# Main > General Discussion >  How to choose a tool for mapping?

## nichendrix

I'm a begginer in map making, mostly Sci-Fi, and from time to time Fantasy and Modern stuff stuff too, back in the day, when I've played a lot, I usually used either doing it by hand or using vector/CAD software CorelDraw/Illustrator and AutoCad to make my maps, but it's usually very time consuming, so I was thinking about choosing a map tool, is dedicated software like Campaign Cartographer 3+Cosmographer 3 and Fractal Mapper 8.0+Astrosynthesis 3.0, or any other dedicated software still a good choice or I would best invest my time how to improve my Photoshop/GIMP skills to do it with them (which I think is as time consuming as CorelDraw/Ilustrator)? 

After over a decade without regular playing and DMing, I'm completely at a loss at what to look into to make maps to my games.

----------


## rebelandarunner

:Smile: 

I know exactly of the problem you're talking about.  

Years ago, I had worked with a LARP to help them develop their maps and used Adobe Illustrator (versions 88 and 3.X).  At the time, my fantasy gaming was done using canned milieus (Greyhawk, et. al) and I never needed to worry about mapping my own world.  

About 20 years ago, I've been working on developing a notion for my own gaming world.  I began with sketches which I traced in MS Paint.  To say they were bad would be an understatement.  However, since I refuse to throw out most of my gaming stuff, they were shoved into a folder called "Gaming World" buried in the recesses of my hard drive.  Fast forward to 6, maybe 7, years ago, I decided it was time to move forward with all of the ideas I had.  

The first thing I decided to do was investigate software to do this all electronically.  Ha!  I was going to get on top of this and do it right so I looked into some of the GIS packages which were available at the time.  Didn't take me long to realize that I didn't have the time to learn a new technology so I opted to go with what I knew, which was the vector desktop graphics route as well.  The problem was that Adobe Illustrator was still ridiculously expensive for my purposes.

I looked at what my options were and selected Inkscape.  It's not the most robust program, but it was the first one I found which met my requirements and my price point (in this case, free).  While I wouldn't recommend that you plan to use Inkscape for a major gaming world mapping project, its strength lies in the fact that it allowed me to autotrace the scans of the maps I had made over the years, saving me HOURS of manual tracing coastlines.  It also allowed me to edit and save all of my work in SVG files.  

After the project became too cumbersome for Inkscape, I found that Autodesk had released its iDraw product into the public domain and was being sold as a new package called Graphic.  I picked up Graphic and it's been a much easier project since.  I've figured out the beauty of using layers to store content and it's allowed me to make some very rich maps without too much effort.

There are other packages out there, Affinity Designer is one that comes to mind, which probably do as much (maybe more) than Graphic.

----------


## Kellerica

I'll personally always recommend Photoshop as a mapping software. It takes a little time to get really comfortable with it, but once you do and combine it with a graphics tablet, there is no limits to what it can do for you. This is also a fantastical place for learning this stuff; I can honestly say that everything I know about using Photoshop today, and I dare say I'm getting pretty handy with it these days, I have learned from the tutorials on this Guild. I knew practically nothing about it going in.

As far as vector software goes, I for one can give a warm recommendation for Affinity Designer. I use AfDe for pretty much all my vector needs and I really like it. I kinda prefer it to Illustrator, it just is less troublesome with some essential little things.

I know a lot of people use the ProFantasy software for mapping, but I've never really used any of those, with the exception for Fractal Terrains which I own for the occasional inspiration boost. So I'm not the best person to say yay or nay on them. Many people do like them though, so I doubt they are too terrible. 

My very biased personal view on this, feel free to ignore this PS nut  :Very Happy:

----------


## Bombastus

I found a mapmaking website called inkarnate a few days ago, but it seems pretty limited.  Does anyone else have an opinion on it?

----------


## waldronate

> I found a mapmaking website called inkarnate a few days ago, but it seems pretty limited.  Does anyone else have an opinion on it?


Describing Inkarnate as "pretty limited" sums up my experience with it quite nicely.

----------


## Diamond

Yeah, Inkarnate is pretty small potatoes.  It's fantastic if you're just getting started in mapping, and it has its uses as a fast-and-dirty on the fly mapping tool, but I'm with Kell on the PS bandwagon.  You could also try GIMP, which is a free, open-source version of PS.

----------


## Mouse

I recommend making a collection of apps according to what each of them can do and your mapping needs over time.

Its more about filling your toolbox with useful tools than choosing to do everything with just one app - something that was originally pointed out to me way back in the beginning by Korash  :Wink:

----------


## PaperGriffin

I'd echo what Mouse has said; find a piece of software you enjoy using and supplement it with other software/tools. Speed will come with experience as you draw more maps and get more familiar with your chosen tools.

----------


## ladiestorm

If you can afford it, and if you have the time to learn the program, CC3+ is a good program as well.  I noticed you mentioned it in your post.  The one downside I've seen for a lot of mapping programs out there, they are based on your own ability to draw.  Well, I'm a writer, a gamer and a crafter.  One thing I am NOT, is a visual artist.  My best hand drawn maps would look crude against a third grader.  One of the things I like about CC3+, and I do use it exclusively, is that I can craft maps that make me look as if I have decent artistic talent, even though I don't.  

But if you do have artistic talent, then you can make CC3+ do some amazing things! If you want a good example, take a look at some of Mouse's work. I know that now days she uses more than just CC3+, but you should see some of the maps she came up with using only profantasy products.  They are nothing short of amazing.  Her work can also show you the versatility of CC3+.


What it really boils down to, is to check out the different programs, and figure out which one would work best for you.  I chose CC3+ because it had what I needed to produce the maps I want to produce, in a way that I couldn't do with photo shop or other programs.  Photoshop is great if you have artistic talent.  Gimp is good for that too.  I know Mark Oliva uses Fractal Mapper 8, you could ask him what that program is like.  Find the program, or programs, that best suit your skills and talents.

----------


## Phergus

I think Mouse nailed it in that you should put several tools in your toolbox as no one tool is always going to be the answer.

If you have no experience you might look at Wonderdraft.  A nice little, and inexpensive, program for creating maps.  Browse the reddit for Wonderdraft and take a look at all the maps posted by first time users of it.  https://www.reddit.com/r/wonderdraft/ 

Inkarnate is fine for what it is but realize that most of the good mapping assets and features are only available through a subscription and it is web-based.  They also automatically retain some rights to anything you produce with it.

----------


## Mark Oliva

Greetings!

Sorry I didn't see your posting earlier.

There are a couple of crucial points that you've defined too vaguely for me.  You write




> back in the day, when I've played a lot,


 and 




> After over a decade without regular playing and DMing,


but you don't make quite clear what your goal is.  Why do you want to make maps?  The things I quoted suggest that you might want to make maps to use in RPG gaming, but that's not necessarily the case.  I would give you varying answers to your base question, depending upon the purpose of your maps.

If you plan to run one or more RPG campaigns as game master, then you will need to make the best maps possible in the least time possible so that the map(s) is/are on the table at your next gaming session.

If ... like the three members of our project group ... you're publishing and all members of the group have equal responsibilities for text and cartography, you also need to complete maps quickly.  In that case, all three of us use the same software programs and we map according to a binding style book to map the maps look as though the all come from the same source.

Some guild members make maps on commission for RPGs without text responsibilities.  They have various deadlines to meet.  Some have to produce a map in a week's time.  Others have three of six months or maybe even a year.  Those with short deadlines may need different software than those with long deadlines.

There also are lot of guild members who aren't involved in RPGs and who make maps simply for the joy of making maps.   They post their work here and elsewhere and that's its end line.  Such cartographers are fortunate in a sense, because the only deadlines with which they have to be concerned are those that they set for themselves.

If I were a cartographer with long deadlines or one who simply was making maps for the joy of doing it, I would stay away from cartographic programs like MapForge (more or less successor to Dundjinni), Fractal Mapper 8 or Campaign Cartographer 3+.  I have licensed versions of and have used all three of them myself.  Many people have done magnificent work with these programs.  But I've never seen a map anywhere made with any of them that in my judgment approaches the quality of the best Photoshop and GIMP creations posted here at the guild.  If time is on your side, my recommendation is that you go with Photoshop or GIMP and add whatever other graphic programs that you prefer for secondary work.

However, neither the other members of the Vintyri Project nor I have time on our side.  We sometimes need to complete two to three maps in a day's time to drop into a campaign accessory or an RPG in decent (we hope) quality albeit below masterpiece level.  Our main goal is strategic usability rather than the beauty of the masters.  We've found that we've had no choice but to use a program like MapForge, Fractal Mapper or CC3+.  However, which of these programs is best for you depends upon your needs, usage and budget.

One issue goes across all three of these programs in their current versions:  They are 32-bit applications, making them quite dated technologically – late 20th century.  They can address the resources of a modern PC only to a limited extent.  Most frustrating is their ability to use only 4 GB RAM when your computer many have 16, 32 or 64 GB RAM.  Photoshop and the GIMP are available in 64-bit versions.

*MapForge from Battleground Games LLC:*

https://www.mapforge-software.com/

This is a relatively new program designed as a successor to the old flagship mapping program Dundjinni.  It can produce maps of near Photoshop or GIMP quality.

Advantages:  Lowest learning curve of the three.  One can almost sit down and begin to use it.  I have yet to see maps by veteran FM8 or CC3+ cartographers that match the quality of good MapForge works.

Disadvantages:  32-Bit application created with Adobe Director in the  Lingo programming language, no announced 64-bit plans.  The degree to which MapForge is useable is dependent upon the drawing tools that one has available.  Too few tools are delivered with MapForge to be able to map much of anything.  A large library of add-ons is available.  Some are free, but most are for sale.  A large percentage of them are licensed only for private use.  Anyone who wants a wide variety of maps needs to make a substantial investment or spend considerable time downloading objects and textures from the Internet and importing them into MapForge.  Users of the MapForge forum still are reporting early post-Beta problems with crashes and operational failures.  However, the program has been in full release status for only a few months.

*Campaign Cartographer 3+ from ProFantasy Software Ltd:*

https://www.profantasy.com/

The oldest of the cartographic programs, with the first version dating back to the DOS era.  CC3+ is an application that runs atop the FastCAD program, making it the only main cartographic program that also is a CAD application.  CC3+ can use both raster and vector graphics and even mix them in the same map.  It can use only vector graphics in its own vector format.  It uses PNG graphics for raster symbols or objects.  Third party PNGs can be used, but they should be brought first into CC3+ through import procedures.  The program includes the ability to apply a wide variety of special effects, greater in number than those offered by MapForge or FM8.  As delivered, CC3+ is mainly an overland mapping program.  It has only limited abilities and tools for mapping dungeons, cities, modern settings or science fiction elements.  Add-on programs are available to extend CC3+ into these areas, but they all come at their own price.  Additional add-ons are available for NPC character portraits and ISO-style maps.  More than 20,000 additional third party symbols (objects) and fill patterns (textures) are available for CC3+ in free third party add-ons that can be downloaded from the Internet.  These have their own installation programs and integrate fully into CC3+.  The program comes with a limited manual, but users can buy a very comprehensive super-manual called the Tome of Ultimate Mapping.  At an additional price one also can buy annuals, which are yearly packages of 12 sets of drawing tools, symbols, etc.

Advantages:  A user who has mastered CC3+ can make maps approaching the quality of the finest Photoshop and GIMP cartography seen here at the guild.

Disadvantages:  32-Bit application, no announced 64-bit plans.  One must make something of a monetary investment in add-ons to begin to make full use of CC3+.  One must make an even greater investment in time to master the huge learning curve of CC3+.  Many users measure that learning curve in years.  To do significant dungeon mapping, one must buy the Dungeon Designer 3 add-on.  To do significant city and village mapping, one must buy the City Designer 3 add-on.  To do significant sci-fi mapping, one must buy the Cosmographer Add-On.  Users of ProFantasy's own forum regularly complain of program crashes and failures.  Editable native format maps are portable to only a very limited degree between different computers.

*Fractal Mapper 8 and 9*

NBOS Software

https://www.nbos.com/

Please note:  At this time one either should wait before buying Fractal Mapper or buy Fractal Mapper 8 with an update in mind.  The much improved Fractal Mapper 9 is about to go into beta testing and is expected to be released sometime this year.

FM8 and FM9 can use both raster and vector graphics and even mix them in the same map.  They can use only vector graphics in their own vector format.  They can use BMP, JPG (where transparency is unneeded) and PNG (with transparency) graphics for raster symbols or objects.  Third party PNGs can be used by simply copying them into the desired folders.  FM8 includes the ability to apply a wide variety of special effects, although fewer than those offered by MapForge or CC3+.  FM9 will offer additional effects.  Only very small libraries of raster and vector graphic symbols and fills are included with FM8.  FM9 has new graphics libraries.  However, more than 20,000 additional third party symbols and fills are available for FM8 and FM9 in free add-ins that can be downloaded from the Internet.  These have their own installation programs and integrate fully into FM8 and FM9.  As delivered, FM8 and FM9 are fully equipped for overland, dungeon and city cartography.  The free third party add-ons mentioned above add the ability to make sci-fi maps.  NBOS provides two, free PDF manuals that are fully comprehensive.

Advantages:  The learning curve for FM8 and FM9 are low but not as low as with MapForge.  However, with a week's intensive use together with the manuals, one can begin mapping on a master level with FM8 and FM9.  The programs are inclusive.  No add-ons are offered or needed, making FM8 and FM9 the most inexpensive of the three programs.  FM8 is the stablest of the three programs.  There has been no repair update for 4 years, and there are no crash reports or complaints on the forums.

Disadvantages:  FM8 is a 32-bit application, however, FM9 will be offered in a 64-bit version.

----------


## Anri

Not sure if you're wanting to make battlemap or campaign scale maps, but on the battlemap side I've had pretty good luck with a combination of Bryce, Poser, and Photoshop.

I create the terrains in Bryce then export them to Poser to render them and any trees, houses, objects, etc. Everything gets composited together in Photoshop with shading/lighting and effects.

For someone just getting started, DAZ studio may be the better choice than Poser these days, but I'm pretty well entrenched in that regard.

As others have said, if you're willing to put the time in, you can do _anything_ with photoshop.

----------


## heruca

> One issue goes across all three of these programs in their current versions:  They are 32-bit applications, making them quite dated technologically – late 20th century.  They can address the resources of a modern PC only to a limited extent.  Most frustrating is their ability to use only 4 GB RAM when your computer many have 16, 32 or 64 GB RAM.


Late 20th century?! Wide support of 64-bit Windows didn't really happen until Windows 7 in 2009, and it probably took several more years before the majority of Windows systems were 64-bit.




> Disadvantages:  32-Bit Java application, no announced 64-bit plans.


Correction: MapForge is not a Java application. It's created with Adobe Director, and the programming language is called Lingo. The app doesn't require any additional frameworks be installed, as it's completely self-contained.

----------


## Mark Oliva

Greetings again!




> Late 20th century?! Wide support of 64-bit Windows didn't really happen until Windows 7 in 2009, and it probably took several more years before the majority of Windows systems were 64-bit.


A matter of viewpoint and opinion, I suppose.  I use a wide variety of programs on my PCs.  The only applications that I use with any frequency that still are 32-bit programs are MapForge, CC3+, Fractal Mapper 8 and some Nero applications.  All of my other frequently used applications are 64-bit programs and have been 64-bit programs for quite some time.  Now that we're 19 years into the 21st Century, I think it's more than time for cartographic programs to go there too.  But the coming Fractal Mapper 9 is the only one of the programs ready to make the jump.  Still ... it is a matter of opinion, of course.  My opinion is that 32-bit Windows software is antiquated, still lost in the 20th century.  We have to agree to disagree there.  But I still like you and your software, Hernan!




> Correction: MapForge is not a Java application. It's created with Adobe Director, and the programming language is called Lingo. The app doesn't require any additional frameworks be installed, as it's completely self-contained.


Thanks for the correction and apologies for the error.  Obviously one of the databases in my brain was polluted with garbage.  I'll edit and correct my original posting.

----------


## Azélor

The thing about 64 bit is that a lot of software are not optimized to work on multiple cores. It can be very hard to code depending on the kind of things you want the program to do. So you end up with a 64 bit software where 75% of the work is done by a single core. This is a serious bottleneck since we basically  reached the maximum power per core. Cpu are getting more powerful only when multitasking, not really on intensive load unless the program is optimized to spread the workload efficiently.

So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.

----------


## waldronate

> So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.


Depending on the precise workload, a 64-bit program can be slower than the equivalent 32-bit version. However, if the working sets are large, a 64-bit program can be much faster. It's even weirder on Windows, where a 32-bit program running on a 64-bit OS can handle much larger data sets than the exact same program running on a 32-bit OS (CC3+ is such a program).

----------


## Mark Oliva

> The thing about 64 bit is that a lot of software are not optimized to work on multiple cores.  <SNIP> So in some cases, the difference in performance between a 32 and 64 bit version is small.


I agree, of course, when it comes to processor performance.  However, the difference in performance between 4 GB RAM (all that's available to 32-bit applications) and 64 GB RAM (available to 64-bit applications) can be tremendous, to say the least.

----------


## Mark Oliva

> As others have said, if you're willing to put the time in, you can do _anything_ with photoshop.


I would change that to read:

_you can do_ *anything* _with photoshop or the GIMP._

And then I would agree 100%, as long as the following clause remains:




> if you're willing to put the time in


However, if time is a factor, one can make a lighted dungeon corridor with special effects with CC3+ and DD3 in substantially less time than it would take to create _exactly_ the same dungeon corridor with Photoshop or the GIMP.

----------


## Anri

> I would change that to read:
> 
> _you can do_ *anything* _with photoshop or the GIMP._
> 
> And then I would agree 100%...


I'll admit I probably haven't given the GIMP enough of a chance.
Tried it once about 10 years ago. There were a few features I use all the time that didn't seem to be there so I went back to Photoshop.
I think it was something with layer blending modes and complex brushes (scatter, dual brush, etc.)
Of course, given how long ago that was, they may both have all the same feature sets now, just in a different flavor.

So, yes, try everything (especially the free programs) to find what works for you.

Thank you for the addition, Mark.

----------


## nichendrix

> I'll personally always recommend Photoshop as a mapping software. It takes a little time to get really comfortable with it, but once you do and combine it with a graphics tablet, there is no limits to what it can do for you. This is also a fantastical place for learning this stuff; I can honestly say that everything I know about using Photoshop today, and I dare say I'm getting pretty handy with it these days, I have learned from the tutorials on this Guild. I knew practically nothing about it going in.
> 
> As far as vector software goes, I for one can give a warm recommendation for Affinity Designer. I use AfDe for pretty much all my vector needs and I really like it. I kinda prefer it to Illustrator, it just is less troublesome with some essential little things.
> 
> I know a lot of people use the ProFantasy software for mapping, but I've never really used any of those, with the exception for Fractal Terrains which I own for the occasional inspiration boost. So I'm not the best person to say yay or nay on them. Many people do like them though, so I doubt they are too terrible. 
> 
> My very biased personal view on this, feel free to ignore this PS nut


@Kellerica I have enough skill with Photoshop and GIMP to do most of my digital drawings and paintings, but I could never translate my skills to mapping, but to be really sincere, I didn't put enough time/effort on it, but in the end the few things I've tried to do on PS took me substantial time, which is my main limiting factor. I have at most 8 hours a week to make the maps for my game sessions, most weeks I would have less than that. I may be that if I get the right tutorials and invest some time to it, I can be faster using PS for mapping, but out of the box, I think it is the more time consuming of them. 





> Greetings!
> 
> Sorry I didn't see your posting earlier.
> 
> There are a couple of crucial points that you've defined too vaguely for me.  You write
> 
> 
> 
>  and 
> ...


My interest in mapping is mostly to use on my RPG games, though I've done some maps by hand as an exercise. If time wasn't a factor, I could easily use Illustrator, CorelDraw, but the process is very time demanding if I want it to look good, which is why I'm looking for a more plug and play approach since I'm playing on a weekly basis. 

The main problem I have with the dedicated mapping software I've seen is that they seem to focus on medieval fantasy settings, not the sci-fi stuff I usually play, If I have to make all textures and props and everything I use from scratch I would end up needing more time than I have available. 

By your description it seems that FM8/9 is the way to go, as it has a 64-bits version to be released soon. Unfortunatelly it is not possible to tweak with the Smart Building tool so it does sci-fi stuff as well as fantasy settings. Unfortunately I've never seen sci-fi (starship, cities, "dungeons") made in FM8, in this regard CC3+ have quite a gallery of stunning maps/deckplans available.

----------


## heruca

Nichendrix, have you seen the sci-fi content available for MapForge? Between that and the free sci-fi artwork that you can download from sites like rpgmapshare.com, you should be all set to crank out a bunch of great-looking sci-fi maps in very little time. The sci-fi genre has been largely ignored by most other mapping apps, and that's exactly why I made a point of not doing the same with MapForge.

----------


## Mark Oliva

> By your description it seems that FM8/9 is the way to go, as it has a 64-bits version to be released soon. Unfortunately it is not possible to tweak with the Smart Building tool so it does sci-fi stuff as well as fantasy settings. Unfortunately I've never seen sci-fi (starship, cities, "dungeons") made in FM8, in this regard CC3+ have quite a gallery of stunning maps/deckplans available.


Just for the record ... I'm not trying to sell any one program.  As Heruca has pointed out, Map Forge has an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

If you use FM8 or FM9 with the Fractal World Explorer (included in the FM8/FM9 package) and download and install the free CSUAC and the free Dundjinni Archives into FM8 or FM9, you'll also have an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

If you use CC3+ with Cosmographer (a separate ProFantasy add-in that must be purchased) and download and install the free CSUAC 2 and the free Dundjinni Archives into CC3+, you'll also have an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.

----------


## nichendrix

> Nichendrix, have you seen the sci-fi content available for MapForge? Between that and the free sci-fi artwork that you can download from sites like rpgmapshare.com, you should be all set to crank out a bunch of great-looking sci-fi maps in very little time. The sci-fi genre has been largely ignored by most other mapping apps, and that's exactly why I made a point of not doing the same with MapForge.


I'll take a look at it as soon as I get home. Many thanks for sharing these links. 

*EDIT:* 
I've just did a quick look on the links during my lunch break and I loved the contents of both. Do you know if these tile packs for RPG Map Share are for exclusive use with it, or I could somehow import them on FM8 or CC3+? If it cam be used by the other programs, I'll probably ending up buying most of them.

----------


## nichendrix

> Just for the record ... I'm not trying to sell any one program.  As Heruca has pointed out, Map Forge has an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.


I didn't think you were trying to sell me any of the programs, you just presented me with your view of each of them, which was exactly what I asked for. Your comments gave a lot to think about the mentioned programs. 




> If you use FM8 or FM9 with the Fractal World Explorer (included in the FM8/FM9 package) and download and install the free CSUAC and the free Dundjinni Archives into FM8 or FM9, you'll also have an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.


I've downloaded the CSUAC and DA sets for all platforms available in the Vintyri Project website. They seem to have an insane amount of texture and symbols, even tough the amount of symbols specifically for sci-fi and modern stuff seems to be rather small compared to medieval fantasy, but thaylt assimetry is part of the gaming life. 

I whish that there were more examples of sci-fi maps made with FM8, things like cities/towns, starship deckplans, battlemaps, "dungeon" maps, etc., specially maps on the better quality side, since the few I've seen were mostly on the low quality side. 





> If you use CC3+ with Cosmographer (a separate ProFantasy add-in that must be purchased) and download and install the free CSUAC 2 and the free Dundjinni Archives into CC3+, you'll also have an excellent set of tools for sci-fi type maps.


Unlike FM8 where I'm yet to see a high quality sci-fi stuff, I found that there are plenty of high quality examples of all kinds of maps made with CC3+ and Cosmographer, from cities, to buildings/dungeons, to starship deckplans, to star maps, there are examples of all kinds of things with a good portion of them on the high quality side.

In the end I'm leaning to start with FM8/FM9 and Astrosynthesis, most people I've consulted here and on other fóruns, says it has a friendly learning curve, the cost of the bundle is less than half the price I would pay for CC3+, and it has a 64-bit version on the near future. 

Even so don't think that it would take very long to get my way on CC3+'s GUI. Since I use AutoCAD since R11 for DOS version and also used FastCAD back in the day. I've started using CAD in the early 90's when I was just a kid my mother conscripted to help her in her architecture projects when the deadlines are short and the work still nedding to be done were plenty. Back when I was younger and had far more time, I would use AutoCAD to make most of my maps, then would export them to Illustrator or Corel Draw to add color and effects to the map. But nowadays I don't have that amount of time anymore. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## ladiestorm

If you don't mind, I'm going to jump in again, for a moment.  As I stated before, I use CC3+ exclusively, though I don't have every product that profantasy has to offer.  I own cc3+/cd3/dd3, with Fractal Terrains, and Perspectives.  I also have Symbol Sets 1, 2, and 3.  Plus, I have just about every third party add on that the Vyntiri Project provides.  Oh, I also have the Tome of Ultimate Mapping, as well.

I've been using cc3+ for almost three years now, and I will freely admit, that I am still learning how to use the program.  Now, don't get me wrong, I have made some pretty decent maps in cc3+, from villages, to dungeons, to regional maps.  I'm currently working on a world map that was started in factal terrains, and I have various projects going all at once.

I'm a writer, but I'm also a gamer.  I play D&D, Mech Warrior, Scion, some of the other White Wolf games, and some games that are completely thought up by our GM's.  I also run Scion, D&D, and Mech Warrior games.  I purchased cc3+ to create maps for those games.

CC3+ does have a lot of advantages, as Mark posted earlier.  And I've known Mark for all of the three years I've been using cc3+, and I know he's very knowledgeable about these programs.  I'm not refuting anything Mark has already told you, just adding something else for consideration.


Now, one of the advantages CC3+ has, is that you can draw maps from two different perspectives:  isometric, and top-down views.  But this can be a disadvantage as well.  CC3+ overland maps are drawn in isometric.  Now there is no problem there, as far as I am concerned.  Dungeons and cities/villages, are drawn in a top-down view (unless you have perspectives... which I have, but so far haven't been able to work with).  Now, using some of the overland symbols, if you are drawing a fantasy map (medieval or dark ages style), you can actually make an isometric town, village or even city.  Tonnichiwa, here at the guild, has some great examples of having done just that.

One of the disadvantages, at least for me, is that there aren't any isomectric symbol sets for modern (or futuristic) map making, unless they are a part of Cosmographer which I don't have yet (that is my next purchase).  Now for someone like me, that runs sci-fi games, like Mech Warrior, or my husband, who runs Star Trek games... that's problematic when we want to make world or regional maps of a sci-fi nature.  There are some modern symbols for city map making, and there are some symbols that will work with either, but even for cd3, there aren't as many things to work in a modern setting as there is for fantasy.  CC3+ has rastor symbols, but not vector ones.  I don't use rastor symbols much, I prefer vector.


Now, even with this disadvantage, there is also an advantage, in the fact that if you can figure out how to do it, you can create your own symbols for cc3+.  Which means you _could_ make sky scrapers, and monuments, and the like for sci-fi settings.  But again, that takes time.  I haven't been able to do so at this time, but it is something to think about.

----------


## heruca

> Do you know if these tile packs for RPG Map Share are for exclusive use with it, or I could somehow import them on FM8 or CC3+? If it cam be used by the other programs, I'll probably ending up buying most of them.


All the content on rpgmapshare is free to download; there's nothing to buy. The files are typically in PNG format, so they can be used with most mapping apps or image editors.

----------


## nichendrix

> All the content on rpgmapshare is free to download; there's nothing to buy. The files are typically in PNG format, so they can be used with most mapping apps or image editors.


The content of rpgmapshare I understood that it is generic and not application dependant. 

What I really wanted to know is if the content for MapForge (the sci-fi packs on the first link) can also be used in FM8 or CC3+ in any form, because in their entries it stated on their description that they only work for MapForge.

Theare some very interesting tiles there that I can totally see me using a lot on my maps. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## Mark Oliva

> Now, one of the advantages CC3+ has, is that you can draw maps from two different perspectives:  isometric, and top-down views.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> Now, even with this disadvantage, there is also an advantage, in the fact that if you can figure out how to do it, you can create your own symbols for cc3+.  Which means you _could_ make sky scrapers, and monuments, and the like for sci-fi settings.  But again, that takes time.  I haven't been able to do so at this time, but it is something to think about.


Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with anything that Storm has said, but one should point out that the things mentioned above are by no means exclusive to CC3+,  They apply just as well to MapForge and Fractal Mapper 8.  All three programs use PNG graphics as symbols, so if you acquire a PNG symbol or make one, you could use it in any of the three programs.  FM8 also includes ISO symbols for overland mapping in both its PNG and vector symbol sets.  That doesn't apply directly to MapForge, because it works with add-in graphic packages rather than individual PNG symbols, however, one can import individual PNG symbols into MapForge.




> One of the disadvantages, at least for me, is that there aren't any isomectric symbol sets for modern (or futuristic) map making, unless they are a part of Cosmographer


There aren't any in Cosmographer either or anywhere else including RPGMapShare, as far as I know.  I'm pretty familiar with what's on the RPGMapShare site, and I have Cosmographer.  Cosmographer has mostly symbols for furnishing the interiors of spaceships and space stations in deckplan mode.  It has planets and similar space objects in starmap mode.  It has geographic symbolry and hexagon landscape fill stamp symbols in overland mode.

ProFantasy also has issued a few annuals with sci-fi tools, but I've never seen them, so I can't comment upon them.

The space/sci-fi part of the Dundjinni Archives, which are free in both CC3+ and FM8 versions and can be imported into MapForge, also has symbols for furnishing space ships and space stations in deckplan mode along with personal equipment and creatures.  It has planets and a wide variety of spaceships in starmap mode.  It has nothing in overland mode.

The Symbol Set 3 add-on for CC3+ includes modern symbols typical for the 20th Century.  Things like computers already are outdated for the 21st Century.

For the record:  I have licensed installations of MapForge with quite a few add-ons, Fractal Mapper 8 and CC3+ with the eight main add-ons, including Cosmographer and Symbol Set 3.  I have mapping experience with all of them.




> I whish that there were more examples of sci-fi maps made with FM8, things like cities/towns, starship deckplans, battlemaps, "dungeon" maps, etc., specially maps on the better quality side, since the few I've seen were mostly on the low quality side.  
> Unlike FM8 where I'm yet to see a high quality sci-fi stuff, I found that there are plenty of high quality examples of all kinds of maps made with CC3+ and Cosmographer, from cities, to buildings/dungeons, to starship deckplans, to star maps, there are examples of all kinds of things with a good portion of them on the high quality side.


I find that strange too.  FM8 is produced by NBOS Software.  It's top-selling program is AstroSynthesis, which can work together with FM8.  AS/FM8 users produce a lot of "how to" queries, but if they post their maps anywhere in the Internet, I have no idea where that is.

----------


## heruca

> What I really wanted to know is if the content for MapForge (the sci-fi packs on the first link) can also be used in FM8 or CC3+ in any form, because in their entries it stated on their description that they only work for MapForge.


The Add-On format is exclusive to MapForge, but much of the content is available elsewhere, if you really need to use it in other apps. For example, you could buy the sci-fi tiles direct from Pwork Wargames, and they'll be delivered as PDFs. Use a utility to strip the images from the PDF, resize them to the resolution you need, and organize the resulting files into easy-to-navigate folders to keep everything organized.

Another example: The content from Maker Games can be purchased on the Roll20 Marketplace as downloadable PNGs.

----------


## nichendrix

> I find that strange too.  FM8 is produced by NBOS Software.  It's top-selling program is AstroSynthesis, which can work together with FM8.  AS/FM8 users produce a lot of "how to" queries, but if they post their maps anywhere in the Internet, I have no idea where that is.


Isn't that strange? I've been mining for examples for some months, but I've only found three examples of starship deckplans and they were very basic and on the not pretty at all side. 

I spent a some time with the trial version of AstroSynthesis and couldn't find any good tutorials for beginners, only after a time asking around in the official community I've found out that there is a PDF manual in the program folder, but there's no link or mentiob to it in the program's GUI. 

As far as I could use it during the 14 days trial, I've found that the star map generation is rather interesting, though it lacks in options for the maps, for instance you can only generate top, side and front views, I couldn't find a isometric view, that would be nice to later process in PS to look like an holo-message.

I whish I could find modern and sci-fi buildings to add to my city maps, but it seems that I'll have to make them all from scratch, which would take a long time to finish enough buildings that would be feasible for use on sci-fi town/city maps. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## nichendrix

> Another example: The content from Maker Games can be purchased on the Roll20 Marketplace as downloadable PNGs.


Are all Roll20 content sold as download able png? 

If so it would be great, because most of the sci-fi content on MapForge is also available for Roll20. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## heruca

No, not all, but those that _do_ offer that option are clearly marked as such on the product page.

----------


## nichendrix

> If you don't mind, I'm going to jump in again, for a moment.  As I stated before, I use CC3+ exclusively, though I don't have every product that profantasy has to offer.  I own cc3+/cd3/dd3, with Fractal Terrains, and Perspectives.  I also have Symbol Sets 1, 2, and 3.  Plus, I have just about every third party add on that the Vyntiri Project provides.  Oh, I also have the Tome of Ultimate Mapping, as well.
> 
> I've been using cc3+ for almost three years now, and I will freely admit, that I am still learning how to use the program.  Now, don't get me wrong, I have made some pretty decent maps in cc3+, from villages, to dungeons, to regional maps.  I'm currently working on a world map that was started in factal terrains, and I have various projects going all at once.
> 
> I'm a writer, but I'm also a gamer.  I play D&D, Mech Warrior, Scion, some of the other White Wolf games, and some games that are completely thought up by our GM's.  I also run Scion, D&D, and Mech Warrior games.  I purchased cc3+ to create maps for those games.
> 
> CC3+ does have a lot of advantages, as Mark posted earlier.  And I've known Mark for all of the three years I've been using cc3+, and I know he's very knowledgeable about these programs.  I'm not refuting anything Mark has already told you, just adding something else for consideration.
> 
> 
> ...


It seems that for sci-fi stuff, CC3+ is as limited as MapForge and FM8 in terms of ready to use content. 

If it CC3+CD could generate sci-fi or futuristic cities it would be the most interesting thing to me, but you said they are also geared towards fantasy settings. 

One thing I've noticed is that it takes around $150 to have all the add-ons to really make sci-fi stuff with CC3+. MapForge is way cheaper, but with all the add-ons it seems it falls on the same price range as CC3+. On the other hand, FM8+AS costs only $50 bucks, which is odd given it is 1/3rd of its competitors costs, or am I missing something? 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## nichendrix

> No, not all, but those that _do_ offer that option are clearly marked as such on the product page.


Though I have a Roll20 account, I've never used it, I would take a look there if I find something interesting that is also offered as downloadable png.

Regarding buying PKwork Wargame PDF tiles, I have Adobe Acrobat Pro, so if the PDF are editable I could just copy, paste and save them on png, so that would be no problem. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## ladiestorm

I'm afraid I don't know as much about mapforge or FM8 or 9.  The one thing I can tell you about cc3+ is that you don't _have_ to get each specific product to be able to produce good maps.  I started with just the basic combo pack: cc3+/cd3/dd3.  That, combined with the CSUAC2, the Dundjinni Archives, and Bogie's Mapping objects helps me produce 95% of the maps I make.  And if you look at my gallery, you will see a couple of 'modern' maps there, such as my town of DunHaven, and my underground Sybco Lab.  So the possibility is there, to produce modern style maps, _as long as_ you aren't trying to build a modern world.  If you want to build a modern or futuristic world, you will probably need Cosmographer, and probably SS3 (symbol set 3).  Perspectives might be able to help you create your own symbols for modern, or futuristic worlds, cities, dungeons, what ever you might need.

Also, Profantasy does offer 'bundle packs' for those that don't want to spend that kind of money all at once.  Also, profantasy is always coming out with new content for their programs, in the form of the annuals.  For those, you buy a yearly subscription, and something new comes out each month.  So just because they don't have anything now, doesn't mean they won't in the future.

----------


## waldronate

> sci-fi or futuristic cities


I see a lot of discussion about this and I'm curious what this sort of thing would look like. Does anyone have some good examples of maps using this sort of style? I don't care whether it was done with some pre-packaged software or drawn freehand.

----------


## Azélor

There aren't a lot of sci fi city maps period.

----------


## Mark Oliva

> .I whish I could find modern and sci-fi buildings to add to my city maps, but it seems that I'll have to make them all from scratch, which would take a long time to finish enough buildings that would be feasible for use on sci-fi town/city maps.


You have my sympathy, but there's not much more that I can offer on that point.




> If you want to build a modern or futuristic world, you will probably need Cosmographer, and probably SS3 (symbol set 3).


Symbol Set 3 won't do much for you on the futuristic side.  It's modern in the sense of a little while before the present, mirroring the late 20th century but not yet into the 21st.

----------


## nichendrix

> I see a lot of discussion about this and I'm curious what this sort of thing would look like. Does anyone have some good examples of maps using this sort of style? I don't care whether it was done with some pre-packaged software or drawn freehand.


It's strange that few share their work on this subject. The few I've seen are for Star Wars, usualy backwater towns like Mos Eisley, Mos Espa, etc.

For example, this is the map of Mos Shuuta that comes with FFG's SW EotE Beginner's Game:
[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHIkIYFV0VTi3e3tInBWQ2sxiNzXa4s  7hF6IbbSM95m6M49ae2RQ
[/IMG]

This is a Map made by Ruakar depicting a section of Lothal capital city from Star Wars Rebels. :


A more complete map of the Lothal's capital city. 


Another city made by Ruakar, this time from some backwater place like Tatooine:


Another one by Ruakar, but this time a more developed multiple level city:


I know a few other Star Wars forum users that make city maps, but they are only a small portion of them actually share their maps with the community and a good deal of them only do maps on paid requests, so they usualy don't share too much, just enough to wet potential customer's appetite. 

It is a pity that I don't know what kind of code is used in things like Smart Building Tool in FM8 or its equivalent in City Designer for CC3+. If I could see their code, I could understand it and develop a similar code for sci-fi setting like Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.

----------


## Mark Oliva

> It is a pity that I don't know what kind of code is used in fings like Smart Building too on FM8 or on City Designer for CC3+. If I could see their code, I could understand it and develop a similar code for sci-fi setting like Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.


???#!!?

What is a _fing_?  And what kind of code do you mean?  And what is a Smart Building?

Sorry.  You really lost me here.

I used to get complimented on my programming and upon my work as a programming teacher before I retired, so I assume I wasn't all that bad.  Of course, I did only data base programming, not graphical stuff.  Still... Nonetheless ...

----------


## nichendrix

> ???#!!?
> 
> What is a _fing_?  And what kind of code do you mean?  And what is a Smart Building?
> 
> Sorry.  You really lost me here.


It was supposed to be things.

It's one of the issues of having SwiftKey configured to work on multiple languages, it takes just a random wrong swipe with your thumb to inadvertently change which language the spellchecker will use. 





> I used to get complimented on my programming and upon my work as a programming teacher before I retired, so I assume I wasn't all that bad.  Of course, I did only data base programming, not graphical stuff.  Still... Nonetheless ...


Part of my daily work is to develop applications and simulations so my programming skills are still sharp. I'm also used to develop add-ons, plug-ins and tools for AutoCAD/Revit, so I know more or less how to handle creating a new tool to perform some desirable graphical output. 

What I don't know is how these mapping software handle these things. Since I don't know how the software works, I can't develop a script to do/automate it.

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## nichendrix

After a lot of consideration I've decided to give a chance to the combo FM8+AS3. If I don't like it, I'll try MapForge or CC3+. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## Mark Oliva

> It was supposed to be things.


OK.  That clears that up!




> What I don't know is how these mapping software handle these things. Since I don't know how the software works, I can't develop a script to do/automate it.


I'm not sure want you want to automate.  There are drawing tools in CC3+ that are quite easy to make.  They don't involve coding.  There's a PDF book by Remy Monsen in Norway (written in English) that gives complete instruction in how to do this and almost anything else that one can do with CC3+.  You can buy it from ProFantasy.  The macro programming language also is included.

Any kind of tool that one would use in FM8 already is built in, as far as my imagination can conceive of things.  If you have some ideas in mind for specific tools, tell me what you need to know.  (I know FM8 pretty thoroughly.  I wrote one of the two manuals for it.)

If you want to learn the secrets of making MapForgre add-ons, I'm afraid you'll have to pry those secrets out of Heruca.




> After a lot of consideration I've decided to give a chance to the combo FM8+AS3. If I don't like it, I'll try MapForge or CC3+.


That route certainly should bring you to the best possible result.

----------


## nichendrix

> I'm not sure want you want to automate. There are drawing tools in CC3+ that are quite easy to make.  They don't involve coding.  There's a PDF book by Remy Monsen in Norway (written in English) that gives complete instruction in how to do this and almost anything else that one can do with CC3+.  You can buy it from ProFantasy.  The macro programming language also is included.


I was thinking about something very similar to Smart Building Tool on FM8, but making random sci-fi buildings for city maps. 

Obviously the easiest way would use the AutoCAD approach and create a library of buildings and adding it randomly on the map by hand, but this way, but what I've found interesting in the Smart Building Tool was that it implement random variations on the buildings and sometimes is even able adapt its design to the designated boundaries. 

In the end my idea is to implement random variation of the geometry of the buildings and the elements on the rooftops and avoid the "feeling" that it is just a few buildings that were cut'n'pasted gazillion times over. 

In the NBOS forum, @Ed_NBOS suggested that flat roofed buildings could be easily created with Polypath Tool, I didn't have time to test it.




> Any kind of tool that one would use in FM8 already is built in, as far as my imagination can conceive of things.  If you have some ideas in mind for specific tools, tell me what you need to know.  (I know FM8 pretty thoroughly.  I wrote one of the two manuals for it.)


If I were doing medieval fantasy maps I could certainly agree that FM8 and CC3+ probably have far more tools than anyone could possibly hope using. 

But if you're mapping anything not related to medieval fantasy, things are not easy. Not only the programs offer less tools, but a some of the most interesting tools are not usable on other contexts. 

Even looking at the stuff running around the Internet, be it paid or free, you'll find that there aren't that much to look for and you'll notice that most of the stuff you find most of then are duplicated instance of the Dubdjini Archive content. 

I know a few people doing beautiful sci-fi maps and deckplans, most of them do most of the art from scratch, using very few things from internet content. Unfortunately what they all have in common is that they have far more available free time for doing their maps and more artistic skills than me. 

But let me just dig into FM8 for a few months and see how hard is to make sci-fi stuff with it. 




> That route certainly should bring you to the best possible result.


I liked AS3 a lot, despite sometimes it being a little quirky, I've even started to use it to map/log my astronomical observation.

FM8 seems to be very straight forward, but I didn't dig deeply into it, but I already noticed the immense assimetry between the amount of medieval fantasy content compared to content for other types of settings.

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## waldronate

My question about futuristic city maps was an attempt to see if folks could describe a "futuristic city" or give examples of it. When I look for "futuristic city" images online, some folks gravitate towards "blue-and-white asymmetric utopia towers", others are more into "anything rounded and with lots of domes", others to go with the black-and-brown boxy Blade Runner dystopia, some are solidly in the "mirrored and metallic everything", while some folks call any cityscape that's a mish-mash of different time periods with a giant box growing out of the middle "futuristic". There is a good bit of "futuristic city" art, but not a whole lot of maps. Ah well. I'll keep looking.

----------


## nichendrix

> My question about futuristic city maps was an attempt to see if folks could describe a "futuristic city" or give examples of it. When I look for "futuristic city" images online, some folks gravitate towards "blue-and-white asymmetric utopia towers", others are more into "anything rounded and with lots of domes", others to go with the black-and-brown boxy Blade Runner dystopia, some are solidly in the "mirrored and metallic everything", while some folks call any cityscape that's a mish-mash of different time periods with a giant box growing out of the middle "futuristic". There is a good bit of "futuristic city" art, but not a whole lot of maps. Ah well. I'll keep looking.


Sincerely, I've never seem a Futuristic City maps aside from the works of a few guys scattered around the Star Wars RPG communities who from time to time do some city mapping. Outside this small niche I've never seem any maps.

On the what's a futuristic city look like, the SW Universe is probably the best place to look at it, since there are all the styles you mention plus some other possible designs. Other sci-fi settings usualky concentrate on way smaller scenery. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## Azélor

I think the sheer size and complexity (infrastructures) of futuristic cities is the main reason why there aren't that many maps. 

Think about it. A 10 000 people city is quite big for a classic medieval fantasy setting but that's about 1000 building (give or take). 
For a modern of futuristic setting, 10 000 people just a common town/outpost.
Imagine you wanted to map a modern city like Paris or New York, we're talking about millions of people, thousand and thousand of buildings...
At this point most people would rather have an abstract representation of the city than individual buildings. 

You could still map only portion of the city if that counts.

----------


## nichendrix

> I think the sheer size and complexity (infrastructures) of futuristic cities is the main reason why there aren't that many maps. 
> 
> Think about it. A 10 000 people city is quite big for a classic medieval fantasy setting but that's about 1000 building (give or take). 
> For a modern of futuristic setting, 10 000 people just a common town/outpost.
> Imagine you wanted to map a modern city like Paris or New York, we're talking about millions of people, thousand and thousand of buildings...
> At this point most people would rather have an abstract representation of the city than individual buildings. 
> 
> You could still map only portion of the city if that counts.


If you're mapping a place with high population density you're right. But most sci-fi stuff don't usually happens in this kind of place. 

If you look at Star Trek, Star Wars and so on, the average population of most planets is on the range from a few hundred thousand to a few million inhabitants on average for the whole planet, most planet capitals don't go over 10,000-100,000 inhabitants. 

For example in Star Wars galaxy, most planets' populations would fall between Tatooine (Population:80,000) in the backwater nearly untamed frontier planet and Naboo (Population: 4.5 billion) the average affluent higher population density planet. 

Only about 5% of the galaxy's planets have with population of over 1 billion inhabitants with most planets' population ranging between 2 million to 200 million inhabitants. In this kind of low population density environment each planet would have only handful of cities with population over 100,000 inhabitants.

Certainly in SW Galaxy there are a few off the charts planets like Coruscant with its trillions of inhabitants and the whole surface covered with skyscrapers thousands of stories high that are actually so tall that it's star's light never touches its surface, but they are the exception among the exceptions. 

Most RPG adventures would take place on these ultra densely populated places, so mapping them isn't really an issue. And in the few occasions where mapping this kind of place is necessary, you would just map the area of interest, not the whole planet. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## johnvanvliet

for whole planets you can also use Blender ,as i do.



a very small example ( 2048x1024 px )
texture and HeightMap 
 


and Blender is opensource so it is FREE

----------


## nichendrix

> for whole planets you can also use Blender ,as i do.
> 
> 
> 
> a very small example ( 2048x1024 px )
> texture and HeightMap 
>  
> 
> 
> and Blender is opensource so it is FREE


I tend to think that using Blender, 3DS Max or Maya to make RPG maps that would be used once or twice on campaign is kind of using a bazooka to kill a fly. In the end I ended up buying FM8 and AstroSynthesis 3, which could generate the same kind of output with just a few clicks, which is handy, since entire world maps would be just the texture of surface with markers for a few dozen locations of interest, at least for RPG purpose. 

Enviado de meu Moto G (5) Plus usando o Tapatalk

----------


## Naima

What is FM8?

----------


## Mark Oliva

Fractal Mapper 8 from NBOS Software:

http://www.nbos.com

----------


## Mark Oliva

When I saw your samples farther above, my first reaction was that I probably could do most of that in FM8 and maybe in CC3+ too, _without Cosmographer_.  With CC3+, I'm not quite certain (I haven't been into the necessary mapping areas of CC3+), but with FM8, no problem, providing the following free add-ins have been installed:

CSUAC
Dundjinni Archives
Vintyri Cartographoic Collection

The sample map below uses objects from all three add-ins.

Seeing that you're looking at making your first shot with FM8 + AS, the CC3+ issue isn't pressing at the moment.

I spent about half an hour this morning seeing what the possibilities are, because I've never tried to make the kind of map you showed us before.

I started with the map of the Mos-Eisley-type settlement, duplicating the basic terrain and road layout.  I didn't like the blandness of the original, so I chose more colorful sand textures.  But that's not necessary:



Anyone who wants to open this map in FM8 to see how things were made can download the original file here:

https://www.vintyri.org/downloads/sample_sci_fi.zip

After that, I tried to duplicate some elements of the _"Mos Eisley"_ map on the left hand side of the test map.  The original was hand-drawn and somewhat irregular in shape, so my duplicate also is a bit irregular.  If this was a serious map rather than a test map, I would not have left things that way.  In the rest of the map, I tried to create things in somewhat of the style used in other samples that you showed.

*Please understand* that this is a quick-and-dirty test to determine what can be done with FM8 (and probably also with CC3+) rather than a demonstration of what FM8 can do.  If I had been making a serious map, things would have looked much better.  There would be much more detail, special effects would be applied, etc. Shadowing is the only special effect in this map.

Also ... and maybe this is a bit of advice too ... I *would not* make new buildings on the spot in the map but rather make them in a separate FM8 session, memorize them as symbols and then take them from the symbol catalog into the map.  That would take a minute's more time than making the buildings directly in the map, and gives you the advantage of being able to use the building symbol in other maps.

A further advantage: If you switch later to CC3+, you can import all of the homemade symbols that you created with FM8 directly into CC3+.

How does one do that?

When one starts with FM8, I strongly urge new users to work their way through the two (free) FM8 PDF manuals.  The first or basic manual concentrates upon vector topics.  The second manual then goes on to raster (bitmap) cartography.  However, the lessons learned in the first tutorial are absolutely necessary to understand the second, advanced manual.

Plan on spending about a week in your free time working your way through the two manuals.  Once you've done that, you'll be an FM8 master mapper.  The program has a mild and easy learning curve.

You can download the first, basic manual here:

https://www.nbos.com/nox/index.php?action=1001&id=125

The second, advanced raster mapping manual is here:

https://www.vintyri.org/downloads/pdftu01.zip

Note that new versions of both manuals will be released for the pending 64-bit version of FM9.

----------


## nichendrix

> When I saw your samples farther above, my first reaction was that I probably could do most of that in FM8 and maybe in CC3+ too, _without Cosmographer_.  With CC3+, I'm not quite certain (I haven't been into the necessary mapping areas of CC3+), but with FM8, no problem, providing the following free add-ins have been installed:
> 
> CSUAC
> Dundjinni Archives
> Vintyri Cartographoic Collection
> 
> The sample map below uses objects from all three add-ins.


I've downloaded all of these add-ins just before buying FM8+AS and installed them after I've got the programs installed, so using them should not be an issue. One thing I've noticed is that when looking into the symbols library in FM8, there's no way to know the name of the symbol, and this can sometimes be confusing if you don't know what the symbol represents.




> Seeing that you're looking at making your first shot with FM8 + AS, the CC3+ issue isn't pressing at the moment.
> 
> I spent about half an hour this morning seeing what the possibilities are, because I've never tried to make the kind of map you showed us before.
> 
> I started with the map of the Mos-Eisley-type settlement, duplicating the basic terrain and road layout.  I didn't like the blandness of the original, so I chose more colorful sand textures.  But that's not necessary:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who wants to open this map in FM8 to see how things were made can download the original file here:
> ...


I've got the idea, this weekend I'll give it a try and make some attempts on map making in FM8, probably I'll try to make a starship deckplan first.
CC3+ and MapForge are my escape route if things don't work out with FM8+AS3




> Also ... and maybe this is a bit of advice too ... I *would not* make new buildings on the spot in the map but rather make them in a separate FM8 session, memorize them as symbols and then take them from the symbol catalog into the map.  That would take a minute's more time than making the buildings directly in the map, and gives you the advantage of being able to use the building symbol in other maps.


It is just like AutoCAD, you make a symbol on a file, transform and save it as block, then you either use the symbol from a directory or add it to your block library in order to pick it directly from the menu.




> Plan on spending about a week in your free time working your way through the two manuals.  Once you've done that, you'll be an FM8 master mapper.  The program has a mild and easy learning curve.
> 
> You can download the first, basic manual here:
> 
> https://www.nbos.com/nox/index.php?action=1001&id=125
> 
> The second, advanced raster mapping manual is here:
> 
> https://www.vintyri.org/downloads/pdftu01.zip
> ...


I've already went through most of the first manual. In the weekend I'll pick the second manual and give it a try.

I hope that anyone that bought FM8 this year get either a free upgrade to FM9 or at least a very good discount on the upgrade's price. Also I really hope it updates abd expands its sci-fi symbols library, but this bit last nit is probably just wishful thinking. I also hope that when they release AS4, they make some good tutorial for beginners, since  we have only the program's manual and a sketch of tutorial for advanced users, nothing for the novice.

By the way, thanks for your answers, you and the other folks here were very kind in sharing your thoughts on the problem I was facing.

----------


## Mark Oliva

> One thing I've noticed is that when looking into the symbols library in FM8, there's no way to know the name of the symbol, and this can sometimes be confusing if you don't know what the symbol represents.


Unfortunately, you're right.  However, I understand that this will be fixed in FM9.  What I do ... and it is a nuisance but helps and speeds things up ... is open the symbols folder in the Windows Explorer, where I can see both the symbol names and an enlarged view of the symbols.  But it is cumbersome.  Once you have a symbol on the map, you can click it with the right mouse key, and that will show the path and file name.




> I really hope it updates abd expands its sci-fi symbols library, but this bit last nit is probably just wishful thinking. I also hope that when they release AS4, they make some good tutorial for beginners, since  we have only the program's manual and a sketch of tutorial for advanced users, nothing for the novice.


It would be good if you went on to the NBOS forum for FM8 and make these suggestions.  Ed Diana at NBOS is a very responsive person who places a lot of value on customer thinking:

https://www.nbos.com

or send him an E-Mail at:

support2@nbos.com

----------


## heruca

There's a very nice sci-fi city map preview posted here. I'd love to see loads more like this, and for some artist to create stampable images to create these sorts of maps.

----------


## nichendrix

> There's a very nice sci-fi city map preview posted here. I'd love to see loads more like this, and for some artist to create stampable images to create these sorts of maps.


This type of Map is reminiscent of the style used on a number of Shadowrun adventure maps from late 90's and early 2000's, and I liked those maps a lot.

----------

