# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  (WIP) Arch City of Nessa'Mor

## XCali

Hi everyone,

This is my very first real city map! And my first WIP on the guild, woohoo!

I started a world map and thought out a capital city for it. Nessa'Mor. Then, while I was out of action last month, I drew a rough draft of it. 

But there is a LOT for me to learn for city maps and some things are still an enigma for me, so I decided to do it here and chip away at it until the map I want, comes forth.  :Wink: 

Just a note, a year back I think I could only draw stick figures, so I'm still learning even though I've come far with it. Every tip helps!

Okay here goes...

***

A further on tie in for my map. And still a work in progress, but let me know if you enjoy it. 

~High Cliffs of NessaMor~

River of Daggers 


Side book
by
Omri Hope




Main Genre: Fantasy Epic
Genres: Adventure, Mystery, Survival, Discovery, thriller

 
Contents: 

Prologue: The chase.....................................
Chapter 1: 




What drives one to risk their lives over and over  to challenge the oppressive weight of the dark even with the smallest of lights? What indeed. Yet, that is the question that stalks me day by day as I attempt that very thing. I just hope that I can keep standing when so many before me have given up on this path. 
-Zalia Lightpaw 







Prologue
The Chase 

Small puffs drifted away as she blew out a breath in the crisp cold of the night air. A flash of memory of kids giggling at the sight was brief, but she bit her lip. This was no time to enjoy it. Danger was close.
The dagger at her side lay forgotten as her fingers tightened around the round object in her pouch. Her eyes darted to the left and the right past the tree. Close by, there was a bridge that crossed the river that lay before her. But she would not attempt to cross it tonight. What was in her possession was far too valuable to risk being discovered. This was by far the closest it had gotten to the city in the cliffs, ever. Yet those that hunted for it had only gotten more numerous over the months that it was attempted to be couriered to the heart of NessaMor. All had given up the trek in fear of the hunters.
And yet it was of the utmost importance that it reaches the city. What her brother had warned her had all but come true since leaving their hidden home.
The free fingers of her other hand glided over her forearm. Scar upon scar met them. All were new. 
Her lip quivered as her anxiety once more threatened her determination. Fear was her handicap, as it was with all. 
Though, in this she was alone.
As she glanced back, it pulled at her. To turn back. To let someone else attempt the run.
But
She squared her shoulders and looked back at the bridge, covered with guards and what she knew were those that hunted her.
This was her burden. She had come further than everyone before her and though it had only become more dangerous, her goal was not within reach.
With a flick of her hands, she tried the heavy locks of hair into a ponytail. There couldnt be anything in this run that can hold her back. Agility was everything if she had any hope of making it to the city.
Her eyes closed as she walked herself through the terrain that she needed to cross. 
The river that flowed over the edge of the very cliffs that held the city.
The path down its mighty side. Though one that was too perilous to attempt if she wanted to go unseen.
Her mind flicked to the forests that were her only route. But her way down her eyes flashed open, and taking a deep breath she tightened her cloak over her leather armours hard scales.
She strode almost silently to the rivers edge. Big rocks made the journey across possible but hard. Yet that wasnt the worry that gnawed at her bones. 
It was what would happen when she made the dash for it. 
She steeled herself and took several steps back, enough for a run.
Then with force, she made sure her one foot was solid against the ground. 
She was ready as she could be for this, though still her hands had a slight shake in them.
Zalia ran forward as fast she could. Her footfalls hard against the ground and then with a huge punch with her right foot sent her leaping through the air. 
And a loud hit, her boots landed on the biggest and furthest of the rocks in the river.
Shouts pierced the air.
Her teeth gritted. She knew this would happen. Yet, her heart still hammered in her chest. 
She ran and jumped to the next rock, not even looking towards the bridge. A few seconds passed and she landed on the ground on the other side. Once she would have greatly wanted to immediately go and boasted to her best friend of making the feat. But she needed to run. Run like she never run before. For the sake of the light she carried. For the sake of her people, she needed to run!
Her feet thundered beneath her as she dashed for the outlines of the forest under the moonlight. 
Swords being drawn and armoured figures running behind her could be heard clear as day. Still, she didnt even glance around.
The surprise had bought her a few minutes. Though she could hear the confused shouts of the guards of NessaMor, over why so many of the volunteers this night were so furiously storming after a woman.
This would have amused her to no end back home. But this was different. 

The first tree darted past her as she ran into the forests recesses. This might by her a few more seconds. But only a few. 
Those that hunted her were far wilier than they looked. She had learned that the hard way.
As she ran, she made her path as random as possible in the hope of confusing her pursuers. Though, from their incessant shouts, they were close.
She pushed her legs faster. It would only be a matter of time before she couldnt run anymore. But, she would push until the end. To her last. This was it. Unlike all the others before her, she had no way back even she wanted to give up and turn back. If they caught her now, her people
She ran faster, tears streaking over her cheeks.
With ease she leapt over the twisting roots of the forest, using some as springboards over the next. 
Her legs started burning. But at least the pursuers were further away now if just a little. 
Then she ran into a clearing, the moonlight shining brightly over the big but wonderful Dancing Trees.
She stopped at the edge of the towering trees. A part of her wanted to enjoy the moment. For years she had dreamt of seeing them. Though, never under these conditions. It pained her greatly a pang tugged at her pounding heart as her fingers touched the giant root of the one. But her mission made her straighten up. In her run her hair had come loose. The wind gently brushed through her hair.
For the first time, she looked back.
Numerous lights shined out of the forest. Zalias breath caught slightly. There were far more than even she anticipated. And the way they were fanned out, made any escape almost impossible.
A sigh weighed down on her. Deep down a hope had been there that she could take her time to get down the mighty cliffs. But it was not to be.
She walked to the edge of the cliff and watched the waves break far down below. Too far.
Fear welled up in her. 
This was madness.
But before she could turn around, she thought of her siblings. Thought of her friends. Thought of her family. And the hundreds of families that depended on her making it.
Zalia squeezed her fists until it became painful. Then she let them go in helplessness.
Then she jumped.
Wind rushed past her face as the sea came closer faster than she could have imagined. She only had seconds to react.
The crashing waves thundered below her and the urge to scream in terror was almost unbearable. But she resisted it with great effort.
She pulled out her gleaming dagger and shouted out for its light.
White illuminated the sea below her, and air rushed up her with immense force. 
Then water burst around her and consumed her in a split of a second.

Stillness and pain coiled around her like a serpent of the deep. The surface with only moonlight looked like a far off dream.
She wanted to just fade away into the dark waters.
Then Zalia woke up and clarity returned. She almost let the air out of her lungs as the pain in her chest surged to the forefront.
But she fought it off and swam up with all her might.
With force, she broke the surface. A wave struck her back underwater. And she had to cling to the little air she had left in her lungs. Her feet kicked with difficulty, but again she got to the surface, gulping in a lung full of air.
The lights of city of NessaMor shone brightly on the shore. With the help of the next wave, Zalia swam closer to the sandy shore next to the lighthouse.
A figure approached.
Fear reignited in her heart. Her dagger flashed up and her feet shifted so she could fight.
The figure pulled back her hood and all walls broke down in tears. Zalia leapt forward, crying like she had never cried before and embraced her best friend.
You made it, Lii-ca said while her own tears spilled freely.
Zalia just hugged the girl and said,
They got a chance now. They might live. 
Lets go then. They are ready.
It was hard to suppress the emotions of the moment. But Lii-ca was right. They needed to go now before her hunters realize she had made the impossible jump. She darted after her friend into the Cliff City of NessaMor. There was still more that needed to be done.


Also a FURTHER on WIP added.



*© Omri Hope 2016 - 2017.  All Rights Reserved.*

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## XCali

So, after working on the shadows for the ramp. I got to thinking of drawing a load of houses and creating a brush out of it, like I basically always do when something becomes extremely tedious. Hehe. Then somewhere I create even better brushes for it.
Okay so here is the png of the brush I am working on. It can and probably will expand as I go.

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## Galendae

I love the concept!   Fantasy cities need to have unique backdrops.  I am already stealing aspects of this idea  :Wink:

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## XCali

Hello!

I'm having trouble with my posts. Because they are invisible until a moderater check it, I can see if it actually posted. So I tried posting this earlier and it didn't go. My guess is maybe because I hit the WIP tag again? I would like to learn more about posting on this site. It's quite different.

So anyway, I decided to do away with the buildings and stuff in between the Arch. This is something that I feel was necessary. At least for the long run. 
So now I created the beginnings of a drawn buildings brush set that would make my building look a lot better and keep some consitency. (My strong suite is drawing random terrain. The precise nature of buildings is a challenge. Hehe.)

And then I went and created layers for the sea and the land down below the Arch. It took a bit, but I feel it will save a lot of time later on if I work on those apart from the rest.

I think this is 1500 version of it. So it blurs a bit. But I'm working closer to 4k on the main thing.

I placed some of the buildings that I created for the brush, so let me know what you think.  :Wink: 

Have a lovely day,
Omri

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## ChickPea

Hi Omri, you're at 7 posts now so future posts should go through automatically. (There may be a small delay within the next hour as the server only updates user status once an hour.) It's best just to be patient as your posts will come through eventually.

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## XCali

> I love the concept!   Fantasy cities need to have unique backdrops.  I am already stealing aspects of this idea


Thanks, I like thinking out of the box. I hope this end up coming together in something that is entirely unique.

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## XCali

Hello everyone.

Today I started laying down my new buildings. I do want some feedback on how it fits together.
I did think about how people would get to their homes and other buildings, so that at least works. 
But there is something I'm fiddling with. It is a city that came together as multiple cultures wanting to create a city of guilds.

 So, tell me if the layout works so far. 

Have a lovely day.
Omri Hope.

Zoomed Version,








© Omri Hope 2016. All Rights Reserved.

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## XCali

Helloooa,

Today I wanted to work on the shadows of the pathway down the mountains. I've done this on the one map for my novel. It's a tricky process, but with enough tweaking, it looks really cool.  :Very Happy: 

I'll be back on laying out the city later.

Any suggestions would be welcome. 
Have a nice day everyone  :Wink: 






© Omri Hope 2016. All Rights Reserved.

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## XCali

Hello everyone,

Today I did a few of things. I used a brush to remove that glistening thing with the cliffs. Then I added a lot more buildings with planned empty spaces for unique structures and parks.

I still want to know what you all think about the building layout and the buildings themselves.

Lastly, I was just going to throw a sea texture in for now, but then I got inspired and worked on the horizon I was planning. Was fun. Would want to know what you think.  :Wink: 

So without further ado,







P.S.
If you are interested in the nitty and gritty of the process I use, I'll gladly elaborate. So shout if it is something you want to know.

Have a lovely day,
Omri



© Omri Hope 2016-2017. All Rights Reserved.

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## XCali

Hi!

Okay, some things had been bugging me, so I started trying to make the effect less by changing the cliffs a bit. And then I was in the mood to test some colors on it too. Though the colors are just a test to see what you guys think. The waterfall is only going to get some tlc later.

There are some questions from the previous posts I'm still wondering about. But for now,




Hope to hear from you guys.
Omri

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## AaronSchmidt

I am digging the hand drawn style. The buildings are great. 

The huge cave made me think that part of this city is always in shadow. And if they are in darkness so often then that means artificial light is very necessary. So is one of the guilds a lighting guild? Do the criminal elements use the darkness to their advantage?

When I saw that huge long winding passage up the cliff face I thought it would be an arduous journey. Pilgrims from below might make the journey to the top. "What would they find there?" I think as I look at that unfinished space.

The map got my imagination moving. Thanks  :Smile:

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## XCali

> I am digging the hand drawn style. The buildings are great. 
> 
> The huge cave made me think that part of this city is always in shadow. And if they are in darkness so often then that means artificial light is very necessary. So is one of the guilds a lighting guild? Do the criminal elements use the darkness to their advantage?
> 
> When I saw that huge long winding passage up the cliff face I thought it would be an arduous journey. Pilgrims from below might make the journey to the top. "What would they find there?" I think as I look at that unfinished space.
> 
> The map got my imagination moving. Thanks


Thanks, man! I appreciate it.

Well, I'll add a temporary directional from where the sun shines from on Noonday. It never really goes overhead over Nessa'Mor, with the city being a bit more North. (Think Europe.)
But you are right, the shadow of the arch adds a different dynamic. Even on full moon nights, there are times throughout the night that a big shadow is cast over the underside of that arch.
I was thinking in the line that definitely there are criminals that use that to their advantage, and so a guild was born with the exact purpose of keeping the city safe from those that would use the shadows for malicious intent by mastering stealth for good. 
And thanks, it's a good idea to have a guild that is big on the lights for the city. I'm quite a fan of glowing stones or the like for light.

About the pilgrimage, well that I still want to think about. I'm torn between having a castle area up top or a important monument. Or ruins or a castle and a forest. Any suggestions are welcome.  :Wink: 


Anyway here is another color TEST, I'm still weighing my options on it.

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## AaronSchmidt

It is coming along. What are the guilds you are planning? What type of civilization?

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## XCali

Hi,

So I decided to pop one more thing in there. The trees up top. It can alter, but for now, it is a decent placeholder.

Secondly, the trees will have a story. I like it that way. What it is... I will brainstorm about it.

Do you like the trees idee? Or should there be a castle there?

Also the colors test for the map. I really need some good solid feedback on that. At least before I move on to bigger things.



Have a nice night.




© Omri Hope 2016-2017. All Rights Reserved.

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## J.Edward

This is an interesting approach to showing a sort of iso-like perspective.  :Smile: 
I think there's a lot of potential for interesting things done like this.
Nice work XCali  :Smile:

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## AaronSchmidt

That tree is bigger than the castles down below. So it is a bit of an yggdrasil world tree. I feel the top is a bit barren. Is it rocky up there? where is the source of the waterfall? 

Color... hmmm. I feel that if the cliff is brown and the city below is grey then a lush green up above might be interesting. It might balance the image out. Although it might also dominate and make the more important city less dominant. Worth a try?

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## Falconius

This is pretty good so far.  It looks very much like a medieval map.

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## XCali

> That tree is bigger than the castles down below. So it is a bit of an yggdrasil world tree. I feel the top is a bit barren. Is it rocky up there? where is the source of the waterfall? 
> 
> Color... hmmm. I feel that if the cliff is brown and the city below is grey then a lush green up above might be interesting. It might balance the image out. Although it might also dominate and make the more important city less dominant. Worth a try?



Thanks for the feedback.

Regarding the trees up top, because it is two different trees. I think a world tree would be MUCH larger, and though the trees up top are very big in regard to the trees I'm planning to use down below, it is not a world tree per se. But it will have a story.

Secondly, I've only started thinking what comes up top, so it will come eventually. The same with the waterfall, I decide to give a little bit of tlc later on. 

About the color, good idea, I'll give it a try. 
(Side note, to answer a previous question, I'm still brainstorming on the civilisation and the guilds.)

Hope that answer some things.

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## XCali

> This is an interesting approach to showing a sort of iso-like perspective. 
> I think there's a lot of potential for interesting things done like this.
> Nice work XCali


Thank you. I appreciate it.  :Very Happy:

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## XCali

Hi,

I tried the grass up top and it doesn't look too bad. What do you guys think?

Then I started with the waterfall, tried something with it disappearing underground. But if that doesn't work, I'll just make a river bottom.

Let me know what you think.  :Wink: 










© Omri Hope 2016-2017. All Rights Reserved.

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## XCali

Hello!

Thought I'd take a wack at the ocean while I am at it.

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## Chashio

I like this.  :Smile:  

I might suggest lightening the grass a bit, as light tends to brighten flat, horizontal surfaces a lot, but this is pretty cool. Waterfalls are really difficult to make look right, and harder when they're right on the edge of the picture like that, but I think it reads ok for the most part. Nice work on this. It has a very interesting, epic feel to it.  :Smile:

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## Mouse

I really like your cliffs  :Smile: 

Since you are working on the ocean, how about fading it out more at the edge?

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## XCali

> I like this.  
> 
> I might suggest lightening the grass a bit, as light tends to brighten flat, horizontal surfaces a lot, but this is pretty cool. Waterfalls are really difficult to make look right, and harder when they're right on the edge of the picture like that, but I think it reads ok for the most part. Nice work on this. It has a very interesting, epic feel to it.


Thanks!  :Very Happy: 
It is a definitely a change of pace figuring out how to tackle this type of map.  :Smile: 
A few questions though, with the light, do you mean light the grass as a whole or just areas of it? (Though, I'm thinking of putting a forest up top and maybe a castle.) 

And, I just started with the falls today. But, if you would recommend a change in it, what would it be?

(Again thanks)




> I really like your cliffs 
> 
> Since you are working on the ocean, how about fading it out more at the edge?


Thanks a bunch!

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand what you mean... Can you elaborate on it, please?

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## Chashio

> Thanks! 
> It is a definitely a change of pace figuring out how to tackle this type of map. 
> A few questions though, with the light, do you mean light the grass as a whole or just areas of it? (Though, I'm thinking of putting a forest up top and maybe a castle.) 
> 
> And, I just started with the falls today. But, if you would recommend a change in it, what would it be?
> 
> (Again thanks)


I love the look and challenge of perspective-type maps  :Smile: 
I mean all of the grass; as a plane/flat surface it would perhaps read better next to the lighter ground areas you have... not quite that light, maybe just half or so toward the lighter value of the other flat ground. Under heavy forest it would obviously be shaded and what you have currently would work well.  :Wink: 

For the falls, I would say... soften the hard edge at the top to suggest the falls have a bit more force flowing over the edge of the cliff instead of just dropping straight down in a trickle... there's usually a bit of a curve as water flows off the edge of stuff, but you probably won't need much.
Also, you might pull the bottom left edge of the falls more to the right, and shade a bit of the cliff to the left of the falls where it curves away from the sunlight so it looks like it goes back in behind the fall [especially toward the bottom, to give it some breathing room as the fall disappears into the hole]. As it is, your falls appear to hug the shape of the cliff a lot and these adjustments should help it read better, unless you want the water to be a thin sheet racing down a steep slope... which could be interesting as well.  :Smile: 

Let me know if that didn't clear things up.  :Wink: 

Edit: Also, take a look at some of the waterfalls in Iceland for some similar examples of what I'm talking about on that second point... particularly Skogafoss, Svartifoss, and Haifoss.

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## XCali

> I love the look and challenge of perspective-type maps 
> I mean all of the grass; as a plane/flat surface it would perhaps read better next to the lighter ground areas you have... not quite that light, maybe just half or so toward the lighter value of the other flat ground. Under heavy forest it would obviously be shaded and what you have currently would work well. 
> 
> For the falls, I would say... soften the hard edge at the top to suggest the falls have a bit more force flowing over the edge of the cliff instead of just dropping straight down in a trickle... there's usually a bit of a curve as water flows off the edge of stuff, but you probably won't need much.
> 
> Also, you might pull the bottom left edge of the falls more to the right, and shade a bit of the cliff to the left of the falls where it curves away from the sunlight so it looks like it goes back in behind the fall [especially toward the bottom, to give it some breathing room as the fall disappears into the hole]. As it is, your falls appear to hug the shape of the cliff a lot and these adjustments should help it read better, unless you want the water to be a thin sheet racing down a steep slope... which could be interesting as well. 
> 
> Let me know if that didn't clear things up. 
> 
> Edit: Also, take a look at some of the waterfalls in Iceland for some similar examples of what I'm talking about on that second point... particularly Skogafoss, Svartifoss, and Haifoss.


Thanks a lot, that is definitely useful. I tried it a bit. See if I went in the direction you prescribed.  :Wink: 





***

One last one for today, I started a cave into the cliff,


What do you guys think?

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## XCali

On top of the morning everyone,

Today I started out with the beach. I used a photo I took a while back to get the effect. So tell me what you think.  :Wink: 

I'm happy so far with the cave and the changes to the waterfall, but I would like your feedback on it.

The rest was just cleaning up and adding a little detail to the trees.

So here it is,

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## Chashio

That looks good, yes.  :Smile:  
Nice sandy beach.  :Smile: 
You even got the little wall sconces (?) in the cave!  :Very Happy:

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## Mouse

Elaborating on the water edge...

Here is a travel guide picture I borrowed from a quick Google image search to show what I mean:



I know this is a tropical beach, and the water here is very much more clear than it would be in a stormy temperate zone where there is far more sand being churned up in the water all the time, but it demonstrates reasonably well that the colour of the water tends to be transparent at the edge, allowing the colour of the beach to show through.

On most beaches the hardest line is the strand line, where the high tide pushes all the debris to the top of the beach.

Hope that helps  :Smile:

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## XCali

> That looks good, yes.  
> Nice sandy beach. 
> You even got the little wall sconces (?) in the cave!


Thanks! 
The sandy beach is made from a photo taken of clouds. And the sconces, yeah one could say that or even torches. Same difference in this regard.  :Very Happy:  But thanks.




> Elaborating on the water edge...
> ...
> ...
> I know this is a tropical beach, and the water here is very much more clear than it would be in a stormy temperate zone where there is far more sand being churned up in the water all the time, but it demonstrates reasonably well that the colour of the water tends to be transparent at the edge, allowing the colour of the beach to show through.
> 
> On most beaches, the hardest line is the strand line, where the high tide pushes all the debris to the top of the beach.
> 
> Hope that helps


Yeah sorry, I understand the concept. hehe, didn't put two and two together. 

***
Anyway, this is an EXPERIMENTAL build. I tried my hand at the ocean fading thing. (But I have to admit, I really don't know how you guys go to work with solving that(or with how to make the ocean more believable apart from waves). Maybe I'm not approaching it the right way. It is a bit of an enigma still. 
The way I tried it in this build was using the same texture in different layers and selection of the land with gaussian blur and low opacity to try it. But it's not how I want it yet... As I said, a bit of an enigma.  :Question: 

Okay, next I tried out the forest with some shadows and then the CHOCOLATE HILLS for a bit of unique flavour. I don't know if it works or not. But this is an experimental build to try out ideas. So I'm all ears.

Have a nice day.  :Very Happy: 
(P.S. I work in GIMP 2.6)

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## Mouse

Hey XCali  :Smile: 

I use all kinds of software - GIMP is in my toolbox too  :Wink: 

The water is definitely an improvement.  The hard edge of it is quite a lot les dominating than it was before.  Have you tried using a layer mask and manually masking the edge on the mask?

If you don't know what I'm talking about just say  :Wink: 

The trees are all quite similar, which is just a tiny bit distracting when the city itself should be the focal point, but that might just be the way you like them.

The hills do seem to be floating just a bit.  That's because you have a shadow that goes right underneath them.  Try adjusting the shadow or removing it (as long as that doesn't also remove the hill shading on the side of the hill) and see what you think?

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## XCali

> Hey XCali 
> 
> I use all kinds of software - GIMP is in my toolbox too 
> 
> The water is definitely an improvement.  The hard edge of it is quite a lot les dominating than it was before.  Have you tried using a layer mask and manually masking the edge on the mask?
> 
> If you don't know what I'm talking about just say 
> 
> The trees are all quite similar, which is just a tiny bit distracting when the city itself should be the focal point, but that might just be the way you like them.
> ...


Hmmm,

Okay so took away the worst of the shadows, so the Chocolate hills looks better. But the trees thing is bugging me. I like creating brushes for my forests so that I don't have to do an entire forest by hand. So, I'm not sure how I should tackle it.
I did create some more trees. Maaaybe that helps?
(Are the trees in the city below okay like that?)

But anyway the big thing I'm testing on the experimental build is if the CHOCOLATE HILLS work?



***

I checked out a tutorial on Layer Masks today, so I understand the idea of it. But how do you create a better ocean with it?

Thanks in advance.

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## Mouse

Trees are really difficult.  I've just been making a top view tree set of my own, and its hard to know how many different brushes/symbols you need to be able to paste them around a map without any two adjacent ones looking the same, but I've settled on about 4-5 variations minimum where they will be scattered around thinly between the buildings for the most part.  If I was doing a woodland or forest I'd certainly make about ten different tree brushes/symbols, or the same tree would appear too often too close to itself.

Depends on the scale and style of the map, of course, since a lot of regional maps are covered in just one tree symbol.  That's because it would be really difficult to tell two different trees apart when they are about the size of a pencil lead.  The map I am making is going to be one that people can download and zoom into with Campaign Cartographer, which has unlimited zoom, so they could end up being printed out as large as a large scale dungeon map, and in my mind they should look significantly different at that scale.

Using a mask to fade something out:

There are always lots of different ways to do the same job, and my method is only one of them.  There are also very many far more experienced GIMP users here on the forum, who could probably give you a better method than this one.  But this is how I would do it, if the map was mine to draw  :Smile: 

Start with an ocean layer that has not had the edge faded. 

Right click the layer and pick 'Make Layer Mask', and choose the option 'Layer's Alpha Channel'  (This should give you a black and white layer mask to the right of the layer image in the layer panel.)Right click the layer again and choose 'Alpha to Selection' (This will give you the crawling ants around the edge of your ocean).Move your cursor to the inside of the selected area on the image itself and right click again.Pick Select/Invert <- this is really important! Go to Select/Feather, and put a fairly high number in there before clicking ok (For the size of the image you have uploaded about 200 px - more if the original is larger than the exported image)Make sure you have clicked the little black and white layer mask in the layers palette, and choose a large soft edged brush (one of the default ones set to about 300 px will do), and set your foreground colour to black (for transparent), then draw directly onto the image the outline of your shoreline. (if you start to see black instead of transparent on your image at this point, then you are drawing on the layer, and not the layer mask, and should undo, then click the layer mask a second time before trying again)


This may not give you a perfect finish, since the view is ISO, and the mask has been feathered evenly by the software as if for a top down view, but I think you can probably judge for yourself just how far to go into the sea so that the fading looks appropriate to the scene.  

The beauty of doing it this way is that you haven't deleted anything from the layer itself.  You have only hidden it.  So if you don't like the effect you can simply delete the layer mask by right clicking the layer and choosing 'Delete Layer Mask'

I really hope I got all these instructions right, and that they are helpful to you  :Smile:

----------


## AaronSchmidt

The ocean is looking much better!  Keep working on the top. The picture is coming along.

----------


## XCali

Ah! Thanks guys. Every bit helps.

(To Mouse: Awesome! I'll try the mask somewhere. Thanks for taking the time.  :Wink:  Also I tried making a set of trees consisting of more than 10 originals like you said. So hopefully they do the job. ) 

***
Okay so this is still very experimental, but I tried a whole new set of trees up top. Tell me if it works.  :Wink:  
And if something else catch your eye give a shout.  :Wink: 



Have a wonderful day.  :Very Happy:

----------


## Mouse

Again - much better  :Smile: 

You keep making huge improvements every time.  This time its the trees and the chocolate hills.

Just a tip here - If you do more to that forest on top be careful not to group the same tree together in the same place.  Try to keep them all mixed up with each other, so its difficult to spot the same tree twice in the crowd of them  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

> Again - much better 
> 
> You keep making huge improvements every time.  This time its the trees and the chocolate hills.
> 
> Just a tip here - If you do more to that forest on top be careful not to group the same tree together in the same place.  Try to keep them all mixed up with each other, so its difficult to spot the same tree twice in the crowd of them


Thanks, Mouse. I really appreciate it.  :Smile: 

Okay, so I tried placing the trees more randomly on the next part. I was wondering if the forest layout fits up top. And I tried those trees bottom while leaving one section of the old trees for reference. So I hope it works.

The chocolate hills can stay?

----------


## Mouse

I think I'm liking these new trees a whole lot better than the first set  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

Hello everyone,

Today I finished the preliminary plan for the tree layout. Also, for now, the chocolate hills are staying.

The plan now is getting the ocean to a better place, though I have begun thinking about how to tackle the buildings. I'm not too sure what needs to happen there ...  :Question:   I would really like some ideas about that. It's a bit of a headscratcher to me.
(My line of thought at the moment is, maybe to add some texture to their walls. OR maybe give them more of a 3D feel.

So numbering the list of priorities would be,
1. Ocean *
2. Ocean Layer Mask
3. Buildings ***
4. The Big trees on the edge.
5. Cleaning the edge of the cliff.
6. Clean up the land up top. **
7. Tackling the OLD buildings that still hug the cliff. The one to the right is fine for now. **
8. The border. (Still new territory.) 

(*** stars = bigger project and quite important.)

If there is anything else I should look into, just shout.

Here is the build so far,

----------


## XCali

A tie in for my map. And still a work in progress, but let me know if you enjoy it.  :Very Happy: 

~High Cliffs of Nessa’Mor~

River of Daggers   


Side book
by
Omri Hope




Main Genre: Fantasy Epic
Genres: Adventure, Mystery, Survival, Discovery, thriller

 
Contents: 

Prologue: The chase.....................................
Chapter 1: 




“”What drives one to risk their lives over and over … to challenge the oppressive weight of the dark even with the smallest of lights? What indeed. Yet, that is the question that stalks me day by day as I attempt that very thing. I just hope that I can keep standing when so many before me have given up on this path.“” 
-Zalia Lightpaw 







                                               Prologue
				             The Chase 

Small puffs drifted away as she blew out a breath in the crisp cold of the night air. A flash of memory of kids giggling at the sight was brief, but she bit her lip. This was no time to enjoy it. Danger was close.
The dagger at her side lay forgotten as her fingers tightened around the round object in her pouch. Her eyes darted to the left and the right past the tree. Close by, there was a bridge that crossed the river that lay before her. But she would not attempt to cross it tonight. What was in her possession was far too valuable to risk being discovered. This was by far the closest it had gotten to the city in the cliffs, ever. Yet those that hunted for it had only gotten more numerous over the months that it was attempted to be couriered to the heart of Nessa’Mor. All had given up the trek in fear of the hunters.
And yet it was of the utmost importance that it reaches the city. What her brother had warned her had all but come true since leaving their hidden home.
The free fingers of her other hand glided over her forearm. Scar upon scar met them. All were new. 
Her lip quivered as her anxiety once more threatened her determination. Fear was her handicap, as it was with all. 
Though, in this she was alone.
As she glanced back, it pulled at her. To turn back. To let someone else attempt the run.
But…
She squared her shoulders and looked back at the bridge, covered with guards and what she knew were those that hunted her.
This was her burden. She had come further than everyone before her and though it had only become more dangerous, her goal was not within reach.
With a flick of her hands, she tried the heavy locks of hair into a ponytail. There couldn’t be anything in this run that can hold her back. Agility was everything if she had any hope of making it to the city.
Her eyes closed as she walked herself through the terrain that she needed to cross. 
The river that flowed over the edge of the very cliffs that held the city.
The path down its mighty side. Though one that was too perilous to attempt if she wanted to go unseen.
Her mind flicked to the forests that were her only route. But her way down… her eyes flashed open, and taking a deep breath she tightened her cloak over her leather armour’s hard scales.
She strode almost silently to the river’s edge. Big rocks made the journey across possible but hard. Yet that wasn’t the worry that gnawed at her bones. 
It was what would happen when she made the dash for it.  
She steeled herself and took several steps back, enough for a run.
Then with force, she made sure her one foot was solid against the ground. 
She was ready as she could be for this, though still her hands had a slight shake in them.
Zalia ran forward as fast she could. Her footfalls hard against the ground and then with a huge punch with her right foot sent her leaping through the air. 
And a loud hit, her boots landed on the biggest and furthest of the rocks in the river.
Shouts pierced the air.
Her teeth gritted. She knew this would happen. Yet, her heart still hammered in her chest. 
She ran and jumped to the next rock, not even looking towards the bridge. A few seconds passed and she landed on the ground on the other side. Once she would have greatly wanted to immediately go and boasted to her best friend of making the feat. But she needed to run. Run like she never run before. For the sake of the light she carried. For the sake of her people, she needed to run!
Her feet thundered beneath her as she dashed for the outlines of the forest under the moonlight. 
Swords being drawn and armoured figures running behind her could be heard clear as day. Still, she didn’t even glance around.
The surprise had bought her a few minutes. Though she could hear the confused shouts of the guards of Nessa’Mor, over why so many of the volunteers this night were so furiously storming after a woman.
This would have amused her to no end back home. But this was different. 

The first tree darted past her as she ran into the forest’s recesses. This might by her a few more seconds. But only a few. 
Those that hunted her were far wilier than they looked. She had learned that the hard way.
As she ran, she made her path as random as possible in the hope of confusing her pursuers. Though, from their incessant shouts, they were close.
She pushed her legs faster. It would only be a matter of time before she couldn’t run anymore. But, she would push until the end. To her last. This was it. Unlike all the others before her, she had no way back even she wanted to give up and turn back. If they caught her now, her people…
She ran faster, tears streaking over her cheeks.
With ease she leapt over the twisting roots of the forest, using some as springboards over the next. 
Her legs started burning. But at least the pursuers were further away now if just a little. 
Then she ran into a clearing, the moonlight shining brightly over the big but wonderful Dancing Trees.
She stopped at the edge of the towering trees. A part of her wanted to enjoy the moment. For years she had dreamt of seeing them. Though, never under these conditions. It pained her greatly… a pang tugged at her pounding heart as her fingers touched the giant root of the one. But her mission made her straighten up. In her run her hair had come loose. The wind gently brushed through her hair.
For the first time, she looked back.
Numerous lights shined out of the forest. Zalia’s breath caught slightly. There were far more than even she anticipated. And the way they were fanned out, made any escape almost impossible.
A sigh weighed down on her. Deep down a hope had been there that she could take her time to get down the mighty cliffs. But it was not to be.
She walked to the edge of the cliff and watched the waves break far down below. Too far.
Fear welled up in her. 
This was madness.
But before she could turn around, she thought of her siblings. Thought of her friends. Thought of her family. And the hundreds of families that depended on her making it.
Zalia squeezed her fists until it became painful. Then she let them go in helplessness.
Then she jumped.
Wind rushed past her face as the sea came closer faster than she could have imagined. She only had seconds to react.
The crashing waves thundered below her and the urge to scream in terror was almost unbearable. But she resisted it with great effort.
She pulled out her gleaming dagger and shouted out for its light.
White illuminated the sea below her, and air rushed up her with immense force. 
Then water burst around her and consumed her in a split of a second.

Stillness and pain coiled around her like a serpent of the deep. The surface with only moonlight looked like a far off dream.
She wanted to just fade away into the dark waters.
Then Zalia woke up and clarity returned. She almost let the air out of her lungs as the pain in her chest surged to the forefront.
But she fought it off and swam up with all her might.
With force, she broke the surface. A wave struck her back underwater. And she had to cling to the little air she had left in her lungs. Her feet kicked with difficulty, but again she got to the surface, gulping in a lung full of air.
The lights of city of Nessa’Mor shone brightly on the shore. With the help of the next wave, Zalia swam closer to the sandy shore next to the lighthouse.
A figure approached.
Fear reignited in her heart. Her dagger flashed up and her feet shifted so she could fight.
The figure pulled back her hood and all walls broke down in tears. Zalia leapt forward, crying like she had never cried before and embraced her best friend.
“You made it,” Lii-ca said while her own tears spilled freely.
Zalia just hugged the girl and said,
“They got a chance now. They might live.” 
“Let’s go then. They are ready.”
It was hard to suppress the emotions of the moment. But Lii-ca was right. They needed to go now before her hunters realize she had made the impossible jump. She darted after her friend into the Cliff City of Nessa’Mor. There was still more that needed to be done.

----------


## Mouse

Hey XCali  :Smile: 

Thank you for showing us some of the story  :Smile: 

With regard to the map...

IMHO I don't think you have too much further to go, really.  It has a style all of its own already, and it conveys the scene and the information perfectly well.  There is nothing actually 'wrong' with any of it, so if you carry on working on it from here to change things to better suit your taste, its really up to you  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Hey XCali 
> 
> Thank you for showing us some of the story 
> 
> With regard to the map...
> 
> IMHO I don't think you have too much further to go, really.  It has a style all of its own already, and it conveys the scene and the information perfectly well.  There is nothing actually 'wrong' with any of it, so if you carry on working on it from here to change things to better suit your taste, its really up to you



Thanks. I really do appreciate it.

I do feel a lot of things are coming together. But the border is still extremely new territory for me and the names are something I still need to figure out how to do it justice.

I think if I look at it, I would want it to be an epic map in the end. So ever bit that helps cut the statue out the rock helps. Yes, it is rare kind of style for a map. But there is a lot I still need to learn. A lot is just experimental, with only feedback to help guide it through the dark. Just to say how much feedback helps, the ocean and the forest would have been completely bland if you didn't help me in that regard. So thank you.

I think I want this map to not just be some pet project, but something that inspires. So, I feel there is still a lot to do and learn until then. Hope that makes sense.  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

Hi!

Okay, so I was working on a battle map I'm busy with and landed on a new land texture, so, with it, I opted for new grass up top for this map. So I hope it works. 

And then I got busy with the roads and the Buildings against the cliffs. With a bonus of little pathways for them too.

So let me know what you think.

### Latest WIP ###

----------


## XCali

Hi!

I was feeling inspired. So here is the last one for today. Added ... Hmmm, I'm not quite sure what you call that sidebar on maps?  :Question: 

Anyway, I tried the Endor font for the test. So, let's see if it works.  :Very Happy: 

Have a wonderful day,
Omri







© Omri Hope 2016-2017. All Rights Reserved.

----------


## Mouse

The side bar thing I think you are talking about is most commonly called a legend.  If you number the main places of interest in your city you can list them by number in the legend.  It saves obscuring the fine details of your city with lots of name labels.

Sometimes that space is used for a key.  A key is similar to a legend, but its used to explain what various symbols on the map mean.  You will most usually find a key on an Ordnance Survey type map, where villages, towns, and cities are represented by different size/colour spots.

That's a really nice grass texture, by the way  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> The side bar thing I think you are talking about is most commonly called a legend.  If you number the main places of interest in your city you can list them by number in the legend.  It saves obscuring the fine details of your city with lots of name labels.
> 
> Sometimes that space is used for a key.  A key is similar to a legend, but its used to explain what various symbols on the map mean.  You will most usually find a key on an Ordnance Survey type map, where villages, towns, and cities are represented by different size/colour spots.
> 
> That's a really nice grass texture, by the way


Thanks.  :Smile: 

I have to admit, I'm going to deep uncharted waters with City map legend. Never done it before. 

That and how to exactly tackle the buildings is really a challenge at the moment. 

Have a nice day Mouse and thanks for all the tips so far.  :Wink:

----------


## Mouse

Buildings.... Hmmn...

They are hand drawn, and have a lovely personal style that doesn't seem to be struggling to imitate something else.  I wouldn't change them (unless you really hate them or something).

Maybe, since you have made the roads and the trees and grass relatively dark and colourful you might consider a touch of colour on the rooftops?  Not too much, though.  Not too dark.  At the moment they stand out clearly because there is that light/dark contrast, but maybe just very slightly reduce that contrast by adding just a little shading and colour - a bit like a tidy watercolour, perhaps?

I don't know - and others will probably have different ideas.  Maybe you will suddenly have an idea of your own about how you want them to look  :Smile: 

Numbering on a city map is something I've never done, but I assume its like labelling.  The numbers would have to be close to the thing they relate to so that there is no ambiguity about which building or area they are metaphorically attached to, but placed in such a way as to not get in the way of the general view.  It can be a tricky thing to do, and you may need to give each number a slight halo of white so that it doesn't get all tangled up with the line work of the map.

----------


## XCali

Hello, everyone!  :Very Happy: 

For the heck of it, I tried a storm over the seas. *Keep it or not?*  :Question: 

Also, I made some changes to the shoreline. (In the water)








> Buildings.... Hmmn...
> 
> They are hand drawn, and have a lovely personal style that doesn't seem to be struggling to imitate something else.  I wouldn't change them (unless you really hate them or something).
> 
> Maybe, since you have made the roads and the trees and grass relatively dark and colourful you might consider a touch of colour on the rooftops?  Not too much, though.  Not too dark.  At the moment they stand out clearly because there is that light/dark contrast, but maybe just very slightly reduce that contrast by adding just a little shading and colour - a bit like a tidy watercolour, perhaps?
> 
> I don't know - and others will probably have different ideas.  Maybe you will suddenly have an idea of your own about how you want them to look 
> 
> Numbering on a city map is something I've never done, but I assume its like labelling.  The numbers would have to be close to the thing they relate to so that there is no ambiguity about which building or area they are metaphorically attached to, but placed in such a way as to not get in the way of the general view.  It can be a tricky thing to do, and you may need to give each number a slight halo of white so that it doesn't get all tangled up with the line work of the map.


Thanks, that was definitely food for thought.

Though how do you propose changing just the roofs? The buildings are on their own layer. *So maybe Alpha to selection and carefully paint over the roofs with low opacity, or how would you approach it?*

I'm going to add one in a minute with a wholesale quick change.

----------


## Mouse

You could always add the colour on a new layer?

That way you could just delete the colour layer if it doesn't work out right for you  :Wink: 

EDIT: the stormy sky is terrific.  The layer seems to have slipped a bit, though.  There's a distracting white line along the top edge of the grass?

----------


## XCali

> You could always add the colour on a new layer?
> 
> That way you could just delete the colour layer if it doesn't work out right for you 
> 
> EDIT: the stormy sky is terrific.  The layer seems to have slipped a bit, though.  There's a distracting white line along the top edge of the grass?



Thanks! I thought it would add some character.  :Very Happy: 

(Yeah, I saw the white lines after I posted it. Fixed most of it already. Thanks for the heads up anyway.  :Wink:  )

It's a good idea the layer thing. Though a bit tricky... I have my buildings on three layers, Front Buildings, Buildings and Back buildings, it makes it easier to slip in new buildings. But it's only slightly tricky, I'll try the color layer for them anyway.   :Very Happy: 

I tried a slight brown on them, see how it looks.  :Wink: 



Next, I'll try a texture with opacity. Maybe that would add something.

----------


## Mouse

I don't think opacity will really work, but you have to try these things.

how about using a bit more colour, like tile colour.  The rest of the map is nice and colourful, so as long as you don't go full-on pure red or anything it should compliment the greens and blues quite nicely.

EDIT: you could move the colour layer above all the houses layers and only have to do one?

EDIT 2: try varying the roof colour between buildings as well - just very tiny variations  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

Hello everyone,  :Very Happy: 

Today I started with the buildings, trying to make them fit better with a colourful map. 

Made a layer above the buildings layer, (alpha to selction to have JUST the buildings selected) 19.6 opacity Multiply with the grass texture as brown. Then duplicated the builings layer with 52 opacity and played with Brightness and contrass to give them a bit of pop.
(Edit: I went back to try it again, to get the brown stand out again on new buildings. A bit tricky I have to admit.
~Alpha to selection BUILDINGS~ NB!
Multiply layer TOP - 19,6 opacity -For this I used a brown version of my Grass texture up top. Just dragged and dropped it.
Duplicate of Drawn Buildings layer - 52 opacity - On one of the Duplicate layers I played around with colourize to get the brown to pop a bit more.
Duplicate of Drawn Buildings layer - 52 opacity - LOW Brightness, HIGHER contrast. NB! 
Drawn buildings layer - Bottom ) (This will get you close to what I have going on the map with the drawn buildings having more colour, but being able to stand out more at the same time. Take this as one way of doing it. I experimented and it came out nice.)

So tell me if the buildings work. :Question: 
I'll add reference too.

Attempt


REFERENCE


EDIT: (to Mouse, after playing with the buildings this way, I feel they can stay. For now at the very least.  :Wink:  Also I was thinking about what you said about not going too dark. So is it okay like this? )

----------


## XCali

Hi,

This is the *second* one for today, 
I tried out my legend and the number icons. I'm feeling around in the dark with this. I have almost NO idea what works and not with this. Though it is an attempt. So be sure to tell me if I'm getting it horribly wrong with this.

And thus I have a lot of questions regarding my feeling around in the dark:
Are the lines the right color or the icons too big. Is where I'm taking the lines alright. Is the font I'm using for the legend working or not? 

Have a nice day,

----------


## Mouse

Hey XCali  :Smile: 

Its all looking really good.

I like the way you've done the rooftops and left the detail of the buildings nice and clean so we can still see all the details you have drawn on them.

With the labelling its always a matter of taste and personal style, so in a sense we are all experimenting all the time.  The thing to do if you don't feel entirely comfortable with the way something has turned out, then try a few different variations (remembering to save each one under a different filename).

With my personal taste I would probably leave the circles around the numbers on the map white or cream, so that they stand out as being separated from the map.  They blend rather a lot with it right now, but they are still legible.  Its up to you to decide how much you want them to stand out.

With the legend I only have two suggestions.  The first is to make number 1 'Entrance to the inner city', rather than just 'to the inner city'.  The second is to use a space either side of the hyphen, so that all the lines of the legend have the same format.  At the moment you have irregular spacing on those lines with the hyphen sometimes being spaced, and sometimes not.

I hope that helps  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Hey XCali 
> 
> Its all looking really good.
> 
> I like the way you've done the rooftops and left the detail of the buildings nice and clean so we can still see all the details you have drawn on them.
> 
> With the labelling its always a matter of taste and personal style, so in a sense we are all experimenting all the time.  The thing to do if you don't feel entirely comfortable with the way something has turned out, then try a few different variations (remembering to save each one under a different filename).
> 
> With my personal taste I would probably leave the circles around the numbers on the map white or cream, so that they stand out as being separated from the map.  They blend rather a lot with it right now, but they are still legible.  Its up to you to decide how much you want them to stand out.
> ...


Thanks! 
I have to say, I'm liking the buildings the way they are now too. (Though admittingly, I'm unsure how I got the redbrown effect like that. Hehe, I wrote down the basics of it, but when I tried recreating it today, I got close but not entirely the same. But it is just a little snag.  :Razz:  )

This really got me thinking, so thank you.

I'm still not sure what would work best... There are some really beloved fantasy maps out there that have the labels close by. And then there are maps with circle icons with numbers that works quite nicely. 

I'll try as many as necessary versions before I settle with one. This ATTEMPT has TWO parts. 
1. The labels close by. (How's the legibility? -even though it is the lower res 2k version.)
2. The legend on the Nessa'Mor bar. (Though I'm pondering if I should leave the bar out altogether and just have the names on the map.)

***
Maybe I'd have two versions of the map. The label-light one and the DM/GM label-heavy version. What do you guys think?



*I have an additional question. I'm starting to think about the border, but let's say, as a start, I create a bottom layer with a nice paper texture maybe, how do you center the map image perfectly to that layer? (Hope the question makes sense.)

Have a lovely day,

----------


## XCali

Hi everyone,  :Very Happy: 

Aside from the questions in the previous post. This is just trying the other route of not having a legend on the Nessa'Mor bar. So let me know what works best so far.

Also! I added a lighthouse. It came out quite nice. So now I have to decide on a name. An EPIC name.

Here are the contenders for the poll so far:
1. Dawnflare Tower 
2. Stormlight Guidepost (Stormlight Beacon?) (Stormlight Signal?)
3. Firestorm Signal (Firestorm Beacon?)
4. Sunbeam Tower
5. Grand Beacon

Any ideas what to call the forest up top?



EDIT: The left front buildings bugged me a bit, so I tried something different. If the colour does not work on them, I'll change it.

----------


## XCali

Hi everyone,  :Very Happy: 

Today is just an update, I'm still pondering the questions from the previous two posts.

But for this post, I tackled the shoreline to make it more natural. Secondly, I just touched the roads. Though this lower res jpeg doesn't show the changes to the road as much.




Have a wonderful day,  :Very Happy: 
Omri

----------


## Mouse

Oops!  Sorry XCali - missed a couple of posts there.

Naming things was never my strong point.  I think whichever sounds best will suddenly hit you, and that will be its name  :Smile: 

Labelling the city itself is certainly working for you, though you might want to be consistent with the alignment of your labels where you use more than one line.  Some are centre aligned, while others are left aligned.

That's a really nice looking lighthouse, and the various roof shades work well.  I wouldn't try to make them all the same.  That just wouldn't look half as pretty  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Oops!  Sorry XCali - missed a couple of posts there.
> 
> Naming things was never my strong point.  I think whichever sounds best will suddenly hit you, and that will be its name 
> 
> Labelling the city itself is certainly working for you, though you might want to be consistent with the alignment of your labels where you use more than one line.  Some are centre aligned, while others are left aligned.
> 
> That's a really nice looking lighthouse, and the various roof shades work well.  I wouldn't try to make them all the same.  That just wouldn't look half as pretty


Thanks! I appreciate it.
And the feedback on the buildings is definitely good to hear.

Fort
Silvermane   I guess that was the one with the alignment problem. Though... the left aligned of that one bugs me a bit. But, I'm hearing you. I'll try it out. 

Also... I've been wondering if creating a nice gold colour for the font with a black lining if that would work better for legibility? (I'll try to throw a sample on my next update after this.)

***
This is just me starting to think about the border. Totally uncharted waters, but I'll try.

----------


## Mouse

You could turn them all centrally aligned?

A quick note about the border here - You really need the same gap all the way around to do a decent looking border - unless you have one of the four sides vastly bigger than the other three for text or something like that.

On the label front - labels are more visible if there is a reasonably high contrast with the lining, so if you go gold, go very pale gold  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

> You could turn them all centrally aligned?
> 
> A quick note about the border here - You really need the same gap all the way around to do a decent looking border - unless you have one of the four sides vastly bigger than the other three for text or something like that.
> 
> On the label front - labels are more visible if there is a reasonably high contrast with the lining, so if you go gold, go very pale gold


Cool beans. I'll add a version later with different settings.

On the border. Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Though I have no clue how to do it. Even with the alignment tool, I haven't figured it out yet.  :Question: 

EDIT: I use GIMP

----------


## Mouse

Well....

I've gone and forgotten what software you are using, so this may make sense, and it may not, but in GIMP...

If your map is X px wide, and Y px tall, and if you want the border all the way around to be 200 px (this is just an example and not 'the ideal width' or anything)  then you need to enlarge your map *canvas* (not the map layers but canvas) by 2 x 200 px in both directions, which means you will have to break the little chain link thing and manually add 400 px to both dimensions.

If it's GIMP you're using, then you can do the alignment of the map layers while you are expanding the canvas.

----------


## Tenia

In my opinion the overall looking is great, there is something in this work, contrats of colors, shapes, I love it. Don't touch the sea and rocks, they are hypnotic  :Wink:  Just keep the same style on the top and the sky... Go on !

----------


## XCali

> Well....
> 
> I've gone and forgotten what software you are using, so this may make sense, and it may not, but in GIMP...
> 
> If your map is X px wide, and Y px tall, and if you want the border all the way around to be 200 px (this is just an example and not 'the ideal width' or anything)  then you need to enlarge your map *canvas* (not the map layers but canvas) by 2 x 200 px in both directions, which means you will have to break the little chain link thing and manually add 400 px to both dimensions.
> 
> If it's GIMP you're using, then you can do the alignment of the map layers while you are expanding the canvas.


Okay.  :Wink:  Though I'm not too sure how to work in px. My canvas size is 3508 x 2551

That last one is definitely good to know. I went about it an other way around, so that might be my problem with the alignment tool. So thanks.  :Very Happy:

----------


## XCali

> In my opinion the overall looking is great, there is something in this work, contrats of colors, shapes, I love it. Don't touch the sea and rocks, they are hypnotic  Just keep the same style on the top and the sky... Go on !


Ah, thanks a bunch Tenia! I really appreciate it!  :Very Happy: 

I have to ask what you meant exactly with *'Just keep the same style on the top and the sky'*. I didn't quite understand what you were alluding to.

But again thank you for the compliments.  :Wink: 

Have a nice day.

----------


## Mouse

It doesn't matter if you make it too wide to start with because you can always trim the canvas size to fit it once you've done the border, so try adding vastly too much, like 1000 px in both dimensions (re-sizing your canvas to 4508 x 3551), which will give you 500 pixels all the way around to play with. 

Once you've finished drawing the border you can trim the canvas to fit the border  :Smile: 

EDIT: when you are resizing the canvas in the dialogue box that opens up for you to give the new coordinates, you will see an alignment option below the resizing boxes.  If you make sure that 'Centre' is selected you should be fine  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

Hi everyone,

This is a purely technical experiment. 
I just changed the alignment on Fort Silverman. Still a bit 50/50 about that one.

And then added a LOT of different text for checking out what works best for a fantasy map like this.

This is a discussion on the matter. So I would like to know what number text works best and why before I throw in my thoughts on the matter.

The font is Century Schoolbook Bold.

----------


## XCali

Hi,

Thought I'd add a second one today. I'm still keen on hearing your thoughts on the different colour text.

For this I drew a storm drain and brushed the way down to the see. And tried one of the sets of name colours out for this one.  :Wink:

----------


## Mouse

If the choice was mine to make, I'd do white text with a black glow around it.  I'm not keen on any of the coloured versions for different reasons in each case.  But that is only my opinion - so don't make your choice based purely on mine  :Wink: 

The font you are using is a tricky one, since it has very slender parts to the letters that can make it less legible at very small sizes.  However, if you like that font, I wouldn't start adding lots of other fonts on the same map.  I'd stick with just the one font for all the labels on the map, and maybe a slightly different one for the title that is closely related to the first.

----------


## XCali

> If the choice was mine to make, I'd do white text with a black glow around it.  I'm not keen on any of the coloured versions for different reasons in each case.  But that is only my opinion - so don't make your choice based purely on mine 
> 
> The font you are using is a tricky one, since it has very slender parts to the letters that can make it less legible at very small sizes.  However, if you like that font, I wouldn't start adding lots of other fonts on the same map.  I'd stick with just the one font for all the labels on the map, and maybe a slightly different one for the title that is closely related to the first.


What font/fonts would you suggest then? I'm all ears.  :Question:  (Though a free one would be best.) 
I was thinking in the line of what would be *fitting* on a Fantasy Tabletop map. But *legibility* is also key.

----------


## Mouse

Oh my!  There are literally THOUSANDS of fonts out there on sites like Dafont.com (which is the one I tend to trawl) and you can get really bogged down or even fall asleep choosing one, there are just so many.

Google 'free fonts' and you'll pretty quickly discover most of the main sites.

Font choice is such a very personal thing, a bit like your favourite colour or taste, that it would be impossible for me to guess what the ideal font would be for you.  I would suggest that the best and only way is to go looking at what there is for yourself.

Guidelines - try not to fall in love with anything that is grossly ornate or distorted.  Those kinds of fonts look great on a poster ad, but they're pretty much rubbish in a map because they are hard to read, and map labels are meant at the very least to be legible.  The other one you already know - a graceful font might look very nice, but they tend to have lots of thin bits in the individual letters that disappear if they are used at a small scale.

Before you go racing off to google everything, though, just check out what you've already got available on your system by flipping open that font box in GIMP, as the last thing you want to do is bog down your PC with a thousand different new fonts, if you already have the one you like right there.  

One rule:  Never use Papyrus!!!  Its got a really bad name around here because it was totally overused to death in the early days of fantasy cartography  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

> Oh my!  There are literally THOUSANDS of fonts out there on sites like Dafont.com (which is the one I tend to trawl) and you can get really bogged down or even fall asleep choosing one, there are just so many.
> 
> Google 'free fonts' and you'll pretty quickly discover most of the main sites.
> 
> Font choice is such a very personal thing, a bit like your favourite colour or taste, that it would be impossible for me to guess what the ideal font would be for you.  I would suggest that the best and only way is to go looking at what there is for yourself.
> 
> Guidelines - try not to fall in love with anything that is grossly ornate or distorted.  Those kinds of fonts look great on a poster ad, but they're pretty much rubbish in a map because they are hard to read, and map labels are meant at the very least to be legible.  The other one you already know - a graceful font might look very nice, but they tend to have lots of thin bits in the individual letters that disappear if they are used at a small scale.
> 
> Before you go racing off to google everything, though, just check out what you've already got available on your system by flipping open that font box in GIMP, as the last thing you want to do is bog down your PC with a thousand different new fonts, if you already have the one you like right there.  
> ...


Hehe, I've been on Dafont. It is quite a VAST library. Got a few there. Like the Endor one I'm using for the title so far.
Though. let's give a quote from on stranger tides. "I find myself in a bewilderment."  :Razz: 

It is not as much having a personal taste in this as it is for that I would like to find a font that would fit great on a fantasy map AND would be easy to read by other people. But as you well know, finding that for a map is not an easy search. So, any hints in the right direction would be much appreciated.  :Wink:  

(And don't worry about Papyrus, I don't like the font anyway.  :Very Happy:  )

----------


## Mouse

Here is a list of some I have downloaded over the last year, each for a hugely different maps, and most of them rejected.



I end up using only about 1 in every ten, since its impossible to know exactly what font will work, and what won't.  what looks nice on the font site isn't necessarily ideal for a map.

There is one here that came from a site that DanielHasenbos recommended when I asked him what font he was using in one of his maps:

http://iginomarini.com/fell/the-revival-fonts/

I like the classical flavour of that one, but I wouldn't use it in a map like Scribble Rock, for instance.  I used Tolkien in that one (another font that's rapidly becoming rather over-used).

Thinking about it now - that's probably the best way to develop your own collection - by looking around and asking other cartographers what that font is in their map  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Here is a list of some I have downloaded over the last year, each for a hugely different maps, and most of them rejected.
> 
> 
> 
> I end up using only about 1 in every ten, since its impossible to know exactly what font will work, and what won't.  what looks nice on the font site isn't necessarily ideal for a map.
> 
> There is one here that came from a site that DanielHasenbos recommended when I asked him what font he was using in one of his maps:
> 
> http://iginomarini.com/fell/the-revival-fonts/
> ...


Rejected?

Thank you.  :Wink:  Hehe, every little feedback helps. Just thinking about how far I've come in the short time I've been on this site... Really thank you for taking the time. Your feedback has been *really* inspiring so far, to say the very least.  :Very Happy:  

Have a nice day further, and goodluck with your mapping projects. (And writing? What do you write if I may be so bold to ask?)  :Wink:

----------


## Mouse

Please remember that what I find great for a particular map I'm doing at the time, might be of no use whatsoever for you, so by giving you this list I'm just showing you how many I've downloaded (each folder represents more than one font).  Its not a definitive list of what you should have, or use, and I reject 9 out of 10 of them, because they don't look the way I thought they were going to look when I picked them on the font site.

You are very welcome to know what I use, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily be the right ones for your maps.  In the end the only way to do this is to trawl the font sites for yourself and just look - look at everything there is.  I think I must have spent over 100 hours doing exactly that, if I add all my 2-3 hour font hunting sessions together.

All that any of us can do is just look and experiment.  And when we see a good one that someone else is currently using in a map in another thread, and we would like to have that font for ourselves, then we ask what it is - right there on the thread  :Smile: 

EDIT:  I enjoy helping people, so - no problem  :Smile:   I write fantasy too, like just about everyone else on this site  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

> Please remember that what I find great for a particular map I'm doing at the time, might be of no use whatsoever for you, so by giving you this list I'm just showing you how many I've downloaded (each folder represents more than one font).  Its not a definitive list of what you should have, or use, and I reject 9 out of 10 of them, because they don't look the way I thought they were going to look when I picked them on the font site.
> 
> You are very welcome to know what I use, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily be the right ones for your maps.  In the end the only way to do this is to trawl the font sites for yourself and just look - look at everything there is.  I think I must have spent over 100 hours doing exactly that, if I add all my 2-3 hour font hunting sessions together.
> 
> All that any of us can do is just look and experiment.  And when we see a good one that someone else is currently using in a map in another thread, and we would like to have that font for ourselves, then we ask what it is - right there on the thread 
> 
> EDIT:  I enjoy helping people, so - no problem   I write fantasy too, like just about everyone else on this site


Hmm, true enough. This map is made of little and big experiments so far. Though the font and the buildings have been my bigger conundrums. Maybe what needs to go up top too.  :Question:  

I think I'll alter my question in regard to the font then. I'll try and add different fonts while I work on different sections of my maps and maybe ask a 1-100 on the different types as I go. I do feel the creamy colour harkens towards the fantasy maps I know was significant. White looks out of place the map. So for now I'm sticking with the creamy color. Unless some colour is brought forward that FITS on fantasy maps used for adventures.  :Wink: 

But really thank you for your feedback so far. It is amazing. It helped so much.  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

Hi,

I started with shadows with all the buildings. To maybe see if I can remove the cut-out look with some of them. The lighthouse would cast a bigger shadow, but something about that shadow feels off, so any ideas would be welcome.

And as a side, I'm going to add different fonts to the Dawnflare tower area as I go. To see if one would work best. A nice 1-100 with that feedback might help. 
And really I have no clue HOW I should place the text on the forest up top
Top to bottom
Bookman old Bold (1px black border)
TexGyre Bonum Bold (1px black border)
Century Schoolbook Bold (1px black border)
Century Schoolbook Bold (2px black border) Original

----------


## Mouse

Given the examples you have shown I'd say Bookman Bold out of that lot.  Its more clearly visible.  I can't stress enough, though, that all these opinions I express are just that - my opinions, and nothing more  :Wink: 

I like the cut-out look!  Its part of the charm of the map for me  :Smile: 

I also like the way you've done the top bit.  If you want to change it you could try blending in a bit of similar but not the same grass texture here and there on a separate layer over the top of the existing, but under the trees?

The forest label looks fine.

----------


## XCali

> Given the examples you have shown I'd say Bookman Bold out of that lot.  Its more clearly visible.  I can't stress enough, though, that all these opinions I express are just that - my opinions, and nothing more 
> 
> I like the cut-out look!  Its part of the charm of the map for me 
> 
> I also like the way you've done the top bit.  If you want to change it you could try blending in a bit of similar but not the same grass texture here and there on a separate layer over the top of the existing, but under the trees?
> 
> The forest label looks fine.


Fair enough. But thank you anyway for your opinion.  :Wink: 

Yeah me too, but um I think what I meant was that some of them look really 2D. Hehe. The shadows help a bit with that. This map is going places, so I need to do it properly.  :Wink: 

Hmm, it's a fair idea that. I'll try a bit of that up top. I like it the top too, but I think also it's maybe that I need to add a bit more in the line of features up top to even it out.  :Wink:  Maybe add the second fort I was thinking about up top.

That forest label.... hehe, I'll let it simmer for now.  :Razz: 

Do you like the Lighthouse shadow the way it is?

----------


## XCali

HI!  :Very Happy: 

For this one, I tackled the rocky coast a bit, made it a bit more prominent with a speckled brush with black on low opacity.

AND

I added a harbour. It's the first attempt, so let me know how it looks. :Wink: 



P.S. Ignore the TEXT on the map for this one. I didn't go for new fonts today.

----------


## Mouse

If a shadow is good enough people don't notice it as a separate entity in its own right, so the fact that I completely missed it must mean that its certainly good enough for me  :Smile: 

I don't think you really need to do too much more to the rocky coast.

As for the 'lack of detail' up top, I disagree with you there.  If you look at other maps you will see that in most cases there are contrasting areas of detail and open expanse.  Even an OS map is never completely covered all over with symbols (unless you are looking at a section of a large city, but even then there will be plazas and parkland).  In designing something like this the open spaces are just as important as the dense city clusters of buildings  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> If a shadow is good enough people don't notice it as a separate entity in its own right, so the fact that I completely missed it must mean that its certainly good enough for me 
> 
> I don't think you really need to do too much more to the rocky coast.
> 
> As for the 'lack of detail' up top, I disagree with you there.  If you look at other maps you will see that in most cases there are contrasting areas of detail and open expanse.  Even an OS map is never completely covered all over with symbols (unless you are looking at a section of a large city, but even then there will be plazas and parkland).  In designing something like this the open spaces are just as important as the dense city clusters of buildings


Awesome to know. Thanks Mouse.  :Very Happy: 

Hmmm, now that is definitely food for thought. Apart from the fort, which I wanted up top below the forest text, I do think you're right. I'll take it into account  :Wink:

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## XCali

Hellooo everyone! I hope you are all having a nice day.

Today, it is hidden changes! See if you can spot them all.  :Razz:  And if you spot them, you can comment on them. Huhuhu.  :Very Happy: 

Okay, then the not so hidden stuff, the fonts.
I tried a few more. With Bookman Old style as my base, since it was the winner in the last round. Again 1-100 if you want.

1. Bookman Old style Bold (33p size)
2. Cambria Bold    
3. Brittanic Bold   
4. Duralith Bold  (33p size)
4 -2. Duralith Bold (40p size)

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## Mouse

Hey XCali  :Smile: 

I see you've been busy again!

I had to get both this version and the last one up to see what you meant by hidden changes, and I note that you have added some shading at the base of the cliff on the sand.  I'm not entirely sure I understand the reasoning behind that move, since in most cases there isn't really much of a line as such at the bottom of a cliff.  If the face is lit then the ground at the base is usually also lit - sometimes brighter than the cliff depending on where the sun is in relation to the face.  If the face is in shadow, then the chances are the land at the base is also in shadow to the same extent and for some way out until the entire shadow of the cliff is revealed.  Your cliffs being as tall as they are, that shadow would likely cover the entire bottom of the map, which I'm sure you wouldn't want to show - the area beneath the cliff being the key point of interest I think, and not something you would want to shade too much.

Cliff shading and shadows aside, The jury is out on the font.  I'm not really all that keen on any of them, though I will say that the top one of the lot is oddly enough the clearest one when viewing the map at the smaller size before enlarging it to inspect the detail.

----------


## XCali

> Hey XCali 
> 
> I see you've been busy again!
> 
> I had to get both this version and the last one up to see what you meant by hidden changes, and I note that you have added some shading at the base of the cliff on the sand.  I'm not entirely sure I understand the reasoning behind that move, since in most cases there isn't really much of a line as such at the bottom of a cliff.  If the face is lit then the ground at the base is usually also lit - sometimes brighter than the cliff depending on where the sun is in relation to the face.  If the face is in shadow, then the chances are the land at the base is also in shadow to the same extent and for some way out until the entire shadow of the cliff is revealed.  Your cliffs being as tall as they are, that shadow would likely cover the entire bottom of the map, which I'm sure you wouldn't want to show - the area beneath the cliff being the key point of interest I think, and not something you would want to shade too much.
> 
> Cliff shading and shadows aside, The jury is out on the font.  I'm not really all that keen on any of them, though I will say that the top one of the lot is oddly enough the clearest one when viewing the map at the smaller size before enlarging it to inspect the detail.


That's fair. The 'shadow' at the bottom was actually a start to try and fade the cliff into the ground. It was a cut out. But I agree That I should tone it down a bit.  :Wink:  
As for the fonts. It seems I have bad taste in fonts. But thanks anyway.  :Wink: 

Now on to the other hidden stuff. There is a cave added. Waves in the distance. A little different textures on the grass up top and yet another cave.  :Wink: 


Have a nice day!  :Very Happy:

----------


## Mouse

Don't get too hung up on the font, XCali - It's important, but not important enough to ruin your enjoyment of your own map  :Wink: 

And I never saw the caves, but then it was quite late last night when I looked at them  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Don't get too hung up on the font, XCali - It's important, but not important enough to ruin your enjoyment of your own map 
> 
> And I never saw the caves, but then it was quite late last night when I looked at them


Yeah, I know. Hehe  :Wink:  It's just that I truly enjoy your maps. So your opinion carries real weight.  :Smile:   The fonts conundrum is a challenge, one that I want to overcome. But with your feedback, it helps to get closer to the solution. So, thank you.  :Wink: 

(Hehe, I did say there was hidden stuff!  :Razz:  )

----------


## Mouse

I am only about average here at the Guild.  You just see more of me around because I don't have any dependents to run around for, and I enjoy trying to help people when I have the time  :Wink: 

Also remember that my prestigious title is only a result of the fact that I do talk - a LOT!  It has no bearing on my ability as a cartographer  :Wink: 

I think you might learn a lot more a lot faster if you were to browse through the finished maps forum now and then and start talking with lots of other people as well as me, about how they do the things you like in their maps.  That's how I learned a lot of what I do.  You will find that people here are very friendly and most will oblige with at least a short explanation, and maybe a hyperlink or two to useful tutorials or examples if you catch them with a few minutes to spare  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> I am only about average here at the Guild.  You just see more of me around because I don't have any dependents to run around for, and I enjoy trying to help people when I have the time 
> 
> Also remember that my prestigious title is only a result of the fact that I do talk - a LOT!  It has no bearing on my ability as a cartographer 
> 
> I think you might learn a lot more a lot faster if you were to browse through the finished maps forum now and then and start talking with lots of other people as well as me, about how they do the things you like in their maps.  That's how I learned a lot of what I do.  You will find that people here are very friendly and most will oblige with at least a short explanation, and maybe a hyperlink or two to useful tutorials or examples if you catch them with a few minutes to spare


Hehe, Sue, I said I enjoyed your maps. Not I enjoyed your title. Your words carry weight because I think you make great maps.  :Wink:  

And true enough, some of the maps I've come across on this site are extraordinary, but still, I felt awe seeing some your works. True words here. No sugar coating. 
Indeed I learned a lot from other people's maps too so far. Learned how to do my waves from someone else. BUT it does not and I mean, NOT, take away from how much I learned from your feedback so far.  :Wink:  You are a good teacher. So thank you.  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

I need advice, please.
So, I was thinking. Is it possible to make a SIDE map this way?(EDIT: A second map.) I dabbled in something APART from my main map. This, if it is indeed a possible thing, will only be on a second map aside from my main Nessa'Mor map. To be clear.

So, is it possible? And what would be necessary to make it believable.  :Question:    I don't see me deciding this alone, easily.

Most of it is just messing about, I copied the buildings from the main map, just to get an idea. It's more about the CONCEPT than anything else.  :Wink: 



For my main map, I only really removed the shadow line for today.
But here it is, if you want to see.

 :Question:

----------


## Mouse

I'm very flattered that you find my maps an inspiration, XCali - thank you  :Smile: 

As to the side map issue - I'm not really sure I know what you mean.  I've not heard the term 'side map' before.  Are you thinking of doing an inset map to show the hidden detail of the inner city, a separate map of some kind, or something else?

Earlier you were talking about blending the bottom of the cliff more into the sand.  I think you have already managed to do this quite successfully just to the left of the entrance to the Inner City, where the bottom of the cliff is more or less the same colour as the sand.  Along the rest of its length the foot of the cliff is quite a lot lighter than the sand, but I'm not really sure that either way could be considered 'wrong' at all.

----------


## XCali

> I'm very flattered that you find my maps an inspiration, XCali - thank you 
> 
> As to the side map issue - I'm not really sure I know what you mean.  I've not heard the term 'side map' before.  Are you thinking of doing an inset map to show the hidden detail of the inner city, a separate map of some kind, or something else?
> 
> Earlier you were talking about blending the bottom of the cliff more into the sand.  I think you have already managed to do this quite successfully just to the left of the entrance to the Inner City, where the bottom of the cliff is more or less the same colour as the sand.  Along the rest of its length the foot of the cliff is quite a lot lighter than the sand, but I'm not really sure that either way could be considered 'wrong' at all.


 :Wink: 

Hehe, sorry. I was a bit unclear. It is indeed a second map. BUT the reason I asked all those things were, if it is possible to do it that way. Or do I just need to make it a city map for the inner city from scratch and a different angle?

Cool beans, I'll check where you said the blending was working. Thanks Mouse!  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

If its a map of something that can't be seen on the first one (ie the hidden part of the city), then yes - probably best to do it as a separate map.  Inset maps are usually an enlargement or different angle on something you can see in the main map.

Alternatively you could do a plan view map (from directly above and not showing the arch) of the entire city - showing the part that's inside the cliff like a dungeon map of a cave, with the rock of the cliff filling in around the space where the city is.

----------


## XCali

> If its a map of something that can't be seen on the first one (ie the hidden part of the city), then yes - probably best to do it as a separate map.  Inset maps are usually an enlargement or different angle on something you can see in the main map.
> 
> Alternatively you could do a plan view map (from directly above and not showing the arch) of the entire city - showing the part that's inside the cliff like a dungeon map of a cave, with the rock of the cliff filling in around the space where the city is.


I like that idea a lot.  :Very Happy: 
So brainstorming. Maybe I'd do it ISO again but with the camera angle from the ARCH itself, then with your idea.

----------


## Mouse

It might be easier to try a quick top down map first, even if its just a quick sketch, then translate that into ISO if you prefer it.  Its easier to work out where things go in top down.

----------


## XCali

Hi, everyone.

I decided to draw a statue for the city. And also added small changes like the surf around the jetty's posts and tried an eraser on the cliff edge to see if that helps. I'm _still_ thinking about how to go about the text, but I didn't change it today.

Okay, so I was thinking. This is an idea. The statue is a type of memorial in honour of a great Heroine. But, it was there way before the city came to be. It is still largely a mystery as most of the stuff written on it is still un-transelated except for the bit that was engraved in a known language. 

Let me know what you think, about how it looks and the story bit.  :Wink:  

Have a wonderful day,

----------


## Mouse

Cliffs are looking better without the fringe on them, certainly.  I hadn't noticed it before, but I do now that I can compare the before and after maps  :Smile: 

I can't really comment on the story, you need a professional to do that or you might end up with some bad advice and waste several years of hard work going off on the wrong tack!

All I can say is that from the point of view of an amateur reader it sounds fine to me  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Cliffs are looking better without the fringe on them, certainly.  I hadn't noticed it before, but I do now that I can compare the before and after maps 
> 
> I can't really comment on the story, you need a professional to do that or you might end up with some bad advice and waste several years of hard work going off on the wrong tack!
> 
> All I can say is that from the point of view of an amateur reader it sounds fine to me


Thanks, yeah I think the cliffs are better too.  :Wink: 

As for the story, I'm gearing up to publish my first book, an entirely different story. So, I know as with a map, spending enough time with refining story can make it much better. BUT with this map, it is more about adventure hooks and mystery. I'm tackling this map with tabletop RPG's in mind. So, in a way, the story does not need an intense focus. But enough to make great adventure hooks.  :Wink:  
Then the question is actually more in the line of, does it intrigue you enough, that you might want to find out.

----------


## Mouse

Well its certainly designed as a hook, and I would probably read on to at least the end of the first chapter, though I would expect there to be something else going on besides the mystery of the statue.  I listen to a lot of fantasy audiobooks as I map, and they are all very different.  The ones I like best, however, focus on the characters and their development, like GoT for example, and contain these kinds of hooks all over the place, but they are generally in the background and not the be-all and end-all - they are never the _only_ reason for telling the story.

And that's about as useful as I can be - sorry!  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Well its certainly designed as a hook, and I would probably read on to at least the end of the first chapter, though I would expect there to be something else going on besides the mystery of the statue.  I listen to a lot of fantasy audiobooks as I map, and they are all very different.  The ones I like best, however, focus on the characters and their development, like GoT for example, and contain these kinds of hooks all over the place, but they are generally in the background and not the be-all and end-all - they are never the _only_ reason for telling the story.
> 
> And that's about as useful as I can be - sorry!


I wholly agree that characters and their development are extremely important to Novels and roleplaying maps. Thus why I would create an adventure hook regarding the mysterious memorial surrounding an ancient Heroine. And also for now, Zalia's plight, which I wrote about briefly. 
Regarding what hooks I'm also thinking about, are the caves and what secrets lay below the inner city. 

(As I go I'll add more hooks, just so I'm clear. This is just asking if the hooks I bring out one for one are good enough to warrant exploration by player characters -for DnD and the like-. `For example, there is this cave here. It's off the beaten track, should we explore it? Or there is a far drop where the water disappears from the waterfal, if we take a rope down there we might find something.) Simple, but the start of a story for player characters.  :Smile:  

But really thanks for discussing these things as I go.  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

Hi, everyone!

Today there are many changes. Though some are smaller than others.  :Wink: 

1. Lighthouse fire. 
1b -Experimental-added the highlight for the light cast by said fire.

2. 2 sets of new buildings. 1 set closer to the lighthouse and the other closer to the back. Storehouses and the like.

3. Jetty number 2. Also, I tried to add an underwater effect for that jetty. Also, do you think that jetty needs a building too?

4. I tried out smaller roads. Just a start.

5. Small quality of life things. Would be hard to spot, so I'm just saying there are some small changes.

6. Super experimental. Tried out a jagged rock in the ocean. Can it work(with some tweaking of course)? Or is it too much?

----------


## Mouse

Its all looking good, XCali

Keep up the good work  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Its all looking good, XCali
> 
> Keep up the good work


Even the jagged rock in the ocean?  :Question:  Hmm, *scratches head* color me surprised.  :Razz:

----------


## XCali

Hi everyone,

I had trouble with the internet the last few days. But here is my next update.

There are quite a few changes.

I added a recommissioned fort that became an inn. I am looking for advice on the name for such a structure. For now, I've come up with "The Watchers' Inn" or "Old Fort Inn".
With that came a road, though the perspective looked odd so I... messed about to get it to fit in...
I added a building to the other jetty, dressed up the top grass and also the jagged rock in the ocean. A name suggestion for the rock would be welcome.  :Wink: 

Further on, I tried the 'Duralith' font for most of the names. Still experimental.

I think the big things I need to figure out now is the small roads between the buildings, the wells and what needs to be placed in the small courtyards between the buildings. And ... the border... My first ever border for a map...
Any suggestions are more than welcome, really.

So, tell me what you all think.  :Wink: 



P.S.
I'm just throwing it out there. I am gearing up towards the last WIP somewhere before I post it as a finished map. So if there is ANYTHING you want me to completely change, or tweak, or whatever, now is the time to tell me. 
And as always, thank you all soooooo much for all the feedback.  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:  (And special heartfelt thanks to Mouse, for her many and truly helpful contributions.  :Wink:  )

----------


## Mouse

Oh Xcali!  I'm not that great, but thanks all the same - appreciated  :Smile: 

I'm really rubbish at names myself, so I'm afraid you are going to have to pick one yourself, or wait for someone else to suggest one  :Wink: 

Its all looking pretty splendid.  I only have two questions:

1. Where does the waterfall end?  It seems to go deeper than the ocean, but that can't be right... can it?

2. Are you going to blend the road together a bit more where the road down the cliff meets the road at the bottom of the cliff?  the bottom one is quite a lot darker than the top one.

----------


## XCali

> Oh Xcali!  I'm not that great, but thanks all the same - appreciated 
> 
> I'm really rubbish at names myself, so I'm afraid you are going to have to pick one yourself, or wait for someone else to suggest one 
> 
> Its all looking pretty splendid.  I only have two questions:
> 
> 1. Where does the waterfall end?  It seems to go deeper than the ocean, but that can't be right... can it?
> 
> 2. Are you going to blend the road together a bit more where the road down the cliff meets the road at the bottom of the cliff?  the bottom one is quite a lot darker than the top one.


Hehe, you are really helpful Mouse. This map wouldn't be nearly as good without your suggestions. So don't sell yourself short.  :Wink: 

1. Hmmm, I thought it was clear the falls disappear into a hole in the rock. It makes me worry if that is not apparent.  :Question:  (It is something I would like as an adventure hook. A waterfal that turns into something like a subteranean waterfal.)(Do you think I should name the hole the waterfall disappears into also?)

2. Yup, the roads need a decent dose of TLC. I'll see what I can do.

What is your opinion on the water wells?

----------


## Mouse

I thought that was what the waterfall was doing, but I wasn't sure.  

Its certainly a bit unusual, and nothing that could ever be real.  It seems to strongly suggest a kind of hollow planet with a vast inner world.  Is that what you are aiming for?

I'm sorry, I'm not really following you on the water wells.  Where are they?

----------


## XCali

> I thought that was what the waterfall was doing, but I wasn't sure.  
> 
> Its certainly a bit unusual, and nothing that could ever be real.  It seems to strongly suggest a kind of hollow planet with a vast inner world.  Is that what you are aiming for?


I've seen it in photos before. In fact, I just googled it and immediately found something in the* direction* I'm thinking.

http://www.amazingplacesonearth.com/...ral-Bridge.jpg Natural-Bridge Waterfall

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...493aceb2fc.jpg

----------


## Mouse

I think the cave might be full of sea water so close to the shore, though ?

Don't worry - I wasn't attacking your idea, or anything.  It just suggests to me that this is a hollow planet with an underworld.  That's all  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> I think the cave might be full of sea water so close to the shore, though ?
> 
> Don't worry - I wasn't attacking your idea, or anything.  It just suggests to me that this is a hollow planet with an underworld.  That's all


Fair point.  :Wink:  Unless the rock is extremely dense in that regard, which is not impossible, even though this is a fantasy setting.

----------


## Mouse

Granted that things happen differently in a fantasy setting, but don't underestimate a reader's ability to fill in the unexplained bits with explanations of their own.  For example my imagination automatically provided me with a personal view on what might be happening to that water by instantly suggesting that the planet is hollow and contains a smaller, inner planet with an ocean of its own.  Also that if the water is going down to that level there has to be some natural mechanism by which it returns to the surface, or after a couple of thousand years there wouldn't be any water left on the surface at all.  So my mind then suggested to me that this could somehow be through some sort of geyser-like eruptions happening elsewhere on the outer surface of your world, and probably powered by volcanic heat like the real world equivalent.

Don't worry about it too much.  If all else fails - its something to do with magic  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

> Granted that things happen differently in a fantasy setting, but don't underestimate a reader's ability to fill in the unexplained bits with explanations of their own.  For example my imagination automatically provided me with a personal view on what might be happening to that water by instantly suggesting that the planet is hollow and contains a smaller, inner planet with an ocean of its own.  Also that if the water is going down to that level there has to be some natural mechanism by which it returns to the surface, or after a couple of thousand years there wouldn't be any water left on the surface at all.  So my mind then suggested to me that this could somehow be through some sort of geyser-like eruptions happening elsewhere on the outer surface of your world, and probably powered by volcanic heat like the real world equivalent.
> 
> Don't worry about it too much.  If all else fails - its something to do with magic


Your imagination is facinating.  :Very Happy:  Hehe, you never fail to surpise me.  :Razz: 

Anyway, aside from that. I only imagined a waterfal falling into a hole, creating a small underground lake. The inner city has access to this lake. There is a small stream that goes from the underground lake and disappears beneath the rock to the right, not to be seen again (make with that information what you will).  There is no hollow planet in sight. Though, there are big caverns and a maze of tunnels.

***
So here is a few changes. I started to blend the road a bit. Change the name of the waterfall to make it more clear. Changed the drop into the hole. Added a rock plate there to assert the possibility that sea water does not flow freely into the caverns. Then, I added prelimenary names to the Fort/Inn and the Jagged rock.

Also the thing with the 'wells'. If you zoom in once, then in the small courtyards between the buildings I added wells, like in, where you draw water. But I don't know if the ones I used fits.

----------


## Mouse

Oh!  I thought I had quite an ordinary imagination!  Thanks  :Smile: 

The roads and the waterfall look much better now (even though I'm still thinking about hollow planets).  The whole map looks to be just about finished with the added names  :Smile: 

I'm just not going to think about how deep those wells are.  I think the fresh water in them will just have to be down to magic  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

Hi everyone, hope it has been a good day!

Okay, so just before I state the obvious, that there is a border now, I need to emphasize clearly the fact that before today, I had NEVER done a border before. And apart from making a bigger canvas and adding a paper texture, I had no experience in it, NADA. In fact, I knew I needed a border for this map and I've been super stressed how I will ever do one. I'm good with random art, but symmetrical stuff makes me sweat. 

And then I got inspiration today, and incredibly surprising... I actually have a border now.  :Exclamation: 

Okay, I KNOW there is a woncky bit at the bottom of the map, so ignore that bit for now.(unless you know how to fix it.)  :Wink:  Let me know what you think of the actual border.

Also, I added roads between the houses as an experiment. And there is probably a lot of small changes too.

OH! I removed the 'wells' for Mouse's sake.  :Razz:

----------


## Mouse

That's a terrific border, XCali - I really like it  :Very Happy: 

Like you say the corners need a bit of tidying - perhaps a final stamp of a square version of the pattern on each corner?  Not sure...

Do you mean the white line at the bottom of the picture?  Maybe carefully paint a bit more sea and rock till it meets the border?  I can see that you can't really squash the border up a bit, or the pattern would be wrong.

EDIT:  And thanks for the wells!  I admit that I _was_ having a bit of a problem resolving them in my imagination!  LOL!

----------


## XCali

> That's a terrific border, XCali - I really like it 
> 
> Like you say the corners need a bit of tidying - perhaps a final stamp of a square version of the pattern on each corner?  Not sure...
> 
> Do you mean the white line at the bottom of the picture?  Maybe carefully paint a bit more sea and rock till it meets the border?  I can see that you can't really squash the border up a bit, or the pattern would be wrong.
> 
> EDIT:  And thanks for the wells!  I admit that I _was_ having a bit of a problem resolving them in my imagination!  LOL!


Thanks Mouse!  :Wink: 

Yeah, I'm not too sure how to tackle the corners either. Even getting this far with the border has been a huge accomplishment for me. 

And to talk about the lines at the bottom, I'm not sure how that happened at all. But I'll see what I can do.

I do want to know if the color of the border is right for this specific map. :Question:

----------


## Mouse

About the corners...

Are you familiar with how to make yourself a new brush in GIMP?

I need to know that before I go rattling on quite a way with an idea that only _might_ be of some use to you  :Wink: 

EDIT:  How did you make the border originally?  Was that a brush, or did you just draw one section and then paste it all around the map by hand?

----------


## XCali

> About the corners...
> 
> Are you familiar with how to make yourself a new brush in GIMP?
> 
> I need to know that before I go rattling on quite a way with an idea that only _might_ be of some use to you 
> 
> EDIT:  How did you make the border originally?  Was that a brush, or did you just draw one section and then paste it all around the map by hand?


Oh, I know how to make a brush alright, hehehe  :Razz: . This map would have taken a lot longer without it. So rattle away.  :Very Happy: 

(How I created the border is a little different though. I took a picture of a tile in my bathroom, cut out all the unnecessary bits and colorized it. Then figured out how big the border would look nice and calculated the size it need to be, then I shrunk the result of the pic to half the size of the border, copied and flipped it and aligned it. And got the top bit finished.
The bottom and side is basically flipped and rotated from the top, on different layers. And a bit of eraser to ease out the hard edges at the inner corner. I don't know if that makes sense, but that is the gist of the process.)

OH! And I figured out the line problem. The map is just a line smaller than the border and so when I exported to jpeg, the image is flatten and a white background spills through.

I'll add the fixed product next post.  :Wink: 

The corners are the next conundrum.

----------


## XCali

Okay, so this is just a small fix, brushed out the ocean layer that slipped somewhere waaaaaaay back. And added a new layer behind the whole map and border to make sure no transparency turns to white.  :Smile:  (I still need some tweaking on the ocean bit.)

With this, I tried a darker border and a BEVEL between the map and the border.
I am still pondering what color the border needs to be to fit.  :Question: 

Don't forget about the smaller roads between the buildings! That is also experimental build.



Darker border,

----------


## Mouse

Phew!  That makes my suggestion a lot easier  :Smile: 

The idea was to create a new perfectly square and perfectly symmetrical brush (identical no matter which side you have at the top) using bits and pieces of the border, or even just a simple pattern of circles or a blank bevelled square.  Then all you would have to do is use the colour picker to pick the colours from the existing border, and dab it once in each of the four corners.

A lot of mappers use all kinds of corner designs - some elaborate and involving miniature scenes in little circular or quarter circle cameos and such like, but I don't think you really need to go that far unless you have a fancy to do it like that.  Simple is just as good and effective  :Wink: 

For future reference you might also want to make a brush out of that frame design to go with it.

Well that was my idea.  Maybe you have an even better one of your own  :Smile: 

EDIT:  You just ninjad me!  LOL!  I like the lighter one because the darker one merges too much with the sea.  You might find a subtle line of a very much darker blue around the inside edge of the frame will help to separate it just a bit more - whichever one you decide to use.

I think the roads tie the houses together a bit better - define the city.

----------


## XCali

> Phew!  That makes my suggestion a lot easier 
> 
> The idea was to create a new perfectly square and perfectly symmetrical brush (identical no matter which side you have at the top) using bits and pieces of the border, or even just a simple pattern of circles or a blank bevelled square.  Then all you would have to do is use the colour picker to pick the colours from the existing border, and dab it once in each of the four corners.
> 
> A lot of mappers use all kinds of corner designs - some elaborate and involving miniature scenes in little circular or quarter circle cameos and such like, but I don't think you really need to go that far unless you have a fancy to do it like that.  Simple is just as good and effective 
> 
> For future reference you might also want to make a brush out of that frame design to go with it.
> 
> Well that was my idea.  Maybe you have an even better one of your own 
> ...


Awesome, thanks. That is useful definitely. Though the key word there is symmetrical... I'm still feeling around in the dark with symmetrical stuff. And perfectly so? The how of that is just a tad intimidating. It is, however, an awesome idea. I just need to figure out how. Hehe.  :Wink: 

About the roads, you said, "a bit better" Is there something you'd change there or add or tackle differently?  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Oh stop! The roads are fine  :Smile: 

Here's another couple of ideas to deal with symmetry:

When making the brush, use existing symmetrical brushes placed centrally - for example different sizes of the standard circle or square brushes, or... 

create just one quarter of the design, then increase the size of the canvas by a factor of 2, so that you can copy the design, rotate it, and paste it another three times to generate the symmetry.  You might have to tidy the join between each of the four quadrants, but its easier than trying to do the whole thing totally freehand.

----------


## XCali

> Oh stop! The roads are fine 
> 
> Here's another couple of ideas to deal with symmetry:
> 
> When making the brush, use existing symmetrical brushes placed centrally - for example different sizes of the standard circle or square brushes, or... 
> 
> create just one quarter of the design, then increase the size of the canvas by a factor of 2, so that you can copy the design, rotate it, and paste it another three times to generate the symmetry.  You might have to tidy the join between each of the four quadrants, but its easier than trying to do the whole thing totally freehand.


Hehe, thanks.  :Wink: 

Oh! The symmetry idea is great. I'll see what I can do.  :Wink: 

I felt inspired, so one last update for today.

I added a darker line as you suggested. It works for me.

Also, I changed the Nessa'Mor Legend into a flag type.

Enjoy the evening!  :Very Happy:

----------


## XCali

Hi!

I thought I'd add a few boats. And some text to the memorial(though I don't know how to bend text along a path...yet. But anyway.)  :Wink: 

Small and straightforward  :Wink: 




On my to do list before I make the final call is:

What needs to be placed in the small courtyards(between the buildings) to make them more interesting. 
And then the corners maybe. 

***
Anything else I need to be mindful of before I declare this a finished map?  :Razz:

----------


## Mouse

Hey XCali  :Smile: 

Your boats are looking great.

There are lots of tutorials on making curved text in GIMP on YouTube, but I decided not to pick just one to recommend, since although they all achieve some kind of result none of them cover the entire subject or point out half the problems.  Some even do it a really odd way that goes all around the houses once you know how to do it yourself, but its fun watching them and generally absorbing all the information they contain - both good and bad  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

So...

I'm really and truly hitting a brick wall with the border's corners. I tried my hand at it in different ways and still, I'm no closer to having ANY idea how I can tackle it.  :Confused: 

As much as I'm struggling with it, I'm really starting to consider leaving the corners as is.

----------


## Mouse

Hey XCali  :Smile: 

If all else proves to be unsatisfactory, you could always use just four straight squares (a square brush), large enough to cover the corner, and on a layer of their own, then perhaps even apply a bevel effect of some kind?

That is only a suggestion, by the way - there's no rule to say you have to do _anything_ to the corners if you don't want to  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

> Hey XCali 
> 
> If all else proves to be unsatisfactory, you could always use just four straight squares (a square brush), large enough to cover the corner, and on a layer of their own, then perhaps even apply a bevel effect of some kind?
> 
> That is only a suggestion, by the way - there's no rule to say you have to do _anything_ to the corners if you don't want to


Thanks Mouse, I needed that. I'll see if I can get something to work other than what it is now  :Wink: 

***
Thought I'd add a corner here.

----------


## Mouse

Seeing that has given me an idea.

Would you mind if I borrowed it and had a play around with it - see if I couldn't come up with a solution?

----------


## XCali

> Seeing that has given me an idea.
> 
> Would you mind if I borrowed it and had a play around with it - see if I couldn't come up with a solution?


By all means go ahead, I don't mind one bit.  :Wink:

----------


## Mouse

Well...

I did an awful lot of messing around, and got nowhere fast, so I decided to do a very plain and simple circle design that might sort of look a bit like a huge rivet holding the frame together... or... something. 

*apologetic smile*

Not very artistic, and you don't have to use it or anything.

Its _just an idea_ for you  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

> Well...
> 
> I did an awful lot of messing around, and got nowhere fast, so I decided to do a very plain and simple circle design that might sort of look a bit like a huge rivet holding the frame together... or... something. 
> 
> *apologetic smile*
> 
> Not very artistic, and you don't have to use it or anything.
> 
> Its _just an idea_ for you


Hehehe, I know how you feel. I also got nowhere fast with that one.  :Very Happy: 
But, you actually did something cool here, so naturally I tried it out. Though, I do need your feedback on whether the original look or this one wins out?



Super thanks regardeless. It is still a cool idea.  :Wink:  You are awesome.  :Very Happy:

----------


## Mouse

Well I like it a lot better than I thought I would before I saw it on the map.

If you want to change it at all, or make your own version please don't mind me.

I think if anything I made it a little on the dark side overall, but I don't think its a simple case of just making the whole thing a bit lighter because that would make the lighter parts stand out too much against the rest of the pattern.

Have a go yourself, and see if you can't make something even better than that.

All I used was a plain background of the darker colour that I sponged some of the lighter colour over to give it a mottled effect, and then I dabbed the centre with various different circular brushes on several different semi-transparent layers above that.

And thanks for the praise  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Well I like it a lot better than I thought I would before I saw it on the map.
> 
> If you want to change it at all, or make your own version please don't mind me.
> 
> I think if anything I made it a little on the dark side overall, but I don't think its a simple case of just making the whole thing a bit lighter because that would make the lighter parts stand out too much against the rest of the pattern.
> 
> Have a go yourself, and see if you can't make something even better than that.
> 
> All I used was a plain background of the darker colour that I sponged some of the lighter colour over to give it a mottled effect, and then I dabbed the centre with various different circular brushes on several different semi-transparent layers above that.
> ...


 :Smile: 

If, and I say IF I happen to make something better by some chance, I'll switch it out. But for now I'm quite happy with the look. So, thank you.  :Wink:  Symmetrical stuff like that is definitely still a struggle for me. But I'm starting to see the light.  :Very Happy: 

***
Okay, back to what is necessary still... I'm trying to think about what would be cool to add to that open space to the left.(Down from the lighthouse)
I've tried drawing a skeleton of a boatyard, but I felt meh about it. I also drew an old wreckage. But, I'm a bit in the air about what would look cool but work there. Any suggestions?

----------


## Mouse

Ask yourself if you really _need_ to fill it  :Wink: 

Don't answer straight away.  Have a think about it overnight, and look at it again with fresh eyes in the morning  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

:Wink:  A very valid question. 

Then again I did plan to place something there for a veeeeery long time. hehe. But it's still a good question  :Wink: 

***
Okay, today I made a whole slew of changes. 
I was bugged with the cliff point, so I changed it. Then, I added a lot of extra shading to the cliff and a darker edge to the grass. Also, I've added special buildings. 
For this, I thought 'gathering points' would be a decent addition. So check it out.
(I'll add a file with the different types of gathering point concepts, just for if the round one doesn't work.)

 

the choice I had for the gathering point building


***
*Now, this is important. Other than maybe a compass rose, I don't know what else there is that needs attention badly.  Any suggestions from the community?*

P.S.
My attempts so far with a compass rose had been less than satisfying. So anything pointing in the right direction would be VERY welcome.

EDIT: Case and point. This is the best compass rose I've done,

Doesn't scream epic if you ask me.  :Razz:  Hehe

----------


## XCali

Hi!

Okay, so this is officially the last _few_ posts of final touches.  :Wink: 

So be sure to tell me now if something needs a changing.  :Razz: 

***
These are two versions with only the smaller roads changed, the scroll and the text.

First one up is TEXT with solid lining,


The second TEXT with a black glow,


Any preferences in that regard?


EDIT: Oh! And I changed the compass a little and placed it on the grass.

----------


## Mouse

Both look fantastic - finished even?  

The one with the black glow is fractionally clearer  :Wink: 

There's only one thing that's catching my eye, and that's the title.  Do you think it would look better if it was centred?

Please don't change it just because I noticed it - I'm only asking the question  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

Tried it, 



But frankly, the way the map flows, it doesn't fit as well that way, in my opinion. So, for now at least, I don't think I'm going that direction.
I will think on it though.  :Wink: 
I can always change it if enough people think that way too.

Okay, I'm starting up my finished map thread. In 3...
2...
1...

----------


## Mouse

Ah no.

I meant centred text _within_ the square of the banner - leaving the banner where it was.

Sorry I should have been more clear about what I meant!  Doh!

Centred text like the middle example below - that was all, but don't worry about it or anything  :Smile: 



Definitely don't worry about it - You aren't the first, and you won't be the last to find my suggestions confusing!  LOL!

----------


## XCali

> Ah no.
> 
> I meant centred text _within_ the square of the banner - leaving the banner where it was.
> 
> Sorry I should have been more clear about what I meant!  Doh!
> 
> Centred text like the middle example below - that was all, but don't worry about it or anything 
> 
> Attachment 96640
> ...


Hehe, it's fine.  :Wink:  I am really considering your suggestion. So far I know, I can still change the map in the finished map post?

----------


## Mouse

Oh yes, its fine - if you see something that isn't quite right, just add another comment with an updated map  :Smile:

----------


## XCali

Cool beans.  :Smile: 

***

I know I have posted this map as a finished map. But there are lingering questions that keep popping up in my mind.

For one, I wondered if the BORDER was the right color for this map. This was my first proper border on a map, and I really think, if I remember correctly, it's my first border for a map ever(I've done a few _maps_ for pet projects and the few for my book that is in the process of being published). So, I really don't know how to approach this little conundrum. In the same line, is the border too big?

I think I'll throw a question now and then on here and maybe somewhere along the line do some revisions to the finished map.  :Wink: 

EDIT:
Also can someone tell me how to have the url's in my signature changed to names like almost everone else on this site?

----------


## jizerai

You can use the "Link" button, located in the Edit Signature menu (the globe with a ∞ at the bottom, or rather a chain link).  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Hey XCali  :Smile: 

Only you can tell if a frame or border is the right size, colour, style etc., because it is purely a matter of personal taste  :Smile: 

If you don't feel happy with it, then change it - experiment and see what else you come up with.

----------


## XCali

I tried a brown border and bigger names. To see if it works  :Wink:

----------


## Mouse

You know what?  I really like that one  :Smile: 

You could also try some of the other colours that are already in the map.  I don't think green would be so great, but how about a sandy coloured one?

If you leave the banner exactly where it is, but make the words that are on it centred on the banner, so that the 'of' is in the middle rather than the left hand side, I think that might look better than the way it is right now.  try it and see what you think  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

> You know what?  I really like that one 
> 
> You could also try some of the other colours that are already in the map.  I don't think green would be so great, but how about a sandy coloured one?
> 
> If you leave the banner exactly where it is, but make the words that are on it centred on the banner, so that the 'of' is in the middle rather than the left hand side, I think that might look better than the way it is right now.  try it and see what you think


Cool beans! I'll try the different colors as I go.

For now, here is the brown border with the 'of' in the middle.  :Wink:

----------


## QED42

I really like the concept for this city, it's super unique. Keep up the great work!

----------


## XCali

> I really like the concept for this city, it's super unique. Keep up the great work!


Thanks a lot. I appreciate it  :Wink:

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## XCali

How to delete this thread of mine? @ any Moderator.

I saw it was just taking up space and it was when I first started here, no need to keep it, apart from sentimental value really. So, I'll part ways with this thread.

EDIT : (Decided to let it stay. BUt, if you all wish to delete it in the future to help with space, you have my permission to do so)

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## Kellerica

I don't know if there's any need to delete it, unless you really want me to - I think people do still occasionally like to stroll down the archieves and see all the threads from times gone by. It will get buried over time as new ones emerge anyway. But up to you of course, if you do want it gone, just say the word.

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## XCali

> I don't know if there's any need to delete it, unless you really want me to - I think people do still occasionally like to stroll down the archieves and see all the threads from times gone by. It will get buried over time as new ones emerge anyway. But up to you of course, if you do want it gone, just say the word.


I don't NEED it to be deleted. But doesn't these ancient work in progress threads take space up from the server? (With all the images) 
If that is not a problem then it doesn't bother me. I was just thinking in that line  :Wink:

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## Falconius

You might find they are helpful to you in the future, if for instance you want to revive or redo a project, or just to see your progress.  There's no need to delete your history and it's hard to see what good would come of it.

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## Turambar

I hope there is no need to delete "ancient" WIP threads! I know I for one have learned so much from trolling the depths of this forum through threads like this one.

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## XCali

> You might find they are helpful to you in the future, if for instance you want to revive or redo a project, or just to see your progress.  There's no need to delete your history and it's hard to see what good would come of it.





> I hope there is no need to delete "ancient" WIP threads! I know I for one have learned so much from trolling the depths of this forum through threads like this one.


 You two make fair points. 

I have remastered the map. BUT this thread was where I started my Cartographers guild journey. And if someone finds the journey helpful alongside all the feedback people gave throughout this map's progress, then keep it for the time being.  :Wink:

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## Kellerica

> I hope there is no need to delete "ancient" WIP threads! I know I for one have learned so much from trolling the depths of this forum through threads like this one.



Granted that I'm no admin, but I've never heard of us needing the delete older threads for space purposes. Unless I hear otherwise from our admin team, I see no reason to go around deleting anyone's WIP's  :Smile:

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