# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Virtual Tabletop/Battlemap Mapping >  Battlemap! - Valley of Ancient bones (WIP)

## XCali

Hi everyone,  :Very Happy: 

I thought I'd post another WIP apart from Nessa'Mor. This one is the start of a series of maps in this set. 

*Feel free to use them* for PERSONAL use only. (and with friends when an RPG is involved)  :Razz: 
I am planning on selling the High res versions one of these days.  :Wink:  These are, 1660 X 2500. The original files are 2848 X 4288.

Why am I here?
Well, I've NEVER done a proper battlemap before. So this is it. I am SO new at battlemapping it's almost scary. So, I don't know what works and what does not. That is why I need feedback. Because, although I really enjoy DnD and the like. I have never played it(Nobody in my area) BUT I have listened to MANY a stream of others playing. Thus the interest in making battlemaps.

I don't know what is needed for these maps... *feedback is essential*. So, thanks in advance.  :Wink: 

The name for this map is ALSO a WIP.

With a grid. (5ft= 1 square. But the DM/GM's knows better. )


Without the grid



EDIT: Just a different version below, still WIP

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## jpstod

Personally I don't like Iso style Battle Maps. For One reason..Perspective
As a Visual ISOs can be a good tool but I have never been to keen on them.
I know ISOs are the trend right now.

For me this one is to Dark. Difficult for my old eyes to look at.

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## Josiah VE

That's really cool XCali, how did you make that? Is it some sort of 3d terrain with some filters on it?
The colour scheme isn't my favorite, but is that something you are going to change?
Right now it does remind me of some alien planet or something, which is cool too.. What's it supposed to be?
 I like that cave in there too with the lights.
Looking forward to seeing this progress

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## Mouse

I don't really know that much about battle maps, Omri, but this one I find strangely attractive as an image in its own right  :Smile:

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## kirkspencer

> Personally I don't like Iso style Battle Maps. For One reason..Perspective
> As a Visual ISOs can be a good tool but I have never been to keen on them.
> I know ISOs are the trend right now.
> 
> For me this one is to Dark. Difficult for my old eyes to look at.


Gorgeous map, but I agree with jpstod about not wanting to play on it. In addition to perspective there are the blind spots. For example, where do I place the figure standing just beyond the mound holding the cave?

I'll interrupt myself to say I have seen and enjoyed one ISO battle map. It was for a battle that required scaling a section of cliff and fortress walls. The peculiar illusions ISO provides made the mental acceptance of transitions from approach to climb to top all on a flat map surprisingly easy.

The other flaw I have with the map is the fact we know the cave is there but have no way of knowing its tactical effects. There is no measure of how large it is, or where the openings might be. And now I wonder if there are similar openings beneath the other stones.

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## The_Sleeping_Dragon

I love the map but have the following suggestions

1) Choose the one with the grid as gives gamers the most options 
2) The hexes did look slightly skewed though because of the perspective and this makes placing pieces difficult as they will overlap grids - I understand why the grid is skewed because of the perspective and that is why many gamers do not like perspective on a battlemap - it looks good but proves impractical
3) lighten the tone of the colour or go field green or desert cream (perhaps have different terrain colour versions such as white for snow bound countries, desert beige and field green) but the current colour does make it hard to see detail and if used in 40000AD play will mean ultra marines disappear (some will cheer at that)
4) the current colour would be ideal for a space based battlemap

Hope this helps

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## XCali

> Personally I don't like Iso style Battle Maps. For One reason..Perspective
> As a Visual ISOs can be a good tool but I have never been to keen on them.
> I know ISOs are the trend right now.
> 
> For me this one is to Dark. Difficult for my old eyes to look at.


Fair enough. Though, I could have made a top down battlemap. But, I wanted something more unique. Guess, I'm catering to a different type of audience with this.
 I might do one eventually.  :Wink:  
Also, as I am super new at battlemapping so I'm still testing the brightness.  :Wink:  The idea was a night map. But I'll see what will work  :Wink: 




> That's really cool XCali, how did you make that? Is it some sort of 3d terrain with some filters on it?
> The colour scheme isn't my favorite, but is that something you are going to change?
> Right now it does remind me of some alien planet or something, which is cool too.. What's it supposed to be?
>  I like that cave in there too with the lights.
> Looking forward to seeing this progress


Hehe, thanks! I appreciate it.  :Wink: 
This is a secret mix. But its roots lie in a archeological set of photos I took. Then using the rough terrain, I created textures that fitted the theme and painted all over around the set pieces. Used a lot of overlay layers to get a more 3D look to the map with shadows. 
I had a more fantasy setting in mind when I created it. Though, it can be used for a Scifi setting I suppose.  :Razz: 
Well that is what is awesome about WIP with feedback, everything can possibly change  :Wink: 





> I don't really know that much about battle maps, Omri, but this one I find strangely attractive as an image in its own right


 Thanks, Sue  :Smile:  It's a nice little experiment. So, I'll see how it goes  :Wink: 




> Gorgeous map, but I agree with jpstod about not wanting to play on it. In addition to perspective there are the blind spots. For example, where do I place the figure standing just beyond the mound holding the cave?
> 
> I'll interrupt myself to say I have seen and enjoyed one ISO battle map. It was for a battle that required scaling a section of cliff and fortress walls. The peculiar illusions ISO provides made the mental acceptance of transitions from approach to climb to top all on a flat map surprisingly easy.
> 
> The other flaw I have with the map is the fact we know the cave is there but have no way of knowing its tactical effects. There is no measure of how large it is, or where the openings might be. And now I wonder if there are similar openings beneath the other stones.


I can see the blind spot issue... I'm not entirely sure how to approach that. But I'll brainstorm about it a bit. 

I am, however, quite confused about your question about the cave. 
I will say this about the cave, I placed it there for PC's to discover if the think they might want to jump the gap to that area or scale the mound. And that can become a dungeon. I placed it for possibility. (So far it's just the one cave, with a possible exit at the end)

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## XCali

> I love the map but have the following suggestions
> 
> 1) Choose the one with the grid as gives gamers the most options 
> 2) The hexes did look slightly skewed though because of the perspective and this makes placing pieces difficult as they will overlap grids - I understand why the grid is skewed because of the perspective and that is why many gamers do not like perspective on a battlemap - it looks good but proves impractical
> 3) lighten the tone of the colour or go field green or desert cream (perhaps have different terrain colour versions such as white for snow bound countries, desert beige and field green) but the current colour does make it hard to see detail and if used in 40000AD play will mean ultra marines disappear (some will cheer at that)
> 4) the current colour would be ideal for a space based battlemap
> 
> Hope this helps


1- I'll make all versions available so players can choose  :Wink: 
2 - I actually chose a skewed grid to insert. But, I can enlarge the blocks or place a traditional top down grid?
3 - Yeah, great idea! The idea was a night map. But having different versions of might help a lot. So, thanks.  :Wink: 
4 - People are welcome to try  :Very Happy:

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## kirkspencer

> I can see the blind spot issue... I'm not entirely sure how to approach that. But I'll brainstorm about it a bit. 
> 
> I am, however, quite confused about your question about the cave. 
> I will say this about the cave, I placed it there for PC's to discover if the think they might want to jump the gap to that area or scale the mound. And that can become a dungeon. I placed it for possibility. (So far it's just the one cave, with a possible exit at the end)


Sure, let me try to be clearer.

IF I'm a player using that map, I recognize the hole might be too small for player entry. Because of the perspective I am going to use precious minutes looking for an opening in the blind spots.

Even if the only opening is the one on top of the mound:
1) It's a hat from which the GM can pull all sorts of rabbits - I can see it's occupied due to the lit candles;
2) It's a potential hole for local superiority. Not if they have mages in a fantasy system, but if my party is outnumbered 10 to 1 by non-caster types (fantasy or otherwise), the hole eliminates their ranged attack and allows my team to gang up on anything crawling in after us. 

Note that you as GM are within your rights to keep it secret till it's in play. But you as designer should have the floor developed for the GM using your battlemap in the encounter they're about to run whether available to players at start or not.

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## damonjynx

Hi XCali,

Great as a picture, as a battle mat...not so much. ISO maps are not, IMO, generally suitable for battle mats. As others have pointed out figures can't occupy squares covered by terrain and the whole perspective thing makes life for a GM unnecessarily difficult. To me, ISO maps are more for a visual reference, so GM's and players can get a really good view of the varying elevations.

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## flyenemu

XCali,

Thank you for posting this for review. I find the idea behind the map to be quite wonderful. I can see it providing a lot of immersion for players and GMs alike! It is also quite reusable, as most battles I run (in D&D) only deal with a 10x10 grid. This would allow for random encounters and most trivial combat to have a bit more 'umph' so to say. 

I do, however, share in the opinion that the colors are a bit dark, but not for all the same reasons. When I am running a game (on a tan dry erase battlemap), I like to use bright colors to note different effects and whatnot so that I can see (at a glance) what is where. I have enough to do on my end of things as a GM (monster stats, adjudicating, initiative, etc.), that I need things to be clear and easy to read. My problem with the colors has to do with the grid most of all. For me, it blends in with the rest of your work, and makes it hard to see where one ends and the other begins. 

As a player, I find the more the GM offers me on the map, the more I will use. By this I am referring to the 'hills' and 'ridges' on your map. If I was to see those in game I would think "Boy oh boy! I'm going to climb up one of those and peg baddies with my bow!". I as a GM would also like to use such wonderful terrain to exploit the benefit of enemies with flight. So, in addition to a grid with more contrast, I would recommend the grid also overlaps the map entirely. 

In conclusion, I find your work quite wonderful, and given the above mentioned changes (and the cash to burn) I would buy a dry erase mat with your print on it! :Smile:

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## XCali

Think this message glitched. Anyway...

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## XCali

> XCali,
> 
> Thank you for posting this for review. I find the idea behind the map to be quite wonderful. I can see it providing a lot of immersion for players and GMs alike! It is also quite reusable, as most battles I run (in D&D) only deal with a 10x10 grid. This would allow for random encounters and most trivial combat to have a bit more 'umph' so to say. 
> 
> I do, however, share in the opinion that the colors are a bit dark, but not for all the same reasons. When I am running a game (on a tan dry erase battlemap), I like to use bright colors to note different effects and whatnot so that I can see (at a glance) what is where. I have enough to do on my end of things as a GM (monster stats, adjudicating, initiative, etc.), that I need things to be clear and easy to read. My problem with the colors has to do with the grid most of all. For me, it blends in with the rest of your work, and makes it hard to see where one ends and the other begins. 
> 
> As a player, I find the more the GM offers me on the map, the more I will use. By this I am referring to the 'hills' and 'ridges' on your map. If I was to see those in game I would think "Boy oh boy! I'm going to climb up one of those and peg baddies with my bow!". I as a GM would also like to use such wonderful terrain to exploit the benefit of enemies with flight. So, in addition to a grid with more contrast, I would recommend the grid also overlaps the map entirely. 
> 
> In conclusion, I find your work quite wonderful, and given the above mentioned changes (and the cash to burn) I would buy a dry erase mat with your print on it!


Thank you. That is very helpful info.  :Wink:  I'll be sure to check it out. The thing I would need to figure out, is how to still convey the night feel without it being too dark.  :Razz:

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## XCali

Don't freak out!  :Razz:  

This is just an experimental build for those that did not like the idea of the height of things creating blindspots.

The main file is still safe and sound. This is a *spin-off* to see if this can be added to the *set* as an option for DM's/GM's. So let me know what you think.

I am still pondering how to make it a lot brighter without losing the 'it's night' effect. Just so you guys know.  :Wink: 

I did fiddle a bit with the brightness.

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## XCali

Hi everyone,

This is the way I'm thinking at the moment with the main Valley map. I changed the size of the middle structure. Cleaned up the floor a little. And made the map lighter.



I know there are people who enjoy the flat battlemaps more and I respect that. And I am working towards making different versions of this map. *But,* I do, and I mean, I really do also wish to make an ISO battlemap that works. So feedback that helps towards that end is very welcome.  :Wink: 



P.S. The GRID will come back too, I am just working on the map as is for now.

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## Mouse

Hey XCali  :Smile: 

Maybe ISO battle maps are more suited to spots where there is nothing in the way - a flat scene, or a scene where all the tall bits lie on the back edge of the scene.

Of course, I'm not a DM, nor even a player (having come at mapping from the point of view of a fantasy writer), so I might be wrong, and there might be plenty of battle maps done in ISO with things in the way, but which are still good to play on.  I'm really just thinking out loud here.

The other scenario I can think that an ISO map would be good is a multiple level map where the inside of a building is shown in 3 or 4 floor levels, but even then you'd have to be careful not to occlude any of the floor space by having an intricate system of rooms with only half the wall cut away to show them.

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## XCali

> Hey XCali 
> 
> Maybe ISO battle maps are more suited to spots where there is nothing in the way - a flat scene, or a scene where all the tall bits lie on the back edge of the scene.
> 
> Of course, I'm not a DM, nor even a player (having come at mapping from the point of view of a fantasy writer), so I might be wrong, and there might be plenty of battle maps done in ISO with things in the way, but which are still good to play on.  I'm really just thinking out loud here.
> 
> The other scenario I can think that an ISO map would be good is a multiple level map where the inside of a building is shown in 3 or 4 floor levels, but even then you'd have to be careful not to occlude any of the floor space by having an intricate system of rooms with only half the wall cut away to show them.


Hmmm, for a next ISO battlemap that is quite a good idea. Thanks Mouse.  :Wink: 

The levels thing I don't quite understand, but I have an idea.

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## Mouse

I've seen some maps where the floors of a house are drawn on top of each other in strict ISO perspective - like that grid I gave you on another thread when I explained what isometric perspective was.

The important thing about those maps was that the floors were actually lifted apart from each other like the layers of a dolls house, and the internal walls were all cut away, so that you could see every inch of the floor space where a player might stand  :Wink:

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## XCali

> I've seen some maps where the floors of a house are drawn on top of each other in strict ISO perspective - like that grid I gave you on another thread when I explained what isometric perspective was.
> 
> The important thing about those maps was that the floors were actually lifted apart from each other like the layers of a dolls house, and the internal walls were all cut away, so that you could see every inch of the floor space where a player might stand


Oh yeah! I understand now.  :Smile:  
It is a nice idea for when you have a zoomed in part.

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## XCali

Hi,

I thought I'd add a DUSK version of the map. See how it works.  :Wink: 



And one with a normal grid on top of it, no fancy stuff with it.

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## flyenemu

> Thank you. That is very helpful info.  I'll be sure to check it out. The thing I would need to figure out, is how to still convey the night feel without it being too dark.


XCali,

So very glad I could help! Conveying darkness of any kind (night, caves, smoke, etc.) can prove rather challenging for battle maps. When ambiance is important, I try to have my game room do the emersion for me (candles, background audio, handouts, etc.), because I prefer my maps be easer to read. This obviously doesn't help much with your situation, but I have faith you will find that happy medium between mood and functionality. I wish you the best on your work, and look forward to future updates!  :Smile:

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## XCali

> XCali,
> 
> So very glad I could help! Conveying darkness of any kind (night, caves, smoke, etc.) can prove rather challenging for battle maps. When ambiance is important, I try to have my game room do the emersion for me (candles, background audio, handouts, etc.), because I prefer my maps be easer to read. This obviously doesn't help much with your situation, but I have faith you will find that happy medium between mood and functionality. I wish you the best on your work, and look forward to future updates!


Thanks! I'll take that into account.  :Wink: 

Reminds me, I made several  updates on the previous page. I'd like to know what you think. I tried a dusk version and it can go even lighter than that.

Have a nice day  :Smile:

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## flyenemu

> Thanks! I'll take that into account. 
> 
> Reminds me, I made several  updates on the previous page. I'd like to know what you think. I tried a dusk version and it can go even lighter than that.
> 
> Have a nice day


XCali,

I have reviewed your 'dusk' version, and must say I find it much easer to read than the original. It also seems as if the grid size has also increased a bit from your previous version. Though this may help increase the visibility of the grid, it in turn shrinks the scaling of your map. This change give me the impression that the cliffs are smaller and shorter than previously indicated in the original map. I found the light blue map to be the best rendition thus far, and the extra light might be explained by a full moon. 
The more I review your maps I am reminded of past sessions, and how I (as well as other GMs) tackled the problem of elevation. Sadly, I am unable to think of any good way combat was tracked on a grid due to the limitations of 2 axis. Things can get even more crazy when you have a battle field like yours where some characters fly, others burrow, and the rest have only a land speed (not to mention when ethereal, shadow, or fey planes are involved). Have you considered using different shading to help identify changes in elevation (psudo-topographical)? This may be a way to keep the detailed map you created, while offering color to help represent another axis. Another idea might be to use a hex grid rather than square. I find hex to be much easer to work with for 'surface' play or caves, while castles and dungeons are better with square grids.
I am uncertain of the values of my post toward your end goal; however, I am excited to see how your work continues to change and improve, and will be sure to review some of my previous maps to see what help they can offer.

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## XCali

> XCali,
> 
> I have reviewed your 'dusk' version, and must say I find it much easer to read than the original. It also seems as if the grid size has also increased a bit from your previous version. Though this may help increase the visibility of the grid, it in turn shrinks the scaling of your map. This change give me the impression that the cliffs are smaller and shorter than previously indicated in the original map. I found the light blue map to be the best rendition thus far, and the extra light might be explained by a full moon. 
> The more I review your maps I am reminded of past sessions, and how I (as well as other GMs) tackled the problem of elevation. Sadly, I am unable to think of any good way combat was tracked on a grid due to the limitations of 2 axis. Things can get even more crazy when you have a battle field like yours where some characters fly, others burrow, and the rest have only a land speed (not to mention when ethereal, shadow, or fey planes are involved). Have you considered using different shading to help identify changes in elevation (psudo-topographical)? This may be a way to keep the detailed map you created, while offering color to help represent another axis. Another idea might be to use a hex grid rather than square. I find hex to be much easer to work with for 'surface' play or caves, while castles and dungeons are better with square grids.
> I am uncertain of the values of my post toward your end goal; however, I am excited to see how your work continues to change and improve, and will be sure to review some of my previous maps to see what help they can offer.


Thank you.  :Smile:  
That is solid feedback. And I appreciate you taking the time.  :Wink: 

Regarding the grid, I tried the square and bigger one out for size, I do think the first grid size is better for representing the size of the map.
I think in the end I'll have a *main* version that is shipped *with* _multiple_ different versions that has variations of grid size, grid type, without grid, different times of day.  :Wink:  Then the DM/GM's can have their choice in how they want to play it.
As you noted reusability before. I want that as a focal point.  :Wink:  And an ISO map that is easy to setup and play.

Yeah the shading is an important point, thanks. I wanted to finish the layout of the core maps first and then I'll start shading the map accordingly.

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## Josiah VE

Nice! I like the red one.  :Smile: 
I wonder if you could try and make it look like earth.

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## XCali

> Nice! I like the red one. 
> I wonder if you could try and make it look like earth.


hehe, well I never really thought of them as outer-space. Though, it is a fantasy setting. It is a night version and dusk version so far. But, I can make a daylight version if people would like that.  :Wink:

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## Josiah VE

> hehe, well I never really thought of them as outer-space. Though, it is a fantasy setting. It is a night version and dusk version so far. But, I can make a daylight version if people would like that.


Oh, whoops.  :Neutral:  The red one looks like mars to my eyes.  :Smile:

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## flyenemu

> Thank you.  
> That is solid feedback. And I appreciate you taking the time. 
> 
> Regarding the grid, I tried the square and bigger one out for size, I do think the first grid size is better for representing the size of the map.
> I think in the end I'll have a *main* version that is shipped *with* _multiple_ different versions that has variations of grid size, grid type, without grid, different times of day.  Then the DM/GM's can have their choice in how they want to play it.
> As you noted reusability before. I want that as a focal point.  And an ISO map that is easy to setup and play.
> 
> Yeah the shading is an important point, thanks. I wanted to finish the layout of the core maps first and then I'll start shading the map accordingly.


XCali,

It is my pleasure to provide useful feedback, as I have yet to actually publish anything myself >,<. I love the idea of providing multiple options for DM/GM's to pick from; I have yet to meet a storyteller who has complained about having too many options! I shall continue following your work, and offer any input I may have.  :Smile:

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## XCali

Thanks. Feedback for any map is precious. Especially when it is an experimental map like this.  :Wink: 

The next phase is probably shading.

But as of now, I am gearing up towards my Fish River Canyon hike next week.

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## XCali

Oh, Hi!

I was thinking about this battle map I did. This one was always free to use with friends. If some of you played on it and found it fun, let me know, because I have a few left in waiting with this same style.  :Wink:

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