# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  Twin River City [WIP]

## XCali

Hi everyone,  :Smile: 

I'm busy planning and drawing a city map for the purpose of using it for tabletop.
As this is quite a complicated map, I wanted to get some feedback on the guild.

This planning phase is drawn on an A3 so I'm leaving actual scanning for later on. So sorry if the phone pic is a bit strange.  :Razz: 




I am asking for thoughts how you guys think I should proceed.


Further along version below:

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## XCali

Hi everyone!

Hope you are doing well. 
I thought I'd post an update.

I added in the market and bazaar area and a lot of the more pricey area of the city. And I started with the common area.

Feedback is welcome.  :Wink: 

### Latest WIP ###

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## aeshnidae

It's look great, XCali! I especially like how you've drawn the city gates, although it looks slightly off to have the wall going "over" the gates. I like the different building shapes, and I'm very curious about the structure with 3 round parts connected by more narrow passageways. I also think you've done a nice job at having the city spread out over the two cliffs. 

Are there specific areas where you're looking for feedback? Because you're going to use this in-game, are you going to highlight different neighborhoods or specific areas? One thing I've learned from my players is they prefer labels over the map, rather than numbers and a legend, so they immediately know where their PCs are located. But every player is different and mine seem particularly challenged, probably because our healing potions are usually alcoholic.  :Wink:

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## XCali

> It's look great, XCali! I especially like how you've drawn the city gates, although it looks slightly off to have the wall going "over" the gates. I like the different building shapes, and I'm very curious about the structure with 3 round parts connected by more narrow passageways. I also think you've done a nice job at having the city spread out over the two cliffs. 
> 
> Are there specific areas where you're looking for feedback? Because you're going to use this in-game, are you going to highlight different neighborhoods or specific areas? One thing I've learned from my players is they prefer labels over the map, rather than numbers and a legend, so they immediately know where their PCs are located. But every player is different and mine seem particularly challenged, probably because our healing potions are usually alcoholic.


Hehehe, thanks!
I'm trying to add as much variety in my building shapes. I have a feeling that promotes the imagination to creating stories  :Razz: . I'm not yet at a place of deciding what exactly the more unique buildings are, but I am getting there.  :Wink:  The wall over the gate thing, I can understand that and I have no idea why I did it that way. But, I'm still in the pencil only stage, so it can change if it really is jarring.  :Smile: 

The label feedback is good. I can even create multiple versions of it. One without, one with just words and one with numbers and a legend. I think the feedback I desperately need is what is needed for a city map that is used for a RPG or what would be cool to be added to one. I love the idea of table top RPG's, but I have never had the privilege to play one sadly. I create maps for others to play on it for now.  :Razz:  

I'll send an update tomorrow.  :Wink:  Thanks for checking it out.

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## XCali

Okay, here is an update. I fleshed out the more common area and added the Theater's bazaar and the Grand bazaar is in the richer districts. I did leave quite a few areas for trees. 
Anyway, I'm getting closer to where I'm going to pen over. So, any feedback that make this city better is very welcome.
### Latest WIP ###

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## aeshnidae

> The label feedback is good. I can even create multiple versions of it. One without, one with just words and one with numbers and a legend. I think the feedback I desperately need is what is needed for a city map that is used for a RPG or what would be cool to be added to one. I love the idea of table top RPG's, but I have never had the privilege to play one sadly. I create maps for others to play on it for now.


Multiple versions, labeled and not, are always good for RPGs. As for what is needed on a city map, I've learned that it's very dependent on the players. But if I'm not sure what the PCs need or how the players will act, I follow a few rules of thumb. For a large city, I usually break it down by neighborhood or district so the players have an idea of what they might find in a certain area. For instance, I usually have a Scholar's District so that the PCs can track down certain books or talk to people who can give them key bits of information (this is usually where the mages live, too). I always have a Market District so the PCs can re-supply or purchase specialty items and an Artisan's District (or Craftsmen's District) so they can have repairs done to their belongings. I have a Royal District or Noble District or Administrative District where the fancy people live and run the town, city, or perhaps kingdom; often this is next to a Military District, or at least some barracks where members of the city guard live. Usually I have a Guild District because two of the PCs belong to guilds, and they can usually find safety with their fellow guild members and brush up on current events.  

For settlements smaller than a large city (and sometimes for districts within a large city), I note specific buildings - public buildings (where the PCs might be able to exchange money, make use of weights and measures, send messages, or pay to have valuables stored), theaters, stables, temples, taverns/inns, festival fields, etc. For decently sized settlements, I always have several taverns and/or inns and I give them distinct names and personalities (the Freeman's Rest is a classy inn frequented by well-to-do merchants; the Bawdy Brewer is a rough and tumble honky-tonk tavern with a boxing ring in the basement). I also name certain shops, such as apothecaries and magic shops (where those exist). Then there's stuff like parks, commonly-held farms and orchards, and various types of housing. If a town/city is known for something in particular, I make sure to include that. My town of Brynehall, for instance, exports whiskey and wool, so it has a distillery and a wool mill visible on the town map. 

You can also forgo names and just use icons - a mug for taverns, a sword for weapons merchants, a breastplate for the armorer, etc. 

I think your most recent city map layout looks great! Adding the common area and bazaars definitely gives it the feel of a bustling city.  :Smile:

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## XCali

> Multiple versions, labeled and not, are always good for RPGs. As for what is needed on a city map, I've learned that it's very dependent on the players. But if I'm not sure what the PCs need or how the players will act, I follow a few rules of thumb. For a large city, I usually break it down by neighborhood or district so the players have an idea of what they might find in a certain area. For instance, I usually have a Scholar's District so that the PCs can track down certain books or talk to people who can give them key bits of information (this is usually where the mages live, too). I always have a Market District so the PCs can re-supply or purchase specialty items and an Artisan's District (or Craftsmen's District) so they can have repairs done to their belongings. I have a Royal District or Noble District or Administrative District where the fancy people live and run the town, city, or perhaps kingdom; often this is next to a Military District, or at least some barracks where members of the city guard live. Usually I have a Guild District because two of the PCs belong to guilds, and they can usually find safety with their fellow guild members and brush up on current events.  
> 
> For settlements smaller than a large city (and sometimes for districts within a large city), I note specific buildings - public buildings (where the PCs might be able to exchange money, make use of weights and measures, send messages, or pay to have valuables stored), theaters, stables, temples, taverns/inns, festival fields, etc. For decently sized settlements, I always have several taverns and/or inns and I give them distinct names and personalities (the Freeman's Rest is a classy inn frequented by well-to-do merchants; the Bawdy Brewer is a rough and tumble honky-tonk tavern with a boxing ring in the basement). I also name certain shops, such as apothecaries and magic shops (where those exist). Then there's stuff like parks, commonly-held farms and orchards, and various types of housing. If a town/city is known for something in particular, I make sure to include that. My town of Brynehall, for instance, exports whiskey and wool, so it has a distillery and a wool mill visible on the town map. 
> 
> You can also forgo names and just use icons - a mug for taverns, a sword for weapons merchants, a breastplate for the armorer, etc. 
> 
> I think your most recent city map layout looks great! Adding the common area and bazaars definitely gives it the feel of a bustling city.


Wow that post is filled to the brim with good ideas! Thanks! The just icons map is also a stellar addition to a multiple set of maps for this one.  :Very Happy: 
I added a mining village close to the mountains today and two lighthouses and quite a few extra tidbits. But I'll post it tomorrow if I can. Also, I'm getting closer to wanting to tackle the old ruins part of the city. Anything you'd like to see there?  :Wink: 

Really thanks for discussing this with me. It helps in getting me thinking about what should go where and what would be fun for players.

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## OldEarth

Looking really good!  I love your layout and road configuration in particular!

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## ChickPea

This is looking great. Interested to see your next update.

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## XCali

Heya! 
Here is a quick update!

### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

Hi!
Sorry yesterday's update came out a bit blurry. My bad  :Razz: 

### Latest WIP ###

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## aeshnidae

> Wow that post is filled to the brim with good ideas! Thanks! The just icons map is also a stellar addition to a multiple set of maps for this one. 
> I added a mining village close to the mountains today and two lighthouses and quite a few extra tidbits. But I'll post it tomorrow if I can. Also, I'm getting closer to wanting to tackle the old ruins part of the city. Anything you'd like to see there? 
> 
> Really thanks for discussing this with me. It helps in getting me thinking about what should go where and what would be fun for players.


Oh good, I'm really glad that was helpful! I never quite know if I'm blabbing too much.  :Wink:  The latest WIP looks fantastic! The mining village is a great addition. As for ruins...oh geez, so many ideas! An old fighting pit, a temple to a lost god/goddess (no longer worshiped, but if the PCs stumble upon a relic, perhaps He/She will return), a black market...

I thought I had subscribed to this thread, but apparently not. I shall do so immediately.  :Smile:

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## XCali

Hi!

Today's update is not extra city buildings, but a bigger picture with a filter to do away with the blurriness of cellphone photos.  :Razz:  I'm yet to actually pen in the city, so this is just for making it clearer for now.
Also, I added quite a few labels so that we can discuss it here. Everything can be renamed, and would like to hear your ideas on names, but for this version I went with what came from the top of my head.  :Smile: 
Though there are certain parts on the map that is still a head scratcher for me, so I am quite eager to brainstorm with you all on them. 
### Latest WIP ###



--
(If anybody ever tells me city maps are easy to do, I will pull off my gloves and challenge them to a duel! City maps are a lot of planning and fine detail work! O_o )

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## XCali

Hi!

I went away for the weekend, was crazy cold but fun.  :Razz: 
Anyhoo, I took this with a more beefy camera, so it came out a bit sharper than the phone pics. This one I added in some roof detail across the entire map.  It is also the last photo before I started penning in stuff.

I am still early on in my penning in phase, so if there is anything you think I should change, please let me know.
As for my previous post, that is the city plan going forward, though there are still quite a few question marks on the map, so please let me know what is your thoughts.

### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

Ahoi! 
Hope you all have been well.  :Wink: 

Today I wanted to post my latest update where I had penned over most of the map. There are still questions hanging, however. So, I would like to ask your advice on a few things.

1: The name of the city is giving me a hard time. The twin river thing was just a place holder. I want something that has oomf but at the moment I am a bit stumped. Anyway, I did think of one so far, but I would like to here suggestions from you all too. Mine was *Akker* ?

Also, if you check my previous post, there was a label planning phase. The places with the question marks are stumping me at the moment. Just the one place on the cliff I have had some improvement on. Any ideas are welcome.  :Wink: 

### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

Hi!

I started playing around with the style I want for this map. There is still some work left with the penning in, but playing around with it got a good look for me. 
The name of the city is still hard to figure out.
Feedback is more than welcome.  :Wink: 

### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

Heya!  :Very Happy: 

I be back.

Okay, so today a lot was accomplished.  :Smile:  First off, I added highlights, core shadows and cast shadows to the mountains. It came out quite well. I would like know what you all think of it. 
Secondly, I added cast shadows to a few buildings, the wall and the cliffs to test things out. This is not a thing I have spent a huge load of times on in my previous maps, so it  is still a learning process.
Thirdly, I added a toned down water color to the map. 
Also, I added a little fun signature thing up top left.  :Razz: 
The trees are still in the planning phase for those wondering about the blank spaces inside the city.

Anyway, I really would like to hear what you all are thinking.  :Wink:  Do you like the direction I'm going with the style?

### Latest WIP ###

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## Adfor

Ahhh this gets more and more impressive as you continue to add details!  Now that the water is colored and the mountains shaded you can really see how the city sits.  Very nice work!

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## XCali

> Ahhh this gets more and more impressive as you continue to add details!  Now that the water is colored and the mountains shaded you can really see how the city sits.  Very nice work!


Hehe, thank you!  :Razz: 
It came out better than I hoped. This was the first time I did top down mountains and so I was a bit nervous. But, the shading and the highlights really made it pop. 
Just interest sake, what do you think I should name the city?  :Smile:

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## Adfor

> Hehe, thank you! 
> It came out better than I hoped. This was the first time I did top down mountains and so I was a bit nervous. But, the shading and the highlights really made it pop. 
> Just interest sake, what do you think I should name the city?


The dark complexion it has going on makes my think of a desert port city, though I'd have to brainstorm a bit over a name, but I imagine is would end in -port.  I'll get back with you on some names soon!

Edit: How about Solaceport!

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## XCali

> The dark complexion it has going on makes my think of a desert port city, though I'd have to brainstorm a bit over a name, but I imagine is would end in -port.  I'll get back with you on some names soon!
> 
> Edit: How about Solaceport!


The desert comment made me think of giving the buildings and the wall a more earthy color.
Solace? Sounds intriguing. I'll keep it mind. 
It doesn't need the port. It is not a must have for a port city. Take Hong Kong for example, no port in the name. But, it is one heck of a sea trading city as far as I know.

What about Akker 
or City of Preaska?

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## XCali

Heya!

Today I tried something and it worked beautifully!  :Very Happy: 
First off I added a nice and earthy color for the walls. I tried a color for the roads, but it is still up in the air.

Now, what came out nicely was when I added both cast shadows and core shadows to some of the main buildings.
### Latest WIP ###


There are still a few things I am wondering about, like that empty circle in the right side of the city, I am not sure what to put there...
Anyway, let me know what you think and have a nice day.  :Wink:

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## Adfor

I like what you did with the wall colors, though I think a bit brighter of a brown/tan color would serve better to make the streets pop against all the dark line work, not too bright though, as the overall complexion is fairly dark.

Solace just popped into mind so I ran with it, it's usually somewhat difficult to think up a compelling name without a little backstory/major landmarks/culture put forth.  It will look really good when all the shadows are in place, and every right now it's great great work, Cali.

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## XCali

> I like what you did with the wall colors, though I think a bit brighter of a brown/tan color would serve better to make the streets pop against all the dark line work, not too bright though, as the overall complexion is fairly dark.
> 
> Solace just popped into mind so I ran with it, it's usually somewhat difficult to think up a compelling name without a little backstory/major landmarks/culture put forth.  It will look really good when all the shadows are in place, and every right now it's great great work, Cali.


I'll see if the brighter wall color would do better. Though, the colors are quite saturated, so it will probably have to be kept lower.
Thanks.
I just realized how much time will have to be spent on the rest of the city's shadows. But, I agree  :Razz: 

The story will come when I feel most of the grind work of the city is done.

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## XCali

Helloa!  :Very Happy: 

Today I threw a few extra core shadows on the mountains and cliffs. 
Then the grind began..... I wanted to do the ROOF shadows from rest of the city. As I started doing them, I realized this is going to be a crazy amount of work. Luckily the inspiration hit me, so I created a Layer: Roof Solid Shadow. Then, I proceeded to paint ever roof's shadow side with a SOLID blue color. It took some time, five hours + to be more precise. But, it would have taken a lot more to tailor each shadow on their roofs. 
In the end I could Alpha to selection the roofs and create a layer: Roof Shadows. Throwing a black into the selection and then just turning down the Opacity of the layer and whallah. Just one more thing. I threw a Gausian blur of 2 points on that layer to take away any stray rigid lines.

Just to admit, I am reeeeeally happy to be mostly finished with the Roof shadows in a single day.  :Very Happy: 
_Next time_ I'm tackling the core shadows and cast shadows of the buildings....

>>*Question, what do you all think I should add to the islands next to the bridge?*

### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

Hi  :Wink: 

Edit: Humor me, I thought of a name that could be fitting. The city of *Thunder Cliffs* 
What do you think?  :Razz: 

Today, was a lot of repetitive work. I did the Cast shadows for the houses. I wanted to do it for the entire city today, but it got to me when I finished half of it, so I took a breather. Half of the cast shadows are about done, it might be good to see the difference between the two halves of the city.
I used the same technique with the roofs, just added using the roof selection to make it less frustrating.  :Razz: 

Anyway, here we go. 

### Latest WIP ###

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## Adfor

You can totally tell the difference between the two sides, the northwest portion has so much more depth now!  

Thunder Cliffs is quite compelling, but are there many thunder storms there?

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## XCali

> You can totally tell the difference between the two sides, the northwest portion has so much more depth now!  
> 
> Thunder Cliffs is quite compelling, but are there many thunder storms there?


Cool beans! 

Yeah, I think I am at 80% for naming it Thunder Cliffs or Thunder Rock. It is something where the story can go there are common thunder storms in the area, or the sea hitting the cliffs sound like rumbling thunder. 

Can I ask you and anyone who wish to also answer. Do you like the style of where I am going with this map?  :Smile:

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## XCali

Helloa!

This one I just finished the casting shadows of the buildings, and I brightened up the original drawn city layer.

### Latest WIP ###
EDIT: The link didn't work for some reason. Though instead of re-uploading it here, I will post it to the next page.  :Wink:

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## aeshnidae

For some reason, that last attachment didn't take. But I'm looking at the map you posted yesterday and WHOA, you've made amazing progress! Thanks for walking through your process for the roof shadows, too. It's always good to learn what others are doing. Adding the Gaussian blur was genius. 

I'm absolutely loving the style, and I think Thunder Cliffs is a good name. I also just now noticed the beach/cove on the west side - fantastic!

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## XCali

> For some reason, that last attachment didn't take. But I'm looking at the map you posted yesterday and WHOA, you've made amazing progress! Thanks for walking through your process for the roof shadows, too. It's always good to learn what others are doing. Adding the Gaussian blur was genius. 
> 
> I'm absolutely loving the style, and I think Thunder Cliffs is a good name. I also just now noticed the beach/cove on the west side - fantastic!


Hehehe, thank you for the kind words.  :Smile: 

I'll see to re-upload the map again tomorrow when I get back to my PC. 

Thanks! Luckily, I've used gausian blur quite often for different things, so it was  a no brainer. I was glad for it, otherwise I would have had to sit with low opacity eraser on each individual shadow 0_o 

I am glad you like the style.  :Smile:  It is definitely waaaaay outside of anything I have ever attempted. Fun, if a bit grindy of a challenge.   :Razz: 

The cove was something I planned because I imagined it as one of the possible secret entries into the city. Maybe storm drains flowing out there, or an old forgotten cave system that runs deep under the city.  :Razz:  

Still there are quite a few things I am coming blank on in the city.
Other than the Trees I have yet to draw and add, there is that circle in the Eastern part that has me scratching my head to what might work there. Any suggestions?
(Btw thanks for taking the time to post  :Wink:  )

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## XCali

Ahoi!  :Very Happy: 

I would like to ask, which one you all prefer:
*Thunder Rock*

*Thunder Cliffs*

It would be like the city of Thunder Rock or Thunder Cliffs. I was just thinking if it is weird if it is going to be referred to as "the city of" that the C in city might clash with cliffs?
Anyway, post your thoughts below.  :Razz: 

Edit: This version of the city, I finished most of the cast shadows.

Another thing I am wondering, is if I should go with the color scheme I have now. This is a very new style of map for me.

### Latest WIP ###



(Previous contenders for name were, city of: Preaska, Akker and the suggested possibility Solace)

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## aeshnidae

I really like the color scheme as is, but if you want a bit more color you could do some muted dark greens for trees and grassy areas. For the circle in the eastern part - a temple? Tower of Sorcery? Great library? Mysterious ruins of some ancient civilization?

For name, City of Thunder Rock sounds slightly better to me than City of Thunder Cliffs. But I think Thunder Cliffs, on its own, is a perfectly fine name for a city. 

I love the idea of having some secret passages from the cove into the city. That's especially good for in-game use; you could even create a map of the storm drainage system (or whatever it is) and overlay it on the city map for game purposes. The size of the city would easily support an entire urban RPG campaign.  :Smile:

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## XCali

> I really like the color scheme as is, but if you want a bit more color you could do some muted dark greens for trees and grassy areas. For the circle in the eastern part - a temple? Tower of Sorcery? Great library? Mysterious ruins of some ancient civilization?
> 
> For name, City of Thunder Rock sounds slightly better to me than City of Thunder Cliffs. But I think Thunder Cliffs, on its own, is a perfectly fine name for a city. 
> 
> I love the idea of having some secret passages from the cove into the city. That's especially good for in-game use; you could even create a map of the storm drainage system (or whatever it is) and overlay it on the city map for game purposes. The size of the city would easily support an entire urban RPG campaign.


Thanks. I'll be sure to experiment with a few different color schemes.
Also, thanks for the circle suggestions.   :Wink: 

As I have never had the privilege to play a table top RPG yet, just listening to Critical Role; do you have experience with a urban campaign? Any tips to be mindful of would be incredibly helpful!  :Smile: 

The storm drain layout is definitely on my list of things to try.  :Razz:

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## rdanhenry

> The desert comment made me think of giving the buildings and the wall a more earthy color.
> Solace? Sounds intriguing. I'll keep it mind. 
> It doesn't need the port. It is not a must have for a port city. Take Hong Kong for example, no port in the name. But, it is one heck of a sea trading city as far as I know.


While it is certainly true that a port city need not reflect that in its name, Hong Kong is not a good example for this, as it translates as Spice (or Fragrant) Harbor. Los Angeles would be a better choice... but the full name still references a river, so I don't think it is an ideal choice. Oakland or New York are good examples, though.

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## XCali

> While it is certainly true that a port city need not reflect that in its name, Hong Kong is not a good example for this, as it translates as Spice (or Fragrant) Harbor. Los Angeles would be a better choice... but the full name still references a river, so I don't think it is an ideal choice. Oakland or New York are good examples, though.


Ah! Thanks for correcting me on that. It is just a name that popped in from the top of my head.

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## XCali

Ahoi all you awesome people!

I be happy. And if you know why I am happy, you'd probably be happy too. I do hope so in anyway.  :Razz:  huehuehue.

While busy with a commission this week, I laid in my bed pondering my problem with Thunder Rock. City maps are a crazy amount of work as you might know. That is unless you like beveling and embossing a lot, that changes the workflow.

The shadows for the map took ages. It is intense repetitive work. Thus problem. For every next phase I had to go through every step again, manually adding stuff to every building...  Like you all know, it is tiring. My next phase is incredibly important, so I HAD to do it, I had to put highlights in. But, like the roof shadows and the cast shadows even the shorter way to do it would require me to put a solid color stripe over every building one at a time and then afterwards play with the color and settings... I was not looking forward to going through the whole process again.

But, then while in bed, *I was struck with an epiphany!* There was a way! A way without doing it one by one. (There might even be some of you who know this already. But, for me it was big. Huge even. And I had to share it!) Hehehe.  :Razz: 
*
Tut:*
The hand drawn layer. I used the magic wand and *selected the entire white space around the buildings*. (Shrunk it by 1 -Can be Grown by 1... I am not sure, the INVERT confused me some.)(Because I didn't use a normal white paper, it was one with texture. So, it messed with it a bit, So, I had to Shrink/grow the selection.) *Invert the selection*. Now after this all my buildings is selected and then *I threw in a bright color on a new layer* below the Multiplied layer of my drawing, and whallah. All my highlights were in without having to do it one by one. Also, this sets me up for possibly adding individual color much easier to the buildings. It did cause some overflow, but that is only minor editing to fix it.
If anyway finds this useful, I am glad.  :Wink: 

Okay, below is my main version with the highlights added and then there is the psychedelic version to showcase the idea.  :Wink: 
Hope you enjoy the day. You are such a great group of people.  :Smile: 

### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

This is not a huge update. But between projects I am still chipping away at this one.

I added the main roads and main city roads. Alongside that, I started with the top half adding alleyways and smaller roads. Let me know your thoughts.  :Smile:  Thanks in advance.

### Latest WIP ###

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## MistyBeee

Oh, wow ! The colors are amazing, XCali !!

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## XCali

> Oh, wow ! The colors are amazing, XCali !!


Thank you!! Coming from someone with your ability, it means a lot.  :Very Happy:

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## MistyBeee

Oh, well, you're welcome  :Blush: 
I was writing to a client just a few minutes ago for who I'm working on a map of Lake Winnebago (Bees's relating her life...) and I finally put my finger on something that I have in mind since I saw your map this morning. Your map with those colors reminds me this wood map I found when I was looking for reference for Lake Winnebago : burned lines, strong shadows made by the 'real' 3D relief. Something authentic, almost like a 3D model. So, great job, once again ^^

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## XCali

> Oh, well, you're welcome 
> I was writing to a client just a few minutes ago for who I'm working on a map of Lake Winnebago (Bees's relating her life...) and I finally put my finger on something that I have in mind since I saw your map this morning. Your map with those colors reminds me this wood map I found when I was looking for reference for Lake Winnebago : burned lines, strong shadows made by the 'real' 3D relief. Something authentic, almost like a 3D model. So, great job, once again ^^


 :Very Happy:  Nice reference map! Where did you find that one?

Thank you once again. :Blush: 
I was watching a person draw really cool concept art and some things he pointed to got me on the trail to try playing with shaded relief to make stuff pop. It actually surprised me quite a bit when it actually worked for me! Hehehe.  :Razz: 

Anyway, I still have a lot to learn, but this is a fun way to play with a top down map.

Can I ask you something? How did you get into cartography? And how long have you been making maps for? You really have an amazing talent for it. It's absolutely inspiring.

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## MistyBeee

> Nice reference map! Where did you find that one?


Quite easily, in fact : just searching "lake Winnebago map" in Google images the first time I was looking for references about this specific project ^^





> Thank you once again.
> I was watching a person draw really cool concept art and some things he pointed to got me on the trail to try playing with shaded relief to make stuff pop. It actually surprised me quite a bit when it actually worked for me! Hehehe. 
> Anyway, I still have a lot to learn, but this is a fun way to play with a top down map.
> Can I ask you something? How did you get into cartography? And how long have you been making maps for? You really have an amazing talent for it. It's absolutely inspiring.


Oooh... you made me blush once again  :Blush:  
'must say I don't see myself as talented or creative, I just... fake it ? but doing my best ^^'
Hmm... As many others, there is a world building project I started in 2000 or 2001 and which needed maps. My first one was already on Photoshop, but mostly generated, with tons of awful automatic effects... I just had a mouse, and absolutely 0 skills or interest for drawing. I can't count how many versions of this map I drew, mostly on Photoshop, some on paper (you can see some of them here if you're interested, it will give you an idea of the way ^^). The last really detailed map I drew for my own world is from 2011, I think. After it, except a few concept maps, I mostly tryed my hand on regular digital painting illustrations : plants, objects, portraits, a few landscapes (I'm bad for landscapes ^^), but as I was thinking to change a very boring job, a friend who followed the whole world building suggested I could try to take commissions for maps, as mine were quite successful on our small community. My first commission was in early 2016. As far as I remember, I think it was the first time I drew a map out of my own fantasy world (if I omit a map of Austria when I was 6 years old ^^), and I sometimes have the feeling I progressed more in 2 years of commissions than in 16 years in my own world ^^'.

----------


## XCali

> Oooh... you made me blush once again  
> 'must say I don't see myself as talented or creative, I just... fake it ? but doing my best ^^'
> Hmm... As many others, there is a world building project I started in 2000 or 2001 and which needed maps. My first one was already on Photoshop, but mostly generated, with tons of awful automatic effects... I just had a mouse, and absolutely 0 skills or interest for drawing. I can't count how many versions of this map I drew, mostly on Photoshop, some on paper (you can see some of them here if you're interested, it will give you an idea of the way ^^). The last really detailed map I drew for my own world is from 2011, I think. After it, except a few concept maps, I mostly tryed my hand on regular digital painting illustrations : plants, objects, portraits, a few landscapes (I'm bad for landscapes ^^), but as I was thinking to change a very boring job, a friend who followed the whole world building suggested I could try to take commissions for maps, as mine were quite successful on our small community. My first commission was in early 2016. As far as I remember, I think it was the first time I drew a map out of my own fantasy world (if I omit a map of Austria when I was 6 years old ^^), and I sometimes have the feeling I progressed more in 2 years of commissions than in 16 years in my own world ^^'.


_Ha!_ Don't be so modest.  :Razz:  You do have a great talent.  :Very Happy: 

EDIT: Just to make that clear, looking at your Tamriel and Middle Earth maps, it makes me stare in awe at the screen. Truly magnificent.


Hmm, the progress of the different versions of that map is quite interesting. I most the enjoy the 2005 version and the 2010 version. The 2005 version invokes a sense of there is stories there with the big trees popping out of the map. I like it. The 2010 version on the other hand version has such elegant touch to it. Definitely nice to see how you progressed on a single map.  :Very Happy: 

My first map was me trying to get past my 0 drawing ability and using tracing paper to get the lines for mountains and cliffs. But, about two years ago, I really had to get a map ready for my novel's world and so I found Inkarnate and boom created a few maps about regions and continents in my world. Though, I always wanted to add MORE mystery and fantasy to those maps, yet inkarnate only allowed 10 custom objects over all your maps at that time. ... That frustrated me to no end. I had created a frankenstein map using custom objects, but, I could only do so much with that program.  :Razz:  That is when I discovered GIMP. Now, that enabled me to create an upgraded version of my frankenstein maps.  :Very Happy:  In all seriousness, it gave waaaay more freedom to add stuff that wasn't normally seen on maps. That is what I wanted. 
Anyway, before I knew I started to really love creating maps and then I started to finally learn to draw stuff other than stick figures and now I love drawing maps and assets for them. Still, a ways to go. But, as you know it can be incredibly satisfying.  :Wink: 

Do you ever draw brushes to help on your journey?
(Btw, thank you for taking the time to chat a bit. It is really nice.  :Smile:  )

---
If you are interested.  :Wink: 
Frankesteinion map version 2.0 Huehuehue!!!!!  :Razz:  Yera's Crossing.
First map I did on the guild. Nessa'Mor
Very first commission map. Ice Dragon lair.

----------


## MistyBeee

> Do you ever draw brushes to help on your journey?
> (Btw, thank you for taking the time to chat a bit. It is really nice.  )
> ---
> If you are interested. 
> Frankesteinion map version 2.0 Huehuehue!!!!!  Yera's Crossing.
> First map I did on the guild. Nessa'Mor
> Very first commission map. Ice Dragon lair.


I see something in common with your Frankesteinion map and my first one, thus yours is definitely better ! Sounds we both made a long way already, but it's never the end and that's the best, isn't it ?  :Smile: 

Actually I really don't use many brushes, and I tend to use less and less with time. All my lineart is made exclusively with the most basic round brush with pen pressure (same one, a little flattened for calligraphy), I have 2 more I use for painting (a round one with opacity pressure and a chalk one for blending), and a very few (maybe 4 ?) I made myself or found somewhere for painting parchment textures or add grungy splatters on the edges. That's all. It's probably years now since I created my last brush, probably ! 

And... you're more than welcome  :Smile:

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## XCali

> I see something in common with your Frankesteinion map and my first one, thus yours is definitely better ! Sounds we both made a long way already, but it's never the end and that's the best, isn't it ? 
> 
> Actually I really don't use many brushes, and I tend to use less and less with time. All my lineart is made exclusively with the most basic round brush with pen pressure (same one, a little flattened for calligraphy), I have 2 more I use for painting (a round one with opacity pressure and a chalk one for blending), and a very few (maybe 4 ?) I made myself or found somewhere for painting parchment textures or add grungy splatters on the edges. That's all. It's probably years now since I created my last brush, probably ! 
> 
> And... you're more than welcome


Hehehe, yeah that is true. Fantasy cartography is quite a journey that keeps going.  :Smile: 
Well, I think you are lucky to have already found a drawing tablet for the more precise lineart(I remember you commenting about a wacom>?). I am yet to save up for one, my mouse is way too imprecise sadly. I can't wait!!  :Smile:  
I do like drawing certain maps by pencil or pen. But certain things I really and I mean really do not like drawing a thousand of, trees being one of them. So, I do create tree brushes quite often and unique stuff. Although I do get what you are saying.  :Smile: 

Can I ask one more question, it is actually one I really wish I could put my finger on. Like with continent maps, how do you structure your layers? And what modes do you tend to use to get your coloring consistent. I have had mixed success in that regard.
Like example:
 Top=Lineart layer (mulitply? Normal?)
Layer= This layer(that mode)
...
...
Bottom layer(that mode)

I would really appreciate it a great deal if you can point me in a good direction regarding that.  :Blush: 

Have a lovely day!

----------


## XCali

Hey! All you nice people!

Today's update is me experimenting again. I drew _quite_ a few trees by pen and then created an animated brush to fill in the map. I actually liked the green I used as an example earlier, so the trees got that color. Still, it is an experimental color. So, I would like hear your feedback on it.

I also added a layer on Linear Light mode and threw that same green in and got the effect you see around the trees. (I did Gaussian blur that layer.)

Anyway, I wanted to see what you all think of the addition of the trees.  :Smile: 

### Latest WIP ###

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## Adfor

I like the feel of the green you used for the palm trees, gives it even more of a desert feel.  This one has been truly fun to watch unfold, Cali, great work, as always!

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## MistyBeee

> Hehehe, yeah that is true. Fantasy cartography is quite a journey that keeps going. 
> Well, I think you are lucky to have already found a drawing tablet for the more precise lineart(I remember you commenting about a wacom>?). I am yet to save up for one, my mouse is way too imprecise sadly. I can't wait!!  
> I do like drawing certain maps by pencil or pen. But certain things I really and I mean really do not like drawing a thousand of, trees being one of them. So, I do create tree brushes quite often and unique stuff. Although I do get what you are saying.


I started with a Wacom Intuos 2 probably in... 2003 or 2004 ? To be absolutely, totally honest with you, I never was able to overcome totally the hand/brain dissociation : every drawing was a pain, and not that much better than what I did with my mouse before. If you drew this map with just a mouse, so let me tell you my complete admiration o_o
In 2009 I had still the same problem with my non-connecting brain for the tablet, but the best husband ever came to rescue and made the best Christmas gift ever : a Wacom Cintiq. It was a big bet, because a Wacom Cintiq is a lot of money, but it was magical and solved instantanely my problem. In just a few weeks I made more progress than in one year with my old Intuos. But I insist on the fact that it's just me : most of people don't have trouble with that dissociation, so don't be afraid ^^'. As you saw my progress on the picture earlier today, you saw the 2009-2010 enhancement and understand what I mean  :Wink: 
For trees... I don't use brush for them since as you may know Photoshop will make them overlapped. For some styles where I can draw trees with an opaque color/background (so mostly black/white maps, but I think I never posted this specific style on the map yet) I use the clone stamp tool as a time saver, but I don't like to replicate elements, so it's something I use less and less now... So... I draw them individually almost all the time now, as you can see on Middle Earth, Tamriel and my other maps. As I always say : a forest day is a good day for an audiobook (A Jules Verne for Middle Earth, and Robin Hobb for Tamriel, I think ? ^^).





> Can I ask one more question, it is actually one I really wish I could put my finger on. Like with continent maps, how do you structure your layers? And what modes do you tend to use to get your coloring consistent. I have had mixed success in that regard.
> Like example:
>  Top=Lineart layer (mulitply? Normal?)
> Layer= This layer(that mode)
> ...
> ...
> Bottom layer(that mode)
> 
> I would really appreciate it a great deal if you can point me in a good direction regarding that. 
> ...


Well... Every project is different, but let's see if I can help. Just remember there is no "perfect method" : the perfect method is the one that works for you  :Smile: 

Layers organisation (to read from the bottom, as you know !) :
*Late edits* :
*Texture effects* (splatters, dirty edges, etc. ; low opacity)*Color ajustment* (not always required, but can be great for general harmonization ; always subtle)*Last details* (normal opacity 100% : very precise edits and color touches, rare super strong specular lights, and sometimes snow, because it's better when over linework ; sometimes this layer is just 3 white dots only !)*Ornaments folder* (with roughly same organisation than Map folder : labels > linework > shadow* > color*) :
*Title folder**Border folder**Map folder* + mask for areas covered by ornaments
*Labels folder* (including calligraphy if needed, and a background layer for the label outlines)*Line work folder* ; I tend to use many layers for start and merge them before color. When several layers (usually each with a mask : I'm an extremist of non-destructive methods (probably from my years as webdesigner) and it's useful when a client asks to move an illustration at the last moment ^^) :
IllustrationsForestsGrasslands/deserts/swampsMountainsRivers*Color, light & Shadow folder* :
LightShadow*Color*Often a low opacity light ajustment layer to make the landmass slightly lighter than sea*Water folder* + mask for landmasses
Compass & rhumb linesSea color* (low opacity and color mode "color")*Background layer*
* are layers for which I _sometimes_ use a color mode.
To be honest, my style is pretty simple and I use as few effects as I can : no color modes on folders, and even rarely on layers. The only elements for which I use color modes areshadow and Color layers, but even there it's not systematic (more often I do the color with a normal mode, just playing with a low opacity brush, or pen pressure on opacity). If needed, multiply, overlay and linear light are probably those I use the most ; however it depends on the background, ambiancy, etc... No magical recipe, just try-fail-retry. I noted that almost everytime I use a color mode, I lower the layer opacity for a more subtle effect ^^).



For Guild mods : don't hesitate to tell me if I should talk about this in private, or create a new thread instead of spamming this one, because I'm really not accustomed with forum usages in this sort of things, so sorry if I'm doing something wrong !

----------


## XCali

> If you drew this map with just a mouse, so let me tell you my complete admiration o_o


Oh no! I drew this with a pen and paper and a trusty magnifying glass.  :Razz: 
Though I mouse drew all my mountains for my Sambria WIP(Which took a looong time) this one I wanted the pen and paper feel. At least for all the line art.

I'm on my phone at the moment so replying is a bit more tricky.  :Razz:  I'll reply in depth to your bigger post in the morning. Thanks for taking the time! Really.
(Btw, just a quick note, the layer modes(eg. Multiply. I couldn't figure it out just now. But I'm sure I'll probably get it with a fresh brain tomorrow.   :Razz: )
Good night!

----------


## XCali

> I like the feel of the green you used for the palm trees, gives it even more of a desert feel.  This one has been truly fun to watch unfold, Cali, great work, as always!


Thank you.  :Very Happy:

----------


## XCali

The Sambria one I referred to drawing the mountains with a mouse, it is this one: WIP I still have quite a ways to go with that map.  :Razz: (That map is actually the reason why I asked the layer and its modes question. Certain colors just doesn't want to come out the right way without me sacrificing the texture. All well, I will tackle it again sometime.)





> In just a few weeks I made more progress than in one year with my old Intuos. But I insist on the fact that it's just me : most of people don't have trouble with that dissociation, so don't be afraid ^^'. 
> For trees... I don't use brush for them since as you may know Photoshop will make them overlapped. For some styles where I can draw trees with an opaque color/background (so mostly black/white maps, but I think I never posted this specific style on the map yet) I use the clone stamp tool as a time saver, but I don't like to replicate elements, so it's something I use less and less now... So... I draw them individually almost all the time now, as you can see on Middle Earth, Tamriel and my other maps. As I always say : a forest day is a good day for an audiobook (A Jules Verne for Middle Earth, and Robin Hobb for Tamriel, I think ? ^^).


Well, when I can save up for something like that, I certainly would want that instead of just a mouse.  :Smile:  I'll try the cheaper Intuos first I think.

Anyway on to the brushes overlapping. Yeah, I saw that when I first started using GIMP. I got a great mountain brush that looked just right and then lo and behold it overlapped. I stopped using it and instead made my own mountains. 
BUT it has to be said, there _is_ a way to sidestep that. Because even with photoshop, I sometimes use free PS created brushes in gimp, so I know the basics are the same. The normal brush files all have one thing in common, GRAYSCALE image mode and FLATTEN IMAGE, with that you get to use any color as a base for it. However, the overlapping exists with those two modes in place.  Now, I pen draw most of my assets and then use the selection tool to select all the white around the objects, grow the selection by one to take away any stray white edges. Cut the whole selection. Then I am left with just my assets. Now, when I create a brush for them I DO NOT select grayscale image mode NOR flatten image, and then save it as a brush file. So, when I use the brush it does *not* overlap at all like normally when the ink is passing through. 
Case and point, check out my latest update on the City map with the trees, I did just that.
Given you have to draw them small enough and then make a large enough pool of them to ensure variety. It saves a looooad of time of drawing the exact thing same thing over and over again. It might be something to try, but nevertheless it is something that I do to help things along that doesn't need so many unique assets.  :Smile: 



color version (I save it just like that into an animated brush with quite a pool of variety.)






> Well... Every project is different, but let's see if I can help. Just remember there is no "perfect method" : the perfect method is the one that works for you 
> 
> Layers organisation (to read from the bottom, as you know !) :
> *Late edits* :
> *Texture effects* (splatters, dirty edges, etc. ; low opacity)*Color ajustment* (not always required, but can be great for general harmonization ; always subtle)*Last details* (normal opacity 100% : very precise edits and color touches, rare super strong specular lights, and sometimes snow, because it's better when over linework ; sometimes this layer is just 3 white dots only !)*Ornaments folder* (with roughly same organisation than Map folder : labels > linework > shadow* > color*) :
> *Title folder**Border folder**Map folder* + mask for areas covered by ornaments
> *Labels folder* (including calligraphy if needed, and a background layer for the label outlines)*Line work folder* ; I tend to use many layers for start and merge them before color. When several layers (usually each with a mask : I'm an extremist of non-destructive methods (probably from my years as webdesigner) and it's useful when a client asks to move an illustration at the last moment ^^) :
> IllustrationsForestsGrasslands/deserts/swampsMountainsRivers*Color, light & Shadow folder* :
> LightShadow*Color*Often a low opacity light ajustment layer to make the landmass slightly lighter than sea*Water folder* + mask for landmasses
> ...


I don't think there will be a problem with the discussion. This main thread is called Forum: Mapmaking *Discussion & Philosophy* (WIP/Critique)
We help each other.  :Smile: 

Anyway, about the layers. Wow, that is quite in detail, it will take some time to figure the setup out in my head.  :Razz:  Thank you sooooo much for taking the time.
Okay so, you color beneath your line art, but is it on that layer where you work your texture into the image? Like example If I want a paper feeling to the image, but want to continue coloring it with the colors I choose without losing the paper feel, how do you do that? :Question:

----------


## XCali

Hiya!  :Smile: 

Today, I cleaned up the foliage layer under the trees and I added the name of the city in the left corner. But, I wanted to experiment with a night version of the map, so I went with a moonlight effect to test things out. It will be an alternative version of the end product.  :Smile: 
I haven't started adding light sources to the city for it yet, so just moonlight for now.

Let me know what you all think.  :Wink: 

### Latest WIP ###   Night Alternative.

----------


## MistyBeee

> Anyway, about the layers. Wow, that is quite in detail, it will take some time to figure the setup out in my head.  Thank you sooooo much for taking the time.
> Okay so, you color beneath your line art, but is it on that layer where you work your texture into the image? Like example If I want a paper feeling to the image, but want to continue coloring it with the colors I choose without losing the paper feel, how do you do that?


Hmm... I think my approach is different. Maybe because I often work with watercolor, or because I always try to get inspiration from historic map makers and traditional techniques, instead of thinking about texture I think about transparency. My color layers are always low opacity, so don't hide the background textured layer : except rare case, it's the background which gives the texture to the whole map. 
I made this for you : it's a simplified view of my current work on DarkSouls. The color itself is really quickly made to give a first idea of the color step to my client, so it's not perfect, but should illustrate our case here  :Smile: 

Let's see, to read from bottom to top, as usual : 
*Clean linework* : as you can imagine, here are the dark lines from the linework ; 100% opacity, etc.*Sketch* : nothing useful here : just the blue lines from the first sketch*Color folder* : 
*Texture + light & shadow* : As told before, it's a quickly made sampler so I was lazy here and put all on a single layer. With using the same chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity, I suggested bricks, added some texture and, added light (coming from top right) just by picking the parchment color. The layer is 100% opacity, no effect, no color mode... just a few light brush strokes  :Smile: *Color base* : This is just a fill layer>solid color + a mask ; any plain color 100% opacity do the job here. As you can see, this color layer is 100% opacity, but the 3th picture shows the mask which is painted with low opacity (here with a chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity). A second pass with the same brush suggests the shadows (or shades ? I never know -_-). As it's low opacity, you can still see the paper texture below by transparency.*Opaque white square* : This is just to help you see better the transparency of layers above  :Smile: *Background* : here is the parchment that is the support of the whole map : the "paper feel". I must confess it's not super textured, so not ideal for the demonstration ^^'
Now... even with low opacity, it's real that the paper texture is still slightly lower where color is. If I need more texture, 3 solutions : 
- Just paint more texture on the "Texture + light & shadow" layer : it's what I usually do, using the same texture brush that I use for painting my background parchments.
- If the map is totally painted/covered with color, just playing with contrast or levels, make the background itself more textured.
- You can also duplicate the background parchment and put it on the top of your layers (or just after the linework). Make it grayscale only, play with the levels and contrasts to strengthen the texture, put the layer on Overlay mode and then ajust the light of this layer to make it as close as possible to a 50% grey, which is the exact tone that don't 'burn' the picture with overlay mode. I let it at 100% here to show you, but a lower opacity would be better :


 :Smile:

----------


## XCali

> Hmm... I think my approach is different. Maybe because I often work with watercolor, or because I always try to get inspiration from historic map makers and traditional techniques, instead of thinking about texture I think about transparency. My color layers are always low opacity, so don't hide the background textured layer : except rare case, it's the background which gives the texture to the whole map. 
> 
> 
> Let's see, to read from bottom to top, as usual : 
> *Clean linework* : as you can imagine, here are the dark lines from the linework ; 100% opacity, etc.*Sketch* : nothing useful here : just the blue lines from the first sketch*Color folder* : 
> *Texture + light & shadow* : As told before, it's a quickly made sampler so I was lazy here and put all on a single layer. With using the same chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity, I suggested bricks, added some texture and, added light (coming from top right) just by picking the parchment color. The layer is 100% opacity, no effect, no color mode... just a few light brush strokes *Color base* : This is just a fill layer>solid color + a mask ; any plain color 100% opacity do the job here. As you can see, this color layer is 100% opacity, but the 3th picture shows the mask which is painted with low opacity (here with a chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity). A second pass with the same brush suggests the shadows (or shades ? I never know -_-). As it's low opacity, you can still see the paper texture below by transparency.*Opaque white square* : This is just to help you see better the transparency of layers above *Background* : here is the parchment that is the support of the whole map : the "paper feel". I must confess it's not super textured, so not ideal for the demonstration ^^'
> Now... even with low opacity, it's real that the paper texture is still slightly lower where color is. If I need more texture, 3 solutions : 
> - Just paint more texture on the "Texture + light & shadow" layer : it's what I usually do, using the same texture brush that I use for painting my background parchments.
> - If the map is totally painted/covered with color, just playing with contrast or levels, make the background itself more textured.
> - You can also duplicate the background parchment and put it on the top of your layers (or just after the linework). Make it grayscale only, play with the levels and contrasts to strengthen the texture, put the layer on Overlay mode and then ajust the light of this layer to make it as close as possible to a 50% grey, which is the exact tone that don't 'burn' the picture with overlay mode. I let it at 100% here to show you, but a lower opacity would be better :



Fascinating study!  :Very Happy: 
Way different than what I do. 

I think I figured it out about 80%. Though, I just messed around for 10 minutes setting it up to emulate what I see you showed. (Thanx for adding the pictures. It really helped in ordering the whole attempt.

My print screen is not playing along for some weird reason. But, I will attach my quick attempt.  :Wink: 


I can see that it gives a more saturated feel to all the colors, which is actually quite nice. Though, I will have to learn how to jump between changing the mask, disabling it and changing parts of the base color. Definitely new to me.  :Razz: 

The texture layer above the base color, I'm not too sure I do it right, I lost some of the background texture, but anyway. I will figure it out.  :Wink:  The last point on the grayscale added texture layer above on half opacity overlay is definitely a good one to remember, thanks!

Surely some getting use to the idea, but definitely a method for a specific style I will remember.  :Smile: 

Thank you so much Misty. You are awesome. **High five**  :Very Happy:

----------


## MistyBeee

Well, you're welcome, as you may know : Guild spirit ^^

----------


## ChickPea

This is looking great!

----------


## XCali

> This is looking great!


 :Very Happy:  Thank you!

City maps are quite a challenge, but it has been fun.  :Smile: 

Hey, ChickPea if you don't mind me asking, how you would go about the tree shadows for this one? I have been pondering it for a few days.  :Question:

----------


## XCali

Hi everyone!  :Smile: 

Today I felt like tackling the cast shadows of the trees. It is on its own layer, so if you think it should be darker or lighter, let me know.  :Smile: 
(For those interested in the process  :Smile: , I created an animated brush with hard black horizontal color resembling the range of trees and started chipping at placing it on its own layer below the trees but above the buildings color layer, so that taller trees can go over a building. Then I multiplied the layer and lowered its opacity.) 

Other that that, I added a little color to the docks, and again tried to get the name to do something interesting. If I succeeded, I do not know.  :Razz: 

I tried a different green for the trees, so the two day versions below belly that. I would like to know what color you think the trees should be. 

### Latest WIP ###


Green 2


Night version

----------


## XCali

Hi everyone  :Wink: 

Today, I thought I'd try out banners housing the numbers for the map. This is completely new to me. Eventually I will make a set of different versions of it, including one with just the most important buildings pointed out. Though, the reason for the large amount of numbers, this map is meant for a city campaign in a table top scenario, or at the very least a place that has a large amount of variety going into an adventure campaign visiting this city.  :Wink: 

*Okay, now I am getting to a place where nitpicking from you guys and girls would be GREATLY appreciated.* I want to hunt down the things that looks off or just odd, and optimise the map. For that I really really need your help pointing me in direction that would make the map even better.  :Smile: 

Below is one with just the banners added and the other has the numbers included. There is still loads of the numbered places I haven't yet thought of what it is, so you are welcome to discuss what would be cool for them.  :Wink: 

### Latest WIP ###


Like the banners or not?

Numbers added
### Latest WIP ###

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## MistyBeee

*Mode super picky on*
Hmm... I don't know if the numbers are definitive, but if they are you should maybe do something as many of them are going out of their banner : 22, 15, 38, etc...
It's certainely a matter of taste, and because I loved so much the 'just orange' colors harmony of the map before vegetation, but I would use a different green, less saturated, for the trees (but it's maybe just me, because I always have problems with green). However, the shadows are great !  :Smile: 
Maybe find (or paint) a less repetitive texture for the big banner on the top left ? 
*Mode super picky off*
 :Arrow:

----------


## J.Edward

> Hmm... I think my approach is different. Maybe because I often work with watercolor, or because I always try to get inspiration from historic map makers and traditional techniques, instead of thinking about texture I think about transparency. My color layers are always low opacity, so don't hide the background textured layer : except rare case, it's the background which gives the texture to the whole map. 
> I made this for you : it's a simplified view of my current work on DarkSouls. The color itself is really quickly made to give a first idea of the color step to my client, so it's not perfect, but should illustrate our case here 
> Attachment 108965
> Let's see, to read from bottom to top, as usual : 
> *Clean linework* : as you can imagine, here are the dark lines from the linework ; 100% opacity, etc.*Sketch* : nothing useful here : just the blue lines from the first sketch*Color folder* : 
> *Texture + light & shadow* : As told before, it's a quickly made sampler so I was lazy here and put all on a single layer. With using the same chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity, I suggested bricks, added some texture and, added light (coming from top right) just by picking the parchment color. The layer is 100% opacity, no effect, no color mode... just a few light brush strokes *Color base* : This is just a fill layer>solid color + a mask ; any plain color 100% opacity do the job here. As you can see, this color layer is 100% opacity, but the 3th picture shows the mask which is painted with low opacity (here with a chalk brush 50% opacity + pen pressure opacity). A second pass with the same brush suggests the shadows (or shades ? I never know -_-). As it's low opacity, you can still see the paper texture below by transparency.*Opaque white square* : This is just to help you see better the transparency of layers above *Background* : here is the parchment that is the support of the whole map : the "paper feel". I must confess it's not super textured, so not ideal for the demonstration ^^'
> Now... even with low opacity, it's real that the paper texture is still slightly lower where color is. If I need more texture, 3 solutions : 
> - Just paint more texture on the "Texture + light & shadow" layer : it's what I usually do, using the same texture brush that I use for painting my background parchments.
> - If the map is totally painted/covered with color, just playing with contrast or levels, make the background itself more textured.
> ...


That is neat. Also different from what I do but an interesting approach.

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## XCali

> *Mode super picky on*
> Hmm... I don't know if the numbers are definitive, but if they are you should maybe do something as many of them are going out of their banner : 22, 15, 38, etc...
> It's certainely a matter of taste, and because I loved so much the 'just orange' colors harmony of the map before vegetation, but I would use a different green, less saturated, for the trees (but it's maybe just me, because I always have problems with green). However, the shadows are great ! 
> Maybe find (or paint) a less repetitive texture for the big banner on the top left ? 
> *Mode super picky off*


Nah, the numbers are on their own layer, so I can resize some of them, or all of them if I want.  :Razz:  Do you like the small banners behind the numbers?

The green is a very valid point, one I have to consider. I can also go full fantasy and make all the trees a very interesting color that melds with orange tone of the map.  :Smile: 

The top left banner is at least very easy to replace the texture. So, will do captain Beee! *Salutes*  :Razz: 

Thank you for putting super picky mode on for me.  :Very Happy:  I do mean it. Sometimes we want to be really diplomatic here on the guild, but sometimes when it comes to a really ambitious map it is necessary to encourage one to look closer.

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## XCali

Hi!

Okay, changed the banner and the size of the numbers in certain places. Also their color.

Now, I tried toning down the saturation of the trees in one of the two versions down below and the other I went with a color closer to the the buildings, a warmer hue. Let me know which you all prefer.  :Smile: 

I have to say, I am a bit uncertain what to do with the title. It is not my strong suit yet. *shrugs*

### Latest WIP ### 


Warmer hue trees,

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## XCali

Hi!

I finally figured something out for the title.  :Razz:  
Apart from that, I added a few boats, some shadows to certain places. Also, at the top I added some crops.  :Smile: 

This version is one without the banners and numbers. The numbers one is going to be a supplementary one at the end. 

Now, I have another question. *Has anybody here ever added a map to a pdf file?* I have never done it, but it would be useful to know I can make a pdf for all the versions of the map.

I do have some things that I can add as nice to haves to the map, but other than that, the map is nearing its finished state.(At least for the day version.) I would appreciate some more nitpicking modes before I declare it done. Hehehe.  :Wink:  (Remember, this file in this post is one version, the one with the numbers is another. So both can be scrutinised.)

Just a big thank you for all the encouragement and feedback from all of you so far. It means a lot to me.  :Smile: 
Have a lovely day,
Omri

### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

Hi everyone!  :Very Happy: 

With no following feedback for my day map, I think I am calling it finished for now. (If you do want to comment on it still, you are welcome, just add that it is for the day map.  :Wink:  )

Okay, that said, I want to start adding lighting to the night map. I've only experimented small scale with this, so I am running blind from here on out.

What I tried for the first experiment was, a basic brush with a soft edge, vivid light as my mode of choice. (I copied the layers from my day map with the buildings color and trees. I just kept it in as a single layer to Alpha to select. This is so my light doesn't go over my buildings.)
Still, I have an inkling there is far better methods out there to add lights to a night city. I just have no clue what. 
Anyway, tell me what you think and by all means point me in a different direction if you know of easier and more atmospheric ways to this part.  :Smile: 

### Latest WIP ###

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## Adfor

Oh my god, Cali, you may have just achieved greatness with the night time feel, that city is going to look so incredible when all the lighting on the houses is done.  Soooooo goooood!

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## XCali

> Oh my god, Cali, you may have just achieved greatness with the night time feel, that city is going to look so incredible when all the lighting on the houses is done.  Soooooo goooood!


Hehehe.  :Very Happy:  Thank you, I'm flattered.  :Blush:  Though still a big experiment the whole lights thing, I am looking forward to getting them done too. I hope it does a night map justice.

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## XCali

Hi everyone!

I was away for a few days, but I got back to adding lights to the Night version.

This phase is a bit of grind, though I do feel it will add to the map when done. 

### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

Yay! The lights are about done.  :Smile: 

Okay, as I went with my first plan for the lights, I wondered if I grew the selection by 5, threw in the same color I used for the base light into another Vivid color mode layer, and Gaussian blurred it by 1.5 -opacity of the layer down between 24-40- that it would give a nice glow to the streets. I must admit I do think it can work.

Also, for the bigger towers and stuff, I added lights without using the Alpha to selection from the color layer and used an eraser to remove the overlapping light on the lines.

So basically my lights layer wise looks like this:

*Vivid Color Mode layer:* 60%opacity (A copy of the lights layer)
*Vivid Color Mode layer, Street:* 24-40%opacity, Color drag, Gaussian blur 1.5 (Alpha to selection Lights layer then grow by 5, drag drop same color into it)
*Normal Mode, Lights Layer:* 5-30%opacity  (I used a cream color, a brush with a soft edge.)(AS I PLACED all the lights, I used 100% opacity on the brush, and 100% on layer-though the layer op came down to the 5-30 afterwards-) 
*Base Night Map layer* 
(Non active)Base Day Map Layer: (So that I can edit the day map and still bring it across for the night map without hassle.)


(NON active layer) *Color for buildings*-> I had this one up from the day map, it was just the color of the buildings. I used this to Alpha to select + Invert selection to keep the lights from going onto the buildings.

EDIT: Just a reminder, I exported this at 85% quality, if it seems a bit blurry.

24%opacity version
### Latest WIP ###

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## XCali

Fellow guild members, I need your help.

There are a few questions I am finding a hard time answering. Ones I need answering before I can call this map finished. I would GREATLY appreciate feedback from you all regarding these questions. 

*One*, I need a scale. I am really not sure what scale this city map should be. It is a big city, but it is not a colossal city. What scale in feet should I add? (Taking Table top RPGs into account.)

*Two*, do I need to add a compass for this one? If it something that is going to be used in wildly different scenarios, I feel kind of reluctant to add one. (I have some ready, so that is not the problem.)
*
Three*, due to my lack of real time experience with Tabletop RPGs I am having a hard time thinking of anything I am missing on the map, stuff that is necessary . Or a version thereof.

*Four*, this is just asking if there are any must change aspects of the Day and Night map that I need to be aware of before I call it finished.

Thank you in advance,
Omri

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## MistyBeee

The night version looks awesome here, Omri  :Smile: 
I'm not sure if I can help with your askings, but can try ^^
1/ Maybe I would try to estimate the size of the different elements, and extrapolate a scale from this : decide what is the size of a regular house, the lengh of a dock pier, the size of the main building West of the bridge... with those sizes in mind, you should be able to determine an average scale and see if it sounds consistent or not. 
2/ I read once in an old map books that "a map without a compass is not a map but a sketch" and this sentence stayed in my mind for some reason. So if it's a map, I would add a compass ^^. And it's always interesting to give informations like "the tavern is on the Eastern shore". 
3/ No idea, as I never played myself ^^'
4/ I don't think so. But I would add a lonely ligh somewhere in the woods at West (similar to those you added on the small islands, both sides of the bridge) : it can be a fun thing to explore for a game, maybe ? Some secret visible only at night...

Anyway, great job !  :Smile:

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## XCali

@MistyBeee Thanks for the feedback.  :Smile:  I really do appreciate it. 

I went and added a compass and a 2000 feet scale. If anybody think it should be a smaller number or a larger number, *pleeeeeease tell me*, really.  :Razz: 

The mines are in now and a random cave further into the mountains! Yays. I also added lights and a soft glow to a few extra places.

If you all give me the thumbs up for the scale, then I will call it a day and post it as finished.  :Razz:  (Barring feedback, I might anyway post one more version with just a handful of names added to a third version of the map. This map will indeed have multiple versions.)

Versions below:
Night With extra added stuff like the compass and scale and mines etc.
Night  with banners.
Day with JUST numbers, no banners? Tell me if this would be better or not regarding the numbers version.

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## bkh1914

I contemplated the scale for far too long (maybe shorter... no, maybe longer)
and in the end I decided that your scale looks entirely reasonable.

I definitely like the numbers *without* banners better.

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## XCali

> I contemplated the scale for far too long (maybe shorter... no, maybe longer)
> and in the end I decided that your scale looks entirely reasonable.
> 
> I definitely like the numbers *without* banners better.


Thank you for the feedback! I am glad you think so.  :Smile: 

Hmmm, you know what, the banners bug me a bit too. I will try something in my next post.

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## XCali

Hi!

I am about done. In fact I just have to get the name labels to fit to the map and I am done. I have posted the finished maps. But they were without the labels, as that is something I want to get just right.

Other than that, I can't rightly think of anything more to do... So final calls.  :Smile: 

*This question is aimed for people who has run campaigns in cities or at  the very least have gone through quite a few in their RPG's. Are the labels I added sufficient?*

This brings me to one of my final questions besides the names one. This thing is going to have so many versions of it! For getting it around easier, it would really help to put into a pdf. Thing is, I have no idea how to put a map into a pdf properly. I would like to have a single pdf with all the versions of the map inside and be able to present it that way to DMs and GMs. Is there anybody on the guild with experience in this regard? I would appreciate a few tips.

### Latest WIP ###



I'll add a numbers version. Would it work for a city campaign?

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## Tenia

Hey XCali !
I missed this thread and first of all I just want to tell you that your city map is splendid.
Because of the large number of POI, putting numbers is the good choice, with only labels it would be too hard to find something on the map. For me, the labels are clear and easely readable, no need for banners. Now, from a player's or gm's perspective, to find a point quickly on a map it would be best if the numbers were ordered geographically. Most are, but some are isolated : I did a test with "42" and I spent a lot of time finding him because I immediately found the 43-49 pack and expected that 42 were nearby  :Wink:  There are some others, as 40-41, 90-91 or 60-61 for example. Separate the map into districts can be useful too. Of course this is not redhibitory and on the opposite placing totaly random numbers can be used for role playing : A GM can ask the players to go to some place and gives EXP/Bunnies/etc to the player who found the POI the first (or penalize her/him if her/his character is supposed to have a low INT/WIT/perception/etc.  :Wink:  )
Wait, I just realized that you have district names on your nightly map, why not have a map with district labels and POI numbers ?
For the pdf thing, I am not sure to understand completely but why not simply insert the maps as images in a word processor document and export it as a pdf ?

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## XCali

> Hey XCali !
> I missed this thread and first of all I just want to tell you that your city map is splendid.
> Because of the large number of POI, putting numbers is the good choice, with only labels it would be too hard to find something on the map. For me, the labels are clear and easely readable, no need for banners. Now, from a player's or gm's perspective, to find a point quickly on a map it would be best if the numbers were ordered geographically. Most are, but some are isolated : I did a test with "42" and I spent a lot of time finding him because I immediately found the 43-49 pack and expected that 42 were nearby  There are some others, as 40-41, 90-91 or 60-61 for example. Separate the map into districts can be useful too. Of course this is not redhibitory and on the opposite placing totaly random numbers can be used for role playing : A GM can ask the players to go to some place and gives EXP/Bunnies/etc to the player who found the POI the first (or penalize her/him if her/his character is supposed to have a low INT/WIT/perception/etc.  )
> Wait, I just realized that you have district names on your nightly map, why not have a map with district labels and POI numbers ?
> For the pdf thing, I am not sure to understand completely but why not simply insert the maps as images in a word processor document and export it as a pdf ?


Thank you so much!  :Very Happy: 

Also, I do appreciate you taking the time to discuss my questions.  :Smile:  
Yeah, the number placement didn't work out as well as I hoped. I was trying to make the numbers lead a trail throughout the city. But some of them got lost when I had to backtrack from outside the city. I'll try to make easier to follow from 1 all the up to the end.  :Wink: 

In the end I think the versions of this map I feel I should make make available for GMs and DMs are:

Night Full Resolution - Just Title, No numbers or labels.
Day Full Resolution - Just Title, No numbers or labels.

Night Full Resolution - Title, District names
Day Full Resolution - Title, District names

Night Full Resolution - Title, District names and numbers
Day Full Resolution - Title, District names and numbers

Black and White - Title, no names or numbers

(I am not sure if there should be versions without the title name?)

What do you think, Tenia?  :Smile: 
(Or anyone just checking in)

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## Tenia

You're welcome  :Wink: 
What is the purpose of publishing maps with no names or numbers ? If it's for the GMs can show these maps to the players without showing them POI, just title (and district names optionaly)  is ok for me. If it is to offer a "blank" map to the GMs so they can add their own POI or title (and you are perfectly right to not allow this), a map with no title, POI or label is enough.
It would also be interesting to add pieces of your maps to your PDF showing the different districts, so that users don't have to zoom in to see particular places ?
If you intend to publish these maps for online RPG like Fantasy Ground or roll20, adding low res versions of the map would be cool, as size is to be taken into consideration for some games like FG where there is no central server and the download is constrained by the bandwith of the GM's station.
A must would be to add battleground size pictures of different places (usually 100px or 70px for 5") but I understand that your map was not made for this purpose and you would have a lot of work to remove the pixelization.

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## XCali

> You're welcome 
> What is the purpose of publishing maps with no names or numbers ? If it's for the GMs can show these maps to the players without showing them POI, just title (and district names optionaly)  is ok for me. 
> 
> It would also be interesting to add pieces of your maps to your PDF showing the different districts, so that users don't have to zoom in to see particular places ?
> 
> If you intend to publish these maps for online RPG like Fantasy Ground or roll20, adding low res versions of the map would be cool, as size is to be taken into consideration for some games like FG where there is no central server and the download is constrained by the bandwith of the GM's station.
> 
> A must would be to add battleground size pictures of different places (usually 100px or 70px for 5") but I understand that your map was not made for this purpose and you would have a lot of work to remove the pixelization.


Indeed the JUST title version would be for DM showing it without the POI.  :Smile: 

Having the smaller districts as their images, that is something I can try. Though it does create a lot of extra work. But, I will see if I can at least add some districts  :Wink: 
Example?


The low res for the site like FG and Roll20, does Pixel by Pixel size matter when I export it at a lower quality for those?

_"A must would be to add battleground size pictures"_  I have not seen city maps presented this way on those RPG shops? Though if I go this direction, it would be a bunch of new maps most properly.

Here is the Night version with the District names AND the numbers. I did spend quite some time to move numbers around so that they are a lot easier to follow. There are still some that might be harder to follow. Like from 40-41 or 67-68 or 93-94. Though not close to as hard as before.

### Latest WIP ###

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## Tenia

> The low res for the site like FG and Roll20, does Pixel by Pixel size matter when I export it at a lower quality for those?


Don't know for roll20, but for FG the recommendations are picture dimensions of no more that 4k X 4k (some say 2k) and file size about 1M, so I think you can just export your maps in a lower quality jpeg




> _"A must would be to add battleground size pictures"_  I have not seen city maps presented this way on those RPG shops? Though if I go this direction, it would be a bunch of new maps most properly.


Yes, I said that because GMs ALWAYS need battlemaps  :Wink:

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## XCali

> Don't know for roll20, but for FG the recommendations are picture dimensions of no more that 4k X 4k (some say 2k) and file size about 1M, so I think you can just export your maps in a lower quality jpeg
> 
> 
> Yes, I said that because GMs ALWAYS need battlemaps


Okay, cool beans! That wouldn't be too much of a problem. I'll be sure to add low res versions as well.  :Wink: 

I will see if I can make battlemaps for certain places on the map. Though, that would be a side thing apart from this. 

Anyway, tell me something, are you a GM or do you play tabletop RPGs?  :Smile:

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## Tenia

> Okay, cool beans! That wouldn't be too much of a problem. I'll be sure to add low res versions as well. 
> 
> I will see if I can make battlemaps for certain places on the map. Though, that would be a side thing apart from this. 
> 
> Anyway, tell me something, are you a GM or do you play tabletop RPGs?


I am an intermittent old gm and an eternal young player  :Wink:

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## XCali

> I am an intermittent old gm and an eternal young player


Hehehe  :Very Happy: 

Well, the important is that you enjoy it  :Wink:

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