, that said, this is such a lovely map. You are a fast learner and really got the stair ways down to a tee.  :Very Happy:

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## Amanda91

> Well done, you have done splendidly. 
> 
> Between your 3d to last and your Final, I feel the underground forest texture was a bit better in the 3d to last. But, that said, this is such a lovely map. You are a fast learner and really got the stair ways down to a tee.


Thanks! I have some ideas for my next dungeon map, I think dungeons are somehow easy to do, but I'm very bad at regional maps and they're the maps I like more haha.

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