# Mapping Resources > Mapmaking Requests > [Unpaid] Logo

## Gurpsnut

I have a bit of an odd request from the wonderful members of the cartographers guild.

IÂm finishing up a custom build of a game table complete with a 55Â 4K tv recessed in the middle.   IÂm running ahead of schedule and want to surprise my gaming group.  They are aware that a new table is coming but donÂt know any of the particulars and definitely arenÂt expecting it so soon.  

When I reveal this table I thought itÂd be cool to have a logo displayed prominently on the screen.  Unfortunately Photoshop isnÂt one of my strengths and IÂm reluctant to ask any of my friends for fear of spoiling the surprise.  If any of you would be gracious enough to help out it would be awesome!

The logo needs to say ÂThe Heroes of SandpointÂ.   ItÂs a long story but itÂs become a catchphrase for our group.   We run a fantasy game based loosely on Pathfinder utilizing GURPS mechanics.  The logo can be as simple or complex as youÂd like.  Of course the group is going to be excited no matter what but I thought a cool ÂdefaultÂ screen would put it over the top.

Thank you in advance for your help!

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## Kellerica

Would this be a paid commission? That is usually pretty important part to include in your request  :Smile:

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## Naima

If you are asking for a Logo and plan a paid commission ...
I do a lot of them for gaming organizations and the like ... 
Feel free to check my samples here .
In case you are interested you can contact me directly on Deviant Art .

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## Azélor

Title says : [Unpaid] Logo

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## Gurpsnut

Yes, unpaid as included in the title.  Still new to the protocols here.  At this time my budget is wiped out from the build.  Thank you though for your consideration!

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## Kellerica

Oh. I could have sworn it didn't have the tag. Sorry then, my bad!

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## Voolf

Gurpsnut

It is extremaly hard to find someone to do the job for free. It is not impossible, there are some pople here who take unpaid commissions and help others for free, but one would not expect a high quality art.

That being said, even for someone who would like to help your for free, you gave too little information imo.
All i know you need is a logo that says "The Heroes of Sandpoint". Is it just TEXT you need? Plain or fancy? Any additional imagery?
Maybe you have some examples you are interested in to show.

This kind of info is necessary for person who would like to help you.
If it's just a plain text using certain font you need, it is simple enough for you to do it by yourself using any free graphic raster or vector software.

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## waldronate

As some examples of "not-high-quality-art" chopped together from some public-domain clipart (note that I am a programmer by trade, not an artist):

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## Kellerica

That fork/knife center  :Very Happy:  The Heroes of Sandpoint - a high fantasy catering crew! Bringing the magic of quality cuisine to YOUR event!

I'm sorry, Gurspnut, no offense intended! But Voolf has a point, unpaid is tricky and especially if you are in need of the job being completed fast. And like he said, some more info might give people a better idea of what you are after. 

Some food for thought, though: you can find lots of free-to-download Photoshop layer styles out there that could be an easy way to get a decent logo thingy made. Even if you are not a master with the software, these are usually easy to download and then all you have to do is apply the style to your selected layer and presto! So you could try picking up a font you like, write the text on a PS layer, open up layers styles and pick one of the styles you've downloaded, and see if you can come up with something that would work for you. This is what a quick search got me. I haven't used any of these so I don't know if they are any good or not, but might be worth checking out. Add some basic background, a wood or a stonework texture layer, for instance, again you can find lots of these for free (Pixabay, for an example, is a pretty decent free stock photo resource, I've found some nice backgrounds and textures there). You might be better off with this, than to find people to do the work for free, which as Voolf said, is not impossible but most certainly might prove a tad difficult.

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## Tiana

Lucky for you, I'm super high and I want some fantasy logo examples in my portfolio. As bequeaths such an arrangement, you now owe me 80 exposure dollars, preferably not of yourself.

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## ScottDA

Did OP use Tiana's generous free logo? Some form of acknowledgment and a few words of thanks would seem appropriate...

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## Tiana

> Did OP use Tiana's generous free logo? Some form of acknowledgment and a few words of thanks would seem appropriate...


And you see, this is why people don't get nice things.

I also whipped off a free map for someone on here once, and not a word of thanks! Ingrates! I've also had someone take off with a logo draft and a sketch draft without saying thank you or paying either. XP Honestly that's what grates me the most, I'm Canadian you see, so you ought to be polite.

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## Bogie

Not to downplay the lack of a courteous reply, but Gurpsnut has not been on the website since the day you posted your terrific Logo.  While reading your comment with the post, I wondered if he misunderstood your joke about him owing you 80 Exposure Dollars.  Anyone new to graphic arts might not be aware of the whole "working for Exposure" issue.  Maybe he thought you expected actual payment and got scared off.  Or maybe he just grabbed the Logo and ran, we may never know.
I hope it is just a misunderstanding and he will return one day and thank you properly.  In case he does not, I would like to offer you my thanks for your generous work and for representing Cartographer's Guild with style and honor.

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## ScottDA

> And you see, this is why people don't get nice things.
> 
> I also whipped off a free map for someone on here once, and not a word of thanks! Ingrates! I've also had someone take off with a logo draft and a sketch draft without saying thank you or paying either. XP Honestly that's what grates me the most, I'm Canadian you see, so you ought to be polite.


Some of the kindest, nicest, most polite people I've met have been Canadian.

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## Voolf

> Not to downplay the lack of a courteous reply, but Gurpsnut has not been on the website since the day you posted your terrific Logo.  While reading your comment with the post, I wondered if he misunderstood your joke about him owing you 80 Exposure Dollars.  Anyone new to graphic arts might not be aware of the whole "working for Exposure" issue.  Maybe he thought you expected actual payment and got scared off.  Or maybe he just grabbed the Logo and ran, we may never know.
> I hope it is just a misunderstanding and he will return one day and thank you properly.  In case he does not, I would like to offer you my thanks for your generous work and for representing Cartographer's Guild with style and honor.


As a matter of fact i DO NOT know what "working for Exposure" means. I suspect, it's just to advertise yourself more?, but "owing you 80 Exposure Dollars" is quite misleading...

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## Azélor

> As a matter of fact i DO NOT know what "working for Exposure" means. I  suspect, it's just to advertise yourself more?, but "owing you 80  Exposure Dollars" is quite misleading...


Yes, it's free advertisement.

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## Voolf

> Yes, it's free advertisement.


Thanks for confirming that  :Wink:

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## Naima

I have done lots of logos , one annoying thing is when someone commissions a work then disappears, or when friends ask for a logo and then don't even use it becouse they no longer need one (of course for free).
We must be carefull when doing free jobs couse not everyone understand that it requires time and work to make something , especially something professionally made and beautifull.

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## Kellerica

Logo design is also tougher to protect than a more complex illustration such as a map. At least with a map, you can limit the way someone can use it by laying on a heavy watermark and sending the client preview files in low resolution until you are paid (even if you still have wasted valuable hours if the client bails halfway through). But with a logo, you are in very large part selling the idea for the design, more than the hours it'll actually take to finally turn that idea into an usable vector, so it's much easier for the client to just grab the design in its sketch state and steal away with that, leaving you empty handed.

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## Falconius

> Yes, it's free advertisement.


Well, not quite.  It's the erroneous claim that it is free advertisement.  Except it's not free for you, since you actually have to put in the work, and except that they don't advertise you, they just use your work for free.  Unpaid interns get better compensation than "exposure".

Another point to be made is that very often people who pay in exposure actually think they are doing you the favour, and won't appreciate whatever you did for them the same as if you just said. "You can can have this for free."  Indeed they probably think you still owe them for the favour they did you, which to be clear, was absolutely nothing.

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## Naima

> Logo design is also tougher to protect than a more complex illustration such as a map. At least with a map, you can limit the way someone can use it by laying on a heavy watermark and sending the client preview files in low resolution until you are paid (even if you still have wasted valuable hours if the client bails halfway through). But with a logo, you are in very large part selling the idea for the design, more than the hours it'll actually take to finally turn that idea into an usable vector, so it's much easier for the client to just grab the design in its sketch state and steal away with that, leaving you empty handed.


Well , yes , the hardest part, for however strange it might seem , indesignign logos , is not realizing it , but brainstorming the idea ... It takes me 9/10 of the time to get a good idea than to actually design it.

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## ScottDA

> Well, not quite.  It's the erroneous claim that it is free advertisement.  Except it's not free for you, since you actually have to put in the work, and except that they don't advertise you, they just use your work for free.  Unpaid interns get better compensation than "exposure".
> 
> Another point to be made is that very often people who pay in exposure actually think they are doing you the favour, and won't appreciate whatever you did for them the same as if you just said. "You can can have this for free."  Indeed they probably think you still owe them for the favour they did you, which to be clear, was absolutely nothing.


This is spot on. I am an author/editor by trade and cannot tell you how many people out there want to get authors to submit work "for exposure" for books they are going to sell and thus make some money on. I see it here, too, although not as frequently, and it really irritates me. Your craft, be it cartography or writing or composing music or drawing, takes time and effort, so doing something for free actually puts you in the hole as YOU have invested your time for no payment of your services. That time you spent doing something for free could have been used for a paying job.

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## Voolf

> Well, not quite.  It's the erroneous claim that it is free advertisement.  Except it's not free for you, since you actually have to put in the work, and except that they don't advertise you, they just use your work for free.  Unpaid interns get better compensation than "exposure".
> 
> Another point to be made is that very often people who pay in exposure actually think they are doing you the favour, and won't appreciate whatever you did for them the same as if you just said. "You can can have this for free."  Indeed they probably think you still owe them for the favour they did you, which to be clear, was absolutely nothing.


Unless it's a well known company which can reach thousands of poeple with its product, hence expose your work much further, beyond your advertisement abillity, I absolutely agree  :Smile:

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## Kellerica

> Unless it's a well known company which can reach thousands of poeple with its product, hence expose your work much further, beyond your advertisement abillity, I absolutely agree


True enough, but then again, a well-known company is often a well-doing company. It's a bit easier to understand it when little indie projects just starting out are trying to get people involved for free, but a large company with actual income has zero excuses for wanting the product of your time and not paying you for it. Of course there can be exceptions to this time and again, but I'm sure you see my point.

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## Voolf

> True enough, but then again, a well-known company is often a well-doing company. It's a bit easier to understand it when little indie projects just starting out are trying to get people involved for free, but a large company with actual income has zero excuses for wanting the product of your time and not paying you for it. Of course there can be exceptions to this time and again, but I'm sure you see my point.


True. Still there are companies that "allow" you to put your work for exposure. Let's say you are amateur writer and want to advertise your stories in a big well known magazine about novels and short stories. Usually magazine like that will collect only "good" material for the issue and pay for them. They collect things they know readers will be interesed in.
Then they will safe couple pages for those "unknown" writers' stories. They will take your story and put in a magazine with an info about where to go for more. It works for both sides, because the company have extra article in their magazine, and you got the exposure. It's a service they provide for you, because you are new to market and not always people are willing to pay for your work right off the bat sometimes.

As for the maps, John's map Skenara got into Atlas of Design. I don't know if he got any money for that or not, but If they would ask me, I would be willing to give them one of my map free. Even if they ask me to make new one special for the atlas  :Very Happy: . For me it would be a great way to widen my audience.

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## Kellerica

Yeah, like I said, there of course can be cases where this kind of thing works. I'd be perfectly happy with the examples you mentioned too!

But sometimes you just get people who have all the means to pay you, but think they shouldn't have to because you're just "doodling pictures/pressing a button on your camera/clicking your mouse on your computer" and that is just plain disrespectful.

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## J.Edward

Do not work for free. 
You, and by extension, your time, have value. 
As much as everyone else's time.

Even your family should offer you a good meal, if nothing else, for your time. ;P

As to the atlas, it was free. The map was produced for other reasons and was already done.
I don't think I would have produced one just for that if it had been for free. 
That said, if it had been for a different publication [say, a larger, more clearly for profit publication like a magazine], I may not have been as willing.
I did argue with them about the terms and got them to change their contract terms.
Would I do it again... idk. Publicity is a good thing, but you have to find the balance that feels right.
It can be a tough call.

To counter my own point though...
I am about to spend a bunch of time free making a map for a challenge...  :Wink:

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## Naima

The only free works that could have a value in advertizement , are the "for fun" art when you are perhaps doing some art for a community, that community would publicize eventually your work , for example game mods , or personal projects or even the free contests here on the Guild, other "free" jobs are just done for "kindness" and not really bring any return in terms of visibility. 
So a Thankfull post would be the minimum.

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## Voolf

> I did argue with them about the terms and got them to change their contract terms.
> Would I do it again... idk. Publicity is a good thing, but you have to find the balance that feels right.
> It can be a tough call.


You mean the Atlas of Design ?

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## Falconius

> Unless it's a well known company which can reach thousands of poeple with its product, hence expose your work much further, beyond your advertisement abillity, I absolutely agree


  I'd be leery of any large or professional company that would ask for free work, perhaps even more so.  I mean I can understand why an individual would want free stuff, but a professional company?  They don't do things they don't charge for, and when they come up with the prices for their product or services they include in the budget the costs of art or labour or whatever else they need.  Anyways, doing stuff for limited individuals for 'exposure' is just a bad move. Especially when there are options for artists to participate in contests and/or display their work in places that specifically cater to giving artists a leg up and recognition and which specifically caters to the crowd they would want to be recognized by.  For instance NVIDIA is currently having a Future Cities competition, if CG artist or environment artist want exposure that's the sort of thing they do.  And if a trade magazine or social media thing like Artstation or Deviant Art wants to give an artist exposure, they do an interview and feature art the artist has already done.  Alternatively you can buy services that increase exposure, in places like Facebook or again Artstation (I only keep bringing up Artstation is because exposure is basically the purpose of the platform, and I'm familiar with it).

I started out silver smithing, silver doodads are the first art things that I've been paid money for, and if anyone had suggested that I do free silver work for them for exposure I would have just laughed in their faces.  "Ok I give you this necklace or this other doodad made of a precious metal, for free, and you get to enjoy it and use it and keep it, and you'll give me exposure in return?  Sounds like a great deal!"  Except who is going to pay for the silver?  And who's going to pay for equipment used to make it?  I was lucky because I didn't realize it then, but what your paying for with silverwork as with any other art is not the materials (because even with huge markups on just the material you'd never cover the cost of your time if that were the case), but the time spent investing in making it designing it and learning to design it and learning your craft;  I say I was lucky because I didn't value my time I spent, but silver is definitely not free and so I wasn't about to give things away for exposure.  In other words the material cost prevented me from devaluing my work, and prevented anyone having the gall to say I should be giving them free stuff, or I would certainly have fallen into the same trap as other artists do when they are working with pixels and bytes.

Now I know this discussion started out from Tiana's joke, but I can't just let the subject go without trying to encourage artists to value their time and experience appropriately, and say screw you too all those that would take advantage of others like that.  Which has no particular reflection on the OP or anyone else here, but Im always willing to rant about this when it comes up  :Smile:

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## Naima

> I'd be leery of any large or professional company that would ask for free work, perhaps even more so.  I mean I can understand why an individual would want free stuff, but a professional company?  They don't do things they don't charge for, and when they come up with the prices for their product or services they include in the budget the costs of art or labour or whatever else they need.  Anyways, doing stuff for limited individuals for 'exposure' is just a bad move. Especially when there are options for artists to participate in contests and/or display their work in places that specifically cater to giving artists a leg up and recognition and which specifically caters to the crowd they would want to be recognized by.  For instance NVIDIA is currently having a Future Cities competition, if CG artist or environment artist want exposure that's the sort of thing they do.  And if a trade magazine or social media thing like Artstation or Deviant Art wants to give an artist exposure, they do an interview and feature art the artist has already done.  Alternatively you can buy services that increase exposure, in places like Facebook or again Artstation (I only keep bringing up Artstation is because exposure is basically the purpose of the platform, and I'm familiar with it).
> 
> I started out silver smithing, silver doodads are the first art things that I've been paid money for, and if anyone had suggested that I do free silver work for them for exposure I would have just laughed in their faces.  "Ok I give you this necklace or this other doodad made of a precious metal, for free, and you get to enjoy it and use it and keep it, and you'll give me exposure in return?  Sounds like a great deal!"  Except who is going to pay for the silver?  And who's going to pay for equipment used to make it?  I was lucky because I didn't realize it then, but what your paying for with silverwork as with any other art is not the materials (because even with huge markups on just the material you'd never cover the cost of your time if that were the case), but the time spent investing in making it designing it and learning to design it and learning your craft;  I say I was lucky because I didn't value my time I spent, but silver is definitely not free and so I wasn't about to give things away for exposure.  In other words the material cost prevented me from devaluing my work, and prevented anyone having the gall to say I should be giving them free stuff, or I would certainly have fallen into the same trap as other artists do when they are working with pixels and bytes.
> 
> Now I know this discussion started out from Tiana's joke, but I can't just let the subject go without trying to encourage artists to value their time and experience appropriately, and say screw you too all those that would take advantage of others like that.  Which has no particular reflection on the OP or anyone else here, but Im always willing to rant about this when it comes up


I agree but I would like to highlight two points ...
Usually only who wins the Competition gets the "desired" exposure, so you risk to make a lot of work and be just one of the many partecipants ... I am talking of the really big competitions like the ones you said.
Another point is the "pricing" of the work you do, I have tons of requests for commisions, but knowing the time I take on my works I basically reject lots of them because people think or value very little the time someone is investing in creating a good work.
Sometimes takes a few days, some others entire weeks,  When someone realize the price Tag I tell them they usually first ask for a "redux" or simplier version or less detail etc, but honestly I do not feel to make a "less" good artwork, I wouldn't be able to do it and in the end I would put the same effort in it for free, so I decided to put a price limit under which I won't go under and this worked as barrier for commissions, loosing most of them, 
I have no idea how others do if are faster then me or make pay much less, but in all honesty time is worth and precious and if I have to do something for free, then I prefer it to be for something I like like personal projects or competitions.

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## Voolf

> I'd be leery of any large or professional company that would ask for free work, perhaps even more so.  I mean I can understand why an individual would want free stuff, but a professional company?  They don't do things they don't charge for, and when they come up with the prices for their product or services they include in the budget the costs of art or labour or whatever else they need.  Anyways, doing stuff for limited individuals for 'exposure' is just a bad move. Especially when there are options for artists to participate in contests and/or display their work in places that specifically cater to giving artists a leg up and recognition and which specifically caters to the crowd they would want to be recognized by.  For instance NVIDIA is currently having a Future Cities competition, if CG artist or environment artist want exposure that's the sort of thing they do.  And if a trade magazine or social media thing like Artstation or Deviant Art wants to give an artist exposure, they do an interview and feature art the artist has already done.  Alternatively you can buy services that increase exposure, in places like Facebook or again Artstation (I only keep bringing up Artstation is because exposure is basically the purpose of the platform, and I'm familiar with it).
> 
> I started out silver smithing, silver doodads are the first art things that I've been paid money for, and if anyone had suggested that I do free silver work for them for exposure I would have just laughed in their faces.  "Ok I give you this necklace or this other doodad made of a precious metal, for free, and you get to enjoy it and use it and keep it, and you'll give me exposure in return?  Sounds like a great deal!"  Except who is going to pay for the silver?  And who's going to pay for equipment used to make it?  I was lucky because I didn't realize it then, but what your paying for with silverwork as with any other art is not the materials (because even with huge markups on just the material you'd never cover the cost of your time if that were the case), but the time spent investing in making it designing it and learning to design it and learning your craft;  I say I was lucky because I didn't value my time I spent, but silver is definitely not free and so I wasn't about to give things away for exposure.  In other words the material cost prevented me from devaluing my work, and prevented anyone having the gall to say I should be giving them free stuff, or I would certainly have fallen into the same trap as other artists do when they are working with pixels and bytes.
> 
> Now I know this discussion started out from Tiana's joke, but I can't just let the subject go without trying to encourage artists to value their time and experience appropriately, and say screw you too all those that would take advantage of others like that.  Which has no particular reflection on the OP or anyone else here, but Im always willing to rant about this when it comes up


I absolutely agree with you here.
I think you just missed my point.

First and foremost, it is not company that ask you to do job for them for free, it is YOU who want exposure and are willing to give some of your work for free to the company because you know it will reach many people. (That was my point) and that is what you said about artstation and deviant art.

And second, i am of course talking about work where you have to put effort and time, not actually a lot of money into it. Comparing digital work with silver doodads is not good. Of course noone will do that kind of work for free because you have to buy the material first.
Drawing a map (where you already have necessary things) either tablet and pc or pen and paper isn't so expensive. I think everyone can spare couple bucks on electicity or pens for one work if they know it may bring you future clients.

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## Kellerica

While digital mapping and silver-work are not directly comparable, I'd still argue that there is more to it than couple of bucks on electricity. There is always some running equipment cost (and this is something that most digital-work pros, such as graphic designers and the like will actually charge you for). You must have a decent computer at your disposal, and even if you don't have to buy a new one for this particular piece, you have invested quite a lot of money into it at some point, and in order to be able to do the work, you must use money to keep it in decent working condition. You also have graphic tablets and other additional equipment (I'm still paying the cost of getting my Cintiq), also something you've had to invest in. And of course our good friend Adobe also charges me quite a lot just to have the necessary software at hand. Aaand I've bought textures, fonts, some graphic elements such as deco borders, and all of this is stuff I use to make my maps and that I've had to pay the license for. 

All of this is stuff that you will have to have, in order to be able to do the work you do. So writing it of as something that is not relevant to the price of the product you make, I don't think that is very sensible either.

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## Tiana

> Some of the kindest, nicest, most polite people I've met have been Canadian.


Thank you. I hope I someday will be included in those kindest people you've met.




> As a matter of fact i DO NOT know what "working for Exposure" means. I suspect, it's just to advertise yourself more?, but "owing you 80 Exposure Dollars" is quite misleading...


I recommend r/choosingbeggers or ClientsfromHell to get a sense of where the joke came from.

To very specifically explain my mentality at the moment, I wanted to make a "working for exposure" joke since that's the most common substitution for pay. I phrased it in that fashion in the hopes to make a joke that wouldn't result in someone sending me a dick pick in response, instead of saying, "You owe me an exposure", I wanted to try associate "exposure" with a substitute for "money".

However, I hoped that the fact that I posted an unwatermarked full res image made it explicitly clear _it was a donation._ And I expected nothing from posting it other than the experience creating that logo. Which took like 5 minutes of my precious time, and entertained me for a moment or three. I basically used it as a draft version of what was going to go onto a map I was making at the time to explore a way of setting up some type, so personally there was no loss, and I reserve the right to chose to to occasional work for free when it benefits me.




> Usually only who wins the Competition gets the "desired" exposure, so you risk to make a lot of work and be just one of the many partecipants ... I am talking of the really big competitions like the ones you said.
> Another point is the "pricing" of the work you do, I have tons of requests for commisions, but knowing the time I take on my works I basically reject lots of them because people think or value very little the time someone is investing in creating a good work.
> Sometimes takes a few days, some others entire weeks,  When someone realize the price Tag I tell them they usually first ask for a "redux" or simplier version or less detail etc, but honestly I do not feel to make a "less" good artwork, I wouldn't be able to do it and in the end I would put the same effort in it for free, so I decided to put a price limit under which I won't go under and this worked as barrier for commissions, loosing most of them, 
> I have no idea how others do if are faster then me or make pay much less, but in all honesty time is worth and precious and if I have to do something for free, then I prefer it to be for something I like like personal projects or competitions.


1) it's why I don't enter any of the contests and my work is almost never seen here. Waste of time when I have paid clients already. There was ONE challenge that eeeeeeehhh I wanted to do it because it would've filled in an interesting gap in my portfolio but I just had too much work slated already. And plus if I really want to work on non-paid maps, I have an entire world of my own.

2) I'm capable of whipping out certain styles really fast and will therefore do cheap maps in those styles for indi clients. Sorry. But our styles don't really overlap, I don't think there's any point where I'm fishing for the clients who want your realistic mapping. Anyway, I'm charging cheap prices when I do these (definitely not everything–cheap means "stamps" get used) and they remain in line with my hourly rate, and I'm capable of forcing myself to send off work I hate and never saying a word if my client loves it.

3) Although I now outright ask for what I want and negotiate from there and I do have a cut-off rate for "too small" of a commission too, unless I love the work for some reason.





> While digital mapping and silver-work are not directly comparable, I'd still argue that there is more to it than couple of bucks on electricity. There is always some running equipment cost (and this is something that most digital-work pros, such as graphic designers and the like will actually charge you for). You must have a decent computer at your disposal, and even if you don't have to buy a new one for this particular piece, you have invested quite a lot of money into it at some point, and in order to be able to do the work, you must use money to keep it in decent working condition. You also have graphic tablets and other additional equipment (I'm still paying the cost of getting my Cintiq), also something you've had to invest in. And of course our good friend Adobe also charges me quite a lot just to have the necessary software at hand. Aaand I've bought textures, fonts, some graphic elements such as deco borders, and all of this is stuff I use to make my maps and that I've had to pay the license for.


I've bought a total of 3 graphic tablets (including a Cintiq, used), at least 2 programs which I use on a daily basis, textures, a few graphic elements (I found a steal on a whole bunch of these and paid about $100 for an ENORMOUS collection of assets and textures), probably some font packs. I work at night so I pay for the electricity to light the house. I pay for web hosting. While the investment to start my map making business is relatively low... there is still a cost, and I claim that cost on my taxes.

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## Diamond

> To counter my own point though...
> I am about to spend a bunch of time free making a map for a challenge...


Ah, but you can always sell that map later on down the road.  I've done that a couple of times with my challenge entries.

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## Kellerica

> Ah, but you can always sell that map later on down the road.  I've done that a couple of times with my challenge entries.


True, and besides, a free map done for a challenge still means that you are doing it for your own enjoyment. You are free to work just in the way and speed you want, and free to drop out anytime you want if you are not feeling it. I've offered to do free maps with these conditions once or twice when people have asked me to: you can use the map I made for your game, but all the creative decisions will be made by me, I'll work at my own pace and will hold the right to sell it afterwards. Most people aren't too wild about this kind of deal, but if they are not paying me, I will not treat them in the same way as a paying customer.

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## Naima

> Ah, but you can always sell that map later on down the road.  I've done that a couple of times with my challenge entries.


How do you sell down the road? I mean I usually put them online freely , you sell prints?

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## ScottDA

Another issue with the asking for free maps issue, and not to pick on OP, this is a general observation, but they are always from new people who come here just to ask for something for nothing. It might not be so bad if they were a part of the community and had even 10 or 20 posts, but they never do. It would be like going into a restaurant you've never been to, asking for a free meal, getting it, and then never going back. Seems almost rude. At least if it were someone from the community there would be some communal bond and familiarity and a sense of "doing for one's own."

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## Kellerica

> Another issue with the asking for free maps issue, and not to pick on OP, this is a general observation, but they are always from new people who come here just to ask for something for nothing. It might not be so bad if they were a part of the community and had even 10 or 20 posts, but they never do. It would be like going into a restaurant you've never been to, asking for a free meal, getting it, and then never going back. Seems almost rude. At least if it were someone from the community there would be some communal bond and familiarity and a sense of "doing for one's own."


Also a good point. Doing a favor for someone you could consider a friend is always a different matter (even though sometimes it can also be an equally bad idea!).

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## Falconius

> I absolutely agree with you here.
> I think you just missed my point.
> 
> First and foremost, it is not company that ask you to do job for them for free, it is YOU who want exposure and are willing to give some of your work for free to the company because you know it will reach many people. (That was my point) and that is what you said about artstation and deviant art.
> 
> And second, i am of course talking about work where you have to put effort and time, not actually a lot of money into it. Comparing digital work with silver doodads is not good. Of course noone will do that kind of work for free because you have to buy the material first.
> Drawing a map (where you already have necessary things) either tablet and pc or pen and paper isn't so expensive. I think everyone can spare couple bucks on electicity or pens for one work if they know it may bring you future clients.


Ah yeah I see.  I misunderstood what you meant.  As for the silver comparison my point was that the true cost isn't in the materials, but I just so happened to be lucky enough to be working in a material that saved me from myself.

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To the topic at hand:

Competitions are a different matter.  There is absolutely no point in doing them unless you are doing it for yourself and having a bit of fun.  You might win or you might not.  It's not much different from people who participate in marathons or things of that nature.  I think that the online nature of competitions still showcases your work if you are good enough and participate over time.  Not only the winner will gain exposure, they just happen to gain the most exposure.  Finalists all gain as do second and third place etc.

Exposure is actually a valuable commodity, it's just that people who offer it think it requires nothing on their end.  For instance art galleries do a lot of work to promote their artist and to try and sell the art, and they also take a big chunk of commission for all that work time and effort they put in doing so (I think 50% is average).  And it's worth it for most artists.  Some artist are masters of marketing themselves, like Picasso or Warhol, and often enough they bring others along for the ride.  But all that said 'exposure' is work, skills, connection and knowledge and effort that the ones offering it to pay for stuff are totally clueless about.  Indeed the ones offering actual exposure do want something for themselves, but they also want something for the artist too.  They won't just say, "Give me free stuff and you'll be doing yourself a favour."  That is what is known as a scam.
(although it occurs to me that is exactly what a lot of social media "influencers" do.  I think it's different marketing off the shelf stuff though, the structure of sales is a completely different beast.)

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## Tiana

> Competitions are a different matter.  There is absolutely no point in doing them unless you are doing it for yourself and having a bit of fun.  You might win or you might not.  It's not much different from people who participate in marathons or things of that nature.  I think that the online nature of competitions still showcases your work if you are good enough and participate over time.  Not only the winner will gain exposure, they just happen to gain the most exposure.  Finalists all gain as do second and third place etc.


I can think of some reasons to do a competition.

-As an excuse to hone your skill.
-To add a new piece to your portfolio.
-To give yourself a time challenge and improve your speed of production.
-To create new assets for your future map commissions.
-To create a piece you can sell or give away as a print or asset for an RPG.
-For the thrill of the race/because you love competing with other people.
-Because you'll probably be taken more seriously on this site if you have one of the badges.
-To test your mettle in battle.
-You're feeling creatively pooped and can't think of a good idea but you feel like drawing something anyway.

As for exposure being valuable, sure it is! Proper marketing's a big deal.

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## Diamond

> How do you sell down the road? I mean I usually put them online freely , you sell prints?


The two times I've done so, it's been people who wanted to use them (semi)commercially.  One guy loved the map so much he wanted to write a setting handbook and try to sell it thru RPGDriveThru or something.  He paid me a lump sum up front as well as agreeing to pay me a yearly stipend based on annual profits if any were forthcoming.  I retained copyright on the map.  I never heard from him again, and the initial sum was one I was happy with, so all is good.  

The other guy was part of some convention scene in Spain and wanted to make prints of a map to sell commercially.  I charged him a somewhat heftier fee, and since it was a map I had no intention of ever doing anything at all with, it's his free and clear.  If he makes a fortune off it, more power to him.

At the end of the day, I'm not a professional artist; I do this for fun.  So your mileage may vary on what you'd allow or not.

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