# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  WIP: Pyrus (commission, for Shadire)

## Wingshaw

This thread is for (yet another) WIP map of mine, the city of Pyrus, commissioned by CG-member Shadire. The request thread, with brief details, is located here. This is my first commission (not including my entry in the Oct./Nov. 2014 challenge), so I'm new to that side of mapmaking.

I've posted my initial sketches and the start of the map below. Feedback is always appreciated.

I chose to draw it on an A3 sheet of paper, which I think was a good decision, because it allows me to do more detail and make it look better. The downside, however, which is already apparent in the below image, is that it is much harder to scan, and I will have to stitch together two separate images to make the final.

THW

PS: Shadire, if you have any comments, questions, suggestions etc., or if I have any for you, I'll ask/answer them in this thread. Seems easier to keep information together that way.

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## Galendae

Great Start!

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## shadire

Brilliant start THW! Did you get my PM reply? I'm not certain if it sent properly (it's not showing in my sent box). 
In case you didn't, it's absolutely fine if you make some changes to the map layout and such. A brief explanation of what the changes will be will be appreciated, but only a brief one is really needed. Going by your 'Tips for Worldbuilders', you're probably much better suited for laying out a city than I am  :Wink: . Sorry about being inactive for a tad, my Internet and electric have been down/rather hazy due to storms.

Many thanks,
Shadire

EDIT: Also, I did receive your email

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## Wingshaw

@Shadire: I got your PM. At the moment, the changes I want to make are:
--bring the Noble district up to the walls of the docks area. The reasons are partly artistic (it will give me more room to draw the nobles' houses, and remove a narrow corridor of hard to draw buildings) and partly to do with realistic urban layout patterns
--add suburbs outside some gates. Suburbs were a very common feature of historic cities, and I think they would make the picture look more realistic, and dynamic. I won't add any to the West Road, because of what you say about raids.
--I have also reduced the length of the sea walls, so they make a smaller enclosure around the port. I did that simply because I think it looks better.
--lastly, the walled area to the west of the harbour master (from where I have written castle in my sketch to the outer town wall) looks to me like it might all be a military precinct (fortress, arsenale, barracks, etc.). I was therefore thinking of depicting that whole area as a kind of fortress. I'll include a handful of non-military buildings as well.

If any of those changes are problems, let me know. Otherwise, I'll assume it's fine.

Oh, and for the benefit of others viewing this thread, I'll provide Shadire's original sketch that this is going to be based off, and the legend that goes with it:

Original sketch

*I: Port District:* _various docks, warehouses, and some inns and taverns_
   i. Harbour Master's Office
   ii. Fort Pyrus
   iii. Shipping Guild
   v. Cartographers' Guild
*II: Noble District:* _the mansions of the 10 patrician houses, the council chambers of the city council, a castle for the Patrician Guards, and upper class housing_
*III: West Road:* _a stable, a handful of ruined lookout towers (due to the occasional hobgoblin raid), and several guard tents_
*IV & V: North Road and East Road:* _a stable each_
*VI: Outer District:* _lower class housing and inns (more so closer to the gates) as well as some general stores near the gates_
*VII: Trading District:* _middle class housing, many shops and stalls, as well as posh inns for merchants_
   iv. Merchants' Guild
   vi. Great Exchange
*VIII: Spice District:* _spice refineries (I'm not entirely sure what these should be called), as well as low and middle class housing for the workers_
*IX: Temple District:* _the Great Temple of the Phaerimm, the Clergy of Asmodeus, the Clergy of Pelor, and housing for the temple staff and priests_
*X: East District:* _middle-class housing_

I've also included the same picture as in my original post, but with some experiments with colour (no shadows/highlights, yet).

I think that's it for now. As usual, comments/suggestions are welcome.

THW

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## SteffenBrand

I don't think scanning two parts and putting it together is a big issue if you have some PS knowledge. I tried it very roughly, it is possible with cities but a lot of work I guess. If you want to make it all by hand (at least the basics) try to go to a copy shop to scan it. I think it is worth the few bucks to get a good scan to continue with color or to make the final touches. Keep it up! =)

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Steffen. In the past I've just stitched together two pictures (actually, a good method is to scan four images and stitch them), but city maps, with all their details, probably need a better method. I may well use a copy place.

THW

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## shadire

> --bring the Noble district up to the walls of the docks area. The reasons are partly artistic (it will give me more room to draw the nobles' houses, and remove a narrow corridor of hard to draw buildings) and partly to do with realistic urban layout patterns


Aye, this was (sort of) in one of my early [extremely] rough sketches of Pyrus (except it stretched out into the middle of the city which seemed far too large for me). I like the idea of the Noble District by the docks, those patricians need to survey their merchant empires from the comfort of their own homes  :Wink: 



> --add suburbs outside some gates. Suburbs were a very common feature of historic cities, and I think they would make the picture look more realistic, and dynamic. I won't add any to the West Road, because of what you say about raids.


I very much like this idea (especially after your 'Tips for Worldbuilders' post), and definitely agree about the realism and dynamic feel.



> --I have also reduced the length of the sea walls, so they make a smaller enclosure around the port. I did that simply because I think it looks better.


 I do find that the more open port definitely looks much better than having a wall encircling most of it (I really wasn't sure of how big to make it in my sketch)



> --lastly, the walled area to the west of the harbour master (from where I have written castle in my sketch to the outer town wall) looks to me like it might all be a military precinct (fortress, arsenale, barracks, etc.). I was therefore thinking of depicting that whole area as a kind of fortress. I'll include a handful of non-military buildings as well.


 I think this will definitely open up some doors for some 'fun' for the adventurers in the campaign  :Wink: 

Also, when I saw the coloured bit I just about died of excitement  :Razz: 

Many thanks and keep up the amazing work!
Shadire

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## Wingshaw

Another update. This shows the docks district about 1/2 -- 2/3 done. Still haven't added shadows/highlights, which I expect will transform the image, to some degree.

I realised, perhaps too late, that I wasn't drawing buildings that resemble particularly the warehouses/taverns that Shadire said were present in that district, but rather generic Italian-style houses. Shadire, when you see this, I hope you won't mind too much. Unfortunately, my approach to mapmaking leaves only a narrow window of time for alterations, between the original sketches and inking it in. Here, the ink is down, so changing things would be difficult. That said, I am quite certain that warehouses were a rarity in medieval times--most people tended to have basements or storerooms attached to their shops/houses; true warehouses were more often the property of aristocratics/royalty/large companies. Anyway, apologies if this is a problem.

To all guilders, please feel free to drop off a comment/suggestion/critique, as per usual.

THW

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## tainotim

Oh THW, this looks beautiful already. Makes me want to get started on another city map right away. Very, very inspirational. The shape of the "keep" or tower where the stone wall overlaps into the wooden water-wall look splendid. And I love the little boats  :Smile: 

Waiting patiently for the next update!

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## Ilanthar

I agree with Tainotim! It's very promising  :Smile:

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## shadire

This is looking more and more brilliant with each installment! Amazing work THW!

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## Wingshaw

@tainotim: if my map inspires you to create a city map, we may end up in an infinite feedback loop, since your maps were a big inspiration for this. We'll just end up making endless city maps, inspired by each other. Not that that is a bad thing, though  :Wink: 

@Ilanthar: thanks.

@Shadire: thanks, too. The next update is coming along--I'm working on the temple district and eastern suburbs. I probably won't be adding colour to future updates (unless it is needed to show what something is), since the scanning process requires the colours to be redone from scratch each time. The final image will, of course, have colour.

THW

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## shadire

Brilliant  :Very Happy:  (I really need to think of more adjectives)

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## Wingshaw

Here's the next update. I've finished the Noble District and the Temple District (not including windows/doors), and the Docks only need the castle to be done. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm not putting much effort into colours at the moment. The colours here are primarily meant to distinguish trees from other objects, and test some alternative wall/roof colours (to represent higher quality building materials).

A few more notes:
--the labels for the temple district are not definite. I'm happy for them to be shifted around, if the client wants.
--the architecture in the temple district includes Venetian, Vatican, and Turkish influences. The last one, I am hoping, gives it a more exotic look. The gardens, also, I am hoping make it stand out from the other district/s.
--the architecture in the Noble District is also heavily inspired by Venetian palaces. Eventually, all buildings will have windows, but for now I've only consistently added them to this district to make the structures stand out a bit more.
--the labels, again, can be influenced by the client's wishes.
------@Shadire: if you want to give any further information (eg. the names of the ten ruling families) or suggest shifting things around a bit, please don't hesitate. You can see that it is coming together, and I think those touches will really help.
--the layout of the eastern district is now visible. As a middle-class area, I'll probably employ Parisian/Renaissance Italian architecture styles.
--a few sketches for the eastern suburbs are visible, but I'm still trying to figure out what style to do them in.
--I'm not sure I like how landmark buildings are highlighted. Does anyone have a suggestion for a good way to single out particular buildings? In my opinion, the problem right now is that multiple buildings just blend together.

I'll also add a view of the previous update, with a few experiments in shadows/highlights, to indicate the effect I'm going for.

That's it for now.

THW

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## Galendae

Wow! I will following this thread.  What a great start!

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## shadire

My excitement grows with each installment!

For the Temple labels I believe the current ones are quite appropriate. The main point is to have the Phaerimm worshippers have the most grandiose temple, which they do with the current labeling (I'm loving the domes in/on the roof!)

One small comment is that the second item on the label index should be the Shipping Guild en lieu of the Sailors' Guild (It may just be that I mistyped when I first gave you the legend).

As for the ten ruling families, they are (in an approximate order of importance):
1. House Amalfi - The ruling family
2. House Gallino - The patron of this house heads the military of Pyrus
3. House Vitiello - The patron of this house is in charge of magical affairs in the city
4. House Regalia - Nothing too special about this house
5. House D'Enrico - Descendants of the city's founder, High Lord Karl Heinrichson (The humans used to be rather Norse before Luxos was devoured by the waves, but Pyrus was founded after the Italian influence had started to take hold)
6. House Morici - Nothing too special about this house
7. House Sperandeo - Large benefactors of the Temple of Pelor
8. House Righi - Nothing too special about this house
9. House Morreale - Nothing too special about this house
10. House Benenati - This house is starting to fall from grace, but is still fairly strong

In terms of labeling any gaps in names of landmarks and so on, some suggestions would be Mare/Marediathin (Marediath is the city's predecessor), Heinrich/Heinrichson/D'Enrico, names relating to the other ruling houses, and, quite frankly, any generic Italian names

As for the highlighting, I do agree that the adjacent highlighted buildings to seem to blend together making the borders a tad ambiguous. I've yet to think of any possible solutions (my artistic ability is a tad lackluster), but if I think of anything that I believe might help I'll let you know.

Many thanks!
Shadire

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Galendae.

Thanks Shadire. I've adjusted the labels, so they are now more accurate and complete. I'll include a pic in the next update. I have to say, I'm really pleased to see the Italian names here; your mention of Venice in the original request is one of the things that encouraged me to take on this commission--I'm a sucker for all things Italian.

EDIT: Shadire, I find that a great way to add depth and realism to a city is to add monuments to important events (eg. statues commemorating a victory/important person, memorial from a fire/plague/battle, outdoor shrine or obelisk for a particular deity, etc.). If there are any events in the city's past that you think they might want to commemorate, I can use them to fill up some more labels. It's just a thought.

THW

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## Jalyha

Beautiful so far, as always, THW!  :Smile:  Always inspiring me to try and do better lol.

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## shadire

Wooh, past major events. This is the part where my players think I'm absolutely insane. I've been writing chronicle of most of the major happenings in the world covering several thousand years. Granted, there are a number of large blank spots due to disasters destroying records (and definitely not just me not wanting to write an extremely detailed chronicle covering every... single... year...  :Wink:  ). For the more major events concerning Pyrus:

Founding of Pyrus 3126 IA (Ithil Age) - In the closing days of the Ithil Age High Lord Karl Heinrichson of Marediath leads many of his citizens to found a new city on the new southern continent. The city is named Karlediath

Sinking of Marediath 7 RA (Reborn Age) - 8 years after the founding of Karlediath, Marediath sinks beneath the waves

Great Fire of Karlediath circa 2000 RA - A great fire ravaged the city destroying the archives as well as many of the oldest buildings. The clearing of these buildings made room for the new Italianesque ones

Battle of the Bridge of Urcal 2427 RA - Forces from Karlediath, Belgardiath (another merchant republic city further north on a separate landmass), and the forces of House Urcal (no relation to the Pyrian nobility) battle the Devout of Auril at the Bridge of Urcal (several hundred kilometers west of Pyrus). The Karlediathin, led by King Venerus Heinrichson, win the battle with the aid of the Phaerimm

The Great Conversion circa 2700 RA - King Enrico D'Einricosuo (Heinrichson was gradually becoming more and more Italian) declared Phaerimm worship the state religion. The Archglergy of Pelor was rebranded the Great Temple of the Phaerimm

The Phaerimm Wars 2750 (Ends at the year 2840) RA to 326 DA (Divided Age) - A series of wars fought between a coalition and the city-states from the northern continent against a coalition of Karlediath, Belgardiath, and the Phaerimm.
Notable battles: the Siege of Belgardiath, the Burning of Endstone, the Fourth Battle of the Bridge of Urcal, and the Battle of the Pyrian Fields. 
Notable Karlediathin commands are: King Onofrio D'Einricsuo, King Oderico D'Enricsuo (another gradual name change), General Arturo Salvadori, Admiral Ciriaco Curami, and Archmage Alessio di Maio

After of the Phaerimm Wars circa 320 DA - Karlediath is renamed Pyrus after the Pyrian fields. Worship of Pelor and Asmodeus are tolerated within the city once more.

The Burning Famine 580 DA - The growing desert to the south destroys much of the farmland owned by Pyrus to the south of the Sea of Pyrus. The hunger causes the people to revolt. Mirco Zisa of the Shipping Guild leads a force which topples the reign of King Nico D'Enricsuo and installs the merchant republic, but with guilds en lieu of families.

The Scarlet Plague circa 1100 DA - The Scarlet Plague reaches Pyrus and kills ~40% of the population. Lord Advocate Regalia of the Cartographers' Guild is in power at the time. The plague claims all members of the Zisa family

The Noble Republic 1242 DA - Due to the waning power of the guilds power is instead granted to the ten most powerful noble houses, forming the Council of Ten

The Gorthrokin Invasion 1823 DA - A vast army of dragonborn invade the continent and strike at Pyrus. A coalition of the various city-states manages to repel them. 
Notable generals are: Prince Urcal (a tiefling), King Dario Contrini of Chalus (formerly Belgardiath), Chancellor Thamiar Telcondi XI of Cryus (an elf), and Lord Advocate Damaso D'Enrico of Pyrus

Present Day 1456 BA (Burning Age) - Lord Advocate Enrico Amalfi presides over the Council of Ten

This may be bit extensive, but better too much than too little, right? (Or if it isn't extensive enough I can definitely provide you with more events)

Many Thanks,
Shadire

P.S. I was thinking of starting a thread on the Guild with entries that include a handful of key points in the chronicle and an updated map of the world. Do you think this is a good idea?

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Jalyha.

Shadire, that information is excellent. I'll definitely be able to include some of it in the next update. Also, are there any great explorers/scientists/philosophers/artists/writers/inventors etc originally from Pyrus or who came to live in the city?

THW

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## Ilanthar

Great! A good background for a future great map! That's just making me want to work another city map...

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## shadire

One thing that I forgot to add in the previous entry is that the Burning Age started in 1823 DA, immediately the Gorthrokin Invasion

The most important great person who ever lived in Pyrus would definitely be Pasha Erdem (a halfling from Misthaven (the main halfling town in the world)). He highly refined the process of refining and preserving spices, and thus is one of the pillars of Pyrus' economy. He first moved to Pyrus in 227 DA and was assassinated away in 265 DA by an unknown assailant.

Other important figures are:

Archpriest Aydin I - The first Archpriest of the Great Temple of the Phaerimm and a native of Chalus. He lived during the time of the Great Conversion.

Gerino Parano - A famous architect. He designed the new Clergy of Pelor. He lived most much of his life abroad due to the tensions between Pelor worshipers and Phaerimm worshipers.

Viviana Tufano (Finally, a female character!) - A famous painter during the Gorthrokin Invasion. She painted portraits of the nobility.

Ferit Gulpinar - A native of Chalus. He sculpted many of the statues and monuments of the Phaerimm (most of which are in the Great Temple). He lived during the Great Conversion.

Brother Tadeo D'Apolito - He was once the Archcleric of the Clergy of Asmodeus in Pyrus before being forced to flee the city during the Burning Famine, as he was suspected of contributing to the desertification (the cause was unknown at the time). He then founded the Abbey of Blood far west of Pyrus where he created various medicines/potions using spices native to Pyrus. His work was at first rejected by the Pyrians, but long after his death during the Scarlet Plague, it proved most useful.

Fazio Zisa - A descendant of Mirco Zisa, he delivered fierce rhetoric against the guild system and wrote many of the documents that would eventually cause Pyrus to become a merchant republic run by noble families. He died during the Scarlet Plague, but his work lived on.

Ciro Forcucci - A good friend of Fazio Zisa. He went to the other city-states in the world delivering speeches in favour of the noble republic. He was assassinated by the Assassins' Guild of Misthaven while staying in Misthaven.

Iacopo Viele - A wealthy Pyrian who was a powerful benefactor of the Shipping Guild, as well as being very popular among the poor. He organized several expeditions to try and find the sunken city of Marediath several years before the Gorthrokin Invasion. He died on one such expedition due to an outbreak of dysentery on the ship and his paranoia of divine magic. His expeditions never did succeed.

Elvia Bacino - She was a famed (infamous to guilds) Pyrian assassin who is suspected of founding the city's branch of the Assassins' Guild. She lived in the years before when the noble houses took power. It is suspected that her assassination of many important guild members is what caused the guild system to collapse. Because of this, she is regarded as a hero to both the people and the noble houses. Her employer is unknown.

If you need any other background information let me know and I shall happily provide

Many thanks,
Shadire

P.S. There was a typo in my previous entry which listed Thamiar as Thamier. It has been corrected now.

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## Wingshaw

Perfect. I think that's plenty, Shadire.

THW

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## Wingshaw

Latest update.

This version shows:
--docks district finished;
--eastern stables finished;
--eastern residential district mostly finished;
--Arsenale and castle precinct ~1/2 finished (I forgot to erase the pencil lines, though, so it still looks a bit messy);
--labels expanded, including monuments to people/events (these are likely to be constantly altered throughout the drawing).

Only other things to mention:
--eastern residential district is inspired by Renaissance Florence architecture;
--Castle of Pyrus partially inspired by the Alcazar of Segovia, Spain;
--Arsenale is inspired by the Arsenale of Venice;
--a few areas where my drawing has gotten a bit sloppy, but no need to point them out in detail.

Comments? Suggestions? Criticisms?

THW

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## Bogie

Looking Great THW!

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Bogie.

THW

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## shadire

Absolutely stunning work THW!

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## jbgibson

>BAM<

>BAM<

... that's the sound of you _nailing_ this, THW.   

>BAM<

It's awesome even midway through.

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## Wingshaw

Cheers jb and Shadire. 'nother update coming soon.

THW

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## Wingshaw

First day of the new year, and here's another update. I haven't put much time into colouring this one, and the scan is bad quality. The main point, though, is that the drawing of the city is complete. Next up, the countryside, and then its the final stages.

Always keen to hear feedback and critiques. Especially interested to know what people think of the slums districts.

THW

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## Soixante

This is going to be incredbly fantastic when it gets some colour and texture. Well, it already is fantastic, but you get my point.

Oh and the slums look great (really like the variously coloured roofs), but even people living in slums deserve to have a door of some sort to their shack. Or at least a doorway.  :Wink:  Also, really cool walkways between the buildings.

edit: oh, wait. are there two slums quarters? the one on the left looks drearier than the other one, so maybe that's the slums? still, very nice buildings.

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## Wingshaw

You're right, there are two separate slum districts. The left-hand one shows my first experiments, and the right hand one my later experiments. My brother advised me to try and make it look more sprawly, and so that is what I tried to do. I think the second is probably better, but it is also harder to work out the architecture that is being depicted. I'm going tobsuggest to Shadire that the separate styles is due to different racial/ethnic populations, or different historical developments or somesuch.

Thanks for the praise, Soixante.

THW

Edit: oh, also, just to clarify
--The different coloured roofs on the right-hand slums are meant to be simple cloth awnings, to reflect the poverty of the neighbourhood.
--There are still a few neighbourhoods that need doors and windows. They'll probably show up in the next update.

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## tainotim

Still going strong THW, this is splendid. Im actually trying to stop myself from looking at this too much, so I can pour over all the wonderful details when its finished and marvel over the beauty. Just amazing!

As of feedback, all I can say is keep doing what you are doing.  Cant wait for the next update. You inspire me!

Oh, and happy new year! 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## Ilanthar

A lot of details and m(h)appiness here  :Smile:

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Tainotim and Ilanthar.

I thought I'd post this picture. It is the same drawing as the previous update, just with more colour, some experiments with shadows, and expanded labels.

Still struggling with how to highlight certain buildings, and make sure the labels stick out clearly. Any suggestions would be very welcome.

THW

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## Ascension

I think you have the right idea - shading the unimportant buildings a darker tone and stick the numbers on a roof.  I've seen some put the numbers in the street but that doesn't always work out.

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## shadire

THW, your amazing work has left me speechless. Thank you very much for your work thus far on Pyrus! Apologies for brief hiatus in not responding sooner to your updates, the Christmas season has brought many nasty storms to my doorstep (and power lines). 

In terms of my preference/non-professional input for the outlines/labels, I prefer the current highlighted labels over the earlier plain text ones, as it makes them more visible. For positioning the labels, I believe that your current system seems to work fine, and (as far as I know) I am capable of distinguishing which labels correspond to which building. As for highlighting, maybe trying a fainter outline between connected buildings to help distinguish them. Bear in mind, I have little to no visual artistic capabilities, but (hopefully) my suggestions might be of some benefit.

Many thanks,
Shadire

P.S. The military district has me dying of excitement, absolutely brilliant!

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Shadire and Ascension.

Almost finished the drawing now, so I probably won't be putting any more updates until I can scan the completed picture, before proceeding to the final colouring and labelling stage.

@Shadire: a few things I ought to mention:
--I am considering making the western countryside into a forest area, with ruined farmhouses to go with your mention of hobgoblin raids. If you do not want it to be forested, let me know as soon as possible (as I mentioned previously, once it is in ink, I can't change it any more).
--The poor district, interpreted as slums, does not go the entire way around the city's compass, as your diagram suggested, but is rather divided into two areas. I had to do that be ause the axonometric angle of the picture left me with no space to add slums all the way round. I hope that isn't a problem.
--The suburbs in the east are now drawn. Parts of them I like, but other parts I think I overdid. Consequently I am going to tone down the other bits to be more like connected villages. Again, hope that's alright.
--Happy to try out your suggestion with the labelling, and take on board Ascension's comments. The thinner black line to separate structures is a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

THW

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## randigpanzrall

A fine process to follow  :Smile:

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## shadire

Again, my apologies for the delay in responding to your message. I am fine with the western countryside being forested (not too densely of course due to its proximity to the city). The poor district being disconnected should not be a problem. I would definitely much prefer a very nice map than one completely faithful to my (rather rough) diagram. The toning down of the eastern suburbs should also be fine, and I have confidence that you can definitely do so in a most pleasing fashion. 

Many thanks,
Shadire

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## tainotim

Any news on this THW? I'm eager to see your next update  :Smile: 

Cheers,
KV

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## Wingshaw

Apologies for the lack of updates, and thanks for the comments.

@shadire: thanks for approving those alterations. I hope you won't be disappointed with the way I've done the countryside. Expect to receive a private message shortly, to finalise a few things about the map.

@tainotim: I expect to have the drawing completed this weekend (maybe even tonight). At that point--and once I have found a copy shop to scan it--there'll only remain colour, shadows, and labels to be done. It's very close, now.

THW

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## Wingshaw

OK, as promised, I finished the drawing over the weekend. I've attached it below as the latest update on this project. Unfortunately, the copy shop scanned it at a very poor resolution, and I had to further compress it to fit with CG file size limits (making it a PNG in the process). The update below, therefore, just shows what I have accomplished with the drawing so far. Later this week I hope to find a place that can scan it at a decent quality, so I can begin colouring, shading, and annotating the image.

I'd be happy if anyone can suggest useful tips for getting large images scanned, and maintaining an acceptable filesize for CG posting (bearing in mind, I am fairly technically illiterate).

In the meantime, I have begun drawing little ships that I will insert into the harbour using photoshop (hopefully it will add more life to the image), and I'll try playing around with colour on this inadequate scanned file.

Comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome.

THW

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## arsheesh

Fantastic!  Congrats on the commission and well done.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## - Max -

Some nice job here THW ! The perspective looks a bit odd to me here and there though. Which kind of perspective did you choose for it?

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## Wingshaw

Thanks guys. Um, just to be clear, this map isn't finished. I posted the above update to celebrate the completion of the hand-drawn part (the longest and hardest stage, certainly). The digital phase is coming next. Just explaining so there's no misunderstanding.




> Some nice job here THW ! The perspective looks a bit odd to me here and there though. Which kind of perspective did you choose for it?


I think it is isometric, but, really, I've never applied the rules of perspective very systematically. I tend to just go with instinct. I know that there are a few problems here with the drawing, but once it is in ink, there's no going back. I try to justify it by telling myself that, since medieval cities rarely have right-angled corners, it wouldn't matter too much. Thanks for the feedback; I appreciate it. Being new to the commissioned mapmaking game, I expect there's a lot I could learn from seasoned professionals like you and Arsheesh.

THW

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## tainotim

Wonderful THW! I love it. You really have an eye for unique details. Like the outskirts in the top left part, with the camp and the ruins: or the dried out moat surrounding the town. Also, love that you really managed to maintain the class differences within and outside the town. Can't wait to see this with some color. Was this done on a a3? 

Like Max mentioned, there are some perspective issues overall, however, I like it. It gives a certain charm, or identity, to your style that works for me  :Smile: 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## - Max -

> I think it is isometric, but, really, I've never applied the rules of perspective very systematically. I tend to just go with instinct. I know that there are a few problems here with the drawing, but once it is in ink, there's no going back. I try to justify it by telling myself that, since medieval cities rarely have right-angled corners, it wouldn't matter too much. Thanks for the feedback; I appreciate it. Being new to the commissioned mapmaking game, I expect there's a lot I could learn from seasoned professionals like you and Arsheesh.
> 
> THW


Yes, sorry to haven't point it on an earlier stage. Actually, on an isometric perspective, the vertical lines will be strictly vertical. There's a lot of vertical lines here that are tilted which looks a bit odd and give the perspective a wrong overall feeling. But well, it's still a nice work anyway  :Smile:

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## Wingshaw

> Actually, on an isometric perspective, the vertical lines will be strictly vertical. There's a lot of vertical lines here that are tilted which looks a bit odd and give the perspective a wrong overall feeling.


Ah, yes, now I know what you mean. I did intend on keeping lines vertical, but, when drawing freehand, I expect it is inevitable that things will end up wonky. I notice tainotim's hand-drawn maps don't have this issue, though: maybe I should take lessons from him  :Smile: 




> Wonderful THW! I love it. You really have an eye for unique details. Like the outskirts in the top left part, with the camp and the ruins: or the dried out moat surrounding the town. Also, love that you really managed to maintain the class differences within and outside the town. Can't wait to see this with some color. Was this done on a a3?


Thanks. Yep, A3 (which is probably why it took so long).

THW

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## shadire

Marvelous work THW, I cannot wait to see the full city in colour! I do especially like the way that the agricultural land in the NE turned out (it is reminding me quite a bit of _Eau des collines_, but the beauty of the map far beats the twisted memories  :Wink:  ) as well as the suburbs outside the walls. I never really did put much thought into what life outside the walls of Pyrus would be like, but this should make for some very interesting encounters for when the party's dealing with some less than reputable figures.

Many thanks,
Shadire

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## Ascension

Looks good to me, man.  It looks hand-drawn and not done on a CAD program and I like that, makes it look antique.

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## tainotim

Not to be a nag, but any news on this? Eager to see your next update  :Wink: 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## Wingshaw

Sorry. I'm terrible at keeping things updated.

@Shadire: thanks. Not being a French speaker, I've never heard of Eau des collines before, but I checked itout when you mentioned it. Being compared with thaose wonderful illustrations is high praise indeed.

@Ascension: you're right, it isn't digitally drawn at all. Glad you like it.

@Tainotim: not a nag at all. It is always gratifying to have such interest in my work. By way of explanation for the long delays lately, I've decided not to put up an update until it is basically finished. The next update, therefore, may be the last one, but it isn't ready yet.

Out of interest, though, here's how close things now are (bold means it is finished, or nearly so):
--*Basic colouring*
--*Advanced colouring*
--*Basic shadows*
--Advanced shadows
--*Basic highlights* (mostly)
--*Labels*
--Title box and border
--*Finishing touches* (mostly)

I have a few things to get on with that are not map-related, but then I'll be getting back to work and trying to finish this off. I think your patience will be rewarded.

THW

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## Wingshaw

Hi all,

Need to ask for some help, here.

I've just finished drawing the title box for Pyrus, but I don't know what would be a good font to use. Does anyone have any recommendations. I was thinking something a bit like this, but I'm open to all suggestions.

The text will simply say:
A View of the Noble Republic of
Pyrus
as it stands in the present year 1456 of the Burning Age
Mapped and surveyed by Giorgio di Canberra

Thanks,
THW

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## Larb

Sadly typography isn't a strongpoint of mine and I'd probably go with a basic serif font. It might be worth looking for something similar to those letters in the boxes next to it.

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## Wingshaw

Those letters were 'drawn' by me, and, unfortunately, both my typography and my handwriting are not good enough for this (I can manage four letters if I take my time, but I wouldn't want to rely on that). Chick has sent me a nice font, that I will probably use, though.

THW

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## Ilanthar

Why not the SPQR font? I think it's pretty close to what you want.

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## Wingshaw

> Why not the SPQR font? I think it's pretty close to what you want.


Thanks Ilanthar! SPQR Looks perfect!

THW

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## shadire

Good day (or night) to you,

@THW You're update speed is perfectly satisfactory (although I believe mine for responding to your posts could use a bit of improvement). I'm not entirely certain what images you are referring to relative to Eau des collines (I have only ever read the novels, no graphic novels or other such mediums, the layout of the farm just reminded me of that in the book). The SPQR font/title box both seem like they fit the theme of the map very well (although, again, my artistic expertise is somewhat lacking, but they seem fitting to me). The header text should definitely work (I very much like the touch of the Italianization (?) of your name). I do most certainly believe that the patience of all people following your work will be rewarded.

Many thanks,
Shadire

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## Wingshaw

At last, I have the final update. Everything is finished now, but I am posting here rather than in the finished maps subforum (and sending Shadire his/her (?) copy), to ask for any final comments, critiques, and suggestions. Almost everything is still changeable; the only exception is the linework. I've also put two versions: one with the red glow around important buildings, and one without.

I'll post the official finished version sometime tomorrow, depending on if there's any extra work.

Cheers,
THW

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## Deadshade

I am not specialist for town  maps but definitely no red glow. And even in the second one, you could remove the red glow around the numbers. As they are white, they are well visible anyway and I rather felt bothered by the red around.
The first idea I had looking at this map was that these ships were impossible.
Almost all berths in the harbor are occupied.
But the many outgoing ships should have left a free place in the harbor, shouldn't they ?
And as they didn't (why ?) then there is no place for the ingoing vessels either.

Well if there is a harbor master, he should hang  :Smile:

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## - Max -

I agree that the red outer glow around locations isn't necessary. For the sake of legibility, I would also get rid of the red outer glow on numbers and switch to a black or dark brown one and switch the outlined font of the legend to a plain and solid one. Last, the sea color is nice but too bright and saturated in my opinion, it distracts from the city itself. I would try to tone it down/desaturate it somehow.

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## Wingshaw

Thanks, those are excellent suggestions. I'll remove the red glow and try desaturating the water a bit. I also like the idea of doing the legend as dark text without the stroke on it.

I only just noticed that, in order to get the images to an acceptable filesize for CG the text has become hardto read: is that just my screen, or can nobody read the writing?

@Deadshade: I showed this map to my father, who is a naval history enthusiast. Apparently many medieval ports would have a large number of ships waiting at anchor in the harbour.

THW

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## Freodin

I agree with Max that the sea colour is a little too saturated.

Other than that: this map is officially amazing!

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## Chick

> I only just noticed that, in order to get the images to an acceptable filesize for CG the text has become hardto read: is that just my screen, or can nobody read the writing?
> THW


I find that keeping the size larger and using a lower quality setting on the image is more readable than the reverse.   I typically have my .jpg images at 3000-4000 px but the .jpg save quality at 3 or 4 (out of 12).  That seems more readable than 1500-2000 px at quality 8 for the same file size.

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## arsheesh

Wonderful work THW!  The line-work is great, especially for the terrain.  I was also going to suggest getting rid of the red glow surrounding the buildings and text, but sounds like several others have already addressed this.  Beautiful work.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Deadshade

> @Deadshade: I showed this map to my father, who is a naval history enthusiast. Apparently many medieval ports would have a large number of ships waiting at anchor in the harbour.
> 
> THW


I thought about that but it is excluded too. The incoming ships are all Under full sail and have the keel wave behind them showing them going hard. So they can't be on Anchor and waiting. 
It may be a detail that doesn't matter but it was the first thing I noticed - too many ships sailing Inside the harbor yet they have nowhere to go. 
As for the outgoing ships, they are only a few minutes from the harbor so they should have left plenty of free place.

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## Ilanthar

I agree with previous comments and just want to say that it's a beauty! The frame is a very nice touch.

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## Wingshaw

Thanks everyone for the comments. The finished map thread is now up, with a few of the recommended changes made, here. Unfortunately, I'm already noticing the mistakes I made, but I don't think any of them are too big, so I'll let it pass.




> I thought about that but it is excluded too. The incoming ships are all Under full sail and have the keel wave behind them showing them going hard. So they can't be on Anchor and waiting. 
> It may be a detail that doesn't matter but it was the first thing I noticed - too many ships sailing Inside the harbor yet they have nowhere to go. 
> As for the outgoing ships, they are only a few minutes from the harbor so they should have left plenty of free place.


Oh well, in that case I'll just call it artistic licence  :Wink: 




> I find that keeping the size larger and using a lower quality setting on the image is more readable than the reverse.   I typically have my .jpg images at 3000-4000 px but the .jpg save quality at 3 or 4 (out of 12).  That seems more readable than 1500-2000 px at quality 8 for the same file size.


Thanks Chick, that's a good tip to know. Strangely, I found that the poor resolution and illegibility only existed on my tablet's screen, and not my computer. I suppose it makes sense, but I've never encountered that before.

THW

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