# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  The Ganador thread - really digging down on details

## Caenwyr

Hey all!

Some of you might still remember my Ganador map from 2017 (don't worry if you don't, I almost forgot about it myself  :Razz: ). I recently saw some awesome high detail city maps pop up, complete with gables and chimneys and cobbled streets etc, and decided to try my hand at one too. But instead of inventing a city from scratch, I went back to an old city map of mine (Ganador!) and zoomed the crap out of it. 

Ganador is made up of a bunch of islands. The image below shows the northwestern island, one of the smaller ones with a nice irregular shape. This morning I started drawing outlines of houses on top of it. It's a slow process, but I kinda like the mindless nature of it. I can listen to podcasts and just let my stylus wander over the screen!

Long live podcasts by the way - they have saved me from many a dull and boring day! On a sidenote: any of you guys a fan of podcasts? And if so, which ones? 

This is the zoomed-in version of the original map:


And here's what I have at this point:

----------


## Wingshaw

That is going to be spectacular when you've finished it! It's off to a really great start already.

If I may offer a small tip: I think there's a chance that some of your buildings will look a bit too simplified. You have a lot of buildings that are long rectangles, without much variation or interesting features. And, while you also have plenty of buildings that do have a more unique look, it'd be a pity if the 'plain' buildings detract from the overall realism of the map. At least, this is my opinion. I might be alone in thinking this...

Wingshaw

----------


## Caenwyr

Thanks for the suggestion Wingshaw, you're absolutely right of course! 

Taking account your remark, I continued drawing in more houses with higher variability, and I also did some minor tweaks to the ones that were already there to make things more interesting. I might redo certain sections at a later stage to make things more interesting, but first I want to get all the houses in. 

This is my progress as of this morning:


How's that look?  :Smile:

----------


## Wingshaw

Looking really good, Caenwyr! My computer struggles a little bit to show me the detail, but I like what I can see. I remember the original thread, and it looked great. It's super exciting to see a detailed city map with this hand-drawn method.

Wingshaw

----------


## Caenwyr

> My computer struggles a little bit to show me the detail, but I like what I can see.


Thanks for you kind words, Wingshaw! I'm not really sure why your computer is struggling with the image. I know Tapatalk (the mobile phone app for viewing forums) is unable to show large image files properly, but I haven't noticed anything with an ordinary computer browser. If the problem persists, let me know! Maybe my image just isn't sharp enough, and if that's the case I want to catch it as soon as possible.

Alright. In the meantime I managed to get some more work done. You'll notice there's a bunch of new houses slowly creeping northward. Some streets bordering on the sea have gotten safety railings (we wouldn't want any drunken pirates to trip and fall into the drink!), there are some round and bendy buildings to spice things up, and even a sort of small leasure island that can be reached via a bridge. Not sure how docks worked back in the day, so I'm probably gonna give old Venice maps a long, hard look for inspiration. In Venice very few streets actually seem to open up to the water, and it's mostly the backsides of houses that touch the canals... But I like a nice dock scene, so why do it exactly as the old Venetians did, right?

----------


## QED42

Looks like you have set yourself up for a lot of work here! Will enjoy keeping an eye on this one  :Smile:

----------


## Caenwyr

> Looks like you have set yourself up for a lot of work here!


Oh yes, I always do that. "Let's try something entirely new. Okay, but on a small scale." 2 minutes later: *expands size of image file to a bazillion megapixels*  :Very Happy: 

Okay, here's another update! I spent hours on this one, and it barely shows. These landing stages take a crazy amount of time!

----------


## QED42

I think biting off more you can chew is a pretty common theme for everyone on this site.

----------


## Caenwyr

> I think biting off more you can chew is a pretty common theme for everyone on this site.


*speaking with mouth full* I gan shew ib. I'm shewim ib ribe mow!  :Very Happy: 

Alright. I got some more work done yesterday, and it looks like I'm closing in on the northern edge of the map: the Widow’s Quarter. WQ (as the cool kids call it) is sort of the administrative district of Sahwyn Island, named after the Widow’s Palace located on the northern tip, a beautiful mansion overlooking the bay surrounded by gardens. It once was the residence of the great Lady Iraena and has a nice little backstory to it, but now it’s mostly used to house guests of high honour (mostly visiting heads of state and stupendously rich merchants), and as a venue for outrageous parties for Ganador’s 1%. The Palace itself isn’t visible yet in the image below, but you can already see the entrance gate, two trees and one of the outbuildings.





Backstory to the Widow's Palace:


* *




The origin of Widow’s Palace lies some 200 years ago. The position of Master of the Ganador City Council, the most powerful man in the city and arguably in the known world, was about to be opened up for election, after one of the longest reigns in history. Political factions in the city had started campaigning vigorously, but one man was clearly the most popular candidate. His name was Lord Askild Braen, a young man still, only in his late twenties and just recently married. Despite his age he was a decorated navy officer with many victories to his name, and immensely popular with the poorer masses. He was charismatic, strong, always kind, born rich but giving plenty to charity, and most importantly, his new wife was as charming and beautiful as he was. The masses loved him, but they _worshipped_ Lady Iraena. And she used that fact to his advantage. She addressed the crowds almost as often as he did, from balconies and wagons and platforms, and they came to hear her speak in droves. She only had to whisper her husband’s name to have the crowds chant it with a thousand voices over and over again, and when she raised her voice, it sounded like the silver bells of Kestwyn Tower had started ringing. The Braen Couple were a magnificent force, and they would surely have won… if Lord Askild hadn’t disappeared.

He had left their marital home early one morning to get some work done before they went off campaigning again together, and just never returned home again. In the investigation that followed, his manservant turned out to be the last one that ever saw him, rowing away in the house dinghy to the Parliament on the next island, a quick 5 minute row away, although a misty one that particular morning. No one had ever seen him land on the other island. The investigation showed four possible explanations: he had drowned, been taken away on a strange current and swept off to the open sea, he had been kidnapped by a political opponent to be released after the elections, or he had been murdered. There was no lead, no official suspect, nothing. The waters he would have crossed were dredged, but nothing of interest was found. Police searched the surrounding bay, but all they found was the dinghy, floating upside down several miles from land. Lady Iraena addressed the crowds again, visibly distressed, and promised a massive reward for any news, just any news at all, and a just staggering amount of money if someone returned her husband back to her, but all she got was a storm of fake clues, and silence. Election day came, and the crowds stormed the Parliament to demand being able to vote for the absentee, or for his wife instead, but by that time Lord Braen had officially been declared missing (rendering his candidacy for Master invalid), and his wife, being a woman, was not eligible to such high a rank, and she hadn’t even applied. Riots broke out all over the City’s islands, government buildings were besieged by the masses and some were even set on fire, so enormous was their rage, but eventually they had to accept that their beloved candidate had just… gone.

In the end, another candidate was chosen, and the investigation into Lord Braen’s disappearance was quietly closed. He was never returned to her, even after she promised to give whatever they owned and whatever she could collect from their supporters, and never press charges. 

Lady Iraena sold the house in the city centre she had bought with her husband, and pooled all the funds she had, all of it, in the construction of a secluded palace on the northern tip of Ganador’s northernmost island, so she could keep vigil, praying for his return. She became known as the Widow-without-a-Corpse, and spent the rest of her life away from public life. She never took part in any politics again, not even when the position of Master became available for women too (thanks to the tireless work of her husband’s old political allies). The masses of Ganador came to her door, begged and pleaded for her to take up her husband’s role, promising to keep her safe, knowing she would have won the next election with a landslide. But she never applied. She kept waiting for her husband, the Late Lord Braen, and eventually faded into Ganador's rich mythology.

----------


## Wingshaw

This thread is getting better and better. I'm really looking forward to seeing the Widow's Palace, and I love the backstory. If I understand correctly, you're mapping just one of the islands of Ganador, or are you going to do the whole city?

Wingshaw

----------


## Caenwyr

Good question. I originally planned to do the entire city, but this is just waaaaay too much work. So for now it's just gonna be this one island. I might come back and do other islands in bits and pieces between commissions and other personal projects, but definitely not one after the other, seeing how I don't intend to go nuts completely. Drawing a crapton of houses is great fun, but multiple craptons in rapid succession: not so much. I'm already looking forward to colouring this one!

And also, I just accepted a commission, so this one is now on hiatus for a bit (but no worries, I will absolutely come back to it, and maybe even continue work on it if I can sneak it in!)

----------


## Adfor

I admire your diligence, Caenwyr, this is looking great so far! Fabricating so many buildings over and over can be ultra tedious, I feel your pain. I hope you come back to this soon, I'd love to see it with color!

Cheers!

IR

----------


## Caenwyr

Alright, back to this map! I had a bit of free time in my latest commission (waiting for input from the client), so I decided to continue work on this one for a bit. The last update I made was from waaay back in March, so I was afraid I wouldn't be able to emulate the style I had going on back then, but I think I pulled it off. Also, it's not that hard, just fat lines for the outline and thin lines for the roof edges, which might explain things  :Razz: . 

I finally managed to work in the Widow's Palace. It's not as grandiose as the bigger structure to the SW of it, but it's supposed to be more elegant, and a good bit more lavish too. Also, it has its own garden, two piers for pleasure boats to dock and a smaller guest house with a huge (yoooodge!) terrace extending over the turquoise waters of the bay. That open space south of the Widow's Palace still needs to be filled in of course. I'm thinking of doing a bustling market surrounding a overly ornate weigh house (like the Waag in Amsterdam), but that's not decided just yet. Keep an eye out for the next update, is all I can say!



All in all, I'm glad I got to spend another hour on this piece. It's been nagging at the back of my mind for over half a year now. I've worked on several pieces in the meantime, each of which I loved (or love) doing, but the fact that this one still isn't finished kept bugging me. I'm sure client will come through any moment now, but it was a pleasure continuing on it, even for a bit!

----------


## ThomasR

Another monstrously beautiful city  :Smile:

----------


## Wingshaw

Glad to see this map is still in production. I can't wait to see it finished  :Smile: 

Wingshaw

----------


## J.Edward

That is going to be really cool  :Very Happy:

----------


## Caenwyr

Hey thanks guys! Happy to hear you're liking it!

The last few hours I had a bit of time again, so I went ahead and did some work on this map. I'm curious if you'll see the difference with my previous upload!  :Wink:

----------


## bkh1914

> I'm curious if you'll see the difference with my previous upload!


Ummm... Is this a test?  :Surprised: 

I forgot to study for it.  :Frown: 
...but a wild guess is better than leaving the answer blank...

Let's see..

<chews on pencil and frowns in concentration>

Hey, you added colors!
Yah, and shadows, too.  :Very Happy: 


This is looking good.

----------


## ThomasR

> Hey thanks guys! Happy to hear you're liking it!
> 
> The last few hours I had a bit of time again, so I went ahead and did some work on this map. I'm curious if you'll see the difference with my previous upload!


I've always been impressed by the layout and skills of your former map but did not really like the embossed aesthetic. The drawn version is marvelous ! Do you plan on adding texture or color variation to the plain colors ?

----------


## Caenwyr

> Hey, you added colors!
> Yah, and shadows, too.


*ding ding ding* we have a winner!  :Very Happy: 




> I've always been impressed by the layout and skills of your former map but did not really like the embossed aesthetic. The drawn version is marvelous ! Do you plan on adding texture or color variation to the plain colors ?


Oh wow Thomas, thanks! I do intend to work in some texture to the roofs, but after many experiments I still haven't come up with something that looks like actual roof tiles/shingles/copper plating. Will have to experiment a little further I suppose!

Okay, here's another update:


My commission client just sent me a bunch of new input for that other map I'm making (which I'll post in due time!), so this map will go dormant again for a bit. But fear not, I _will_ come back to it!

----------


## Wingshaw

This is looking really great, Caenwyr! I'm curious about your method with the colouring: when i'm colouring a city map, I start with one element (eg roofs or trees) and do all of them for the map, before doing the next. I haven't seen this approach of colouring all elements from one area and moving to the next area before. How do you get it to look so seamless?

Wingshaw

----------


## Caenwyr

> This is looking really great, Caenwyr! I'm curious about your method with the colouring: when i'm colouring a city map, I start with one element (eg roofs or trees) and do all of them for the map, before doing the next. I haven't seen this approach of colouring all elements from one area and moving to the next area before. How do you get it to look so seamless?
> 
> Wingshaw


The trick is, cheat! I have tons of half-finished colouring and shading in that northern part, but at this stage it's a complete mess, so I decided not to show it! Basically I put all my shading and colouring layers in a big group, and masked out everything that wasn't good enough yet to show  :Razz:

----------


## - JO -

looking forward to see a new update ! it's a huge work, but it's paying off : the color extract is very impressive and eye catching (almost like the original huge map !)

----------


## delgondahntelius

Absolutely Marvelous work! Beautiful buildings and I love the water. I'm working on city maps too, trying to improve my skills and I look at a piece of art like this and it pushes me harder to do more. Great coloring too, I'm curious, are the Blue and Teal buildings going to be places that you mark on the legend of the map? Those special places that the PC's want to tour? Some texturing to the buildings would probably bring it out more, but honestly I like the look of it now. Clean and Good Looking!

Del

----------


## Caenwyr

> looking forward to see a new update ! it's a huge work, but it's paying off : the color extract is very impressive and eye catching (almost like the original huge map !)


Thanks Jo! That's what I'm aiming for too in this map! I want it to look vibrant and eye-catching just like you said. Here's hoping I'll succeed in keeping that level all throughout the map!




> I'm curious, are the Blue and Teal buildings going to be places that you mark on the legend of the map? Those special places that the PC's want to tour? Some texturing to the buildings would probably bring it out more, but honestly I like the look of it now. Clean and Good Looking!


Thanks! The different coloured roofs are just different roofing materials. I'm experimenting a bit with what's possible. The teal is just oxidized bronze as you'll find on many a church and temple all over the world, while the blue is supposed to be enameled roof tiles. The orange is terracotta of course. Not sure how many roofs I'll do in each of those styles. For the moment I'm keeping it mostly terracotta with a "special" roof here and there to spice things up a bit and I kinda like that principle. 

By the way, here's another update!

----------


## QED42

> By the way, here's another update!


About time!

Looking really good, I like how the water in particular is coming along.

----------


## Caenwyr

Alright, here's yet another incremental update! 



I've not just continued colouring and shading new buildings, I've also gone back and added a "light" layer to all of the existing buildings, so the roof slopes perpendicular to the sun now appear a bit lighter. That should help in conveying the 3D-ishness of this image!

----------


## Caenwyr

Alright, and here's the completed shading and colouring! 



I had a bit of time on my hands yesterday...  :Razz: 

I haven't worked in a texture to the roofs yet, but I'm afraid that's going to be terribly tedious, so I might just sulk and refuse to do it  :Very Happy: . Also, There's going to be a legend on the right as you will have guessed by now, and I'm also thinking of adding a sideways view of the island, as seen from the prow of an approaching ship. Not sure how that is going to pan out though!

----------


## QED42

Looking really great. Speaking of ships, are you going to put some of them or some boats in the harbour? The place looks a little on the empty side right now.

----------


## Caenwyr

> Looking really great. Speaking of ships, are you going to put some of them or some boats in the harbour? The place looks a little on the empty side right now.


Oh yes, definitely! There's gonna be tons of 'em. I have several ship plans lying around already so these are going to be put to good use. There's supposed to be a regular ferry service between this island, the others and the mainland, and then every respectable home on the waterfront will have at least one boat of its own, some more elaborate than others. 

Really big ships will only be found in the deeper parts of course, and I might even draw the floating Pilots' Office where merchant ships can dock to hire a pilote. Trying to navigate the treacherous shallows without a pilote is not only suicide, it's also illegal in Ganador. In reality that raft would be a fair bit further south, but I might incorporate it here just to show it exists  :Wink:

----------


## XCali

Hi Caenwyr! That sea sure is lovely!  :Smile:  I'm enjoying how this one is coming along.

Can I suggest something. The cast shadows on the buildings are done really well. You have a good eye for that. One thing I would suggest is adding core shadows(dark small shadows) to the buildings, as it is now, they don't really pop very much and the core shadows would make them pop very nicely.
Like for example you are using core shadows for your ocean already and it makes that thing look like it is climbing out of the image, which is awesome.  :Smile: 

Btw, your island top right looks like it is floating for some reason. Can't really point out why at the moment.

All, said, good job so far.  :Very Happy:

----------


## Caenwyr

> One thing I would suggest is adding core shadows(dark small shadows) to the buildings, as it is now, they don't really pop very much and the core shadows would make them pop very nicely.


Jeebus XCali, you're entirely right! I hadn't noticed that lack of a core shadow yet, but now I can't unsee it (lol, this must be new, I can't unsee the _absence_ of something  :Very Happy: ). 

Okay, I did a test with a first bunch of buildings near the centre. It's not even that hard, I think I should be able to work in the effect in less than an hour. Is this what you had in mind? You were talking about the dropshadows, right? Not the shading on the roofs themselves?




> Btw, your island top right looks like it is floating for some reason. Can't really point out why at the moment.


I know! I'll add some "anchoring" shadowing here and there, that should take care of it. By the way, there will be more islands in the palest spots, I just didn't draw them (yet) since I plan to add a big legend and title box in the right part of the map. Bits and pieces that happen to poke from the sides of that box will appear eventually. 

Also, I added the first two ships! Unlike the core shadows, this work I very much underestimated. Phew! Linework is one thing, but shading is quite another. Shading a ship really requires a bit more insight in shapes and forms than shading a house, which is basically a box. But, it worked out pretty well I think! No core shadows yet, but these will follow shortly.

By the way! Anyone with a bit of an eye for detail will notice that the two ships already visible are actually two copies of the same ship. Flipped and rotated and with sails added to one, but still. Shading helps in making them look different (one rides quite a bit deeper than the other!), and adding sails helps too. Plus, once all the other ships and boats and sloops and whatnot are added too, you shouldn't be able to easily spot two (or three, four?) copies of the same ship. Or at least, I hope! Because I don't plan on  drawing a bazillion different ship plans!  :Razz: 



Any remarks on the core shadow, the ship(s) or any other detail? Just yell!

----------


## RobEm

This is looking amazing! I love the ships and wanted to share some thoughts I had. The level of detail on the ships is great but, because of this, they appear to have a slightly higher level of realism than the area around them; the ship trails a wake and spray kicks off her bows, but there are no waves on the millpond-flat surface of the water, no surf crashes around the base of the tower, despite there being wind enough to fill her sails, and this stillness means the shadow of the ship is crisp, rather than being scattered by the movement of the water and softened by light reflected from the sea's floor. At least the approaching ship looks friendly, which may be just as well for the captain of the ship at anchor; if she had to defend the settlement, could she make the tight turns around the jetties to get out of the harbour?

----------


## bkh1914

I bet that ship has twin diesels and the sails are just a disguise.  :Wink: 

But you bring up a very valid point,  RobEm.
Most fantasy map makers have no boating experience.
They put ships where they look pretty, just like everyone else does.
Do they have room to maneuver? Who cares as long as they look cool.
And the thing that I find most annoying is that docks along rivers usually jut straight out into the river so that the boats are moored broadside to the current.

No offense Caenwyr, your map looks excellent.
I'm just doing a minor vent and it happens to be in your thread.

----------


## Tonquani

This is looking fantastic. The vibrant colours and shading are superb.

A couple of minor things that stick out to me...
The transition from sand to sea on the small  sandy island seems a bit sudden, like it gets to the edge of the water and then drops away vertically. Maybe some sort of texture that quickly fades as you move away from the edge...
Also, there are quite a few chimneys that are missing their shadows.

Otherwise it is looking stunning. I especially like the new core shadows.

----------


## Caenwyr

> Most fantasy map makers have no boating experience.
> They put ships where they look pretty, just like everyone else does.
> Do they have room to maneuver? Who cares as long as they look cool.


No no, you're absolutely right! As much as I like places (and stories) with sailing vessels, I don't really know much about them, so I can use any input you have. Doesn't mean I'm gonna adapt this map (I'm lazy, and it's still just a practice map!), but I'll learn something I can use in future maps. 



> The level of detail on the ships is great but, because of this, they appear to have a slightly higher level of realism than the area around them


Yeah I plead guilty... I still have to add some detail to the roofs but I got so bored with them that I basically dropped that. Might still pick it up after all the ship business, but no promises!




> The transition from sand to sea on the small sandy island seems a bit sudden, like it gets to the edge of the water and then drops away vertically. Maybe some sort of texture that quickly fades as you move away from the edge...
> Also, there are quite a few chimneys that are missing their shadows.


Thanks for those inputs! I think I tackled the transition of the island, and I'll check out the chimneys for sure!

Here another update by the way! Some more ships and dinghies of all sorts and sizes!

----------


## Caenwyr

OK! I managed to continue work on this map for a little longer, and I have now supplied each of the houses on the waterfront with their own dinghy. Some are away on some errand of course. There's also a number of flat-bottomed ferries, a sprinkle of larger, more luxurious craft and even a rather large junk! I also added a splash of paint to the ships that were already there. 



Also, I toyed a bit with a texture to the roofs! the building block in the south of the map show what I have in mind. Does this look decent to you guys?

----------


## ThomasR

That's really impressive but, what fool am I to think you'll deliver less than awesome ?  :Wink:

----------


## Caenwyr

> That's really impressive but, what fool am I to think you'll deliver less than awesome ?


Oh stop it you, now you're just trying to make me blush *flutters eyelashes*  :Razz: 

Seriously though, thanks for saying that! I'm still slaving away at this piece though: drawing sailing vessels, while great fun, is incredibly slow work! While adding a house (well the roof of a house) takes mere seconds, drawing, colouring and shading a ship of the same size easily takes an hour, often more if you want to get all the shadows right. And boy are there a lot of shadows. But really, it's a fun process, and I'm experimenting with several tricks to minimize the work little by little. I only just discovered you can use the "Symmetry options" function in Photoshop to draw one half of a ship, and Photoshop automatically (and immediately!) draws the other half as you go along. This basically doubles my drawing speed, so that's awesome. 

Okay! This update doesn't seem to differ much from the previous one, but I can tell you there's like 5 hours of work between the two!



Bonus points for the first one to point out a ship with a bit of a problem!

----------


## RobEm

> Bonus points for the first one to point out a ship with a bit of a problem!


Running aground on shoals is bad enough, but a ship wreck in full view of the town, with children whooping and jeering from the quay, would be so much worse! 

The map is looking fantastic, I'm loving the stories that it is generating!

----------


## Caenwyr

Uh, I never expected detailing the roofs would be this tedious! But I managed to do about half of them by now (almost having lost my mind several times - thank the Gods for podcasts for keeping me entertained!), so I guess that's something! 



What do you think, does all this scribbling on rooftops actually add something to the map or is it just a fool's errand?

----------


## Tiana

Of course it does something.  :Smile:  It enriches the detail. I sometimes listen to roleplaying game campaigns while I draw, sometimes music, sometimes music that I'm designing on loop so I can work on it more, sometimes videos that are audio-centric, not usually podcasts specifically. Don't be afraid to cheat the roofing a bit by making say, a chain of different chimney shapes in brushes or a shingle pattern that you can trap over top of all houses facing a certain direction.

----------


## J.Edward

> Uh, I never expected detailing the roofs would be this tedious! But I managed to do about half of them by now (almost having lost my mind several times - thank the Gods for podcasts for keeping me entertained!), so I guess that's something! 
> 
> What do you think, does all this scribbling on rooftops actually add something to the map or is it just a fool's errand?


This occurred with the Haerlech map. I wasn't going to do roof details.
Then did, and created so much more work for myself.
But, it's worth it in the end.

----------


## QED42

The detailing adds to the map for sure. Unfortunately tedious elements seem to make there way in to all sorts of maps.

----------


## Narolas

I am in awe at this, I especially love the shadows and how much information they give, how everything feels real.

It looks like the sun has to be a little low to give such strong shadows, showing the contour of buildings and roofs. I'm going to take inspiration from such beautiful shadows and style, you've given me hope for my own "Why did I make this so big" map  :Razz:

----------


## Caenwyr

> It looks like the sun has to be a little low to give such strong shadows, showing the contour of buildings and roofs. I'm going to take inspiration from such beautiful shadows and style, you've given me hope for my own "Why did I make this so big" map


Oh yes, it's a common issue here on the Guild. We should start a self-help group!  :Razz:  

By the way, I drew these shadows assuming the light source to be elevated above the horizon at about 45°, which is roughly noon at moderate latitudes. However, the direction the light is coming from is all wrong for that to be possible: it appears to be coming from the NW. The sun only ever reaches that point (on the northern hemisphere at least) at fairly high latitudes, an then only in summer... and then only much lower above the horizon than 45°. What I did here is follow an old and tested tradition of shading things as if light were coming from the top left. Our mind's eye has become accustomed to that lighting scheme, so much so that if you were to shade a map with the light coming from somewhere near the bottom, it would kinda look inverted, as if the extrusions (houses, hills) were depressions. 

Ever stared at a satellite image of, say, Mars, and asked yourself why there are these weird dome-like structures all over the place, only to realize you were actually looking at a crater, lighted from the bottom of the image? This one is a good example, and I really have to force my brain to see the depressions as depressions instead of weird hills.

----------


## Narolas

Very interesting info about shadow and light direction. I might change my map following that advice.

If the sun is at a noon height, then I guess I'm just too used to putting it really high and having weak shadows. I'm also realising that the scale here is not that large compared to the map I was comparing to, so I'm not actually that far off, I think.

I really love the effect it gives here, so I'm going to change that habit!

Do you have any particular way/technique of reliably drawing the shadows or do you mostly eyeball the relative length/eight of things ?

----------


## Caenwyr

Okay, this has been a while! Sorry for not getting back to you earlier, Narolas, I totally lost track of this thread while working on my Viridia map, but now that's done (and while I'm waiting for some input from another client) I decided to give this one a long overdue touch of attention. But first, question time! 



> Do you have any particular way/technique of reliably drawing the shadows or do you mostly eyeball the relative length/eight of things ?


For the dropshadows of the buildings I basically coloured in the roofs, selected all the coloured pixels from that layer (in Photoshop that's by Ctrl-clicking the layer), moved that selection x pixels down and to the right and then bucket filled it with black. Then I went back to the roof colour layer, Ctrl-clicked it again (again selecting the total footprint of the roofs), selected my shading layer again and clicked delete. That made sure there would only be shadows where there weren't roofs. then all I had to do was draw diagonal lines between the roof corners and the shadow corners and fill in the triangles. Actually it's a bit more elaborate than that but that's the general gist. 

Also, I hand-selected a few buildings (using the lasso tool) and did the same trick, but moving the shadows a few dozen pixels more down and to the right. These would be taller buildings like towers, and large halls. 

Getting the shadows right on the roofs themselves was an entirely different problem, and I mostly eyeballed those, with a lot of trial and error to be sure!

-----------------------

Alright, another update I said, and here it is. You'll notice I worked on the roof detail a bit more (slowly creeping northward with my dashes, but I also added a pattern to them that should help convey "this is actual terracotta!" a little better). I also threw in some cobbles in the streets, splashed some green muck on them and a bit of dirt in the corners. Not finished yet, but slowly getting there!

----------


## Wingshaw

I'm gonna be bold and say it: I think we're seeing a Cartographers' Choice in the making here!

Looks great Caenwyr  :Smile: 

Wingshaw

----------


## Caenwyr

> I'm gonna be bold and say it: I think we're seeing a Cartographers' Choice in the making here!
> 
> 
> Looks great Caenwyr 
> 
> 
> Wingshaw


Thanks Wingshaw, and hoo boy do I hope you're right! But even if it won't get to that, I'm still quite proud of my progress. It's slow business, but I love to see this place come alive. And in this update, that's more specifically in the sea... because waves! Waves! 


Oh, and I detailed a few more roofs, which actually took way more time. But who's counting when there's waves!!

----------


## QED42

Looks like it is really getting there, hope to see this one finished soon now you are back on it.

----------


## Caenwyr

Oh I'm only back for a little bit, the other client is already rearing their decidedly-not-ugly head  :Very Happy: . I can't shoe you any high res images of that particular commission, but I _can_ say that it's the follow-up to my Mor Nadar map, this time focusing on the region to the north. 

But while they're getting all of their labelling together, I try to squeeze in some more work on this one. I still have that other unfinished thread too by the way, Millbridge Hall. Not sure I'll ever get to finish that one, but this one here is definitely on the shortlist!

----------


## QED42

Lets not get into unfinished or abandoned maps, I have far too many of those!

----------


## Caenwyr

Alright, update!

Added an inset on the right, comprising a title box, a minimap and a large empty space for the legend. Nothing's final yet, but I kinda like the layout. Does it fit with the rest of the map in your opinion? 

Also, there's two versions since I just couldn't decide on the style of sea in the minimap. So, let me know what you think! 

   ><   

Ooh yeah, almost forgot, I also started drawing in the bits and pieces of other islands in the east. Shouldn't take too long now that I have the hang of it

----------


## Bindusara

i prefer the blue version.

----------


## ThomasR

Blue, without hesitation ! It's gorgeous !

----------


## Kellerica

Hmm. I don't know. The blue one is pretty, but I also kind of like how in the brown one the minimap is clearly different from the main one. Both have their merits. Gun to my head, I would say I too prefer the blue one, but it's not a very strong preference.

----------


## Falconius

The non blue one is easier to read.  The blue one is blue, and blue is good :p

----------


## QED42

I am team blue.

----------


## Caenwyr

Okay, thanks people! I was secretly kind of a blue fan too... Glad you guys agree!

I have been fiddling with this map a bit more, trying to minimize the size of that side bar. I've started experimenting with putting the labels on the map itself, instead of just putting numbers on the map and the rest in the legend. And it seems to be working! 



Still gotta add a few more labels in select places, but generally speaking I'm happy with how it looks. Which means I can probably drop that legend bit in the sidebar, and I get to draw a bunch more houses in the SE corner!

----------


## kacey

I absolutely love the way you’ve done the water in the sidebar, would love to see a tutorial on this one day... Nice work as always.

----------


## QED42

Some of the labels on the map look like the white behind them needs to be a bit less translucent to make them stand out more/easier to read.

----------


## tilt

holy moly... what a beautiful work you've done - love every bit of it  :Smile:   two questions to your naming that pops up. (I like the labels on the map too) ... 1. The underbelly.. the houses seem so nice for something named so.. not nice  :Wink:  ... the thousand taverns, but I see but one?  :Wink:   .. lovely copplestone pattern, and I like the green patches on it.. very nice. Amazing map  :Smile:

----------


## rdanhenry

"Thieve's Guild" should be "Thieves' Guild".

The label style is looking good.

----------


## Caenwyr

> "Thieve's Guild" should be "Thieves' Guild".
> 
> The label style is looking good.


No no, you misunderstand, this is actually a Guild made up of just one Thieve (Not "thief" as you might have seen it misspelled by those not in the know), so I was right! 

I'm joking of course. Thanks for pointing it out!

----------


## Caenwyr

Alright, another update!

A ton more labels, and a few really bad puns and alliterations. 

Also, the legend box is gone, so I started drawing in the islands it used to overlap too! I'm sort of working on two fronts right now, all pistons firing.

----------


## Dimension Door

This map has so much details. Zooming in and wandering around is a delight and really shows all the hard work you put into it. Great job!

----------


## Caenwyr

> This map has so much details. Zooming in and ‘wandering around’ is a delight and really shows all the hard work you put into it. Great job!


Thanks DD! So glad you seem to like it  :Very Happy: 

OK, here's another update. I inked in the last bit (blue lines in my previous post), then dropped some colour into it and finally shaded the hell out of the place. 

Also, I know this is super detailed nonsense, but I slightly changed the drop shadow of the fish market so it now has an open floorplan, and I added a few rivulets of blood flowing into the sea. I thought of adding an expanding red cloud in the water too, but that would be a bit too much. I experimented with sewers flowing into the bay too, and came to the same conclusion: it might be more realistic, but it just ain't pretty  :Razz:

----------


## QED42

It is subtle but I really like the blood effect you added by the fish market.

----------


## Eowyn Cwper

Amazing textures and shadows!  :Surprised:

----------


## Old_Tom_Bombadil

Love the shadows! The blood-stained cobbles near the fish market really are a delightful touch. It's details like those that really bring the map to life  :Smile:

----------


## Caenwyr

Thanks OTB! Also, I like your nickname. They really should've given him a spot in the movies.  :Wink: 

Okay, another update! I changed the linework of the frame! It was a bit too clean to my taste. Also, the labelling is now entirely finished, and I added a little something extra near the bottom too. Tiny, really. Almost unnoticeable!  :Razz: 



I think this might be my final WIP version actually, so if you have remarks, no matter how nitpicky, be sure to let me know before I go and post this one in the finished section!

----------


## Caenwyr

Woah, hold that thought, mister! I just now realised I still have to add a bunch of dinghies to the "new" islands, and a few of them on Qestri Bay too!

Phew, dodged a bullet there  :Very Happy:

----------


## Voolf

Wow it looks spectacular. Love the ships, so much details.

----------


## Caenwyr

OK, I know I've said it before, but I *think* this is my final update before moving over to the finished section. 

I'll probably think of something else to fix, and maybe you guys will find something that needs fixing (if you do, be sure to let me know!!), which I'll be happy to tackle first. Kinda feeling giddy about calling this one finished. I've worked so long on it, stopping now would be weird!  :Very Happy:

----------


## QED42

I realise I'm risking opening a huge can of worms here but I'm not sure how I feel about all those smaller boats with no one in them. Looks kind of ghostly having empty boats going about the place.

----------


## Adfor

It has a lovely flow about it. I'm so very fond of your style Caenwyr, and this is a wonderful delve into what is one of my favorite city layouts.

As for putting little people on ships & streets, I think it could breathe some life into this gem if you're willing to take the time before whisking it off to the finished section.

You've successfully dug in on details.  :Razz:  Superb work!

IR

----------


## Josiah VE

Holy moly. This is magnificent. A stunning masterpiece to be sure. 
The one thing that isn't my favorite is the really bright water. But that's a fairly small thing, it's brilliant!

----------


## Bogie

Excellent work, love the layout!

----------


## Caenwyr

> I realise I'm risking opening a huge can of worms here but I'm not sure how I feel about all those smaller boats with no one in them. Looks kind of ghostly having empty boats going about the place.





> As for putting little people on ships & streets, I think it could breathe some life into this gem if you're willing to take the time before whisking it off to the finished section.


Well um, I tried, but drawing people in boats means I'd have to be drawing people in the streets too. And on the ships. And maybe a few on the beach of whathaveyou. So basically I'd have to draw tiny top-down people *everywhere*, and then draw all of their shadows! I did ten or so and went stark raving mad, so um... no people, sorry  :Razz: 




> Holy moly. This is magnificent. A stunning masterpiece to be sure. 
> The one thing that isn't my favorite is the really bright water. But that's a fairly small thing, it's brilliant!





> Excellent work, love the layout!


Thanks for your feedback people! You guys are the best! 

Map has been published in the finished section here.

----------

