# Community Participation > Mapping Challenge Archive >  March 2015 Entry - Karsthaven

## Chick

I've decided to get in on the action, too.  Seems like fun and a good chance to do something underground for a change  :Smile: 

There is a formation common in limestone called a "dome-pit".  It forms from water seeping in through a hole at the surface and dissolving away the limestone into a very deep vertical column.  The name comes because if you are at the bottom looking up, it's a big dome, and if you are at the top looking down, it's a big pit.  Dome-pits frequently have old stream passages that run through the limestone and end falling into the pit, so there are often several cave passages that intersect the dome-pit at varying levels.

These shafts can be too small to enter up to hundreds of feet in diameter.  Here are some pictures of real dome-pits:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VFLDvzc5P2k/hqdefault.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3659/...7946e8235e.jpg
http://www.circleofblue.org/waternew...Earth-1000.jpg
http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2008/5023/s...s/image022.gif

My One Page Dungeon is set in a limestone dome-pit in which the side caves have been converted to various uses, including a long-lost temple complex called "Karsthaven, The Hidden Temple of Vrena".

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## J.Edward

Glad to have you in it too chick.  :Smile:

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## Chick

> Glad to have you in it too chick.


Thanks J.Edward!  In fact, it seems like I am usually the first to post in a challenge, so thanks for saving me from that fate  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

[Attempts noble bow, knee gives out, falls over, gets up and brushes dust from his pants....]
My pleasure.  :Smile:

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## arsheesh

Sounds like a solid idea.  And nice to see another person has entered the contest.  Look forward to seeing what you do with this.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Chick

I've started writing some of the text and I'd appreciate an opinion from those who have entered this competition before .... is this text big enough (font, spacing, content)?

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## J.Edward

hey chick, couldn't you verify that by printing it out on standard size paper and seeing if you could read it?
It seems like that should be a good way to test it.

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## Chick

> hey chick, couldn't you verify that by printing it out on standard size paper and seeing if you could read it?
> It seems like that should be a good way to test it.


Sure, is that what the judges go by?  I assumed they were going to read it onscreen and in that case, resolution is every bit as important as font size.  Thanks for the idea.

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## Chick

Here are today's additions.  I have tentatively blocked out the space I'll need for each room description, and it's gonna be tight.

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## ChickPea

I'm not much of a gamer, but this is shaping up to be very cool! It's deliciously creepy in places.  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

I don't know what the judges go by. I haven't entered that contest before.
Someone else will hopefully add some input there.

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## Larb

If I remember right they suggest the text size be no smaller than 10pt. I think you get "marked down" if it is difficult to read.

The best thing to do is to look at the entries from the previous years. Not only are they interesting to read but they are all on the website. That should give you an idea of the sort of things people submit. You'll also notice that there is a HUGE variety of entries. My own previous entries were A Stolen Spring and Fungal Infection.

Oh also when I made my entries what I did was draw the map separately and then put it all together using InDesign. Scribus is a free alternative to InDesign.

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## J.Edward

Hey Larb - what years did you enter?

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## Chick

The website says below 8 points is pushing your luck.  I've looked at lots of entries, but they are mostly losers.  I want to know what characteristics make the winners into the winners  :Smile: 

I've looked at winners from previous years, but they are all so different that it's really hard to pick out what makes them attractive.  In fact, a lot of them are not even dungeons, just maps of some island or building, so it's really hard to understand what they are actually looking for.   

I just thought some people who had entered in the past might have some good advice such as gameprinter posted in the other thread  :Smile:

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## Chick

> I'm not much of a gamer, but this is shaping up to be very cool! It's deliciously creepy in places.


Thanks !!  That's a new description of my maps  :Smile:

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## Larb

J.Edward: 2012 and 2013

chick: It's hard to say exactly. Apart from the technical stuff (keeping the font size readable, keeping the description and any "rules" system neutral) I'd say just something interesting that conveys some sort of "story" if possible. Your limestone sinkhole is interesting.

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## Chick

Here is the rest of the text (mostly).  I took J.Edward's advice and printed it, and it looked pretty small to my old eyes, so I've increased the font size and cut back on a little bit of the text descriptions to make it all fit.

I'm thinking I need some kind of vertical cross-section too, so I left some room for it.  Trouble is, I'm not sure how best to do that with the various cave sections spread radially around the central pit.  Suggestions and opinions welcome.

The rest seems to be an artistic problem of making the drawings look better, and since I suck at that, anything more will likely be a long time coming.

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## Chick

Here is what I hope will be the final version (not much hope, I know  :Smile: )

I want to give special thanks to J.Edward for some awesome advice on how to shade the domepit.  It came out pretty good by my standards of hopelessness at such things.

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## Abu Lafia

Hi chick, it's a wonderfully detailed description of the dungeon. I like the references to grimm's tales. My personal highlight are the flies. They are this kind of "damn!-why-did-we-kill-all-those-flies"-flies  :Very Happy:

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## Larb

Great entry - it was interesting to read. I also like the way you used colour to tie description to specific areas. It made it easier to follow.

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## Chick

> Hi chick, it's a wonderfully detailed description of the dungeon. I like the references to grimm's tales. My personal highlight are the flies. They are this kind of "damn!-why-did-we-kill-all-those-flies"-flies


Thank you, Abu!  The flies are a riot to run as the DM, because the players are always trying all kinds of ways to avoid being bitten while still managing to explore/search the rooms.  I always instruct them to keep careful track of the bites, and inform me when they reach 10 or 20 or etc, whereupon I tell them such things as they are feeling dizzy, etc.  When they find out at the end that the fly bites were beneficial, they tend to throw dice at me ....  :Smile: 




> Great entry - it was interesting to read. I also like the way you used colour to tie description to specific areas. It made it easier to follow.


Thank you, Larb, I really appreciate the feedback and knowing that the colour worked out well!

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## ChickPea

Great job! Good luck in the competition.  :Smile:

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## Chick

My next "final version" with a few minor typo and color corrections.

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Cheers,
Cornelia

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## Azélor

As Larb already mentioned, the colours are useful but I'm not sure it fits the tone of the map itself. There is too much joy in that map  :Mad:

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## Chick

> As Larb already mentioned, the colours are useful but I'm not sure it fits the tone of the map itself. There is too much joy in that map


I don't really know what that means   :Smile: , but perhaps you think I should make the colors more subdued or darker?

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## Larb

Maybe Azelor means that the choice of colours is very err... colourful. I suppose you could try a range of earthy tones instead or something. I think it's fine as it is but it would be interesting to see what it looks like with an earthy palette.

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## arsheesh

Wow, that is a lot of information packed onto a single page!  The color coding certainly does help with organization.  I see Azelor's point, though it doesn't really bother me. Very well thought out.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Chick

I wouldn't want to look too joyful  :Smile:  :Smile: 

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Seriously, I really appreciate the opinion of more knowledgeable eyes  :Smile:    Do these colors look more appropriate?

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## Larb

Actually I think that does look better. But I have a thing for slightly desaturated colours.

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## Azélor

> Actually I think that does look better. But I have a thing for slightly desaturated colours.


Same thing here.

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## Chick

> Same thing here.





> Actually I think that does look better. But I have a thing for slightly desaturated colours.


Then probably everyone else will, too  :Smile: 

Thank you both for the suggestion and critique!  :Smile:

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## anomiecoalition

Great map and adventure - I think the colors are OK but have you given any thought to doing a non-white background color?  Perhaps a light parchment or a warm earth color?

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## Chick

> Great map and adventure - I think the colors are OK but have you given any thought to doing a non-white background color?  Perhaps a light parchment or a warm earth color?


Thanks for the idea.  I'll give it a try and see what feedback I get.   :Smile:

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## Meshon

Well, I'm positive that I wrote a longish comment on this last night, but I was tired so I may have shut down before I actually clicked post! I'm sure it was real, I never have dreams that specific...

Firstly, the pit looks really good and I'm really happy that you posted some photos too. Those things give me the heebie jeebies. And the side view is a nice touch: "Yep, that goes right down. If you fall in there, that's it." If I was playing in this adventure I would spend a lot of time saying, "I cling desperately to the wall."

I think your decision to colour-code the area descriptions is really cool, it makes the map very useable. I would probably like to see the colours (I think you've used about five?) use a narrower palatte, but then you're running the risk of losing the clarity that the different lables provide. If it isn't too hard to alter I think that using a few different earth tones might be just the ticket. I also think that anomiecoalition's suggestion to try a parchment background is a good one. Of course then you'd have to be extra vigilant that the colour codes were still doing their job.

Now, I'm definitely having trouble with the type. Chancery, isn't it? Full disclosure, I played in a band back in the early 90s and we used that font for our stickers, T-shirts, posters, set-lists, tape covers (yes, tapes, what of it?  :Wink: ), everything. So I've had too much of a good thing. That said, I think you could use it for the area titles and maybe just a simple serif for the descriptions. Chancery is a really ornate font, and also pretty heavy, so maybe something like Adobe Caslon Proor even Junius Modern (I love the Junius fonts, and not just because they have thorn, eth, and yogh). If you have Creative Cloud and access to TypeKit you could look up Brioso Pro. I'm trying it out as body text for a project I'm working on and it kind of straddles the line between a simple paragraph font and an ornate heading typeface. But do take my type advice with a grain of salt. As I said, I have no objectivity when it comes to Chancery and it does provide me with a certain pleasant sense of nostalgia  :Smile: , so I'd still play the adventure even if it was there. Though I can't say my contributions to said adventure would amount to much beyond clinging...
_
Edit: Oops, forgot to mention that you could double check the leading on your legend especially. All those delightful long tails in Chancery tend to hook on to each other._

This is a really solid map, and a delightful adventure. Thank you for sharing it.

cheers,
Meshon

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## Chick

OK, here it is with a parchment background.

By the way, with the exception of the Introduction/The Dome-Pit/Legend sections (stuff meant for the DM), every color is different.

I'd sure appreciate critique about the background (parchment vs white).  I'm not sure if the parchment adds to the visual clutter or not, which is the reason I originally went with a simple white background.  I did add a little color to the Dome-pit drawing in the one, because the grey looked too stark next to the parchment.

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## Meshon

Would it be difficult to change the coloured areas so that they show the parchment texture a little? I think the texture you've chosen is subtle enough that it doesn't add to the busyness, and it softens the contrast just a nice amount. If I look with more care I DO see that the colours are all different. Dome pit looks good with the warmer colour. And not warm like, inviting... that pit. I dunno why I'm so afraid of it. 

Meshon

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## Chick

I tried that, but the parchment texture darkens the colors too much.  I tried several blending options, with the color on top blending down and with the parchment on top blending down, but nothing was really satisfactory.  I tried a lighter parchment, but to keep the colors light and soft, the parchment was too washed out.

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## Azélor

Duplicate the layer and set it to multiply.

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## anomiecoalition

FWIW - I think the subtle parchment color background is a big improvement.  I would also suggest changing the background color of the illustration on the bottom right to match the background color of your central illustration (that darker off-white).  

Have you thought about adding a slight feathered border to each of the text box colors so that they more naturally flow into the background color.  I know the text is really close together - but my thought is that it would make the transitions less stark.  

Either way - great job

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## Chick

I thought of one more thing to try .... this one does let the parchment texture show through a little, but I feel like I'm losing all the beautiful color that worked so well ...  :Frown: 

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Look back at the earlier versions with more color and see if you really like this one better, or am I going in the wrong direction?

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## anomiecoalition

IDK - I do like this version better myself - you could try increasing the overall contrast on the image - or adding a border to tie the whole thing together.

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## Meshon

I also like your latest version, but this is my own very subjective opinion. If the more colourful one is more beautiful then go with that one; ultimately it's your map and the rest of us can go take a hike up an isometric mountain  :Wink: . I think your layout is spot on and the colours are a good way to tie it together. And Chancery, despite being quite ornate, is really readable. I'm also respecting the time you've put in to make it work.

Some possible errors I've spotted:
Entrance Passage: The passage in is *a* bare stone...
Waterfall Cave: "The rock is slippery near the stream." Really? I'm already terrified of falling into that pit!

This looks great, I'd say you are near done!

cheers,
Meshon

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## ChickPea

I'll throw in my opinion too, for what it's worth. I'm normally in the camp of liking desaturated colours better, but this time I think the last version you posted looks too washed out. It looks like it's been left out in the sun too long and the background has faded away to almost monotone! I like the version in comment no. 35 best, where the colours are dulled a little but they still noticeably stand out from each other. I like the parchment background better than the white.

I think this is a fantastic piece of work overall!

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## Chick

OK, another try at keeping colors bright and still having some parchment texture show through.  I know I'll never please everyone, so I'm hoping this is good enough, before I start eyeing the "I hate this map" thread  :Smile: 

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Cheers,
Cornelia

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## Meshon

My vote is for "more than good enough" as long as you're happy with it. I put the last three images you've posted over top of each other so I could switch between them and quickly see the changes. Did you do more work on the pit for the last version, or is that just a function of blending changes? Whatever you did, that pit looks really good now, best version yet. Great work!

cheers,
Meshon

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## Chashio

I think that works. My eyes kept losing the distinctions between the colors in the previous version. I do still wonder if it might help to remove the colors from the intro and legend, like the side view at bottom right, and maybe the title and bottom row of text as well, because none of that is pointing to a specific section of the map and it's still a little confusing to my eyes because of this. 

Side note: Another thing you could try, not that you need to on this one, is taking a grungy eraser (preferably on a mask) to the edges and/or interior of the color pools, which can be a handy alternative to just adjusting layer opacity. I do that with my watercolor-styled pieces and it works well.

Aside from that, I have to say that this is a very well done map; clear, concise, with wonderfully descriptive summary to visualize the space. I haven't paid attention to dungeon maps before, preferring the open landscape, but this one has caught my imagination  (it's like an excellent short story adventure--with puctures!) and I may even be inspired to try making one or two in the future. So, thanks for that, and great work!

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## ChickPea

Yes, I like this version better too. The colours are distinct but they don't overwhelm with their brightness. 

Agree with Chashio's thoughts above that it'd be interesting to see the edges slightly erased or feathered and I also wonder if the title especially needs a background? But please don't start hating your map!!  :Very Happy:

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## Chick

Thanks for all the really good input!   I tried feathering the edges of the colors way back, and I hated it.  It made it even harder to distinguish the regions and tie them to the map component they described.

I did try taking the color off the Title and Intro and Signature lines, but I'm not sure I like this ... it seems too bland now.

However, Chashio's suggestion about a "grunge" eraser was brilliant.  I don't know exactly what a "grunge eraser" is, but I tried a low opacity soft brush eraser and knocked down the color in the center of the color regions, without touching the edges.  That left full color edges to help outline the areas of interest, while letting the parchment texture show through more in the centers.

Do you like this one better or worse than the previous?

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## Chashio

That works too, although you have a point about the. ... I wouldn't say blandness but it does need to stand out a touch more. What if you add a small bit of corner flare (think like flourish line art border element in the corner) just left of the title to draw the eye there? Or you could go back to the color backgrounds, but perhaps change the hue so it's not so close to others that are on the page.

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## Chick

I'm going to go with this one.  It has a lot of the ideas that many people have suggested, and it's the one that I like the best out of all those experiments. 

Thank you so very much to all the people who made suggestions or just commented on it.  I learn so much from these challenges and it's due entirely to the great people here who share their ideas, skills, and knowledge.

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..... Now to go work on the village .... so many challenges, so little time  :Smile:

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## Abu Lafia

The rework really paid off! The parchment texture and the more subtle colours work well together. Good luck for the Challenge, and great to see you joining the Lite Challenge too!

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## J.Edward

I concur chick.  :Smile:  It's all come together well.

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## Chick

> I concur chick.  It's all come together well.


Thank you, J.  From someone as skilled as you, that's a really nice compliment!  :Smile: 




> The rework really paid off! The parchment texture and the more subtle colours work well together. Good luck for the Challenge, and great to see you joining the Lite Challenge too!


Abu, your input was so helpful, I really appreciated all your comments and suggestions in getting this to such a nice color!   :Smile: 

And lots of thanks to all the other people who made such helpful suggestions or useful critiques!  You all had a hand in making this better!  In the unlikely event that it wins the OPD competition next month, I'm buying dinner for everyone who can get here!   :Smile:

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## J.Edward

My pleasure chick.  :Smile:

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