# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Building/Structure Mapping >  Castle Amber - Chapel

## Steel General

OK, this is my first attempt at a building and is in response to the thread here. 

This is only 'bare bones', and is missing the Choir Loft, based on what I could gleam from the map provided. I don't have a copy of this module, so I have no idea what would be in any of the rooms.

If needed I can post versions without the grid and room numbers.

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## Gandwarf

It's an ok map, I like the centerpiece a lot.
It's just a bit empty (but as you said yourself you don't know what you should put in the rooms) and flat. I like 3D maps more, so some shadows, bevels, etc.

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## Jkaen

I agree it looks like you need more information before you can really do it justice, for example can you put benches down the length of the chapel? of light sources on the wall?

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## Steel General

Well luckily I found a copy of the module that I was able to download, so I should be able to fill in some more of the details. From the little I glanced through it, it appears like I'll need to change some of what I have already.

Not quite sure how I should do shadows and beveling, I guess a lot of that will depend on how the lighting sources are arranged.

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## Jkaen

Look forward to seeing how you approach this, I am still to make the leap indoors.

What software are you using for all this?

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## Steel General

Pretty significant update here after getting a hold of a "HackMaster"-ized version of the module.

New floor; new carpet; added pews; added cots in Monk cells; added concealed door; added 'shadows' to the walls (not perfect, but definitely gives them some depth); replaced the existing windows with larger 'stained-glass' ones.

@JKaen - I'm using Photoshop. The majority of the objects, have been downloaded from the Dundjinni forums.

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## Jkaen

Looks better now its not empty, but to be honest I prefered the original floor. I think the new one is a bit to intricate and 'busy' for the size of chamber you are filling

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## Gandwarf

This is starting to look good, nice work  :Smile: 
The blue carpet is really nice!

I still miss the 3D aspect though. The walls look too flat, especially with those stained glass windows. I would give the walls a bevel, some shadowing, etc. But hey, I like 3D  :Razz: 

What's that C in the centerpiece? I know the S stands for concealed door/passage.

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## Steel General

I actually like the original floor too, but I'm trying to be true to the module and it says a wood parquet floor, so that's what I went with.

S- Secret Door, C - Concealed door - Its actually underneath the altar (which is moveable)

Yeah, the walls still need some work, all I did was put an inner shadow on them so far.

Since the altar I decided to use has a blueish cast to it, I changed the original carpet I had for the blue. I added the large round rug as my personal take/twist to the decor.

Personally I think the scale is a bit ridiculous, but I'm just going by the map. Personally, I'd make it 1 square = 5' but again, trying to stay true to the module.

Thanks for the comments guys.

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## Crovack

It looks amazing already and I appreciate you staying true to the module.
I may end up running it as 1 square = 5' and the way it's designed now it'll be easy to do so.

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## Torq

It may just be my eyes SG but I think your drop shadows are in the wrong places. I get the impression that the floors are higher than the walls. It looks to me as if the floors are projecting shadows onto the walls, rather than vice versa. If you're hunting for parque textures, here's another one.

Torq

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## Steel General

Thanks for the texture Torq. 

Yeah, I'm really struggling with the whole floor/wall thing. I'll have to double-check to make sure I didn't accidentally put a shadow on the floor.

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## Steel General

OK, I think I've got the Chapel pretty much wrapped up, I tweaked the shadows, etc. on the walls and switched the floor over to the texture Torq provided. Had to alter the orientation of the choir loft to fit it on the map.

I've made some progress on the Indoor Forest - still needs the actual forest but all of the othe parts are there.

I've uploaded 2 versions of each, with and without the grid.

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## Torq

I think its a big improvement SG. You seem to have sorted out the shadow issue. What about some shadow under the items resting on the floor to create more definition, particularly where its brown furniture on a brown floor.

Torq

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## jfrazierjr

Ummm are there lights outside each window at night?  if not, the windows would not show onto the inside both from the north and south.  

Other than that, my quick look shows it as quite nice.

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## Gandwarf

The chapel looks great, Steelgeneral. Nice job! I like the finishing, for example the walls seeming more 3D  :Razz: 

The outdoor garden looks to me a bit unnatural right now, lots of stuff seems to be aligned the same way. Like those pits. It looks a bit weird, but I guess you wanted to align them to the grid?

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## Steel General

@JFJr - Thanks... and you are absolutely correct, gonna have to double check the module for the light sources. I may just get rid of the reflection entirely.

@Gandwarf - Thanks...as I noted earlier I'm trying to stay as true to the module as possible. The pits do indeed align with the grid. But that is also why I posted a version with out it. I'm not really happy with the way the pits look, but it was all I had at the time.

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## Ascension

This looks really nice SG.  Being a stained glass artist my eyes went straight to those parts and other than the same window being used it looks pretty good.  I know there are not too many options so that's all cool though.  As far as the reflection on the floor, don't make it so accurate, blur it out a bunch...usually we just see color splotches.

As far as lighting goes there's 2 types of light I deal with...transmitted light (light that comes through) and reflected light (light that bounces off) and whichever light source is stronger will dominate (which is why stained glass doesn't look good from the outside the sun bounces off but on the inside the weaker lights there allow the sun's light to pass through).  There are 3 types of glass we use opaque (no light passes through so we use that in mosaics), translucent or cathedral (all light passes through no matter the color), and opalescent (light glows more than bounces off or passes through so we use these most often in lamps and in Tiffany style windows).  This last method wasn't even developed until the 19th century so we can throw that out and the first one is useless in windows so that leaves cathedral glass.  In the northern hemisphere, windows that face the south get the strongest light and windows on the north get the weakest light.  Now if this is a night time scene then it would all depend on moonlight and torches vs. interior lighting.  If there are no torches on the outside then these lil reflections would be virtually unseen unless all of the torches were off and then the whole reflection would be more white-ish...exactly as you have here but more blurred out.

So now that the class is over  :Smile:  (sorry for rambling) I like it alot.

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## Steel General

@Ascension - Thanks for the info about the Stained Glass, I'll try to keep that in mind if I ever use these again.

OK, here are the latest updates for these;

*Chapel (complete):*
1) Not being able to identify specific light-sources for this area I went ahead and deleted the reflection of the stain glass windows.
2) Added shadows to pews and other items that were missing them

*Indoor Forest (complete):*
1) Not entirely happy with the forests/tree cover. But I just don't have the patience to place each tree individually. I intentionally lowered the opacity on the trees so you can see where the pits and thorn barriers are located.

*West Wing(WIP):* - This is in its early stages tho a couple of the rooms are complete. The slightly transparent area in the main hallway is a crosswalk suspended above the floor.

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## Gandwarf

Congrats on the indoor garden, it looks very pretty. Now that the traps are more concealed by bushes and grass I no longer have any problem with them. 

Hat's off to you!

The new area is already shaping up very nicely. One thing that stands out for me is the lower room in the top left corner - the wall isn't straight like the walls in all the other rooms. Is that intentional? I think it's a bit weird. But the room is still empty of course...

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## Steel General

> One thing that stands out for me is the lower room in the top left corner - the wall isn't straight like the walls in all the other rooms. Is that intentional? I think it's a bit weird. But the room is still empty of course...


@Gandwarf - Thanks for your comments

Nope you are correct, I had some trouble with the walls, drew them in when it was way to far zoomed out, so some of the lines area little off. I need to go back and fix them.

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## Crovack

Shaping up beautifuly thus far.  Way beyond anything I'd anticipated.

I was wondering if it would be reasonable to render out basicly two versions, a "DM" and a "player" version of the maps.  The player version would obviously just lack the secret doors, traps, room numbers, etc.  In fact, you don't even need to make a 'DM' verison as I can always just use the module's map for reference anyway.

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## Steel General

> Shaping up beautifuly thus far.  Way beyond anything I'd anticipated.
> 
> I was wondering if it would be reasonable to render out basicly two versions, a "DM" and a "player" version of the maps.  The player version would obviously just lack the secret doors, traps, room numbers, etc.  In fact, you don't even need to make a 'DM' verison as I can always just use the module's map for reference anyway.


Thanks... I can definitely render one of each without the secret doors, etc.
Would you want the pits in the Indoor Garden removed as well?

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## Crovack

> Thanks... I can definitely render one of each without the secret doors, etc.
> Would you want the pits in the Indoor Garden removed as well?


Yes please.

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## xv43

These look incredible.

Personally, I think the stained glass window reflection is really nifty and I'd be inclined to keep it purely for that reason, but I don't have to care about accuracy or anything like that... I'd never even though about doing something like, did you just take the image and make it opaque?

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## Steel General

@Crovack - Will do...I didn't really like the ones I had used anyway.  :Smile: 

@xv43 - Thanks very much. Nope I didn't do anything, I downloaded the Stained Glass window from the Dundjinni forums, the reflection was built into the original.

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## Steel General

OK, here's today's updates;

*West Wing* - These is pretty much complete, I may go back and add some things to the 'kitchen'. But man, after awhile I was running out of ideas.

*East Wing* - About 75% complete - still some work to do on the 'White', 'Black' and 'Red' rooms and 1 other... I got sick of placing ,resizing and placing furniture. Probably will redo parts of the room with all the tables and chairs - don't like the layout (to cramped).

*Lower Level* - Very early WIP, really just the outlines of the walls.

Still to do: Stephen D'Amberville's tomb

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## Crovack

One room in particular I'd like to ask for some emphasis on is the room in the lower level with the Demon.  I'd like to see it have (somewhat obviously) a demonic, dark and "you will die if you play with this creature" feel.  It's supposed to be an encounter well beyond the party's abilities.

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## Steel General

Alrighty, I'll try and keep that in mind once I get to that part.

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## Gandwarf

Still looking great. I love the cobwebs in the westwing. I also like the black stone in the hallway a lot. Fantastic job!

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## Steel General

@Gandwarf - Thanks  :Smile: 

OK, here's today's update (and probably the last for a couple of days)...

Lower Level - About 90% complete, need to fill in a couple of the larger rooms with more 'stuff'. These rooms are ridiculously huge, it takes forever to add all the stuff I think should go in them and the descriptions are pretty vague. Changed the floor and wall textures, I think it's better now.

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## Gandwarf

Must... contain... myself. Must... not... run... for... treasure... room.

I like it. The stone underground is again a great choice. When I see your work I want to start mapping buildings again. But need to map some more cities first  :Razz:

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## Steel General

OK, here are the latest updates.

*West Wing* - Minor Tweaks
*East Wing* - Finished White, Black & Red rooms and room with bedrolls. Minor update to 'Game Room'
*Indoor Forest* - Hid Pits
*Lower Level* - Completed "lab rooms"
*Tomb* - WIP (first two rooms complete)

Would someone be willing to test one of these in a VTT just to see if they look any good? I'd appreciate it.

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## Steel General

OK, I've finished up the last parts of the 'Tomb' level. I'm pretty happy with the way it came out. 

I just wish the info/descriptions of the rooms were a little more detailed as far as light sources go.

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## Gandwarf

Well done Steel General. I like the indoor garden most I think. I don't care too much for the last part you did, but not because it has been badly done (I am sure you followed the descriptions). The whole fire and ice thing just looks a bit weird in a room  :Razz: 
It's some sort of elemental chamber or something?  

Anyway, I think you did some impressive work and you made some great improvements along the way (at first I didn't like the pits in the indoor garden for example and now that part is my favorite  :Smile:  )

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## Steel General

@Gandwarf - Thanks for your comments. My favorites (in order) are; the Tomb, the Garden and finally the Lower Level. I'm happy with the rest but I think those 3 came out best.

Actually that is supposed to be an "Air-based" room. Maybe its a little to bright, but its one of the few rooms with a lighting description so I tried to follow it as close as I could. They are actually separate rooms, and yup there is definitely some kind of elemental them to this as there is also "Earth" & "Water" rooms.

I learned a lot as I created each of these, hopefully I'll remember most of it, the next time I do an indoor/building map. One thing for sure is don't work with a 10' grid, it becomes very difficult to constantly size furniture and other fixtures.

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