# Main > Technical Support and Notices >  What should we do about Rep ?

## Redrobes

Hi Everyone,

I need your help - or at least your opinion, and I would hope that a lot of people would use the poll on this thread to let us know how you feel about the Rep system on this site.

The Rep is for reputation and shows up as the green bar and your little tag when you hover the mouse cursor over it showing how well your doing. It was added a long time ago - when I was a normal member like most people on the site. I recall the time it started and we could all dish out just our 1 rep boost to someones score for a map we liked.

The forum implements an increase to the amount that you give out based on your rep score. So if you have 1000 rep then you might give out 10 points each time. Also, for every year you have been on the site you have another point on to that score.

We have a bit of a problem which was first acknowledged many years ago when people had boosts of +13 or +20. Time has gone by and now we have some members who have multi 10,000 rep scores where they dish out > 100 pts per hit. Our highest member is about 800 at a time. For even those members they have said that they have reigned in and not given out so many hits of rep because each time they do it then it boosts that members rep score by too much in one go. I think we have the situation where one hit will take somebody up several levels at once.

We have noticed that in recent times we have members with rep scores approaching 10,000 where they have made only a few posts. No doubt they have produced some amazing maps and art in their first few months on the forum.

So we have rampant rep inflation going on now.

So I thought that it would be a good idea to gauge just how people felt about the rep system by running a couple of polls.

The first one is just to see what the sentiment is like out there for rep and how you feel about it. Then I might do another one regarding what to do about it given the limitations of the forum.

So please vote on the poll and I would like for both the established members and also the newer members to make their voices heard. Do comment on this thread and express in words how you find it working for you and whether its important or whether you feel alienated by the amounts of rep being dished out or your ability to express how much you like other peoples work using the rep system.

----------


## Jerron

Oh, I  never bothered to think about how the rep system actually works and I also never bothered about how much rep I'm receiving or distributing. So yeah, the whole system is in dire need of some transparency.

----------


## Yrda

As a new member, this kind of system was kind of new for me. At first I didn't know that when I was giving rep to someone, it was worth nothing at first. 
I was feeling sorry then, because I gave someone rep with a value of zero, and I didn't want to insult that member by "giving zero points". And since then I didn't give rep to anyone anymore because I was a bit uneasy about it (and I just had to check again where that rep feature was hidden anyway).

I'm also not sure if I should say thank you to everyone who gave rep to me. Of course I was happy that people did it each time (because it felt like a warm and positive welcome to me, just like the friendly comments), but I didn't know if people might "expect" a written thank you like I've seen later on some other reps for other members.

I guess it would be easier to understand if rating a certain posting/thread worked the same as giving rep. 
For example: if I rate this thread "excellent", you get 10 rep. If I rate it "terrible" (who would do that, anyway?), you'd get -1 rep or something? But I guess there is a reason why it doesn't work like that. 

It's just that it would focus more on the work than on the person, at least to me. Who is using the whole rating system anyway? The "+" or "-" system works on platforms like reddit, I guess (although I don't really use that). Like "+" this is helpful or great, "-" for "that might be a troll". 
And if a "-" isn't wanted at all, just a simple "+" (counting as 1 for everyone) might do?

edit: about the inflation:
Yes, to me it also felt as if my rep got up "a little" quickly, at least visually, not telling anything about my time or amount of activity here.

----------


## Redrobes

> Oh, I  never bothered to think about how the rep system actually works and I also never bothered about how much rep I'm receiving or distributing. So yeah, the whole system is in dire need of some transparency.


Hi Jerron, you are a good example of a person with > 10,000 rep and 89 posts as of writing. I have seen your maps and they are truly excellent but let me explain the rep scoring system in detail for you and we can analyze how it breaks down:

You start with 1 point of rep power. You get get another 1 for being a member for more than a year. You get an extra 1 more for every 1000 posts you make so you dont qualify for that at the moment. And you are at +2 now. Then you also get +1 per 100 rep that you have attained yourself - so you get an extra +100 ! So you are giving out +102 rep per hit when you add to someones reputation. Its that +100 bit that is a bit of a skew to the system and where I think I must do something about it.

----------


## Falconius

I basically use rep as a big kind of "like" button, other than communicating that "like" to a person rep doesn't matter to me.  Also I was sad when the "like" buttons for posts got removed due to unavoidable circumstances.

----------


## Redrobes

> At first I didn't know that when I was giving rep to someone, it was worth nothing at first.
> ...
> It's just that it would focus more on the work than on the person, at least to me. Who is using the whole rating system anyway? The "+" or "-" system works on platforms like reddit, I guess (although I don't really use that). Like "+" this is helpful or great, "-" for "that might be a troll". 
> And if a "-" isn't wanted at all, just a simple "+" (counting as 1 for everyone) might do?
> ...
> Yes, to me it also felt as if my rep got up "a little" quickly, at least visually, not telling anything about my time or amount of activity here.


The forum software has many limitations but there are a number of options about what we could do about it. So all of these opinions and good for discussion. Certainly I don't like the initial thing where you have to have 30 rep yourself before your rep you dish out counts to others. I think its there so you cant open up 10 new forum accounts and dish out rep from each of them but in all fairness we have the initial 5 post anti spam measures now. I don't like the initial 30 rep start either.

If you think that having everyone on +1 no matter is best then ill make sure that is an option in the future poll about whats to be done about it.

We do currently have the option of giving -ve rep. I think its half of what your +ve rep would have been but not many people give -ve rep scores as it shows up on the your profile rep sheet. I think if you dont like something that much then its time to make a note to the CLs and ask them to do something. Perhaps fantasy map making is not something that calls for a much -ve rep.

----------


## Greason Wolfe

Perhaps changing it to +1 for every 1000 earned would help?

For my part, I like the basic idea of rep as a means of showing or receiving appreciation for the effort/work that is/has been done. However, I've never really concerned myself with how much I've earned over the years or how much I give out at a pop. To me the numbers don't matter all that much, so if we were all receiving/giving only 1 point at a time, I'd be as okay with that as I would be if it were 100 points.

Just my humble opinion.

----------


## bkh1914

I view the rep system as a pat on the back, and frankly I appreciate it.

I think lowering the post count is a good idea.  I know I held off on giving rep until I had reached that minimum post level just so I wouldn't be giving empty rep.

The mushrooming rep power is a real issue.  Would it be possible to do a sliding scale for the rep power based on your rep score?  Something like the number of boxes in the rep bar? (i.e. a logarithmic scale)

If I remember correctly, you also get one point of rep power for each thousand posts.  I like that idea.  It tends to favor the chatty people, but they are the ones that give this forum life and I think that it is as important to recognize that contribution as it is to recognize the people that have gotten rep for wonderful maps.

I don't like the idea of negative rep.  This forum is about encouragement and constructive criticism.  Negative rep is not constructive.

----------


## Eowyn Cwper

I totally agree with Yrda and not just because I'm a new member as well. I don't really know how forums work but I would also simplify the system drastically  assuming that it's indeed simple to do. A basic +1 / -1 reputation system looks totally fine to me, that's what we have on the conlanging community ConWorkShop and people love it. You can see on my profile that I have received 2 748 upvotes and 108 downvotes.

There's a karma statistics page but I'm not sure it's accessible to users without an account so I'll just screenshot it (ignore the 255 downvotes given, it was a joke made with a bot :D ).





There is a karma button on every post.







But you can't downvote certain types of pages, like language homepages.



This system is quite lovely. I never got bored of it and I'd be totally down to seeing it set up here if that was possible. ^^ I don't loathe downvotes, especially if we can forbid them on media pages for example  but an upvote-only system would work about the same. Besides, few people abuse it on CWS (they monitor it just in case) and I never found it to be a very warm community in the first place  unlike the CG as far as I can tell so far.

As for the vote, well, I'm too new to make up my mind rightly but I guess I'll hit the second option. :D

----------


## Tiana

> I don't like the idea of negative rep.  This forum is about encouragement and constructive criticism.  Negative rep is not constructive.


I would be very unhappy with the addition of negative karma points of any kind.

I don't like internet points at all. I rarely give rep and would rather receive a nice comment or PM.

If I like your map I will comment on it; I look at more than I comment on. I don't think the rep needs to be removed if people like it, though I will likely continue to ignore it all the same for the most part, even if it is corrected to what it should be which is +1 for +1 vote from any user.

----------


## Mark Oliva

A few chaotic remarks, seeing that I've been aware of this question for less than two minutes.

I mostly ignore rep given to me because I post for a project group.  Three people make our maps, so rep often goes to me for maps made by other members of the group.

I think a rep system is a good idea.  I think the current system is so vague that it doesn't mean much.  Why is rep given?  For a good map?  For a good idea?  For providing good information?  For providing help?  Who knows?

If I see that hypothetical member John Doe has 2 million points of rep and a rating of _Holier than god himself!_, what do I know?  Well, I know that list members think that John Doe has done a helluva lot of good stuff, but I have no idea what that good stuff is.  It could be that John Doe simply is a super online dude who never has made or posted a map.

Servus,

----------


## Yrda

If I had to decide between just +1 and +1/-1 rep, I'd also simply go for +1.
I just wasn't sure if there was a -x possible currently (since that star first reminded me of a bad cop sherriff star  :Wink:  ).

About "what are rep for" - well, I thought it can mean anything. To me a well done map is worth rep just as much as a helpful tutorial on techniques for example. For "this is a great map artist", we do have the awards, don't we? (although of course it doesn't mean that members without awards yet are not  :Smile:  )

----------


## Wingshaw

My two cents: I really like the fact that rep exists on this site. Of course, I could show my approval for something by posting a comment or rating a thread, but it doesn't hurt to have multiple methods for showing approval: sometimes I'm in the mood to write a positive comment or feedback, and sometimes I only have the time to click that little "Rep" button. That said, there is clearly an issue of inflation here. So, I hope rep remains in place, but I think it needs to be adjusted.

Also, out of interest: if rep is adjusted, is that going to be retroactively applied? If so, I imagine that'd be an absolute headache for the admins/CLs...

And lastly, an idea or suggestion: what if the rating system and rep were combined. My proposal would be that, when I add rep to someone's post, that rep goes to the post, not the member. And then, members have a rep score that is based on some amalgamation of the rep given to their posts.

[EDIT: I'm completely against negative rep. I think that goes against the nature of this place, which is all about positive feedback, constructive criticism, and honest appreciation of work]

Wingshaw

----------


## Tiana

I don't think it IS possible for the average user to do a -rep, maybe it appears as so for the CLs who may be unaware of differences in permissions between groups for things that aren't really "administrator back end".

----------


## Yrda

It might just have been a misunderstanding of mine, since I usually expect different possible options when I see a radio button. Maybe it was initially meant to work like just the thread rating, with giving more or less rep but never negative ones.

----------


## Kellerica

> I don't think it IS possible for the average user to do a -rep, maybe it appears as so for the CLs who may be unaware of differences in permissions between groups for things that aren't really "administrator back end".


Yeah, as the latest one to join ranks, I can confirm that there is a "I disapprove" option in the repping screen that only became available to me once I was bumped to CL. I was not even aware that this existed, and I really would not endorse the use of negative reputation on the Guild. As we are lucky enough to have an extremely civil and polite community here, it's really not needed. 

But in general, I do like the repping system, as I've said before. Silly as it may be, it always gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when I get repped. I would vote for drastically decreasing the amount of rep one person gives out - I think my own rep power is somewhere along 200 by now and that feels a little ridiculous, which is to say nothing of the folks dishing out 700-800 in one go.

Is it even necessary to have the amount you give out reflect what you have? I'd be perfectly happy if everyone gave out the same amount regarless their own score. 
I might go as far as to suggest we completely reset everyone's score to 0 and let people start again, although I undestand if this would ruffle some feathers.

----------


## Yrda

Resetting the score when adjusting the system seems like the most clean solution to me. Maybe a separate poll could be started about that question.

(my avatar, who completely coincidentally reacted quite happy to that rep display above, might be irritated, but that's fine  :Very Happy: )

----------


## Cédric H.

I have to agree with what has been said already.

I never really understood how the point system work with rep, I use it more as a "I really like what you did" kind of thing.  I wouldn't mind if it is converted into a simpler thing.

Also, I think being able to send a message alongside the rep is great and should remain, it feel less hollow that way than a simple like button. Negative rep is a big no no for me, that's a one way ticket to a toxic community.

Lastly, I don't think it would be fair to do a full reset, specially for the members that have been here for multiple years. 

In case a new point system is considered, my suggestion would be to divide the current points of the members into multiples tiers, for example 0-1000 tier 1, 1001-5000 tier 2 etc... and translate that into the new rep system.

----------


## Kellerica

Also, while we are talking about rep, am I the only one who is seriously annoyed at how the maxed out reputation bar doesn't align with the maximum avatar size? This little gap here is driving me insane!  :Very Happy: 




(sorry, I had to...  :Very Happy: )

----------


## Eowyn Cwper

> Resetting the score when adjusting the system seems like the most clean solution to me.


Same. ^^




> […] sometimes I'm in the mood to write a positive comment or feedback, and sometimes I only have the time to click that little "Rep" button.


Agreed!




> am I the only one who is seriously annoyed at how the maxed out reputation bar doesn't align with the maximum avatar size?


ABSOLUTELY NOT. :D

----------


## Tiana

Yeah, it's 2020, can we also have bigger avatars plz? Most people do not have a 800 pixel wide monitor anymore.

And I don't think rep should be wiped out for old users, that's 14 years of history. They earned that. But, maybe it could be adjusted so that literally everyone isn't maxed out after no time at all? Or, eliminate the visual entirely, don't adjust the point score... just hide it from other users... and just leave it as a way to leave a quick fast nice comment.

----------


## Arimel

> I have to agree with what has been said already.
> 
> I never really understood how the point system work with rep, I use it more as a "I really like what you did" kind of thing.  I wouldn't mind if it is converted into a simpler thing.


I can echo Cedric H. here. I never actually understood the system and only just found out about the score being displayed on the green bar. I did not know that was there!





> Also, while we are talking about rep, am I the only one who is seriously annoyed at how the maxed out reputation bar doesn't align with the maximum avatar size? This little gap here is driving me insane!


Completely! And the fade from dark green to light green. I always thought that it was building up to a yellow or white as 'complete'. 


To the question though, I do enjoy the rep button and use it as a like button, like others mentioned above (although I may use it a bit too frequently sometimes!). Evening out the scores being awarded is a good idea though, particularly as time progresses this will only get more out of sink. I do not think negative rep is a good idea, again for the reasons entered above about it not being constructive. Rep should be more of a compliment in a my sense.

----------


## Yrda

> Completely! And the fade from dark green to light green. I always thought that it was building up to a yellow or white as 'complete'.


About this and the width of the element compared to the avatar max/standard size:

Maybe there could be a subtle dark brown-gray "empty" bar as wide as the max avatar size and with the same width for every member. 
If the member has little rep, only a little bit of this bar is filled light green, if the member has much rep, the bar fills up light green. In any case you could always see how wide the bar can become from the beginning on.

----------


## Eowyn Cwper

Two suggestions as on how to transition to a simpler system (if we do – it seems like somewhere we could get stuck though, so I'm sorry if I'm going too fast).

1. Freeze the old rep score and leave it there for old members along with the new rep (I have 472 points, so you could have this amount to show next to my avatar to acknowledge that I was there before it all changed).
2. We know how many times a user was repped, right? Could we just convert the old rep into that (I was repped 6 times so I would have 6 rep) and let this amount go up as new upvotes are given?

----------


## Ilanthar

Although it's always pleasing to receive some kind of "rep" or "like", I value mostly the kind comments & constructive criticism, being in the thread or wrote along with the rep.

In fact, I enjoy the rep system because it's not just a like button, because it's based (yet not enough) on different factors including the participation to the guild AND because it allows to give a comment to the receiver only, which, in some occasions is kinda useful (I believe). On rare occasions, I gave rep to reward very useful comments.

To sum up, I like the idea of the rep system, but I think it should be reset & modified.

@Kellerica : now I can but only see this disturbing problem with the rep bar  :Surprised:   :Wink: !!!

----------


## Eilathen

Ah yes, the rep system. If we do talk about it, this is my chance, i guess.... 

As an idea, i like it. If I'm being honest, I liked the "I like"-Button even more.

And last but not least (but a bit tangential to the original question) : I'm a bit sad that most members seem to think that only posted maps seem worthy of rep. . I know i might be the only one (because i'm one of those very few long time members who almost never posts maps) but i think there is more that is rep. worthy. For example a good and helpful critic. But as said, that might just be me.

----------


## Styescape

Most of my ideas on rep were posted by all of you before, so here is just a summary of my opinion:

- I like the rep idea as a whole very much

- Biggest issue in my opinion ist the big gap between the value of rep coming from different people and therefore the possibility of gaining much rep with just one post, if the "right" person reps you. Don't get my wrong, I don't have a problem, if someone has a high rep! But it makes the system (or at least the shown bar) a bit obsolote, because it tells you nothing about the person's activity within the community and presented work 

- to have +1 by everyone is definitly an option. I personally would also be fine with a version, which works with almost the same system as it does now, but with a strong decrease of the boost system. What I have in mind is: you could spread more rep for years of participating, 1000 posts and the like, but it could just give you the chance to rep for example just 5 points max. with one rep, not 10000 or whatever. That wouldn't change the whole system, but could prevent a new inflation

-  to start with zero now and show the "old rep" at once might be a good idea

----------


## Redrobes

I have been out today so I have much to catch up on. Let me respond to a number of comments of which some of them were posted multiple times.

We have some options about the "what" we can do about the Rep system "if" people think it needs to change. So for now the poll is about whether it should change and by what kind of degree. It has been enlightening to see the responses so far with votes in every option. There are some limitations based on what is implemented by the vBulletin system we have and the weightings. There is a cap which at present is unused so we could do a +1 only system or we can have some other options. In theory only we could possibly retroactively adjust peoples rep scores but that might be difficult. Again, in theory we could reset them back to zero and start again but it would be difficult. I was going to run another poll about what options we have and what people might think is the best one to adopt based on the feasibility of how easy it would be to implement.

At present I know when I hit the rep button I can give negative Rep with the "I disapprove" option but then being an admin I have lots of things / options just slightly different to most members. I am not sure if only admins and CL's have that option or everybody. I know my rep is limited to +10 at the mo because I am an admin. My normal member rep power would be higher if I was not an admin but there is the option to make admin rep the same as everyone else's - which I think is a good idea TBH. It seems to be a general consensus (of which I agree with too) that we don't need negative rep on the site. If CL's & admins still get then that's not too big a deal. I have never heard of anybody ever giving negative rep at any time anyway. Please correct me if you know different. Negative scores on some sites is a useful thing esp when dealing with opinions and facts where they can be wrong and it can be useful to push some posts down rankings. But here, there is no wrong map.

At the end of the day the trophy cabinet of silver and gold compasses, and especially our highest achievement of the Annual Awards and other similar shiny things under the members icon is the best indicator of reputation but I like the idea of rep as a means for members to doff the cap to another map. The "why" you leave rep is left entirely up to those giving it. Whilst maybe specific advice or participation is deserved, normally it is given for good artwork. We have a special shiny award in the trophy cabinet for outstanding participation such as running events or organizing things above and beyond the expected level of engagement.

So to the rep bar... well I had never considered that. I will look to see how that is implemented and whether we can satisfy the OCD nature and justify it against the right hand side. I don't know if its a set of bitmaps or something else.

As for the Icon size. I think that does raise a good point. 64x64 or 80x80 is too damn small now. Not sure how the guild looks on everyones machine or device but I think the left darker brown bar is a lot wider than the icon so we ought to accommodate something about twice as wide by 1.5x high or similar. Of course that would mean that the Rep bar would have to extend that much further...

----------


## Yrda

Sounds good, Redrobes!

Just to show what I see when I press the Reputation button (and a 1920x1080 monitor)
EDIT: with a little manipulation on the avatar size and rep - 120px avatar, rep made "half empty":

Don't know what the number in the tooltip means.

And about the avatar size: 120px should be enough, what do you think? 

I'm not sure about the rep bar width - it might still look somewhat chaotic when someone doesn't use a square / full size avatar. But an increased avatar icon size could also be a motivation to create a fresh new one in the new size.  :Wink:

----------


## Falconius

Hmm.
It looks especially tiny on 4k, and that is already at 140% zoom:

----------


## Redrobes

Thanks guys - here's what I get so you can all see what I mean about the disapprove. This sounds like a non issue then as no CL would give negative rep.

I am on my laptop with smaller screen but its also interesting that were both not seeing the extra dark bit with the rep bar that you are.

----------


## Yrda

:Very Happy: 
Sorry! I should have stated that mine was a manipulation, showing how a 120px avatar with a "half empty" rep bar could look like.  :Very Happy:

----------


## Redrobes

> Sorry! I should have stated that mine was a manipulation, showing how a 120px avatar with a "half empty" rep bar could look like.


Ok.

Well I just modded the option for your avatar pics. Now you can have up to 160x120 or 409600 bytes max. It was 80x80 with 102400 bytes. So if you have a higher res copy of your avatar then re-upload a new bigger one.

----------


## Redrobes

Just modded the rep bars. There used to be 10 of them. It seemed from the code that the first 5 dark ones were for 100 rep each and the latter bright ones were for 200 pts each - you can clearly see how the person who coded the rep system intended the max rep to be about 1500. Well now the first 10 bars are dark at 1000 pts each and then the next 10 bright bars are for 5000 pts each.

Edit: I should also add that its rounded up so if you have 1pt of rep you have 1 bar and 1001 and you have two bars etc.

Also, there was a bug in the original code where the number of bars was not correct for some cases and could lead to them going down as you hit 500 pts because it was then scaling the dark bars to 200 as well as the light ones. Never noticed that before tho and its fixed now.

----------


## Yrda

Ah, this makes sense.

About the avatar: I just checked it out and uploaded a bigger image. In the settings it still says I can only use avatars that are 80x80 /100kb.
I uploaded a 120x120px avatar and it was scaled down. Maybe something about the user rights/roles?

----------


## Ilanthar

Works for me, I uploaded a rather big one (about 500 px), and it has been scaled down to the new limit numbers. So, yeah, maybe a question of rights?

And thanks for the changes & work on the topic, Red  :Wink: !

----------


## Redrobes

> About the avatar: I just checked it out and uploaded a bigger image. In the settings it still says I can only use avatars that are 80x80 /100kb.
> I uploaded a 120x120px avatar and it was scaled down. Maybe something about the user rights/roles?


Appologies - there was another group to mod. Try again now.

----------


## Redrobes

> Works for me, I uploaded a rather big one (about 500 px), and it has been scaled down to the new limit numbers. So, yeah, maybe a question of rights?
> 
> And thanks for the changes & work on the topic, Red !


No probs - I note that you have still maxed out the new rep bar ! 60,000 is the max for the bar now. Its not going to line up with someone who has a 160x120 avatar tho. I hope that this bar does not spill over to the next line for some people. I expect that the original devs for it tested it much better than I have !

----------


## Ilanthar

> *By Redrobes*
> No probs - I note that you have still maxed out the new rep bar ! 60,000 is the max for the bar now. Its not going to line up with someone who has a 160x120 avatar tho. I hope that this bar does not spill over to the next line for some people. I expect that the original devs for it tested it much better than I have !


 :Very Happy:  yes indeed!
Well, I just checked for J.Edward, it doesn't spill over.

----------


## Yrda

@Redrobes

Yup, now it says
"Note: The maximum size of your custom image is 160 by 120 pixels or 400.0 KB (whichever is smaller)."

Thank you!  :Smile:

----------


## Redrobes

> yes indeed!
> Well, I just checked for J.Edward, it doesn't spill over.


10x1000 + 10x5000 => 60,000 is the max it will go to now. 20 bars total. But I suppose somebody with 55000 or 55001 rep will max the bars because of the rounding.

I think the key to solving all of these rep issues is to assume the max is about 50,000 and scale the parameters for whatever you think deserves rep to that range.




> Yup, now it says
> "Note: The maximum size of your custom image is 160 by 120 pixels or 400.0 KB (whichever is smaller)."
> Thank you!


No problem - your avatar looks well nice when large.

----------


## Voolf

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I need your help - or at least your opinion, and I would hope that a lot of people would use the poll on this thread to let us know how you feel about the Rep system on this site.
> 
> The Rep is for reputation and shows up as the green bar and your little tag when you hover the mouse cursor over it showing how well your doing. It was added a long time ago - when I was a normal member like most people on the site. I recall the time it started and we could all dish out just our 1 rep boost to someones score for a map we liked.
> 
> The forum implements an increase to the amount that you give out based on your rep score. So if you have 1000 rep then you might give out 10 points each time. Also, for every year you have been on the site you have another point on to that score.
> 
> We have a bit of a problem which was first acknowledged many years ago when people had boosts of +13 or +20. Time has gone by and now we have some members who have multi 10,000 rep scores where they dish out > 100 pts per hit. Our highest member is about 800 at a time. For even those members they have said that they have reigned in and not given out so many hits of rep because each time they do it then it boosts that members rep score by too much in one go. I think we have the situation where one hit will take somebody up several levels at once.
> ...


I voted for "The rep system in its current form needs a complete overhaul to make it work.", but it's not like i hate it or anything. I am not bothered by rep system, but I also don't find it very useful. I like the idea behind it, that you can "reward" a member extra for a great map, but if people are refreining from giving rep because of high numbers or any other reasons, this whole thing starting to loose sense. Why this have to be so complicated. instead of some raising numbers based on rep given and rep recived, every rep can be worth 1 all the time. No matter who gives it and when.


Anyway, for me the rep system can be gone completaly. There are more pressing matters than this and it's quite outdated forum. I would love to have move advaned forum here, where you get notifications on every topic you have discussed without the need of subscription. The ability to tag people @ so that when somebody is marked at a theard that never posted, can be inforemd about it and respond.

A implemented tag system could makes miracles in organizing and seaching threads, not only for everyday search but even for selecting maps for annual awards etc.

As for the reputation, for me it always stood for how much a member of the forum is helpful to the others. This is usually what new members think. We have had new members asking what is rep for on this site over and over including me long time ago. Instead of rep i would like to see maybe a reaction to post option when you can choose an icon like Thank you / Like it / Wow etc.

Lastly as much as i like the thematic guild skin and I appreciate making it. I would also appreciate some new/other light skins which i like more. Doesn't have to match the theme of the guild.

----------


## Redrobes

Thanks Voolf for all of those comments. Personally I am with you with the option of complete overhaul. Maybe to start with it worked but I havent felt like it has been working for a long while. Perhaps some tweaks would make it better but there is a limit to what can be done but at present its not working for me.

Just also to say that under your profile settings there is a skin option. There are only a couple of skins to pick from and the default is this brown one but there is an option to pick one which is white and light blue. So you may find that preferable. Perhaps we could think about some more skins and see whats involved in making a new one and then we might be able to run a competition to make up some more and the best of them could be implemented as options in your settings.

----------


## Voolf

> Just also to say that under your profile settings there is a skin option. There are only a couple of skins to pick from and the default is this brown one but there is an option to pick one which is white and light blue. So you may find that preferable. Perhaps we could think about some more skins and see whats involved in making a new one and then we might be able to run a competition to make up some more and the best of them could be implemented as options in your settings.


Hey, yes i know about that skin, unfortunately it's kinda poor ;(, probably because it was designed for mobile.
Anyway skin it on the very bottom on my list. More important stuff are tagging people in post, make tags for threads, make notification for users etc. This probably wont work without new forum or new version of vbulletin....

----------


## Eowyn Cwper

I went through the skins' list on my first day here, thinking I could find something more modern than the brown theme, but I quickly got back to it – I actually don't mind it that much anymore. Modernizing the forum sounds like an enormous workload but I would totally be down to see that happen!

----------


## Mark Oliva

> At the end of the day the trophy cabinet of silver and gold compasses, and especially our highest achievement of the Annual Awards and other similar shiny things under the members icon is the best indicator of reputation but I like the idea of rep as a means for members to doff the cap to another map. The "why" you leave rep is left entirely up to those giving it. Whilst maybe specific advice or participation is deserved, normally it is given for good artwork. We have a special shiny award in the trophy cabinet for outstanding participation such as running events or organizing things above and beyond the expected level of engagement..


If rep were to focus completely or almost completely upon maps, I would move into the _ignore_ category.  Looking at other people's maps is quite interesting; I do it regularly.  But what's important to me about this guild is the exchange of ideas and advice, not the individual maps.  I have repped a few maps, but almost all of the rep that I've been given has been for ideas, useful information and advice.

Servus,

----------


## Tiana

> Instead of rep i would like to see maybe a reaction to post option when you can choose an icon like Thank you / Like it / Wow etc.


Yes, some forums I am on have a plug in that lets you click 'thanks' on a post and then it shows a list of who said 'thank you' for that post. I like that the rep here lets you write a message though, but it would be interesting to see who said thanks for what post, so we can see what was considered useful advice? Since I get more rep for me writing useful things about the business of mapping than I do for my art, like Mark Oliva posted as well.




> Thanks Voolf for all of those comments. Personally I am with you with the option of complete overhaul. Maybe to start with it worked but I havent felt like it has been working for a long while. Perhaps some tweaks would make it better but there is a limit to what can be done but at present its not working for me.
> 
> Just also to say that under your profile settings there is a skin option. There are only a couple of skins to pick from and the default is this brown one but there is an option to pick one which is white and light blue. So you may find that preferable. Perhaps we could think about some more skins and see whats involved in making a new one and then we might be able to run a competition to make up some more and the best of them could be implemented as options in your settings.


Here's a couple of light color skins (we'd just want to replace with an appropriate banner)
I like the brown skin. I like that it's old fashioned, just like our maps. It's straight outta 2006.

https://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=325434
https://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=233455

That said, I know how to make basic phpbb forum skins too. I assume it's basically the same kind of CSS reskin with vbulletin.

I think it would be neat if we did a competition for some new banners and made them rotate through different banners.  :Smile: 

If we update, just please, please, don't take that damn forum base that Nanowrimo switched to. They switched to Discourse. I'd rather eat a raw onion like an apple than use that mangled wannabe social media platform. If I wanted to be on Reddit or Instagram or Twitter I'd be on there. It killed my willingness to participate on that forum ever again. The latest version of VB? Phpbb? No prob! Should we? .......maybe. There's great plugins that are not usable by us because we're on VB4, and people are making for VB5. I'm pretty sure we can still port over all the posts and etc. I'd just be terrified of messing up the attachment system, a vital portion of this forum would be destroyed if old attachments were accidentally unlinked.

----------


## Kellerica

Well, damn, now I'll have to make a fancy new avatar! The old one was tailored specifically for the small size... This should be fun!  :Very Happy: 

Also for the forum skins, please please don't take the brown Guild look away from me! I love it!

----------


## ChickPea

> The latest version of VB? Phpbb? No prob! Should we? .......maybe. There's great plugins that are not usable by us because we're on VB4, and people are making for VB5. I'm pretty sure we can still port over all the posts and etc. I'd just be terrified of messing up the attachment system, a vital portion of this forum would be destroyed if old attachments were accidentally unlinked.


IIRC, Robbie purchased the VB5 upgrade a while back, but the problem was (at that time) it didn't support the awards system that we have (i.e. the compasses for challenge winners/Atlas Awards winners etc.). He posted about it here. Since then, I think Robbie's just got really busy with work and a growing family, and it's pretty much been put on the backburner.

Not gonna lie, I would *love* to get rid of the brown...  :Wink:

----------


## Voolf

> IIRC, Robbie purchased the VB5 upgrade a while back, but the problem was (at that time) it didn't support the awards system that we have (i.e. the compasses for challenge winners/Atlas Awards winners etc.). He posted about it here. Since then, I think Robbie's just got really busy with work and a growing family, and it's pretty much been put on the backburner.
> 
> Not gonna lie, I would *love* to get rid of the brown...


Well, there seems to be an award system for new VB, but I have no idea if that is easy to implement or not for Robbie.




> please please don't take the brown Guild look away from me! I love it!


Nobody wants to take it away, i simply said i would like to have an additional one  :Wink:

----------


## Redrobes

There are no plans to change to another forum type and ChickPea is right in that we have some issues upgrading the version of this one. Whilst there are lots of small issues with it, in general its been working pretty well and I don't think we need to change that. In any case we would need Robbies input a lot to make any kind of significant change to the site and he has been busy for some time. As for skins, we could add a few more but thats a bit on the back burner for now.

----------


## Tiana

I'm pretty sure skins that don't require custom images but just a color reskin don't need administrative FTP access, but can be done in the admin CP?

That said, I still like the brown just fine, though I understand that many people might also like to have black text on white or light.

----------


## Redrobes

I'll look into skins after we fix up the rep issues. If I can work out exactly how to modify it and all of the images then we might have a little compo to design some new ones such as terrain skin or futurist skin etc.

----------


## Voolf

> I'll look into skins after we fix up the rep issues. If I can work out exactly how to modify it and all of the images then we might have a little compo to design some new ones such as terrain skin or futurist skin etc.


Not sure how do you want to redesign it, but for me as i said before whoever and whenever should have ability to rep post once with a power of 1 all the time.
That being said, people who do care about the rep and ranks (but have it low now) may never catch up with those who already have big number. May be unfair to them...
On the other hand, if you reset the rep for everyone and start again, people who have worked hard for heir rep and will loose it now can get angry....
Tought desicion.

----------


## Yrda

Do you have an overview of the current rep ranges of old and active members that still look "reasonable"?

What are the current rep level ranges? (e.g. level 0 = 0, level 1 = 100 - 500, level 2 = 501 - 2000 ...)
If there is a level cap set not too high/low, maybe it isn't a problem that newer members will never be able to catch up with the numbers, but they could catch up with the level itself (with level I mean the wording, like "has a rep beyond repute").

Maybe there could also be a way to earn rep points when actively participating in a challenge for those who didn't win it? (but as I understood this already happens "manually" because members here are nice and give rep to their competitors or entries they also liked  :Smile:  )

----------


## Redrobes

> Do you have an overview of the current rep ranges of old and active members that still look "reasonable"?


I was going to run through this on the what to do about it post but since you asked ill list them here now:

User is an unknown quantity at this point = 0
User is on a distinguished road = 10
User will become famous soon enough = 50
User has a spectacular aura about = 150
User is a jewel in the rough = 250
User is just really nice = 350
User is a glorious beacon of light = 450
User is a name known to all = 550
User is a splendid one to behold = 650
User has much to be proud of = 1000
User has a brilliant future = 1500
User has a reputation beyond repute = 2000

And you can see that with the old system the full rep bar being 1500 the expectation of the developer of the reputation system was that you went up to about 1500 - 2000 and you were done. Now the full bar is set to 55000 - 60000 and these bands need to be re-calibrated to reflect the stages of progress to that amount.

We need to set a cap and we need to re-calibrate the amount of power that a user increases the amounts when they get hit with rep. That is a question for a poll. We could have everyone do +10 or +50 or we could scale it based on some parameters. But the key is that the most somebody should be able to rep needs to be capped at some value and the new members need to start with a value that is a lot higher than 1 so that scores of 60000 doesn't seem out of reach. The exact values we can discuss.

We have the ability to edit the names of them and the amounts and we can add new levels. So I think it would make sense to have 20 of them at one per bar so in increments of about 1000 each for first ten and 4000 each for second ten. Clearly some people will have already maxed out their rep bar but to rescale the actual amount of rep people have got would mean hitting the back end database and there is much scope to have the system end up in a weird state. So I would rather avoid changing peoples values. But I think that lower level people need to be able to rep more than 1 point and the higher level people need to rep by a LOT less than 800 at a time. Maybe it starts at 10 and goes up to 50 or starts at 20 and goes up to 100 or maybe everyone just gets 10 or 50 or something.

Top all time poster is Ravells at about 11,000. Longest member here is obviously Robbie at about 2006. Highest Rep member is J.Edwards at about 85,000 or so. I think that the top 50 longest serving members should have max rep power, the top 50 posters should also and the top rep people too. So *if* we agreed that the rep should be between +20 and a cap of +100 for example then the scale needs to reflect the amount of bonus rep to about +20 and then +1 per 60 days on the forum, or +1 per 1000 rep, or +1 per 100 posts or thereabouts. Those kinds of values would even it out much more than +1 for this +1 for that and +275 for the current rep value like we have at present. J.Edward can hit a new member with one rep hit and they jump 8 levels out of 10. Its madness where we are at the mo.

----------


## Azélor

I'm all in favour of changing how rep is awarded, retroactively if possible. 
Right now, the system is a useful as a Venezuelian Bolivar. It doesn't tell anything about how great or helpful someone is. 

I would either go with a +1 for every time you rep, 
Or using a logarithmic scale, as someone already mentioned. So long term members with a lot of rep still have a bit more power.

----------


## J.Edward

I don't feel any need to have any more rep power than anyone else.

edit - i must have missed something.. big avatars  :Surprised:

----------


## Tiana

> I don't feel any need to have any more rep power than anyone else.
> 
> edit - i must have missed something.. big avatars


I asked, I received.

Suggestions

User is an unknown quantity at this point = 0
User is on a distinguished road = 10
User will become famous soon enough = 50
User has a spectacular aura about = 150
User is a jewel in the rough = 250
User is just really nice = 350
User is a glorious beacon of light = 450
User is a name known to all = 550
User is a splendid one to behold = 650
User has much to be proud of = 1000
User has a brilliant future = 1500
User has a reputation beyond repute = 2000
User is a magnificent human being = 3000
User took the ring to Mordor, though they did not know the way = 4000
User is a wise example to us all = 5000
The Force is strong with this user = 6000
User won the Game of Thrones = 7000
User has brought honor to us all = 8000
User has earned the respect and honor of the guild = 9000
User inspires the nations to artistic horizons = 10000
User discovered a new island= 11000
User mapped an entire new continent = 12000
User did not change after the Fire Nation attacked = 13000
User defeated a bear in single hand to hand combat = 14000
User saved Earth from an alien invasion = 15000
User has inspired the generations to come = 16000
User is a paragon of artistic prowess = 17000
User has contributed more than we could ask or imagine = 18000
User is an invaluable member of the guild with timeless repute = 19000
User has redefined contemporary cartography as we know it = 20000

----------


## ChickPea

Haha, I love this scale, Tiana! I'm currently saving the Earth from alien invasion, having just wrestled a bear, and frankly I feel no need to go higher!  :Razz: 

I don't know how many options you're allowed (it may be less than what you've listed), but I think this is fab.  :Very Happy:

----------


## Voolf

> Top all time poster is Ravells at about 11,000. Longest member here is obviously Robbie at about 2006. Highest Rep member is J.Edwards at about 85,000 or so. I think that the top 50 longest serving members should have max rep power, the top 50 posters should also and the top rep people too. So *if* we agreed that the rep should be between +20 and a cap of +100 for example then the scale needs to reflect the amount of bonus rep to about +20 and then +1 per 60 days on the forum, or +1 per 1000 rep, or +1 per 100 posts or thereabouts. Those kinds of values would even it out much more than +1 for this +1 for that and +275 for the current rep value like we have at present. J.Edward can hit a new member with one rep hit and they jump 8 levels out of 10. Its madness where we are at the mo.


This seems still way to complicated. As I see it, every user that is past 5 post should have same rep power without any rising number. I also don't need the levels. Just the number of reputation.

Btw. J.E. will probably now refrain from giving rep away even more after reading this  :Smile:

----------


## Greg

I remember when I first joined the Guild and got my first rep, it was a pretty good feeling. At the start, I was almost having an unofficial competition with JosiahVE (who joined at almost the same time) to see who could get the most. We kept jumping ahead of one another and that was quite fun!  :Smile: 

Having said that, that only lasted a few months, because of our various activity and also because the huge amounts of rep available kinda made it tricky as our maps both got better. I like to give rep now and again, because I remember and appreciate when it was given to me particularly at the start, but equally there definitely is an inflation problem!!

I think Voolf's suggestion of a +1 power across the board would definitely solve the problem, but I can understand if some think it too drastic (it was nice getting those sudden injections of rep that boosted the little green bar!!) A rep power cap might be the way forwards, but it's hard to know what that cap should be. The longevity power boost is kinda a cool idea along with the post boost, but as I said it's hard to know what numbers are right, though your last suggestion Redrobes sounds like it could work:

"So *if* we agreed that the rep should be between +20 and a cap of +100 for example then the scale needs to reflect the amount of bonus rep to about +20 and then +1 per 60 days on the forum, or +1 per 1000 rep, or +1 per 100 posts or thereabouts."

Also: new avatar sizes!!!  :Very Happy:

----------


## Tiana

> Haha, I love this scale, Tiana! I'm currently saving the Earth from alien invasion, having just wrestled a bear, and frankly I feel no need to go higher! 
> 
> I don't know how many options you're allowed (it may be less than what you've listed), but I think this is fab.


Well, some of the ones I listed are somewhat redundant, but what can I say, "wrestled a bear" is an excellent indication of your prowess as a cartographer, right?! ...At least at one time.

----------


## - JO -

For my part, I really like being able to express approval or admiration for a post or a map. Being able to add a few words is just as essential. 

So I'm very attached to the REP system: for me, who doesn't have a very good opinion of myself as a cartographer, it's a real encouragement to keep going, to try to progress... I can say that it's a real driving force and I'm extremely grateful to the guild members who gave me rep and/or added a little word. 

I'm also extremely happy to be able to give some: I'm not native english speaking, the work doesn't leave me as much time as I would like to participate in discussions, post a comment that manages to make it clear what I like (and what I like less) about a map. REP allows me to do this in a few words. 

I didn't have a complete understanding of how it worked, now that I know more, there may be an imbalance, but it will never take away the pleasure I get from giving or receiving REP. I think it's very important to keep an approval system, which can be circumstantiated with a few words, but avoids  negative points.

----------


## Arimel

> I asked, I received.
> 
> Suggestions
> 
> User is an unknown quantity at this point = 0
> User is on a distinguished road = 10
> User will become famous soon enough = 50
> User has a spectacular aura about = 150
> ...
> ...



Well ain't that something? Really great classification here!


I agree with Greg about the rep itself. When I got my first rep I was beaming for a day or two afterwards. To be honest, having everyone give a flat rep boost makes the most sense to me. It does create a problem for those with insane amounts of rep power already, as no one will ever catch them. I know I would not mind having my Rep reset (even after such a terrifying game of thrones experience...) but I completely understand those that have been here much longer not exactly relishing this idea. A possible idea is to put a medal/mention on the profile part of the account to say "Rep gained before _____" or something like that, just to commemorate the amounts/previous work.

----------


## Redrobes

Those classifications are great. I think it would be best to tie them to the amounts to get a new green pip on the rep-o-meter. Resetting everyones rep is not easy to do so is not an option that id like to consider at this point. We have options for the amount of rep we give out which relates to the time since registered, amount of rep you have, and posts and we have a cap amount. The sentiment looks like we have a fixed amount for everyone and go with it regardless of time, posts or current rep which is fine. But that would need to be somewhere around the 20 - 50 range instead of 1 considering that to be "full" you need about 50,000-60,000. So its a question now of how many times one needs to rep another in order to get them full.

----------


## Greason Wolfe

I think the idea of disconnecting Rep Power from Rep Received is a good one.  In thinking about what's left after that, it seems reasonable to give long standing and highly active members some sort of recognition as well, and going with a flat value wouldn't really achieve that.  If we started at +1 simply for being a member then gave and additional +1 for each year of membership along with an additional +1 for every X number of posts (I'd probably go with every 500, and round it down every time), that would bring the Rep Power down to reasonable levels.  As for each members current Rep Received value, I would imagine that editing those numbers might become a real headache, especially if they are not stored in some sort of data file on the back end of the system.  If they are easily accessible/editable, maybe dividing them by a simple value would be the easiest way to go.

Edit: Oh, and maybe a +1 for being a CL/Admin type of member. Again, it seems reasomable to me to reward people for their efforts when it comes to keeping this place running as smoothly as possible.

Edit 2: I'll also echo what some of the others have mentioned in that it would be nice to have a "Like/Thanks" button for posts.  I know a number of people here have answered questions or offered suggestions that I've benefited from and it would be nice to show appreciation for that publicly without always having to create a new post to do so.

@Tiana - Great descriptions. I got a good chuckle out of some of them.

----------


## Redrobes

Ok so we seem to have run out of discussion about how you feel about the rep system right now and whether we need to do something about it. I have closed the poll and the result was very informative. I appreciate all of the voters and especially those who made the unusual choices and being bold about their opinions. We have a fairly even spread with one clear winner in that it needs a bit of tweaking.

I will start a new thread shortly along with a new poll about the guts of what exactly can be implemented and in what form you want to see that implementation. Many of you have already expressed an opinion about what needs to happen in this thread. I have read and taken in these comments and ill just recap them all and ensure that they are options in the new poll. But even if you have nothing more to add to it in comment form, then it might clarify the outcome of the new poll if you vote for the option which you requested here.

So lets call a halt to this thread and ill start a new one since I dont think its possible to have two polls in the one thread.

----------

