# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Regional/World Mapping >  Batikshal Empire

## Ilanthar

OK, I'm trying sort of a new style (or a few things in addition to what I did before...) with my tablet. And I decided to experiment on a map of one of the twelve countries of my Egishirgal setting (I already did "Vodya" and a map of the 7 worlds).
I took care to not repeat the mistake I did for Vodya (I hope) and tried to put the Empire in the middle of the frame. I'm experimenting a bit of everything, so... nothing is completely done (there are more rivers, mountains, forests, etc...).
### Latest WIP ###

Comments always welcome!

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## Voolf

Starts very promising, looking forward to see more.

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## ThomasR

I love the land shapes and the fluffiness of the forests. Off to a good start !

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## - JO -

Good job with the mountains : I like their shape and the details in it... One question : what about the scale of the mountains ? Regarding the peninsula on the left, they seems huge, don't they ? Or the peninsula is not very wide ?

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## kacey

Very nice start Ilanthar, those mountains look awesome. I'll be patiently waiting to see this progress.

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## Mouse

I'm in love with your mountains, Ilanthar.... :sigh:

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## Ilanthar

@Voolf & Kacey : Thanks, working on it  :Smile: !
@Thomrey : Héhé, I value the comment, comming from the "forest grand experimenter"  :Wink: .
@ -Jo- : Thanks! Good question about the mountain size... I basically use my old map as a basis... Well, it's more a non-realistic representation than anything else, I suppose. So, mountains are overly exagerated  :Surprised: .
@Mouse : Thanks! I'm trying to do some different ones... I kinda feel I'm always doing the same pointy mountains  :Very Happy: .

Just a bit more...
### Latest WIP ###

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## ChickPea

Looking good! The way the mountains tail off into the forests is fab.

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## Ilanthar

Thanks ChickPea!

Small Update

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## Abu Lafia

Wow, these mountains and forests are just brilliant Ilanthar, I love the shadowplay you have going on there, very lively! The shape of your coast is fascinating as always. Really looking forward to see this unfold.  :Smile:

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## Ilanthar

@jfrazierjr : it's partly intentional. I like the drawn-like style due to a the line width variation. But, I did the mistake to do the coastline without the rivers at first, hence the noticeable difference at the rivers's mouths...

@Kacey & Thomrey : thanks. I'm reworking the colors, though. I used more layers and one is for an additional shading with the colors. What do you think?

Also, I'm wondering about the additional illustrations on the other countries... People/characters/animals of the different principalities/provinces, or heraldry?
### Latest WIP ###

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## jfrazierjr

> @jfrazierjr : it's partly intentional. I like the drawn-like style due to a the line width variation. But, I did the mistake to do the coastline without the rivers at first, hence the noticeable difference at the rivers's mouths...
> 
> @Kacey & Thomrey : thanks. I'm reworking the colors, though. I used more layers and one is for an additional shading with the colors. What do you think?
> 
> Also, I'm wondering about the additional illustrations on the other countries... People/characters/animals of the different principalities/provinces, or heraldry?
> ### Latest WIP ###


I think the heraldry you had had since the beginning is the best option.   I am looking for forward to seeing the colors getting filled in.

I would like to see the forests toned down just a little bit(but I am kind of wishy-washy on this point though and can't really make up my mind!).

as for the line work.. it was an annoyance, but the more I look at the map and all of the features in aggregate, while it still bugs me some it's less distracting knowing it's entirely reasonable for someone to have just drawn it sloppily "in character".

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## Bjorn Schievers

Nice! How long has it taken you in total to do this map?

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## Ilanthar

> *By jfrazierjr*
> I think the heraldry you had had since the beginning is the best option. I am looking for forward to seeing the colors getting filled in.
> I would like to see the forests toned down just a little bit(but I am kind of wishy-washy on this point though and can't really make up my mind!).


Thanks! Well, I won't do much more drawings, indeed. I've done almost all the colors on the first layer... I still have to do the second layer which also serve as an additional shading, so I'm not sure it's gonna be so washed in the end.




> *By Bjorn Schievers*
> Nice! How long has it taken you in total to do this map?


Thanks! I don't exactly know how much time I spended to do it (and it's not finished by the way). Maybe between 35 and 45 hours.

I also change the color for mountains.
### Latest WIP ###

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## Ilanthar

I'm mostly done with colors and second (colored) shading.

I'm just not so sure about the buildings (my "reddish" tests are in the circles).Thoughts?
### Latest WIP ###

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## Rongar

Looks amazing! Maybe paint the walls for the buildings a bit brighter or even white(-ish)? To get a little more contrast between them and their roofs. But they're fine as they are. I don't think anyone would complain about the color of the buildings.

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## Mouse

A tiny bit more colour overall?

No?

If not, its lovely as it is, and I think the buildings you've done are right for the rest of the map, coloured just as it is  :Smile:

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## kacey

I love the map, but since you asked I think the red looks pink, at least on my monitor. I don't mind the colour I just think it could be better. I think if you keep the walls of the buildings like this, and changed the colour of the roofs or vice versa it would look good. Right now the roof, and wall colours are too similar in my opinion, but like the others I still think it looks alright. If it were me I would tone down the pink on the walls, and make the roofs green, or make the walls more whiteish grey, and make the roofs more red, and less pink... 

I think it's kind of funny that the nicest maps get the most nit picks  :Wink:

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## Bjorn Schievers

The more I look at it the more I like it. How much would this map have cost as a commission, on average?

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## Ilanthar

Thanks for your views, guys!

So, I decided to suppress the color part of the walls, which makes the roofs pop more, I think.
Here's the result on the same part :

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## snodsy

This looks amazing, maybe shadow one side of the rivers?  Love the style

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## kacey

The new building colour looks much better.

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## Tom

Ilanthar, this map is coming out so nicely! Your skills are really improved! I expecially like "the fluffines of the forests" (cit.) and your gorgeous illustrations, your lizard that "pop out of the map" is top notch  :Very Happy:

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## Ilanthar

> *By Bjorn Schievers*
> The more I look at it the more I like it. How much would this map have cost as a commission, on average?


Thanks!
It depends of different things to discuss with the commissioner (like the copyright question). But, as far as I'm concerned, as a basis, I wouldn't work below an hourly rate of 10 euros (my very minimum considering there are taxes...).




> *By Snodsy*
> This looks amazing, maybe shadow one side of the rivers? Love the style


You're not making it easy ! I've done a try but my rivers aren't so large in many sections... I was thinking to give a new try though.




> *By Kacey*
> The new building colour looks much better.


Thanks! I agree.




> *By Tom*
> Ilanthar, this map is coming out so nicely! Your skills are really improved! I expecially like "the fluffines of the forests" (cit.) and your gorgeous illustrations, your lizard that "pop out of the map" is top notch


Thanks, Tom! Not sure of where I'm gonna put the lizard in the end... I usually put it in a corner, but I already have things in the corners here.

I'll try to do an update today or tomorrow.

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## Voolf

The colours are much better than the last time i saw. As for the buildings i would try to keep roofs as they are but make walls subtle grey? It is not much of a work, you can check it out and if you dont like it then keep it like now.

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## Ilanthar

> *By Voolf*
> The colours are much better than the last time i saw. As for the buildings i would try to keep roofs as they are but make walls subtle grey? It is not much of a work, you can check it out and if you dont like it then keep it like now.


Thanks! I added a grey look to the building (I think).

And a few boats, borders, and some labels tests...
### Latest WIP ###

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## Mouse

Its beautiful Ilanthar  :Very Happy: 

But I do prefer the old font you had on the map before you changed it, even though its more informal than this one.

Maybe there's a tidier version of the other font somewhere?

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## kacey

This just keeps getting better, and better all the time. I like the little boats so far, are you going to add some hatching to them? And the new font is good too, I can't say if I like the new one or the old one more because to me their both great. If you don't mind my asking where can I get these fonts I really like them both.

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## Diamond

I can only echo what everyone else has said: this is gorgeous, Ilanthar.  I love the differences in the forest types.  It's subtle, but just feels 'right'.

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## jfrazierjr

I wonder what it might look like if you pulled a little blue into the swamp area

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## Ilanthar

Thanks everyone for the comments  :Smile: .
@ Kacey : for the title and big things, it's "Aquiline Two". The "old font" is "Jellyka Grand Saut Textual". The more clean one is "Dumbledor Thin". You could probably have them on dafont.com

Checklist : 
     * shadow line on rivers (visible?)
     * old font back (hope it's legible enough)
     * hatching on the boats
     * blue on the swamps (too much?)
Please, don't add too many things to do for the poor Ilanthar  :Very Happy: !
### Latest WIP ###

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## Bjorn Schievers

So let's say 'my' map would take you 50 hours at 10 euro per hour, that's 500 euro. This would not include copyright I assume. And I fully understand you're saying that would be the absolute minimum.  :Smile:  

What does it mean if you retain copyright? Is it done to not buy copyright immediately, but pay extra for that later?

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## kacey

What ever you've done to the rivers looks great, it's subtle, but really changes the look. I wouldn't change it a bit, more would be too much, and less would be not enough, I think you've struck a perfect balance here, the shadow on the rivers is brilliant.

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## Ilanthar

> *By Bjorn Schievers*
> So let's say 'my' map would take you 50 hours at 10 euro per hour, that's 500 euro. This would not include copyright I assume. And I fully understand you're saying that would be the absolute minimum.
> What does it mean if you retain copyright? Is it done to not buy copyright immediately, but pay extra for that later?


There are quite a few things more to consider (copyright being just one). There's a good guidance here, but we can discuss it in Private Messaging (or at ilanthar.cartographer@gmx.com) if you want.

Thanks Kacey!
I'm struggling with labels. I've done a new test with another font which I find more legible. Better?
I also use french, because of some names that are hard to translate...
### Latest WIP ###

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## Mouse

I like that font much better.  It doesn't jump out and bite you quite as much (which is fine in a bold map, but this one is much too subtle and graceful to carry it well)  :Smile: 

Why is "Syriako" crossed out?

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## Ilanthar

Thanks Mouse, that's reassuring  :Smile: .



> *By Mouse*
>  Why is "Syriako" crossed out?


My way to indicate : it's the ruins of the old city of Syriako.

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## Rongar

I too find the new font better. It's easier to read while maintaining a style that goes very well with this kind of map. The text in the water could be a little brighter, though. Just a tad, for I find them a bit hard to read right now. Or maybe it's my monitor. I don't think my settings are color neutral.

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## kacey

This font is nice too, but for this map I prefer the previous versions they look more scratchy, if that makes any sense. I just think the first few fonts better matched the really sketchy style of the map, almost like you had written them yourself by hand. The new one looks a little too clean in my opinion, tho I'd like to use it one day it is a really nice font, you seem to have a nack for picking the good ones.

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## Voolf

Ilanthar when i read this thread i feel so sorry for you.... You clearly want to finish this one but Mouse (the strict teacher) just keep throwing at ya more and more  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:

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## Mouse

Do I?  :Shocked: 

Oh.

I'm soooorry  :Smile: 

I know where I get it from, though - both my parents were teachers  :Razz:

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## Ilanthar

Thanks everyone!

@Rongar : I agree and I brightened a bit the water labels.
@Kacey : I've done three other tests today with similar "scratchy" fonts, but it becomes always hard to read for the smallest/curviest labels  :Frown: ... So, I'll keep this one, it's more clean but still calligraphic.
@Voolf & Mouse :  :Very Happy: , don't worry, I do intend to finish this one soon, but I can do minor changes and still appreciate suggestions. Plus, both my parents were teachers as well  :Wink: .

More labels. I failed to place the names of the imperial provinces, so I suppose I'll add a mini-map with them just above the title.
### Latest WIP ###

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## Tenia

Love it, Fonts are OK for me. Just to split hairs : you could may be center "Royaume des Brisants" on the two main islands ? Did you tried a dark outline on white labels on the sea ? just to test
Congrats

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## Ilanthar

Thanks Tenia  :Smile: !

I did a slight dark halo around the sea labels. And more labels, of course...

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## ChickPea

I haven't commented on this in a while, but I've loved watching it develop because it's simply fantastic. Those forests! The mountains! The texture!  :Very Happy:  

I think this is probably my new favourite maps of yours. The border is gorgeous too.

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## Ilanthar

Thanks a lot ChickPea  :Smile: !

More labels and a first draft for the mini-map (not sure if it's appropriate since I didn't planned it at first). It obviously need a frame of some sort...
### Latest WIP ###

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## Abu Lafia

Wow, i haven't seen the coloured version before and it looks simply brilliant Ilanthar, truly stunning work! The mini map is great and well readable. I agree without a frame it looks still a bit too much "hanging in the air". Have no good idea atm how to incoorporate it better into the overall layout (maybe giving it a circle shape like the other corner elements?), but i'm sure you'll find a good solution!  :Wink:

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## ThomasR

Bon ! Il démarre quand le Patreon ?

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## Ilanthar

> *By Abu Lafia*
> (maybe giving it a circle shape like the other corner elements?


Actually, that's an excellent idea! Thanks a lot, Abu Lafia  :Smile: !




> *By Thomrey*
> Bon ! Il démarre quand le Patreon ?


Un ami m'a parlé de Tipeee... Donc je pense que je vais faire les deux. Il faut que je prépare le côté français du coup, mais peut-être que je pourrait démarrer les deux la semaine prochaine  :Wink: .

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## ThomasR

Guillaume Tavernier fait les deux et je pense que Kosmic fait de même. J'ai hâte  :Wink:

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## Ilanthar

> *By Thomrey*
> Guillaume Tavernier fait les deux et je pense que Kosmic fait de même. J'ai hâte.


Cela semble être une bonne option  :Wink: .

My test with Abu Lafia's idea for the mini map. I will try to put the last labels and to finish it tomorrow.
### Latest WIP ###

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## - JO -

The map is huge and yet so detailed ... It represents an incredible job! Forests, mountains, towns and villages are each a the works of art! I do not even talk about fantastic animals !!! In my opinion the font is OK and the mini map is quite readable. As for the border, it is another work of art in itself! A real masterpiece!

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## Abu Lafia

Haven't thought this idea would work so well  :Wink:  I'm glad i could help you a bit with this magnificent map of yours Ilanthar! Btw. i think the linework of your lovely little ships got lost in the process...?

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## Ilanthar

Thanks a lot guys!

I redid the mini-map, though. I wasn't completely satisfied by my quick test... I hope you'll like the new one as well!

@ Abu Lafia : yup, I don't know what *** I did... I (quickly) remade them.
### Latest WIP ###

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## Mouse

I really like the inset - a great idea... but... might it look even better if it was more like only a quarter of a sphere?

Only asking what you think - not saying that it would, or anything  :Smile:

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## Voolf

> I really like the inset - a great idea... but... might it look even better if it was more like only a quarter of a sphere?


I will pray for your soul Ilanthar. You probably will pull your hair out in insanity.

Please dont take it seriously, you two. I am just having fun  :Very Happy: 
Btw. the new addition you made looks awesome.

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## Mouse

Ok that's it.

Detention time!!!  :Razz:

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## damonjynx

Awesome. Really nice, Ilanther.

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## Voolf

> Ok that's it.
> 
> Detention time!!!


Oh no.... well i will wait in the 'Finished map' room then...  :Razz:

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## Ilanthar

> *By Mouse*
>  I really like the inset - a great idea... but... might it look even better if it was more like only a quarter of a sphere?


True, but the shape of the country makes it difficult to put in a quarter... Believe me, I tried (maybe not hard enough, though)  :Very Happy: .

Thanks a lot everyone  :Smile: !
You can find the final map here.

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## JCW

I love this map. I have really enjoyed following you making it.

I am not sure if I love the coloring. It lacks contrast. All of it sort of muddles together. Nothing pops out. The cities blend into the background. 

Personally, I would love to see a version with a bit more contrast. But then that might just be me.

Still my favorite map.

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## jfrazierjr

> I love this map. I have really enjoyed following you making it.
> 
> I am not sure if I love the coloring. It lacks contrast. All of it sort of muddles together. Nothing pops out. The cities blend into the background. 
> 
> Personally, I would love to see a version with a bit more contrast. But then that might just be me.
> 
> Still my favorite map.


I had suggested the low contrast.    In my mind, the original high contrast coloring would make the very large swaths of untouched land look very out of place.    Ilanthar seemed to agree as he kept that final format.    His original colors were great(with what little he had), but would make the empty areas stand out even more as bright as they were.

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## Bjorn Schievers

> Thanks a lot guys!
> 
> I redid the mini-map, though. I wasn't completely satisfied by my quick test... I hope you'll like the new one as well!
> 
> @ Abu Lafia : yup, I don't know what *** I did... I (quickly) remade them.
> ### Latest WIP ###
> Attachment 92533


Beautiful! And great detail!!

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## Ilanthar

Thanks a lot JCW. About the colors, well, I kinda agree with Jfrazierjr, hence my choice  :Wink: .
Thanks again Bjorn, I appreciate  :Smile: !

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## Pixie

Don't forget to label this gorgeous with 2017. We're in February and this is a serious contender for Map of the Year... And for Cartographer's Choice!

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## ChickPea

Just a quick aside... Pixie, we've managed to overcome the tagging issue for the Atlas Awards. Redrobes managed to put together a gallery of thumbnails, and it pulls the thread creation date from the database, so no tags are required unless someone wants to tag their maps for personal use, of course. In case you missed it, you can see Redrobes' comment about the gallery here.

Also, I agree about the Cartographers' Choice!  :Very Happy:

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## Ilanthar

Thank you both, you're too kind  :Smile: !

PS : I think I did used a feb 2017 tag  :Wink: .

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