# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  WIP : Haerlech

## J.Edward

I started Haerlech for the February map challenge but it got to be too big to get done in time.
So I'm starting a wip thread here to work on completing it.
I'm going to repost the wip images here so people can see the progression without having to go to the challenge thread.
But if you want , here is that thread - http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...ad.php?t=29850
 

 

 

So that's where I left off. I am going to try to do some more today and tomorrow if time allows.
Just wanted to get the thread started to push me to get back to work on it.  :Wink:

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## Domino44

I am so happy to see people finish their challenge maps! Looking great can't wait to see it finished!

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## Ilanthar

I completely agree with Domino44  :Smile: !

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## J.Edward

I agree. I hope more works from challenges get completed.
I often want to see where they will go. Chashio has a several that I want to see finished.  :Smile: 
 Well, I was out today with a family member celebrating her 100th birthday. She's a great lady.
So I haven't had as much time today but I did get some more done.

Still a very long way to go.

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## Diamond

Soooo glad you decided to continue this one!  (If for nothing else because I want to know what 'The Dead' is all about.   :Very Happy:  )

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## J.Edward

Diamond - see, now you're building that up too much. It will surely disappoint.  :Wink:

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## J.Edward

Another update - more buildings, rooflines and such. Still a lot left to do.

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## pasis

This is really great. Cannot wait to see it colored.

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## Ilanthar

Very nice city expansion!

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## arsheesh

This looks great!  Still amazed at how quickly this is coming along.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## ascanius

I have a question.  that ridgeline near the northern gate where the wall travels southeast, is the city below or above?  When I first looked at it I thought the city was above with the wall running below the city instead of along the ridgeline.  When I looked at it again it looks like the city is below.  This leaves me to wornder, if the city is  lower and there is a cliff or ridge above it wouldn't it be really easy for an invading army to rain death from above without having to knock down walls?

Aside from that I really like the map.

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## J.Edward

Hey ascanius. City is below, and yes it would.  :Wink:  I am still on the fence about whether I want to extend the wall. 
Walls are sometimes more than just defense from invaders. Sometimes it's more about control of economics/trading/merchants and such. Or thievery.
Sometimes it has to do with controlling the population inside the walls. 
The expansion was done by a force that invaded and subjected the original population of Haerlech.
That being said, like I said, I'm still on the fence about that area of wall. And a few other spots. It's a WIP so perhaps it may change.  :Smile: 

I thought I'd add, the invaders are the only real force in the area that pose a threat, atm at least.

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## Chashio

Looking very nice!

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## fifty

Looks really good, very neat and great detail! 
I'm super impressed with the speed this is coming along! 

.. wish my own city map was developing at anything like the pace!! lol  :Very Happy:

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## Diamond

> Diamond - see, now you're building that up too much. It will surely disappoint.


Consider it motivation for awesomeness.   :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

Pasis, Ilanthar, Arsheesh, Chashio - thanks guys and gal.  :Smile:  I should have an update tonight sometime.

Fifty - thank you sir. It 's taking a toll. I've gotten to the point a few times where I think why did I start this.
Just got to keep at it I guess. Big cities take a lot. And yours is probably 2-3 times as big.  :Smile: 

Diamond - I've already scrapped 3 ideas for the Dead so far. 'Cause they weren't cool enough.  :Wink:

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## Azélor

It takes a lot of time (now I know) but it's looking good  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

It really does Azelor. I need to develop a faster way to do some of this.
Today was a marathon session of roof lines and roof shadows. Just as I was getting ready to upload the update I noticed that I missed some roofs. Damn. I thought I was done with roof shadows. :Frown:  Oh well, more progress when I can. Here's today's update.

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## Larb

Aren't big cities fun? =P

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## Wingshaw

Missing those roof shadows is a lack of professionalism I wouldn't have expected of you  :Wink: 

This is looking excellent, J.Edward, and I'm really pleased you're continuing it after the challenge. Are you still going to show its evolution, or just the final stages of the city?




> Aren't big cities fun? =P


Is it just me, or is there a real surge in (amazing) city maps at the moment?

THW

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## Sapiento

Impressive.

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## J.Edward

Larb - Oh yes... when can I sleep?  :Wink: 
THW - Thanks. Both maps will be included. I am working on them separately and Haerlech 492 was mostly done already so progress was mainly on Haerlech 864 at this point.
Once they're both at a good point I'll bring them together and work on all the names and borders stuff.
It does seem like cities are getting some love right now.  :Wink: 
Thank you Sap.  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

I've been busy with work so this has taken a back seat. More shadow work on ground areas.
I just saw some roof shadows I'm going to have to fix tomorrow. If I'm lucky the shadow work will be done by tomorrow night.
I love doing cities but working on 3 at the same time is a bit much. Time for the sleeping now.  :Wink:

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## arsheesh

Looking fantastic!  Shading looks great.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Ilanthar

> *By Arsheesh*
>  Shading looks great.


I second that! The final map gonna be awesome.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Arsheesh and Ilanthar. I got most of the main shadows done and started on the roof colors.
I was trying to get a good amount of variation in there but it may be too much. Any thoughts on that would be great.
Getting closer but still a lot left to do. I may get more done this weekend if time permits.

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## SteffenBrand

Wow, this is pretty impressive, J.Edward! I like your attention to even small details, the thought behind the organic layout of the city and everything else!
What program do you use for this? I'd guess Photoshop if not 3D, but it is really a lot of work to do manually... oO

If you want more randomness, try to use a ruin, a building in construction (with cranes or something), muddy areas near the river, a slum with crude wooden roofs, etc. This looks very clean otherwise, but maybe this is exactly what you are trying to achieve. I'd also reduce the brightness of the roofs, this is really too random IMO. =)

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## J.Edward

Thanks Steffen. I was thinking it was more colors than looked right. Yep, all done in PS. And yes, it is a lot to do manually.  :Wink: 

Those are all excellent ideas. There should be some ruins, just not sure where I would want to put them. At this scale I'm not sure if the 'in construction' would show well but I like that. With rivers, it usually depends on what I am thinking the land is like near the river. I should use that with another city I'm working on though.
In this particular city a slum would not be indicated. I did do some slums in another city map I'm working on but it's a much different style of map.
The original walled town had a certain set of roof colors. I wanted the outer city to looked different as it was built by foreign rulers/invaders/new people. 
I had thought they might be getting different materials for roof tiles. Maybe something a bit more uniform would look more like that effect.

Any other opinions on roof color... I'll be finishing those this weekend if I can and making changes to color as well.
Again, thanks Steffen.  :Smile: 

edit - I just got what you meant about clean. Yes, I do need more small elements in there. I am going to be adding stuff on the docks, boats [I have to make some placeable boat elements first], maybe getting some trees in there. Other stuff if it occurs to me. Though I really do want to get this finished... now I'm just adding more work.  :Wink:

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## SteffenBrand

Hahaha, I know the problem. I'd love to post my last work I made (which kind of had the same problem) but unfortunately I'm not allowed yet. Also, kudos to the work you put in there, I'd love to see the final result! If I could, I'd throw rep at you already  :Wink:

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## J.Edward

Steffen - when do you think you'll be able to show your last work? Do you have to wait till something is published and out?

Since earlier today, I have messed around with some other colors for the roofs but I'm not liking that either.
I may have to start over on the colors. The original town had some fairly colorful roofs and it looked okay. But once you get a whole city like that it looks off.
Well, I'll keep plugging away at it.

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## J.Edward

I forgot to add the image.  :Wink: 
So here's some alternate roof colors. Less saturated.
Any opinions welcome.

And together, just for the sake of progress.  :Smile:

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## SteffenBrand

Yes, unfortunately. I think it will be in May, but - fingers crossed - maybe before. (I'm able to show a small area to tease, like this thou... see below)
I'm sure you find a probable solution. Reddish-brown seems okay on first glance, maybe a bit darker. =)


And here are some WIP of smaller areas. Unfortunately I can't post it in it's whole glory.  :Wink:  Maybe this will just show you what I meant about much work on details. You will also notice that it is a WIP, the colors are chancing throughout the three images. Last one is pretty much final. (c)Ulisses Spiele & Distribution GmbH

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## Larb

I think the less desaturated colours on the recent version look better. Really roofs don't tend to show much variation - they are often all made from the same local material so can look pretty uniform (and boring).

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## - Max -

I also tend to prefer less desatutated colors, especially since you're using different roof colors. Surrounding terrain color though might have some sort of influence of it, you will probably have to adjust it  at a later stage (or not  :Very Happy: ) Anyway, very nice job so far!

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## lostatsea

I am really glad you are finishing this . It is really coming along well!

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## J.Edward

Steffen - that looks like it is pretty cool. I'll be anxious to see that one.  :Smile: 

Larb and Max. Thanks for the input. I'm a bit confused though - you both said you liked the less desaturated... meaning you like the saturated version?
Well, at this point I may just go back and do one main color for the roofs on both versions. More like Frosthaven. I do like the look of that more. It's more uniform and to me, more visually pleasing. And as you said Larb, that is really more how it would be. Oh well, more repainting. C'est la vie.  :Wink: 

lostatsea - thanks sir.  :Smile:

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## Larb

Err, I meant less saturated. I like the version with desaturated colours more. Although keep in mind I have a preference for desaturated colours anyway.

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## J.Edward

I do too. I sort of figured that was what you two had meant.  :Wink: 
I started doing more colorful work because most people like saturated stuff, and as an illustrator I have to appeal to a wider market.
I will admit that I am not nearly as adept at subtle desaturated color as say, Max for example. I really admire his style and color work.

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## Larb

Yes, I like Max's colour work too. One of the reasons I am doing my current map completely hand painted is so I can try and break out of the usual predetermined palettes I use for town maps.

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## J.Edward

Okay. Terracotta it is. That was what I was originally going to do so that is what I returned to. It might seem dull but it looks better to me. Well, for this city at least.
Still, any critiques or thoughts are still welcome. I could change it all again [though I really doubt it].  :Wink: 
So far... still much more to do...


I hear ya Larb. Breaking habits can be tough. I still find that I return to some that I thought were changed.

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## Wingshaw

I think going with terracotta is a good idea, but you can make it a bit more varied. There could be different hues of terracotta (eg, where old tiles had to be replaced with new ones), and some buildings could be covered by different materials (important buildings might be given metal sheet roofing, for instance).

One little criticism (and this might just be personal opinion, in which case ignore it), I think the cliffs look very smooth, and not rough enough (compared, for instance, to the areas around the harbour). I really like the shading on them, though.

THW

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## J.Edward

Hey THW. I still have more roof work to do. I am already using 8-10 color variations, though more subtle this time. I am trying a few things today to give some other variation.
Plus I still have a sort of grungy/dirt layer to add over top of the roofs once I'm done with the color. Same goes with the roads/paths.

The cliffs, well, they were drawn at different times. I may have done a better job on the newer areas by the sea. I'll look over them again.
That's the point of a wip, finding ways to improve.  :Wink: 
Thanks for the input.

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## J.Edward

Finally starting on the land forms. One of my favorite parts.  :Smile: 
This is just a quick preliminary stage of shape and shadow. More to be done.

I did more to the roofs and to the cliffs.
May have another update tonight if I can get enough done today.

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## arsheesh

Very snazzy!  Always a pleasure watching one of your pieces come together Sir.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Domino44

Lovely so far!

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## J.Edward

Last update for the weekend. Got a good bit done today but not as much as I'd hoped. Still, it's getting there.

Thanks Arsheesh and Domino.  :Smile:

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## Abu Lafia

Due to my lacking english vocabulary (espacially varieties of praises): this map of Haerlech is just ... herrlich!  Btw. there is much to learn from this WIP-thread, thanks!

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## Meshon

This is fantastic. And I'm starting to learn that there just aren't shortcuts for some things, so major respect to the time you've put in and the quality that's come out.

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## ChickPea

It's fantastic to watch this come together. I'm really enjoying the posts.

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## Ilanthar

Wow, you're going fast on this! Great work, I love the way you manage the reliefs.

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## Meshon

I was just having a close look at your latest and I'm wondering if you've tried adding any kind of edges to your flowing water. I'm not sure exactly what would work, maybe just a think dark line. The cliff tops look amazing, the detail on the grass. I really love this map.

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## J.Edward

Abu - that's cool. Herrlich - I like that. It sort of works for the town's original inhabitants.  :Smile: 
Thanks ChickPea.  :Smile: 
Thanks Ilanthar. I'm doing more comms during the week and having to make up for it on the weekend. Regarding the reliefs, I may change them some but it has most of the feel I was going for.
Meshon - thank you sir.  :Smile:  Yep, it takes quite a lot doing a progression of a city. More than I had anticipated.
Regarding the water, I have not gotten to that yet on Haerlech 864. However you can see what I am going to be doing in this pic of Haerlech 492 -

Disregard the roof colors in it. Those will have to be redone to the new terracotta color scheme.

I also still have to create boat elements and a bunch of other little elements for the city.

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## Sharpsmile

This city is looking epic!  The level of detail in the design is great, it is so organic and really feels like it could be a thriving coastal city.  Are you planning on adding in any ships at the port?  Roof color, hmm, are the roofs primarily stone, wood or a mix?  What sort of materials are available in the area?  what is the climate like?  What sort of culture is it?  I get a Mediterranean feel, I like the blues of the smaller buildings down by the water.


~Sharpie

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## Sharpsmile

Oops I responded to an earlier part of the thread in my last posting, I just saw the post you have on page 5...your map looks wonderful!  The roof colors are great and make the town feel solid and cohesive.


~Sharpie

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## J.Edward

Thanks Sharpie.  :Smile: 
You might have seen it above... yep, still have boats and ships to do, amongst various other things to go in there.
And then once all that's ready I still have to combine the 2 maps into one cohesive map with info and such.
So still quite a lot to do.

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## fabio p

I praise the terracotta colour scheme, even though it’s a mediterranean/Italian style of colour for roofs/houses, while Haerleach may seem a more  “Nordic” city according to her name.
Anyway great wip, this is going to be a fantastic map.

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## J.Edward

I agree with that Fabio. It's one of the problems with only showing roofs - your choices for color and what those choices imply.
The most probable roof material would have been wood or slate shingle, or even thatch. I tried some browns for wood and some greys for slate but was not happy with how that looked. Usually I would draw the roof tiles/shingles and it would not be a problem. But with this city being as large as it is, drawing in shingles wasn't going to happen. I did try it but it just made the roofs look messy and dark. I just need to work out a style for roofs when I do cities like this.

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## fabio p

> Usually I would draw the roof tiles/shingles and it would not be a problem. But with this city being as large as it is, drawing in shingles wasn't going to happen.


But it would be ok for the upcoming decennial challenge!  :Razz:

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## J.Edward

:Smile:  Maybe. That would be a real commitment.
I've been playing with a couple ideas for that particular challenge. 
I'm still not sure which I would want to proceed with.

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## Meshon

Oh yeah, the flowing water looks great. I should never have doubted  :Wink:

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## J.Edward

Thanks Meshon. No worries sir.  :Wink: 
Hopefully I'll be getting to more of Haerlech today and this weekend.
I am trying to get some boat/ship elements made so I can move along with the water areas.

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## ascanius

Hey, so I really like what you have so far, it's looking really nice.  I do think there are a few areas that need work, mostly that ridge near the northwest docks where it goes from shadow to light, it looks, like it's warped or twisted.  I think part of the problem is the black line at the base of the ridge and maybe shadows.  One thing I think will bring everything out is to use stronger shadows, especially right where the buildings meet the ground, right now the shadows lack depth.

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## J.Edward

Hey ascanius. Can you highlight on the map specifically what you're addressing?

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## ascanius

Ignore the random black line below 1.

Its the spot where the arrow is.  I think the problems are due to areas like the spot labled 1 where the base of the cliff is so close to the contures of the houses and their shadows that it gives it the impression of the same height.

Also, and this i'm not sure about yet, the length of that cliff especially those long lines give the impression of a very shallow slope but then it splits to two steepers slopes.  It's sorta an optical illusion, but its the same idea as long horizontal lines giving the impression of wide and long vertical lines giving impression of height.  So those long lines the way they are make it look like it has a gentle slope then gets pinched into two steep slopes wich makes it look warped.  I'm doing a crap job at explaining this so hopefully that makes sense.

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## J.Edward

I think I see what you're saying. There are a few things I can try to change the effect there.
As a curiosity, I wondered if it would look as odd upside down. So I rotated it and it didn't seem to look as off from that view.
Does it seem that way to you?

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## ascanius

Ok that was interesting.  At first it didn't look as off, everything looked off/wierd.  It took me a few seconds for my brain to orient the light source/the sun as coming from below.  It's funny I automatically orient light as coming from up even though in a paintings and such it can come from any direction because it is not dpendent on the sun.  But your right its not as noticable.  Thanks though you've given me something to ponder about my own map.

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## J.Edward

I'm still going to mess with that area and see what I can do there.
It is interesting. It's part of why I am now trying to move away from that style of cliff. 
It just seems to be problematic when you do it from multiple angles in the same piece.
But it's here to stay in this piece and one or two others I have going so I'll have to work with it some more.

Now, off to make boats and ships.  :Smile:

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## Chashio

The extra saturation helped some, and makes more sense, too, if you're going with a brightly lit natural daylight scene as the shadows suggest... but because you're doing that it feels odd to have the black outlines, such as the base-of-cliff line that ascanius pointed out (though it does jump out less with the added saturation). Also, fun little aside: Painters often put the light coming from the left because it reads more naturally for people who read text left to right. You might try putting the water at the bottom and see how that looks... while you're at it. Of course it's me but, if I were doing a bird's-eye-view of this place I would probably lean toward the water at the bottom so you get the extra higher-points-near-the-top aspect going for it. But I also like what you're doing with it, so ignore me.  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

I think I understand what you're saying chashio. It's something I do that seems to put people off at times - mixing line drawing style with more realistic rendering style.
I think that's what your speaking about. It's a weird personal choice. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't.

I think for my next outdoor scene I will try using the left side light source. I don't usually do that and I try to break habits when I can.
You know, I'm not sure if I've done a piece with the water at the bottom. I've done it from all other sides, but not the bottom. I'll have to try that too.  :Wink: 

Yeah, at this point I wouldn't change everything here as it involves 2 versions of the city. But I will keep it in mind for the next time.
Oh wait... I just remembered Frosthaven. That had the water at the bottom. I just went back and looked and it also had light from the left.  :Smile: 
http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...ad.php?t=29925
I'm getting old. Memory is not what it used to be.

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## Chashio

> I think I understand what you're saying chashio. It's something I do that seems to put people off at times - mixing line drawing style with more realistic rendering style.
> I think that's what your speaking about. It's a weird personal choice. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't.


Well, sort of. I was looking at it more from an artistic perspective or, well, you'll see what I mean. You know the landscape painting rule that says "cool colors recede and don't put warm colors in the background because they'll jump forward off the page and kill the viewer" ... or something like that, haha! I'm very tired and have forgotten how to more accurately and succinctly explain my point (for anyone who is curious enough to read on, I apologize), but anyway... contrasting values can have a similar effect. 

In this case, your solid black lines around the cliffs work better in the areas where there is a distinct change in value on either side (the natural edges of light and shadow) and also in the shadows where the value is the same on both sides but also darker so there's less contrast between the line and the stuff around it. It doesn't work so well in the areas where both sides of the line are lighter, like at the base of the cliff; it throws off the local depth perception, making it difficult for the eye to interpret. If you were to use some kind of technique to soften the lines in the "light|light" areas--perhaps using a thinner line to keep it consistent with other parts of the map, or using a broken line, or other options, it might help things read better while keeping your mixed line art / realistic style intact... which is quite nice  :Smile:  and I'm going to sleep now.

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## ascanius

> Also, fun little aside: Painters often put the light coming from the left because it reads more naturally for people who read text left to right. You might try putting the water at the bottom and see how that looks... while you're at it. Of course it's me but, if I were doing a bird's-eye-view of this place I would probably lean toward the water at the bottom so you get the extra higher-points-near-the-top aspect going for it. But I also like what you're doing with it, so ignore me.


You know, thats something I've wondered about.  I've noticed that almost everyone has the sun comething fromt the left, It started to make me feel wierd because I always put it on the right.  Thanks for the info my curiousity is quenched.




> I think I understand what you're saying chashio. It's something I do that seems to put people off at times - mixing line drawing style with more realistic rendering style.
> I think that's what your speaking about. It's a weird personal choice. Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't.


It's not a problem with your choice in style or how your doing the map, it's more of a technical error.  Your style looks very good and it works very well but it also allows for little technical problems to pop up but those problems can exist for any style.  I just don't want you to change things thinking it's a problem with your style when it's not.





> Well, sort of. I was looking at it more from an artistic perspective or, well, you'll see what I mean. You know the landscape painting rule that says "cool colors recede and don't put warm colors in the background because they'll jump forward off the page and kill the viewer" ... or something like that, haha! I'm very tired and have forgotten how to more accurately and succinctly explain my point (for anyone who is curious enough to read on, I apologize), but anyway... contrasting values can have a similar effect. 
> 
> In this case, your solid black lines around the cliffs work better in the areas where there is a distinct change in value on either side (the natural edges of light and shadow) and also in the shadows where the value is the same on both sides but also darker so there's less contrast between the line and the stuff around it. It doesn't work so well in the areas where both sides of the line are lighter, like at the base of the cliff; it throws off the local depth perception, making it difficult for the eye to interpret. If you were to use some kind of technique to soften the lines in the "light|light" areas--perhaps using a thinner line to keep it consistent with other parts of the map, or using a broken line, or other options, it might help things read better while keeping your mixed line art / realistic style intact... which is quite nice  and I'm going to sleep now.


This ^  is a much better explination than mine.

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## J.Edward

Chashio - I think that makes it clearer. The problem for me with that is that I draw all the lines before doing any color and so would have to go back, erase and redraw lines to fit afterwards. I'm not lazy, per se, but that makes me feel lazy right now.  :Wink:  I can see what you mean, but will have to consider the time investment there.
Oh, I meant to add - no, I didn't know the landscape painting rule.  :Wink: 

ascanius - I thought more people seemed to have the light coming from the top right. I don't know, maybe I'll have to investigate that on more maps. That's my default direction. I try to break out of that but it creeps back in when I'm not actively thinking about it.
As for the style thing, I would say it is somewhat a style issue. As I said to chashio, I draw all the lines first then do the color later. That is where the problem seems to lie.
I had this issue with doing weapon concept art. Eventually I just stopped using the linework because too many people seemed to have issue with it because of how they thought it looked. It's odd to me. With comic and anime art people are okay with the linework but for many other things they aren't. C'est la vie.

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## Ilanthar

That's a very interesting discussion about light and shadows. I chose to put the light on the right because it's the east on my map and prefer a "rising sun" light.




> *By J.Edward*
> With comic and anime art people are okay with the linework but for many other things they aren't. C'est la vie.


Actually, I like your maps partly because they have kind of a "comics" feeling.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Ilanthar.  :Smile: 
You know, I didn't actually think about the physical sun and its transition across the sky.
That is something I should be taking into account as well. Thanks for that input. 
It's surprising I didn't think about that... or maybe it's embarrassing that I didn't.  :Surprised:

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## Chashio

I've seen all kinds of light angles on maps and it can of course come from any direction you desire. It makes more sense to me to use a natural direction for the region first, then decide which direction to orient the map based on the compositon and how the terrain elements read under the lighting - and I might go with morning or evening light depending on what feels right for the setting--but that works for me. 

When I'm just sketching or experimenting I find that sometimes I put the light on the left and other times on the right, and it just depends on what my hand does naturally when I start. Some days I can't for the life of me draw the light on the side I intended to, which is very annoying but no matter how I look at it it just looks wrong.

And I do like your style very much. Didn't mean to imply that it doesn't work overall. Also not implying that you need to go back and rework anything... just pointing out the points that didn't work for me.

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## J.Edward

It's interesting to know how people work. You are thinking about things at the beginning that I often am not thinking about until later.
That is where some problems crop up for me at times. I sit down, sketch out the whole layout in pencil with no thought to the lighting.
Maybe that's partly because at that point i could light it from any direction. I guess it depends. If it's a more finished drawing then I will have decided and started to draw in shadows. But that only happens when I think the drawing will be done as a full finished drawing, not just a sketch that will be done as color later.

Haha, no worries chashio. I didn't take it that way.
I like these discussions because it brings up things I don't think about sometimes.
I don't always actively think about my process and workflow, but when someone brings up points like these it makes me think about how I work and why do I do it that way.

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## J.Edward

So along with everything else I'm doing I was trying to get some boats drawn up for Haerlech's harbor.
I started on a few. These are just some of the first. I really wanted the harbor to be full of all sorts of different boats and ships.
We'll see if my enthusiasm for that continues. I have a wide variety sketched up and will work on those when I can.
Shading has to wait until they are placed on the map, which means I'll have to shade every boat individually but what can you do.

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## Meshon

Great ships! I'm really excited that you're going to put them in. I think it will add a sense of busyness and life and motion to the map. Not that I think those things are missing, just that it will add to what's already there. If that makes sense. Good grief, it's just a terrific map!

Did you use vector software for the ships? I may have missed it if you already said what tools you're using.

cheers,
Meshon

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## Larb

Won't the ships lose a lot of detail and definition when you shrink them down? It's usually an issue if I do something that big and detailed and then put it on a map. They look great though, by the way.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Meshon. No vector. Probably should have though. Drawn in PS.  :Wink: 
Larb - we will see. The original map is really big. I can work some magic on them once they get worked into the map.
It may become a problem. Only time will tell. And then I will have learned a very valuable lesson about usage of time and all.  :Razz:

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## Ilanthar

Wow, you're multi-task! Excellent ships, very detailed and clean job. I share the worries with Larb about reducing them, though. I hope the final render won't kill those details.

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## J.Edward

Well, time has proven itself. I will be doing new smaller res boats for Haerlech. Oh well, not the end of the world.
That just means it will drag on longer now till I can finish it up. Larb and Ilanthar - thanks for bringing that up. [No really...]  :Razz:

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## Ilanthar

I'm gonna watch closely how you're doing those boats anyway. I'll need a few river boats for Tarantia, so...

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## ChickPea

Wow, these look great! Your attention to detail is phenomenal.

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## J.Edward

Ilanthar - I'm not sure if my map is of a similar size/res but when I do the new ones if they would work for yours I can send them to you.
Thank you ChickPea. I'm trying a lot of stuff with this map.  :Smile:

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## Ilanthar

> *By J.Edward*
> I'm not sure if my map is of a similar size/res but when I do the new ones if they would work for yours I can send them to you.


Thanks, that's very generous! But I want to learn by doing it myself if possible... And river boats should be different (in fact, I've looked again on that superb Bridge District map, and there is a very good one boat on it).
That said, I would be curious to see how you work to do those great ships (and learn from it)!

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## J.Edward

No problem Ilanthar. I would do the same.  :Wink: 
For the boats I put up already, I can try to put a little something together to show how I went about it.
It's pretty straight forward. A few little tricks but mostly straight stuff.

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## Ilanthar

> *By J.Edward*
>  A few little tricks but mostly straight stuff.


Yep, but sometimes, the little tricks make all the difference (and/or are sparing a lot of time)  :Wink:

----------


## J.Edward

That's very true.  :Smile: 
I will try to get to something by the weekend if I can. I still have to try to finish the challenge too.  :Wink:

----------


## J.Edward

Well, much time has passed and I'm finally getting back to this map.
I was able to get the water mostly done today. Still need to go back and make new boats, sadly.
I realized that I will have to redo the first Haerlech map so the roof tiles will be similar.
Not looking forward to that but what can you do.
I did finally come up with 2 layout variations for the combined map.
Time will tell which one of those gets used. Well, here's the map atm.

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## ChickPea

Oh, look at the nice cliffs!  :Wink: 

But seriously, this is quality work. Is this all done in PS too, or do you use Illustrator (sorry, you might have mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I'm too tired to read through 9 pages of posts.) It's hard for me personally to imagine drawing all those houses in an image editor, whereas I find vector programs so much easier to use for stuff like this. But then, I don't have your art skills!

Your water looks great. I like the rich blue tone and the way it fades into the shallows. I also really like the shading on the green of the surrounding landscape. Will you be adding to the countryside area, with trees/plants/more texture or whatever? I sorta feel it would benefit from that.

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## J.Edward

Thanks ChickPea.  :Smile:  It's all done in PS.
Lacking good skills for replicating my buildings I end up drawing everything individually.
It probably is not the most effective use of time but that's how I roll.
I am trying to do some replication with the boats I'm adding.
I have found that the more frequently I draw stuff in PS the faster I get at it so over time it is taking me less and less time to do certain things like that.

I was just thinking about trees and such today. Those would likely get drawn individually which makes me want to hesitate in doing them but I know it does need more out there in the wilds beyond the wall.  :Very Happy:  So, sadly, I probably will. So much time... so much time.  :Neutral:

----------


## ChickPea

Jeez, I don't want to think about how long it took to create all those buildings, though it's nice that you're getting faster. If PS works for you, then that's what counts. It's all down to which software you're more comfortable with. I feel like Inkscape helps me out with my sub-par drawing!  :Very Happy: 

I hope you do fill out the landscape a little. After all, who needs to eat and sleep?  :Razz:

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## J.Edward

Haha, eat and sleep indeed.  :Very Happy: 
I keep meaning to put more time and effort into vector but it is so not natural for me.
Mischief was seeming like a good vector option but the output sucked, or rather I could not get an exported image that looked right.
It was bliss to use though. Basically drawing vector like using a brush in PS. Everything looked so nice and clean. 
The exported image did not look like what I was seeing in program. I still need to get support to help me with why it doesn't seem to work for me.

Anyhow.... all boats in and shaded. Way more boats than expected.


edit - Looking at this just now, I might need just a hint of wake behind the boats that are to be moving so they don't look like they just sitting still.

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## ChickPea

I'm not 100% sure about the widely offset shadows on a couple of the boats. They sorta look like they're flying above the water, rather than floating on it, but, yeah, some wake will probably fix that (I did not know 'wake' was the word for the waves/churned up water behind a boat. You learn something new every day!)

I hadn't particularly noticed all your linework on the little rocky island on the left before. It looks fantastic!

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## tainotim

Very nice J. Edward. The "port" area is lovely. I'm always amazed with this kind of huge top down city map. Looks like so much work. 

The only thing bothering me with this is the grass. It's so bright, and so full of contrasts, that it almost dominates over the more important parts of the map (the city). Wish it was lighter, and more subtle like in the Frosthaven map (However, seeing that Frosthaven is one of my top three favorite contemporary maps, I'm very bias towards it  :Razz:  )

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## snodsy

Thanks once again for sharing your process, I think I need to refine my ideas better before starting them in photoshop.

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## J.Edward

ChickPea - the shadow of the boat is falling on the floor of the sea given the direction of the light, which is why the shadow appears further away as the boats get farther out into the water. Technically there would also be a second shadow just on the surface of the water but I thought that would look confusing to the viewer's eyes so I didn't add that.
The wake would possibly help 'ground' the boats to the water surface and help them not look like they're floating.
Yeah, that was a newish style thing - probably shouldn't have added that since I had already done rock in a different style. Live and learn, eh?  :Wink: 

tainotim - Thanks.  :Smile:  It is a lot of work. I think I've spent more time on this map than any other to date.
The contrast with the grass is shadows to denote change in elevation. The dark being shadow being cast. The area is supposed to be quite hilly.
If it were lighter like Frosthaven, I think it might look too pale next to that saturated sea and dark roof color.
Frosthaven was done to appear as much like watercolor as I could do digitally, as per the clients request. So it is lighter as watercolor.
I am going to try to add some vegetation in there to add more interest beyond the walls, though I'm not looking forward to the added work and time.
Perhaps that may alleviate your feelings regarding the grass.  :Smile: 

My pleasure snodsy.  :Smile:  It helps me many times to go through the wip process.
I often end up with a different map than I would have otherwise. Most times better.
I have found, using sketch layers, that I can try a bunch of things out in PS and refine them there.
Though I would still say that a well drawn sketch before hand helps far more for me.
The more crystalized the idea is before starting in PS usually the better it comes out in the end.
Frosthaven and Bourmout are good examples of that.

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## Ilanthar

Wow... The waters are really impressive. So lively! Are those ships flying? The shadows make them fly imho.

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## J.Edward

Haha, no Ilanthar.  :Smile:  They just don't look like they should.  :Wink: 
So I did some wakes behind some boats to help 'ground' them to the water surface.
I also sketched in some speculative trees/woods. Those might change. I may do some fields, may not.
At this stage though I'm not sure that the original layout plan really works anymore with such a colorful piece.
Might have to revise that or just come up with a new plan.

----------


## Larb

I have to agree with the flying appearance although I can see what you are trying to do. Hopefully a wake will fix that a bit like you say. Also I have to agree - the water looks really lovely.

You know you are going to have a lot of labels to put on this though. =P

By the way - what sort of settings do you use for your linework in Photoshop? I am curious. I really like how this is turning out and I'm not sure whether I will make Argot a top-down map or an isometric one.

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## J.Edward

Err... I guess the wakes I did in that last update aren't showing well enough?
Hopefully you just hadn't seen that yet.  :Very Happy:  
Sometimes it's hard to get the right mix of visibility at lower res and just overdoing it.

You're right - lots of labels, and I'm not looking forward to that. 
I want to do road labels too but that might get a little small/tight.

I'll try to answer that about the lines though I'm not sure specifically what lines you're referring to.
Most of the time I am using a basic round brush at 90% hardness. It is mostly 100% opacity and between 50-70% flow.
I have pressure sensitivity and have shape dynamics on with size jitter set to pen pressure and usually angle jitter set to direction, though with a basic brush angle jitter doesn't make that much difference. I use a lighter than black tone for my lines. I can give you the info for that if you want it. I'd have to check in PS.

I also use another basic brush for soft stuff. That's set to 40% opacity and 30% flow. 
I think other setting might be the same except hardness is way down, maybe 10-20 %.

And I use a smudge brush. Nothing special there. And that's really it for most all my work.
I have made some texture brushes I that I have used some but not as often.
I'm really trying to get to where I can everything with those 3 brushes. It works most of the time.

If all of that was not what you were asking about, just let me know more specifically what you're after and I'll try to answer back.  :Smile: 

edit - I thought I should add - I do a lot with layer properties [multiply, soft light, etc] and layer opacity. 
Sometimes I do that rather than change the brushes around.

Thought of one other thing to add regarding top down vs iso - I like top down if I'm trying to convey a lot of location info/labels and iso/perspective to get a better feel for the town and its architecture. I found iso to sort of block a lot of things that I wanted to show.

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## Larb

Yes, I hadn't see the reply when I posted. Thanks for the brush info. I am wanting to try some different line styles to see if I can achieve a different effect on some of my stuff. I also try to use mainly basic brushes too but for lines I use the brush in SAI which produces smooth black lines.

It might be worth adding the start of some agricultural fields on the south side of the city where the terrain looks a little flatter. Just to give some sense of fields being near the city. Gives the people something else to eat instead of just fish, razor clams, and seaweed... =P

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## J.Edward

I've meant to try SAI. It looks interesting. Every so often I try different programs to see if they might be better for certain things.
What sort of effect[s] are you looking to produce? I might have some input or have tried something that might be helpful.
I used to make a lot of different brushes in the past, for PS at least.

Actually, I started doing some fields and a vineyard north of town and was going to do some more fields south as well.  :Very Happy: 
Might have an update on that tonight or tomorrow morning if time permits.
With a port that big, they could also import a ton of food from other areas as well I think.

----------


## J.Edward

I've started in on some forest, fields, trees and orchards along with a few more roads and paths.
Just roughing in right now. Forest and trees are just a base color. Loads more to do.

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## Chashio

Well, it's looking excellent so far.  :Smile:

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## Ilanthar

Yup, this is getting really awesome! Concerning the flying ships (he, remember I'm not obsessed with flying things in cities  :Razz: ), I think I got this impression because of the shadows. The wakes are really good, but I still have this feeling that they are flying. Why the shadow are so afar from the boats? Do you wanted to gave a sense of the water depth, like if we actually see the boat's shadow on the sand under the water (by transparency)?

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## JonPin

Wow! This is an amazing map. The level of detail is mind blowing. Did you use sketchup for the initial shapes?

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## J.Edward

Thanks Chashio.  :Smile: 
Thanks JP.  :Smile:  nope, just PS.
Thank you Ilanthar.  :Smile: 
I may have to try something that 'grounds' the boats better then. I thought the wakes would help.
I did a quick pic to show why the shadows are as they are.

Yep, shadow on the bottom sand. I wanted to try to convey the depth and transparency of the water.

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## su_liam

Yeah, I get what you're trying to do with the shadows, but it really wouldn't make sense unless you can see details of the bottom(sand, coral, fish, crabs, rocks, whatever…). With the kind of symbolic blue it's just confusing. Even with more realistically depicted water the deeper the water, the more caustics would obliterate the shadows. Rather than depending on shadows, maybe reflections on the water surface? Definitely the reflections or major shadows should be on the surface.

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## Gamerprinter

Yes, even if you could see shadows underwater under the boat, it would be greatly diffused, and probably a shade of blue, not true shadow colors. I'll include such shadows beneath flying objects over land with greater distance between object and shadow, the further the object is from the ground, but I wouldn't do that to water shadows. If the observer of the shadow was underwater as well, that might be different.

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## J.Edward

Thanks for the input su_liam and GP. 
I looked over some pics of boats in harbors and will concede your points about the shadows.
I'll make some corrections when I get back into the map.

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## su_liam

Hmm. This could be interesting.

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## J.Edward

That was what I had been thinking su-liam.  :Smile:  
Though when I saw some pics where the boats were in a bit deeper water I couldn't really see their shadows.
This pic convinced me. Only one underwater shadow. Mostly just shadows on the water surface.

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## su_liam

And, although its generally a good sea-symbol blue, underwater rocks, and to a much lesser degree, the topography of the sea bottom, are prominent. It's an interesting effect, used sparingly for some really beautifully clear water, but it needs to be damn near photorealistic to work well. 

As a map, even the photorealistic depiction is problematic. There are places on Google Earth where it's really hard to figure out exactly where the shore is at. A good depiction of high and low tide is wonderful, ambiguity… less so.

I don't think I've said this yet, so, before I get into any more obnoxious criticism, I'm really liking your town.

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## Kiba

This map is FABULOUS! Maybe it's just my monitor, but the colors are perfectly done and I think the grass shades on the side and top are a really nice break from the browns/tans of the city. The blues of the sea are fantastic, and ye gods that massive port! It's the epitome of a giant coastal city.

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## J.Edward

Wow, it's raining like a monsoon here. I'm glad I have a battery backup or this version would be lost.  :Wink: 
I changed the boat shadows and have done more work on the outer areas.
Lots of shadows and trees and some buildings. Orchards, vineyard, woods, farms that still need fields....
Still tons of stuff still to do. All trees are just a base color - still need texture and shadow/highlights.


Thanks su-liam.  :Smile:  I try things. They don't always work out, but I keep trying new things.
Thanks as well Kiba.  :Smile:  I'm about to go comment on your thread in a moment.

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## ChickPea

All praise the gods of battery backups!

This is looking bloody fantastic, if I may say so! The outlying regions are developing beautifully and I love the crops and how the field areas are coming together. It's such a privilege to watch you 'grow' your town.  :Smile:

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## Larb

I like the way all the little fields look. By the way what is that big round road patch in the north for?

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## J.Edward

Thanks ChickPea.  :Smile:  I'm trying to come up with some new ways to render fields and plan to try some new types of fields.
Might prove interesting. We'll see.  :Wink: 
Thank you Larb.  :Smile:  That is going to be a round set of buildings that are then surrounded by some farms.
I should be starting on those northern buildings sometime tonight.

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## J.Edward

Got the buildings done and some road work.
Must stop for the night... so I can go work on a different map.  :Very Happy:

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## Kiba

Good lord, that thing is magnificent! It's like watching a little timeline of the city's growth inland from the coast.

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## Abu Lafia

Yeah, this is really stunning. Great job J.! The surroundings are just spectacular.  :Smile:

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## Meriba

Fantastic so far and getting better! I love the harbour.

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## Francissimo

I haven' look at this wip thread for a while, and when i opened your map i say wowww. Amazing work, this will be a masterpiece for sure :Smile:

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## su_liam

Definitely a work of art rather than a simple map. Kind of makes you want to go exploring!

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## J.Edward

Thanks Kiba.  :Very Happy:  That is a great comment. That's what it feels like - building this town. Like slowly crawling inland.  :Wink: 

Thanks Abu.  :Smile:  I wasn't looking forward to all the additional work but it does seem like it needed it.

Thank you Meriba.  :Smile:  All those boats was part of what kept me from getting back to this map for so long.

Thanks Francissimo.  :Smile:  It will probably be 2 maps when I'm done. 
One will be this Haerlech 864 map and then a second map that has the progression of Haerlech 492 to Haerlech 864.
That second map might be done as a more monochrome thing on parchment or something.

Thanks su_liam.  :Very Happy:  When I'm a bit closer to completion I might put up the surrounding lands near Haerlech.
That might be worth exploring.

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## Malicious-Monkey

I love the cliff style you used on the harbor island. Is there any reason you didn't use the same style for the coastal cliffs? Are they meant to be different grades?

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## J.Edward

Thanks Malicious.  :Smile: 
Well, it is sort of 2 reasons. I started with the old style cliffs, the mainland ones.
When I got to the coast I wanted the cliff/stone rise to be different. Different type of stone and different kind of cliff.
I had another city map I was working on that used the other style, the harbor style, and used that for the harbor.

However, that 2nd style of cliff was developed after the first and it's half because I liked the new style better.
It's a more descriptive style. You get a better feel for what is really going on with the cliff.
I should then have redone all the old cliffs and used the new style.... but.. that would have just been insane loads of work.
So I ended up having 2 styles in one map.  :Surprised:   :Razz:

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## ChickPea

I think you can get away with it by arguing that the harbour island is a lot craggier than the other cliffs. Sounds like a good reason to me! I don't blame you at all for not wanting to redo everything. That would be an insane amount of work.

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## J.Edward

I was trying to determine some things about Haerlech but hadn't really done much of the area around it so I got to mapping some other bits around this area of Luma.
It probably should go in a different thread but for now it's just dropping in here.
I am still trying to refine an atlas style that I started a long time ago and had greatly improved on with the Middle Earth maps.
So this is a two-fold thing. Furthering the atlas style and figuring out the Haerlech area.
I'm pretty far from done with this region map but felt like posting it so you could see where Haerlech sits.

----------


## Malicious-Monkey

I love the way you incorporated the elevation tick marks. It's hard to pull off a mixture of realistic and symbolic mapping elements, but this works beautifully. Up close you can see the symbols, but when zoomed out it just looks like part of the shading and texturing.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Malicious.  :Smile: 
Yeah, I like adding graphic things like that with the realistic. But you're right, it doesn't always work.
As I add more detail to the land I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep those little lines.
I tried a few different things but none really looked better, so they're there for now.
Here's a bit more of the area map. Added some more cities and more detail.

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## ChickPea

Interesting! Looking forward to seeing this one fill out.

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## Kiba

More awesome work! Keep it coming!

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## Wolram

The texturing on the land is awesome, it has a real feeling of depth!

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## JonPin

Very clear elevation. I can just imagine being in the landscape. Very cool!

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## J.Edward

ChickPea, Kiba, Wolram and JP - thanks all.  :Smile: 
I've gotten a bit more done on the main Haerlech map but don't have an update ready atm.
I'm working on the tree shadows and then it will be time for fields.
I'd love to get this completed before July is done... here's hoping.  :Very Happy:

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## Ilanthar

Oh, I missed that! Excellent! Your Haerlech is becoming a huge mappy goodness  :Smile: .

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## J.Edward

Thanks Ilanthar. I had not seen your comment so I apologize for so late a response.
Sadly Haerlech has taken a back seat to other work for a while.
Hopefully I can get back to it soon.
This probably should have been in the yearly challenge as it looks like it's going to take that long. :Surprised:

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## Ilanthar

No problem at all  :Smile:  (as long as you don't give up this wonder)!
I'm currently more active cause I'm in holidays and not yet gone on a beach yet  :Wink: .

----------


## J.Edward

Ah, the beach. sigh...I haven't been to the beach in years.
Actually, I'm not sure if I've taken a decent holiday in years either.  :Confused: 

There are times where I almost want to stop working on this map, but I won't.  :Very Happy: 
It's just going to take a good while to get it completed.

----------


## Bogie

I can't believe I have not been following this map,  Great detail, Great layout, Great color scheme.  I will so be using this in my games.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Bogie.  :Smile: 
Which map? I have kind of pulled in several maps here. 
Are you referring to the city map or the newer region map?

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## J.Edward

It's been a long while since I've been able to get much done on this.
I was able to do some this week so here's an update.
I think the trees are finally done. Now it's on to the fields.


I still need to fix some thing that people have mentioned previously.
Yay - for resurrecting the thread, Boo - for so much more work to do.

----------


## J.Edward

Here's a sample of some fields and ground effects.
Not sure if I like them.... or if I like them, but just not in this map.
Let me know if you have an opinion or other thoughts on these.

----------


## arsheesh

Holy cow man!

----------


## joaodafi

Dat map!!
Dat's details!!
Dat's amazing!!

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## Barek333

The sea..the trees..the port!!! In that order,are a thing of beauty. This will be the one of the best city maps here..already is.

The fields and ground effects are nice but as you say something is of with them for this map. I think it is the rest of map gives more of a hand drawn feel while they seem a bit too artificial..but that could well be only if you zoom in. With that being said the field that is SW from the circular building seems to me to fit with the map the best.

Anyway amazing, you really make amazing maps.

Cheers,
Barek

----------


## - Max -

I kinda agree with Barek. fields look good to me but zoomed in but not sure how they will render zoomed out. Otherwise, a wonderful job!

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## snodsy

Hey JEdward; Nice to see this on again. Are all the houses going to be the red brick color? seem a little monotone?  Like the textural effect of the different fields, but not sure of the the randomness of them. The the dividing tree. Looking forward to seeing more.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Arsheesh and joaodafi.  :Smile: 
Thanks also Barek and Max - I think you're hitting on the problem there.



> I think it is the rest of map gives more of a hand drawn feel while they seem a bit too artificial..but that could well be only if you zoom in. 
> With that being said the field that is SW from the circular building seems to me to fit with the map the best.


I was trying to do something that would speed up this process but it does break with the style of the rest of the map.  :Confused:  Alas. Sigh.
I guess I will have to do them as originally planned. That's going to take longer but it should look more appropriate.
I'll have to archive this field style though for some other maps.
Thanks for the input. You reinforced what I think I already knew.  :Smile: 

Snodsy - thank you sir. Regarding roof color, that discussion happened back on page 4 I think. 
I originally had much more varied roof colors and moved to terracotta.

----------


## Ilanthar

Greeaaat  :Smile: ! So glad you keep working on this wonderful map.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Ilanthar.  :Smile:  I couldn't let this one go. It's too big now. 
I've started redoing the fields and scrubby hill stuff.
Doing this in a more hand drawn way takes a lot longer but this is looking better I think.
The fields will be a little tougher as brush size is going to be an issue for getting any sort of defined field look.
But we'll see how it goes.
I have some time so I'm going to do as much as I can over the weekend.
I know I won't finish but at least I should get a big portion done.
That much closer to labels and text... a lot of text.

----------


## snodsy

WOW, that's outstanding, beautiful job. looking forward to seeing the next installment Love the trees.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Snodsy.  :Smile: 
More work. I've never spent so long on just ground cover and ground effects.
But I am satisfied with how the hand drawn stuff is coming out.
Loads still to do. Have to do all the fields still.
And realized I forgot to draw in some buildings... plus more trees. NO. sigh...
Here's an update. Most work is in the top region.

----------


## snodsy

I love the texture this ground cover give you. You have the beautiful shading of the landforms, the outlined forests/cliffs/houses, then this texture, which is a new element. 

What I'm having a little trouble wrapping my little brain around is - what is this texture representing? 

Your trees have, lets say a 60-10 foot spread. So a small typically tree on your drawing has a approx. 10' crown. These textures are then about 1- 2 foot some 6 inches maybe smaller -- so are these to read as ground cover or small shrubs, perennials, grasses not sure?  

So I like them, just not sure how to read them are they all the same?  Just a thought for my little brain.

----------


## ChickPea

This is simply stunning work. It gets better every time I look at it.

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## J.Edward

Thank you ChickPea.  :Smile: 
Snodsy - Thanks. What you're asking about represents several types of ground cover and small shrubbery. Mostly lower to the ground sort of stuff.
To do the fields and other ground plants I am down to working with 1-2 pixel size so I have constraints on how much detail I can pack in there.
I looked back at them after reading your post and think that I could try to get some color variety in there. But... time and pixel size... will tell.
So I did some more on field stuff. I'll have some more styles of fields before I'm done but this is the general look they will have.

----------


## J.Edward

A bit more done. It's taking far longer than I'd anticipated to do these fields.
Hoping I can finish fields this weekend but it's not looking likely.
But... I like how they are turning out so that's something.

----------


## Abu Lafia

Worth the effort John, the most spectacular fields i've seen so far on a map!  :Smile:  Great to see you picking Haerlech up again.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Abu.  :Smile: 
More fields. I think I'm done with the northern fields.
So on to the southern fields.  :Smile:

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## Abu Lafia

You should get a "Master of Crops" badge or something after this!  :Very Happy:  The variety of different fields is really amazing.  But, when you're going for such an amount of detail with the fields, what's the plan for the city's buildings regarding this?  :Wink:

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## joaodafi

I was almost 30 minutes looking at this map, my brain can't absorb that much details.
Beautiful work J.Edward, really beautiful.

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## J.Edward

> You should get a "Master of Crops" badge or something after this!  The variety of different fields is really amazing.  But, when you're going for such an amount of detail with the fields, what's the plan for the city's buildings regarding this?


Oh Abu, are you making the evil suggestion that I do a whole bunch of roof detail to match the fields?  :Question:   :Confused:   :Frown: 
Because I thought about that.... I've tried it a few times and it never looks good. But it still seems like I should.
Of course that would take - forever. My hands would wither and fall off. The horror.

Master of Crops.  :Smile:  I like that. So long as they don't misspell it. I would hate to be the Master of Craps.  :Razz: 

Thanks Joaodafi.  :Smile:  When it's done there will be even more.
I never imagined this thing would become what it is now, what it's going to be.

----------


## Abu Lafia

Yeah sorry, it seems like an evil suggestion indeed, was just thinking about the fantstic roofs you made on other of your town/city maps. I'm always a bit too fast with suggesting things, without thinking about the consequences... In the end, the story of your astonishing cartography career should not be titled: "From Bourmout to burnout" :Smile:  
Take care, 
AL

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## Ilanthar

> *By J. Edward*
> Oh Abu, are you making the evil suggestion that I do a whole bunch of roof detail to match the fields?
> Because I thought about that.... I've tried it a few times and it never looks good. But it still seems like I should.
> Of course that would take - forever. My hands would wither and fall off. The horror.


A similar level of details on the roofs would be awesome, but I fully understand it would take a lot of time of effort! You've done so much already.
As incredible as it is, you keep turning this map in a true work of art!

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## J.Edward

Bourmout to burnout - that's good.  :Very Happy: 
Well, I can't do the level of detail like those maps. I just don't have the pixels.
I am trying some stuff today but it required me to enlarge the map which is not ideal.
I want to get some sort of detail in there but before enlarging I was down to a 1 pixel brush and that still looked wrong.
We'll see what I can work out. If I hadn't built a new computer recently this wouldn't even be possible.

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## J.Edward

Oh dear god, this was a bad decision. So many f#%king roofs.
Last night and all of today and only a third of the roofs are done.  :Confused: 

I resized/enlarged the entire map, which pushed it over 1 GB file size, but I then had enough pixel res to do something more with the roofs.
Even the simple roof style I'm doing is taking forever.... and those fields aren't going to paint themselves.
Well, now I am going to be saying 'hopefully I finish this while it's still 2015' but I can't say that with certainty.
This process feels like masochistic torture. What's wrong with me? Why am I doing this to myself?
I asked myself that about an hour ago. Well, it's already too late to stop.
Here's a crop of the northern area with new roofs. This will likely lead to me having to edit the fields some.  :Mad: 


woops, missed a few roofs in there.  :Very Happy:  Back to it.

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## ChickPea

Oh no! Sorry you're having such a hard time. I get that same masochistic feeling sometimes, when you starting questioning why you're even doing this.

If it's any consolation at all, it looks utterly _fantastic!_

One day you'll look back and be happy you put in the effort. 'Course, that might be five years down the line, but hey, it'll be worth it!  :Wink:   :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

> One day you'll look back and be happy you put in the effort. 'Course, that might be five years down the line, but hey, it'll be worth it!


It might just be at that.  :Very Happy: 
I hope so. You are most likely right.
Just feels ridiculous, crazy and masochistic atm. This too will pass.  :Wink:

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## pasis

The new fields are really spot on and the houses are coming on just great as well. I love all the small details in this, like the very small paths leading to the fields and riversides. They are almost invisible until you look really close. It makes me think this is something real and there are actually people living there.

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## snodsy

This is one of the most beautiful and detailed maps I've seen, hang in there, this looks fabulous and is an envy of all here. You drive us to do better!

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## soggymuse

Dude. That's not a map, it's a freaking work of art. Please tell me that's not all hand-drawn/painted because _ouch_. It's glorious! I hope you do get it finished, though I can understand why you might be getting frustrated/bored with the detail work!

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## J.Edward

So I have to hand it to Abu - sometimes you need a little push to do what must be done.
Thanks Abu and Ilanthar for suggesting the roof detail. It needed to be done.
It would have looked incongruous to have all the other detail and the plain roofs.  :Very Happy: 

Thanks Pasis.  :Smile:  I love doing those little paths. They're one of my favorite parts, often left out of maps.
Hopefully when this is all done it will engage people and make them want to explore.

Thank you snodsy.  :Smile:  It can be tough sticking with something this big and time consuming.
It makes me glad that people are enjoying it and getting something out of it.

soggymuse - ouch indeed. Yes, it is all hand drawn. And yes, ouch is correct.  :Very Happy: 
My hands usually hurt after working on this. I hold the pen too tight most times and I do a lot of short tight hand motions when I draw so it tends to create a lot of hand tension and soreness.
But I know no other way. I was never a 'loose' drawer [as in one who draws... not a drawer of a dresser... haha]. Tight drawing is great for technical illustration and architecture.
It just isn't kind to your hands over time.

So I finally finished the roof detail. Yesterday was a 14 hour marathon of tiny little lines. Thousands of tiny little lines. UGH. But I would rather get tedious stuff over with as fast as possible.
I'm back to doing fields and ground cover. Once all that is done I will see if anything else needs touched up. Then it will be on to labeling and other fun details.
I'm hoping to incorporate the region map in here somehow. Layout will have to wait till the rest is done.
Here's a larger update


edit - thought I should add, the region map was back on page 14. http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...=29936&page=14

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## boldloop

Incredible.  Just wondering, is the harbor in the northwest made of concrete?

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## J.Edward

> Incredible.  Just wondering, is the harbor in the northwest made of concrete?


Thanks boldloop.  :Smile: 
No, it would be stone. Are you going to say that it should have hand drawn stone to show this?  :Surprised:   :Question:   :Confused:

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## arsheesh

This project, to my mind, epitomizes what an entry in the Annual Cartographers Challenge should strive for.  A pity this isn't in the running.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Abu Lafia

> Thanks boldloop. 
> No, it would be stone. Are you going to say that it should have hand drawn stone to show this?


OMG, stop it pleeease! XD

Edit: I totally agree with arsheesh on the annual challenge matter. Good thing is, it is and stays a masterpiece of town-mapping.

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## boldloop

> Thanks boldloop. 
> No, it would be stone. Are you going to say that it should have hand drawn stone to show this?


Yep  :Wink:  sorry. Although what do i know with my 2 posts?  Do what you think is right.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Arsheesh. The sad thing is that this began as a monthly challenge... back in, what... February? Man. This has drug on a bit, hasn't it.
I wish it could be in there but, alas, no chance. That is one of the reasons I didn't put anything in there. I still had too much to finish.
I have 2 other monthly challenge maps still hanging out there somewhere.  :Razz: 

You tell him Abu!  :Razz:  [I kid, I kid]

Well, boldloop, it won't be tiny pavers, that's for sure. It will get some sort of treatment though.
It's good that people point this stuff out. I sit looking at this at 100% and often don't see the parts I'm not working on.

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## J.Edward

Well, this will be the last update for a while. Must get back to work and stuff.
Tried hard to get the fields done but there were just too many.
Tried some new stuff. Most I like. Some I might change.
But it's coming along. Cheers and thanks for the input.  :Smile:

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## Chick

I think this one is going to qualify for the Decade Challenge  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

Thanks Chick.  :Smile:  It feels like that some days.  :Wink: 
Hopefully it won't take more than... oh say... five years tops.  :Razz:

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## Bogie

Great job on this, the fields are amazing!

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## J.Edward

Thanks Bogie.  :Smile:  I'm trying all kinds of stuff.
Trying to break new ground, as it were.  :Wink:

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## soggymuse

> soggymuse - ouch indeed. Yes, it is all hand drawn. And yes, ouch is correct. 
> My hands usually hurt after working on this. I hold the pen too tight  most times and I do a lot of short tight hand motions when I draw so it  tends to create a lot of hand tension and soreness.
> But I know no other way. I was never a 'loose' drawer [as in one who  draws... not a drawer of a dresser... haha]. Tight drawing is great for  technical illustration and architecture.
> It just isn't kind to your hands over time.


I can believe it! I do most of my lineart in Paint Tool SAI by hand but never something this ambitious. The closest I've gotten is my mesa caves, and I had to take a break from that because my hands were hurting so bad. I'm not surprised you think this will take five years but the work and detailing is really paying off. (I'm a "tense" drawer, too. xD I wear the nibs down on my graphics pen pretty fast because of it but I've never quite managed to figure out how to loosen up. Shame they don't make fatter pens for drawing, I think that would make our lives a bit easier than the standard sized graphics pens.)



> No, it would be stone. Are you going to say that it should have hand drawn stone to show this?


Afraid so. At present, it doesn't look like natural material. The boats look modern, though, so you could just leave the harbour as a concrete structure that was built (or rebuilt after some other kind of disaster) later in the town's lifespan? If it has to be stone, then might I suggest large blocks so you don't need too much extra drawing/painting?  :Wink: 

I love all the details. This is truly the kind of map I'd love to have printed up on the wall and explore every inch. You can't see it all all at once, so there's always something new to look at (even without the updates). It's stunning.

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## ChickPea

On the harbour area, perhaps the problem is that it looks very pristine and relatively uniform in colour? Would adding some good old-fashioned dirt help break it up a little, without involving a huge amount of work? Or maybe adding some items like ropes or barrels or something along those lines? Just a thought.

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## J.Edward

That area of the harbor and some other areas just haven't gotten the full treatment yet.
They will before it's all done. Maybe this weekend I'll be able to get back to it and do some more bits there.  :Smile:

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## Warlin

An incredible level of detail and meticulousness bordering on harassment. Hold as long on a project deserves admiration and respect. Bravo !

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## J.Edward

Merci Warlin.  :Smile: 
Je vous en suis reconnaissant.

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## J.Edward

I did a bit to the docks as per suggestions.
Also did some of those pavers throughout the cities roads.
Now back to doing fields.  :Smile: 


edit - already see a spot I need to fix.

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## boldloop

Holy crap thats a LOT of detail  :Surprised:  I thought you would just draw littleish blocks for the harbor, not millions of tiny circles. wow.

Something else i noticed: the circular building. In the middle, there is nothing.  It would be cool if there was a small fountain or park in the middle.

And yes, it is my goal to torture you and your hand  :Cool:

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## J.Edward

> Holy crap thats a LOT of detail  I thought you would just draw littleish blocks for the harbor, not millions of tiny circles. wow.
> 
> Something else i noticed: the circular building. In the middle, there is nothing.  It would be cool if there was a small fountain or park in the middle.
> 
> And yes, it is my goal to torture you and your hand


There will be more stuff.... as time allows.  :Smile:  And thanks for the input.
The docks definitely were forgotten about.
I added more pavers around the city. I'll be finishing fields and then moving on to some other details.
I have to be careful what I add - if I add too many little details 'here' then I will have to add them 'there'.... and I don't want this to really take five years.  :Wink:

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## Larb

Pretty fantastic work so far, J'Edward. I've not been around as much lately because work is pretty intense at the moment but I'm still watching things! Look forward to the finished product - although I suspect to many it looks finished already. =P

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## J.Edward

Thanks Larb. 
I hope your getting some time to do maps though.  :Very Happy:

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## soggymuse

Holy cobblestones, Batman! They look spectacular. The detailing really pays off. I think we should all send you some bandages for your hand, though!

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## Narolas

Jeez, the amount of fine detail is astonishing.

Wondering, how big is your original image ? I'm fairly limited by my PC on Photoshop, if I go above a certain size it's slow and freezes (i'm considering an upgrade because of this).

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## Ilgoth

So much effort put in with your map. Always excited to see new posts on this thread!

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## J.Edward

Thanks soggymuse, Narolas and Ilgoth.  :Smile:  
Narolas - it used to be 5200x5845. I enlarged it at a point so I could do the roof detail.
It's now 7270x8140. I had the same problem and did build a new computer as it was becoming a problem.
The file size is over 1GB at the moment which would have been difficult for my old computer to handle.

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## AzurePlanet

WOW!  :Surprised: 
I was just losing this true masterpiece!
Compliments, bravissimo!

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## J.Edward

Thank you Azure.  :Very Happy:

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## tainotim

This is turning out so great J. (Why is this not your annual challenge piece?) I'm avoiding looking at it too much so I can explore it in all its glory when finished. Such a immersive map. There is a story somewhere for each of those back-alleys and streets I'm sure  :Smile: 

Small idea while I'm writing. I would love to see more river-crossings and smaller paths in the fields. People have a tendency to try to take the shortest route, and would be awesome to see that expressed somehow in this map  :Wink: 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## J.Edward

This couldn't be in the annual challenge because it started life as a monthly challenge back in February, I think.  :Very Happy: 
I wish it could. Who knew it would take so long to do.

I'll look at those suggestions. I can definitely think of a few places for crossings.
I did do some small trails and paths that showed that some. Maybe not enough though.

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## Teferi

Damn, I love your City!
This is just damn impressive, from my perspective! I adore the cleanliness you achieved, the natural look to the entire layout! One thing I struggled with - doing it basically for the first time - was to have buildings look somehow the same from an artstyle. You did great here, I adore your work  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

Thanks Teferi.  :Smile: 
I know you can appreciate doing a large city map, having seen your massive first post.
So I really appreciate it.  :Wink:

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## Hendrid

Really excellent work, all the hard work really pays off

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## J.Edward

> Really excellent work, all the hard work really pays off


Thanks Hendrid.  :Smile:  Hopefully I'll be able to get back to this before too long and get it completed.

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## J.Edward

Finally able to get back to some more Haerlech.
Not nearly as much done as I would have liked but it's getting there.
Maybe I can finish it befroe 2016...? Not likely, alas.

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## whipstache

> Finally able to get back to some more Haerlech.
> Not nearly as much done as I would have liked but it's getting there.
> Maybe I can finish it befroe 2016...? Not likely, alas.


This is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. Like, I'm floored right now. Fantastic work.

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## J.Edward

Thanks whipstache.  :Smile: 
This has been the longest I've worked on a single map, so every comment and encouragement is much appreciated.

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## Ilanthar

Incredible work. This is definitely the one I like the most among your amazing maps.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Ilanthar.  :Very Happy: 
It obviously has a special place for me as it's the longest running map I've done yet.
There are things I wish I could change or improve but won't since it would take far too long to do now.
That said, I'm still proud of things I was able to achieve in this so far.

Here's the update. Almost done with the land, then on to some layout and labeling work.
That will still be a lot of work though.
But other than a few fields I think most of it is close to complete.

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## Larb

Is that a graveyard with mausoleums and stuff in the bottom right?

This is the sort of size and detail I want to do with Argot and while the result of your map is spectacular, it's also such a scary amount of work. =P

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## J.Edward

Yeah, there are 2 graveyards - the old site across the river that has been 'affected' by the star fall and it's strange attributes and the newer one at lower right.
I had wanted to do this from early on but wasn't sure how I was going to go about it.
I realized at this size/scale that small grave stones wouldn't be very visible. Then I thought, with the age and population of the city that there would lots of dead so they would have to use some other burial method.
So mausoleums and crypts. Some of those go underground. Some go way down to catacombs and other lower regions.
I thought maybe that there might be some connections to the sewers and some other secret underground levels.
I have some plans for further maps in and around Haerlech.

I totally understand that sentiment. It is daunting. I had to take it in chunks. 
It can be very overwhelming when you think about it all ahead of you.
And it certainly takes a long time but it's worth it.
There were many times where I sort of wanted to just stop. And I did a few times too.
I didn't plan out all of this and I think it might have been easier and less time consuming if I had planned it better.

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## J.Edward

No map that I've done yet has given me more stress/problems than this map.
I so want to finish this thing, but every layout for the info just does not seem to work, or in a way that I like.  :Confused: 
I am trying to work on that today but it isn't going very well. I guess I'll just have to try again.
I wanted to have the city separated into sections and get into naming some of the prominent buildings/locations..
but I didn't want to get the map so filled with info that it lost all detail. So I was trying some popout sections.
But they're not really working.

This is a testament to planning - or rather not planning. 
A testament to why you should plan things out well before starting something like this, I guess.
None of this was well planned, sadly. I think that's why it has been so difficult.
Might have something later today or tomorrow.

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## ChickPea

Your one year anniversary is coming up in little over a week! So ... no pressure.  :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

> Your one year anniversary is coming up in little over a week! So ... no pressure.


Well crumbs... there is no way I can do that in time. Man, that sucks. 
Maybe if I work some 18 hour days I can get it done in time  :Question: 

After checking back a bit...
Well, I missed it by 2 days. I originally started Haerlech on the 25th of Feb, 2015. Phew, now the pressures off.  :Very Happy: 

Edit - ya know, that means that this map would never be able to be in a best of for a year, as it stretches over 2 year periods.

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## ChickPea

Well, I admire your dedication to this map, and the effort you've put in really does show. And +1 on planning your map in advance. This is an important point. I've fallen into the trap of winging it a few times, and it doesn't usually end well.

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## Falconius

This is truly fantastic, well worth the dedication put into it.

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## Greg

EVen though I've only been here a short while, I literally have no clue how I managed to miss this project of this magnitude. It looks fantastic already, and I look forwards to seeing more of it!  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

> Well, I admire your dedication to this map, and the effort you've put in really does show. And +1 on planning your map in advance. This is an important point. I've fallen into the trap of winging it a few times, and it doesn't usually end well.


Yep, it makes a big difference. It's more fun to just start working but it does take longer.



> This is truly fantastic, well worth the dedication put into it.


Thanks Falconius  :Smile: 

I am still working on this one. It's just at a slow pace.
I'm doing the border work at the moment, then all the labeling.
I might do some additional maps with the city sections and more in depth labeling, once the main map is done.
Always an issue of what time will permit.

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## J.Edward

> EVen though I've only been here a short while, I literally have no clue how I managed to miss this project of this magnitude. It looks fantastic already, and I look forwards to seeing more of it!


Hah, I got ninja'd and I didn't even notice that.
Sorry about that GLS. I just saw your comment.
Thanks so much. Yes, this is a long one. I'll be happy and sad to be done with it.
It's been running off and on for over a year now.  :Smile:

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## Josiah VE

Wow... That is just wow. :O Stunning, magnificent, breathtaking and anything else I can throw at it.  :Very Happy:  

Must be one of my all time favorite city maps.

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## Lingon

Wow, I just noticed this one, can't believe I've missed it! It's glorious. The city layout, the color scheme, the countryside, I love it! Your style remins me of Ghibli movies, which is awesome  :Smile:  It's a little hard to say where the lightsource is meant to be, and I think it is because you only have one two shades on the roof, a lit and a shadowed side. If you'd further (slightly) darken the sides facing directly away from the light, it'd make it easier to identify the light direction, as well as add a little more contrast to the city part. A reaction I slowly arrived at after staring at the map in wonder for a while  :Wink:

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## SrgDark

Love this map man. Amazing stuff, real inspiring to see it grow and flourish.

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## J.Edward

> Wow... That is just wow. :O Stunning, magnificent, breathtaking and anything else I can throw at it.  
> 
> Must be one of my all time favorite city maps.


Thanks so much Josiah  :Smile:  I'm slowly working at completing this.



> Wow, I just noticed this one, can't believe I've missed it! It's glorious. The city layout, the color scheme, the countryside, I love it! Your style remins me of Ghibli movies, which is awesome  It's a little hard to say where the lightsource is meant to be, and I think it is because you only have one two shades on the roof, a lit and a shadowed side. If you'd further (slightly) darken the sides facing directly away from the light, it'd make it easier to identify the light direction, as well as add a little more contrast to the city part. A reaction I slowly arrived at after staring at the map in wonder for a while


Thanks Lingon  :Smile:  That is an awesome compliment. I love the backgrounds in Ghibli productions  :Very Happy: 
I'll have to look back at the light and shadow. It's been a while since I did that work. 
Yeah, there's only 1 shade for shadow and 1 for light. 
In smaller pieces I have used differing tones for both light and shadow, but in one this large I did simplify a bit.



> Love this map man. Amazing stuff, real inspiring to see it grow and flourish.


Thanks SrgDark  :Smile:

----------


## Eld

Although the others gave you all the praise you deserve for this gracious work, I want to add my own.  :Wink: 
This map is inspiring and wonderful, especially the detailed countryside as well as the seaside add much to the vividness. To see the several stages of the work was instructive and increases my awe for your hard work. Though I love that style, I won't use it for my own projects as I'm sure that I lack the skills needed for it. Can't wait for the labelling.  :Smile: 

As for your doubts about the terracotta style of the roofs: I think they're perfectly right for the average houses. Maybe some of the special buildings would look great with some kind of bronze roofing. It'd give them the highlighting they deserve.

I'm also a great fan of your ship depictions. Never thought that they could be drawn in that perspective looking so well.  :Smile:

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## Sharpsmile

Excellent work JE.  I really admire your dedication, also I love the line work on the hillsides, so good!  I am not sure if it came up, but did you pen tool all of the buildings, or were they free hand, or a combo of both?

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## Tom

I thought I had already commented, but I didn't!! my bad..  :Smile: 
This map goes beyond awesome! the effort you put into it is great, is so full of tiny details!
The roofs, the ships, the fields.. I love the bright colors, and the way you painted the vegetation is incredible!! I have never drawn a top-down map like this, but you inspired me to do!
I don't know what else to say, except a big BRAVO!  :Very Happy:

----------


## J.Edward

> Although the others gave you all the praise you deserve for this gracious work, I want to add my own. 
> This map is inspiring and wonderful, especially the detailed countryside as well as the seaside add much to the vividness. To see the several stages of the work was instructive and increases my awe for your hard work. Though I love that style, I won't use it for my own projects as I'm sure that I lack the skills needed for it. Can't wait for the labelling. 
> 
> As for your doubts about the terracotta style of the roofs: I think they're perfectly right for the average houses. Maybe some of the special buildings would look great with some kind of bronze roofing. It'd give them the highlighting they deserve.
> 
> I'm also a great fan of your ship depictions. Never thought that they could be drawn in that perspective looking so well.


Thanks Eld  :Very Happy:  I'm not sure if I would edit any of the map at this point, but it's possible. Lingon made some suggestions too. I do like the idea of some of the special buildings changing some, but I wouldn't be thrilled about more work. We'll see.  :Wink:  I appreciate that about the ships. They took more work than I thought they would.
I am still working on the overall layout for doing the labeling. I've done about 7 or 8 different layouts and I'm not thrilled with any of them, which is why I haven't posted that yet.
Once I have that layout determined I'll start labeling and hopefully have an update to post.



> Excellent work JE.  I really admire your dedication, also I love the line work on the hillsides, so good!  I am not sure if it came up, but did you pen tool all of the buildings, or were they free hand, or a combo of both?


Thanks Sharpie  :Smile:  Glad you're back.
All the buildings are hand drawn. I do that because I can do it probably faster than I can work the pen tool, as well as for the more rough and organic shapes I can produce.
Not to mention that I always do curved roads and such which seems easier for me to just hand draw them. It still takes a lot of time though.
I thought about trying to make some premade elements to use. I'm just not good with using elements. Somehow they're never what I need, even when I make them myself.



> I thought I had already commented, but I didn't!! my bad.. 
> This map goes beyond awesome! the effort you put into it is great, is so full of tiny details!
> The roofs, the ships, the fields.. I love the bright colors, and the way you painted the vegetation is incredible!! I have never drawn a top-down map like this, but you inspired me to do!
> I don't know what else to say, except a big BRAVO!


Thanks a lot Tom. This map represents the most work I've ever put into any single map. Probably any single piece of work period.
Always nice to hear that it inspires. I'll have to watch out for your top down map. Should be good.  :Smile: 

As I said to Eld, I am trying to nail down the overall layout so I can move on to the labeling.
It's frustrating to not be able to get that set. I think it has to do with how much I have invested in this map.
Some layouts would have been ok were it on another less detailed map.
But just know that I am actively working on this. Hopefully there will be an update soon.  :Wink:

----------


## J.Edward

I'm excited - it looks like I am a few hours away from completing this tired old beast!!!  :Very Happy: 
All I have left to do is the place names. You have no idea how much I want this map done.
I'm desperately trying to get it done today.
Obviously I'll post when it's done.  :Smile:

----------


## - Max -

Sounds like great news  :Smile:

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## Josiah VE

Yay!!! Can't wait to see it! "87 years in the making and still not finished!"  :Wink: 

Hey Max, I see you have exactly 4,000 posts! Congrats  :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

Nice catch Josaih  :Smile: 
Well... darn. I can not find my list of location names.  :Confused: 
This is going to take longer than I thought. Hopefully not longer than tonight though.

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## Chashio

Good luck on the home stretch.  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

I'm on that last stretch. I couldn't find my list of names, so I've been having to come up with names all over again.  :Confused: 
Then I had to name all the roads and alleys - which there are a lot.
Maybe if I'm lucky I can muddle through and complete it today -but just saying that means it probably won't happen.  :Surprised: 
Any ways.. here's something... me scribbling down names for things. Yes, this is how I do it.  :Very Happy: 


Oh, I tried to take Lingon's advice and add darker shadows - I think that was the advice.
I didn't get to doing any more unique roofs. Maybe in another life, or another iteration of this map.

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## Chashio

Ouch. But at least you enjoy naming things, eh?
That is a very neat way of laying them out. I may adopt that.

The shading is wonderful, by the way. Truly an impressive piece.  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

It has proved reasonably effective so far.
I used to number every location - then write all the names down in a notebook.
And then... lose the notebook  :Razz: 
This will definitely mitigate that problem.
I adopted this a little while after the challenge, and after having written down all the names.
I'm good at bad timing.

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## Clercon

Fantastic! I love all the details.

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## Josiah VE

Those details are fabulous. The labeling really adds to it, and that is a lot of labeling.... I love it!

You know what would suck even more, if you found your notebook right after you finished the new labeling.  :Wink:   :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

> Fantastic! I love all the details.


Thanks Clercon  :Smile: 



> Those details are fabulous. The labeling really adds to it, and that is a lot of labeling.... I love it!
> 
> You know what would suck even more, if you found your notebook right after you finished the new labeling.


Thanks Josiah.  :Smile:  It is indeed a lot of labels. I've been at it for hours now and I'm still not done.
Haha, yes, that would totally happen to me. Probably will.  :Wink: 

So here's a crop of the labeling so far.
This is going to be difficult to post the final image, as the file size is so big.
Well, I'll deal with that when I get there, I guess.
This just shows what all I've been doing for this weekend.
I've changed the labels from straight horizontal to angled in relation to the buildings they indicate.
Once all the labeling is done, I have to write out the little back story. 


By the way - I had to save this at quality 8 just to get it small enough to post, which I'm not thrilled about.  :Confused:

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## J.Edward

I'm trying a new way to do my roads.
I wanted to make it distinguishable that one road name ends and another begins.
Not sure whether I love it or hate it. I've been looking at this map too long.
The roads are going to make this take another day or so sadly.
But hey, it's pretty close.

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## Falconius

Yeah, I like that road concept.  I liked it when I saw it sketched in further up too.

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## ChickPea

I'm excited to see this finished, because every time I look at it, I'm struck anew by how utterly amazing a piece of art this is!! 

That's a big fat oopsie with the notebook! I think Josiah's nailed it. As soon as you finish the map, you'll find the damn thing (I'm absolutely not speaking from experience here!!)  :Very Happy:

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## Josiah VE

> I'm excited to see this finished, because every time I look at it, I'm struck anew by how utterly amazing a piece of art this is!!


I totally agree, I was just thinking the same thing. I'm in awe every time I see it. I can't stop staring at it!

I couldn't help but noticing  :Very Happy:  .. at Crab Launch, where do the boats come from? Is there a boathouse somewhere near or do they have to carry the boats all the way through town?  :Question:

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## Lingon

Wait what! You're doing your anniversary map, landmasses for everybody, AND working on this one? Insanity!  :Very Happy:  The labelling looks great though I find that font a bit hard to read, because of the archaic shapes of some of the letters. Really like the road style.

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## Josiah VE

> The labelling looks great though I find that font a bit hard to read, because of the archaic shapes of some of the letters.


Oh yes, I forgot to mention that in my post.

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## J.Edward

> Yeah, I like that road concept.  I liked it when I saw it sketched in further up too.


Cool. That helps me decide. I was on the fence with that.  :Smile: 



> I'm excited to see this finished, because every time I look at it, I'm struck anew by how utterly amazing a piece of art this is!! 
> 
> That's a big fat oopsie with the notebook! I think Josiah's nailed it. As soon as you finish the map, you'll find the damn thing (I'm absolutely not speaking from experience here!!)


Yeah, it probably will happen too. I had said before - I'm good at bad timing.  :Very Happy: 



> I totally agree, I was just thinking the same thing. I'm in awe every time I see it. I can't stop staring at it!
> 
> I couldn't help but noticing  .. at Crab Launch, where do the boats come from? Is there a boathouse somewhere near or do they have to carry the boats all the way through town?


Ah, you all keep me on my toes... there should be a boat house... but there isn't. 
Maybe they line them up along the the south port road area... like flipped upside down or something.
I just can't think of everything.  :Razz: 



> Wait what! You're doing your anniversary map, landmasses for everybody, AND working on this one? Insanity!  The labelling looks great though I find that font a bit hard to read, because of the archaic shapes of some of the letters. Really like the road style.


Haha, yes. As well as all my freelance work too.  :Very Happy:  I got lots of things going on all the time.  :Wink: 
I was concerned about that - but now there are so many labels that it just isn't going to change.



> Oh yes, I forgot to mention that in my post.


See above... too many to change it now.

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## Josiah VE

> See above... too many to change it now.


I thought you could just select all the font layers and change all the font like that.. But I guess you'd probably have to reposition and stuff. No matter, it still looks amazing.  :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

> I thought you could just select all the font layers and change all the font like that.. But I guess you'd probably have to reposition and stuff. No matter, it still looks amazing.


The whole map size is 10624x15300. There are lots of labels [not sure exactly] and they're in numerous sub-folders.
The map can crawl a bit depending on what I'm doing at the time.
But aside from the effort to make any such change, is the fact - all the positions will change, which would mean going back and repostioning everything.
I'm just not prepared to do that. Also, the font I used relates to the Map title piece, which you haven't seen yet, but is done and can't be changed.
Oh, I thought I should add - much of this text is at 1.5 to 2.5 pt size, to fit on this map.

There will always be issues with type. 
I ran through a number of fonts before deciding on this one, Chaucer.
There were issues of one sort or another with each, so it was a balance in choosing which one to go with.
The only character I saw that was problematic is the 'H'. Are there other characters that are difficult to understand?

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## Galendae

Tremendous!  I love it!  I maybe wrong, but does the city need more Market Areas and maybe more Common areas?  People(buildings)look packed in, but maybe that is the look you are going for?  Far be it for me to complain, as the detail is excellent.

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## J.Edward

> Tremendous!  I love it!  I maybe wrong, but does the city need more Market Areas and maybe more Common areas?  People(buildings)look packed in, but maybe that is the look you are going for?  Far be it for me to complain, as the detail is excellent.


Thanks Galendae  :Very Happy: 
It is really cramped. It was somewhat intentional, somewhat a side effect of not nearly enough planning for this size city.  :Wink: 

I do love the advice and suggestions that are being, and have been, offered.
Everyone who makes those suggestions works toward making me a better map maker, so I appreciate it.
Sometimes you have to go with what you have and complete it though.
This map has been a journey. I have learned a lot while working on it.
But I want to bring it to completion and start on new journeys.
If I let myself, I could keep trying to perfect little things here and there and it would stretch on for years.

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## Josiah VE

First of all.... that is a giant image!!  :Wink: 

I totally agree with all you said, I would do the same as you. There's no way I'd change it once I've gotten that far.

Yeah, you're right, it's mostly the H, it just takes a second to read. It's fine.  :Very Happy: 

Why are the roofs in The Hallows and Dolmen Hill white? Any reason?

I looked back at the first WIP and somehow even that looks good in and of itself.. you're amazing.  :Very Happy: 

I feel like screaming this is so awesome. How am I going to tear myself away from this right now and do school??  :Wink: 

You should write a book about this city..

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## J.Edward

> First of all.... that is a giant image!! 
> 
> I totally agree with all you said, I would do the same as you. There's no way I'd change it once I've gotten that far.
> 
> Yeah, you're right, it's mostly the H, it just takes a second to read. It's fine. 
> 
> Why are the roofs in The Hallows and Dolmen Hill white? Any reason?
> 
> I looked back at the first WIP and somehow even that looks good in and of itself.. you're amazing. 
> ...


The Hallows and Dolmen Hill are large cemeteries - so what you're looking down at are stone mausoleums and grave monuments.
I wanted to make a rules-neutral game product out of this stuff.
I'm so out of date on game rules/game mechanics that I couldn't write a true campaign module without loads of assistance.
So it would be more of a campaign/adventure backstory sandbox sort of thing with maps and illustrations and all.
I have some work started on surrounding areas and towns and some backstory as well as more specifics on locations within Haerlech.
I need to get a bit more info on what all I need to do to produce a product for DTRPG and then I will probably do that.
Oh, also need to set up my website in relation to selling on DTRPG. So much to do - so little time in which to do it.  :Very Happy:

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## Josiah VE

Ah, okay. I thought they might be cemeteries. That makes sense.

I don't do RPG's or anything, but this map would make me want to.  :Very Happy:  Or I would buy the map simply for maps sake (like I did with the Lands of Fire and Ice by Jon Roberts)

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## Lingon

Well, that's understandable about the labels of course, would be a massive effort to redo it all! It's not actually that they are difficult to understand, when I think about it, it's more that the font combines (what modern eyes perceive as) upper and lower case letters that makes for a not-totally-smooth reading experience  :Wink:  But it's of course a pretty minor issue, once you get used to the writing style it's no problem anymore. The title piece sounds intriguing…!  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

Holy cow... I am finally done and about to post this in Finished Maps!!!!  :Very Happy: 
But wait, you say... is this the end of Haerlech, and its surrounding lands?

No. No it is not. There will be some more development on some Haerlech related stuff.
I'll post more about that later. But I'm finally done.  :Smile: 
Check the finished maps for the finished piece.
I'll link it here once I make the thread.

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## ChickPea

> Holy cow... I am finally done and about to post this in Finished Maps!!!!


Pics or it didn't happen!  :Razz:

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## J.Edward

Here's the Finished Map thread.  :Smile:

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## ChickPea

YAY!!  :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:   :Very Happy: 

Congrats! Is this the longest lasting WIP thread in Guild history?

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## J.Edward

> YAY!!   
> 
> Congrats! Is this the longest lasting WIP thread in Guild history?


I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure Fifty has been working on his city longer.
Still, it's a long thread.

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## ThomasR

Sorry to resurrect the beast but I spent part of my afternoon looking closely at it to solve some coloring issues and I'd like to thank you John. I'll have to process several things and go back to the WIP a few times but I guess I can see a solution to my problem  :Smile:

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## Norimn

The colours are very striking--looks great!

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## J.Edward

> Sorry to resurrect the beast but I spent part of my afternoon looking closely at it to solve some coloring issues and I'd like to thank you John. I'll have to process several things and go back to the WIP a few times but I guess I can see a solution to my problem


Apparently it is a beast that is slow to wake  :Surprised: 
Excellent. I am glad it is of use. It was a great learning experience for me.  :Smile: 



> The colours are very striking--looks great!


Thanks Norimn.  :Smile:

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## Hustle

J.Edward, I just stumbled upon this WiP thread, and WOW. This is the most detailed and thought out city I've seen from anyone, maybe ever! What a journey Haerlech has gone through. I may have missed this while skimming through the thread, but do you plan on writing any stories or lore behind the city? Especially, having seen glimpses of its development throughout time. I think that would be fantastic.

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## J.Edward

> J.Edward, I just stumbled upon this WiP thread, and WOW. This is the most detailed and thought out city I've seen from anyone, maybe ever! What a journey Haerlech has gone through. I may have missed this while skimming through the thread, but do you plan on writing any stories or lore behind the city? Especially, having seen glimpses of its development throughout time. I think that would be fantastic.


Hey Hustle, apologies on late response. I just saw that I had a comment needing response today.
Yes, there is a lot of story for the world of Luma, which is where Haerlech is located.
I have a number of maps and images that relate to Luma in some way or another.
I have some content I am slowly developing for something like a campaign or adventure module.
That stuff has not been released yet or posted online.

I have a folder on DeviantArt that contains images for Luma. 
And some of them have story snippets with them that you can read at the moment.

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