# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Building/Structure Mapping >  The Lionburgh - fortress guarding the ancient city of Ostwyc

## Caenwyr

Hi all!

So a while back I created a map for the city of Ostwyc. It was a veritable monster of a map, and took me months to complete. I didn't mind, it was a fun experience, and since it was a personal project, I could take all the time I wanted to explore side tracks and loose myself in them. 

One of these side tracks that didn't make the cut was an ISO view of the fortress straddling the city wall: the Lionburgh. At the time I was quite pleased with it, and it was mostly lack of map real estate that made me decide to leave it off. Now I'm glad I didn't use it. Man was that a crude bit of mapping!  :Very Happy: 



Since I'm currently between maps for a certain commission (and since that particular fortress/palace kept popping up in my mind), I decided to take another go at it. So here it goes. 

This is a section of the original map, conveniently warped for ISO-ification:


On which I then started drawing the different levels. Getting them all aligned was the biggest challenge, but this way I can be confident that the ISO castle and the one on the map are indeed identical. 

This is what I have for the moment:
 

I'm now asking myself if I should do all the houses around it as well. Well, actually I feel like I should, but I errr... don' wanna.  :Razz:  Lots of pain-in-the-ass tedious linework that will just be overlooked... Or will it? What is your opinion?

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## Gidde

I really love the fortress, but the town is a bit blurred and the fortress isn't, which is making it seem unnatural. If you either did do the buildings iso, or blurred the fortress to match the rest of the town a bit better, it might help? Sorry, I'm much better at identifying issues than solving them lol.

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## Caenwyr

Oh no, that last image is just to show what goes where! It's a blown up version of a section of my original map to guide my hand. Sure it's blurry, but it won't be in the final version.

I guess what I was asking is this: does that image (with the blank background) work as it is, or should I draw in all of the houses (in the locations of that last image) too?

Basically I think it'd be better WITH the houses (if nothing else, it'd give me the opportunity to draw that cool temple near the upper border, and those pastures south of the wall), but it's gonna be such a long tedious job, so I kinda hope you guys go,
"nah man, leave them off!"

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## rdanhenry

Well, it is a matter of what you are trying to show: is it the fortress or is it the fortress and its immediate surroundings? Either is a valid choice, but the intent pretty much dictates what you should do, so that is the level at which you need to decide.

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## DanielHasenbos

Firstly, the fortress looks great! I believe  you shared that older drawing of he fortress and my first thought was that it was a bit mediocre compared to the rest of the map. This illustration definitely isnt. 

No I get that you dont want to draw all the buildings, but the blank version also doesnt really work. I think theres two things you can do. 

You could add a key and maybe some other drawings around the fortress. Perhaps a floor plan or some cartouche like pieces with text about the fortress. This way the map (I call it a map but its more an illustration I guess  :Wink: ) wont feel so empty. 

Otherwise I guess you indeed have to draw all the houses. It will be tedious but I believe the result will be amazing!

Thats my two cents! Hope it helps!

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## Wingshaw

> Firstly, the fortress looks great! I believe  you shared that older drawing of he fortress and my first thought was that it was a bit mediocre compared to the rest of the map. This illustration definitely isn’t. 
> 
> No I get that you don’t want to draw all the buildings, but the blank version also doesn’t really work. I think there’s two things you can do. 
> 
> You could add a key and maybe some other drawings around the fortress. Perhaps a floor plan or some cartouche like pieces with text about the fortress. This way the map (I call it a map but it’s more an illustration I guess ) won’t feel so empty. 
> 
> Otherwise I guess you indeed have to draw all the houses. It will be tedious but I believe the result will be amazing!
> 
> That’s my two cents! Hope it helps!


Or a third option, you could start drawing the buildings/locations closest to the castle and allow them to fade into nothingness as you get further from the castle walls. That way you can show the buildings as context, put the castle to scale, and still have complete control of how much extra work you give yourself.

Wingshaw

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## - JO -

Very nice fortress ! Lots of good ideas !

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## Caenwyr

Thanks guys! It's all valuable input. I slept on it (well, I waked on it while trying to get our little one to sleep  :Razz:  ) and decided I would do a sort of hybrid of all of the above. I started this map with the idea of doing a bunch of cut-outs on it, and I'll definitely experiment with that for a bit, but I'll also add a simplified floor plan (focused largely on the defensive structures), a few cartouches and of course a legend. And in the area that remains, I'll go ahead and draw in the houses around the fortress just to give the viewers a sense of its enormous scale.

Also, I decided to rotate the frame, so now it's in portrait mode. I started drawing in the first series of houses, and this is where I'm right now:

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## Caenwyr

Update!

Houses in the bottom part of the map ;-)



I'm now wondering if that colouring isn't distracting from the main subject: the fortress! Maybe I should tone down the colour, or leave it out entirely?

What do you guys think?

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## Adfor

I think it looks splendid as it stands now! You have such a brilliant way about your city designs, fantastic work so far!

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## Caenwyr

thanks Adfor!

Okay, so I really can't help myself. I noticed the fortress popping out of the map left and right (an effect I actually like in itself), and started getting annoyed by the fact that some of those parts would actually be hidden away by houses - if I were to draw them. So that wasn't logical, right? I couldn't just leave off the houses, but show the stairs etc that they would cover. 

So naturally (ahem) I widened the map again, forcing me to draw even more houses! Sometimes I think I subconsciously hate myself.  :Razz:  

BUT! I found a way that really speeds things up, so it's no longer a tedious process. If you find yourself drawing 3D houses based on a ISO-ified ground plan and are curious about a quick(-ish) way to go about it, let me know. 

Also, I added a top-down floorplan of the entire beast, showing pillars (a lot of them!) and inner walls. It also allows viewers to get a better view of the sections hidden behind higher structures on the 3D view below. I might decide to rotate the floorplan 90° CW, not sure about that one yet.  :Wink:

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## QED42

Looking really great so far!

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## rdanhenry

> So naturally (ahem) I widened the map again, forcing me to draw even more houses! Sometimes I think I subconsciously hate myself.


If you can keep your self-loathing subconscious, you're doing better than many.

You have a tower that appears to be 11 stories tall. When the term "skyscraper" first appeared in the late 1800s, this would have qualified. It would need either modern steel-frame construction techniques or magic for support (assuming human-sized inhabitants). You may well have already considered this, but I thought I might as well comment on something about the map as long as I was posting.

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## Lars

This looks fantastic! I'm excited to see the finished result.




> You have a tower that appears to be 11 stories tall. When the term "skyscraper" first appeared in the late 1800s, this would have qualified. It would need either modern steel-frame construction techniques or magic for support (assuming human-sized inhabitants). You may well have already considered this, but I thought I might as well comment on something about the map as long as I was posting.


Well, since 50 m+ fortified keeps (Château de Vincennes, Château de Coucy) and 150 m+ cathedral spires (Lincoln Cathedral) were built in Europe during the Middle Ages, I don't see why the tower could not have been built using good old masonry techniques.

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## Caenwyr

Thanks both of you guys for your helpful input! I must admit I hadn't paid much thought to the height of the keep, so I'm glad to learn Lars managed to find some precedents! I wouldn't have changed it anymore anyway, not at this stage. Glad to know it's acceptable to architectural historians too!  :Razz: 

Since my last update I added the remaining houses, and I also did a fading effect on the houses (and not on the castle itself!), to give the impression of depth. I have a version without that effect too, but it's a bit too confusing to my poor eyes. If you want to see it, give me a yell. 

I also added a shield (a somewhat cleaner redo from the one on the original Ostwyc map), rotated the floor plan and moved it to the left side, and I left a big spot on the right for the legend and all that other stuff.



I still gotta shade this beast too. I've been putting it off until now, but with the last of the houses done, I don't think I can postpone it any longer  :Razz:

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## MapMappingMapped

Impressive! I'll have to keep a hungry eye on this one.

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## - JO -

Maybe you hate yourself, but the result is really good ! Each WIP, the map looks better ! Good job !!!

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## QED42

Looking amazing. I might have missed it but is there a plan for windows on what I assume is the big church in the castle? It looks like it could do with some nice stained glass ones along the side.

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## Caenwyr

> Impressive! I'll have to keep a hungry eye on this one.


Thanks MMM!




> Maybe you hate yourself, but the result is really good ! Each WIP, the map looks better ! Good job !!!


Thanks Jo! It's slow progress, but at least it's me who's breathing down my neck  :Razz: 




> Looking amazing. I might have missed it but is there a plan for windows on what I assume is the big church in the castle? It looks like it could do with some nice stained glass ones along the side.


Dang, I was hoping nobody would notice, so I could quietly slip them in in my next update. I could make up a story about a religion all about worshiping the Darkness or the Lord of Night or something like that, but I'm afraid I simply forgot to draw them in... Keep an eye out for them in the update after this one. 

For now, here's my almost-finished shading. Boy-ee, this is hard work with all these different heights and elevations! But I think I got most of it right. Or at least right-ish. Still gotta do the upper right corner, but I couldn't keep from posting an update any longer. I'm all giddy!



Ooh yeah, I moved around the top-down plan and the shield again - they're probably in their final positions now. I think  :Razz:

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## Caenwyr

OK, shading is done, and I threw in a bunch of windows in the chapel! Thanks for pointing that out, @QED42!



Next up is labelling!

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## - JO -

Your immense work is really very profitable: the map is magnificent! It is a very good idea to have also drawn the houses in perspective. And the shadows bring out all the grandiose beauty of the citadel! Very, very beautiful! Congratulations!

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## QED42

The windows look great, this map is turning out amazing!

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## Tenia

I concur with others fellow guildmembers, this map is impressive! I particulary love the fading and shadowing work, a great fortress!

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## arsheesh

Great layout and use of atmospheric perspective.  This looks wonderful.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## MistyBeee

Hey, how did I miss this thread ?! This view looks absolutely stunning, Caenwyr !

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