# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  Sagemound [WIP]

## J.Edward

I guess it was the February challenge - an evolving map - where i started Haerlech. 
However, that was not the first map I started trying to work on for that particular challenge.
I actually had started on 2 or 3 before settling on Haerlech. The second one was Sagemound.
I was going to show the evolving of a small hill top village into a bigger town.
I got into it a bit and quickly realized that I would not have the time and so moved on.
Now I've come back to it and started working on it again. Because... why not have loads of semi-finished maps.

I am trying to keep at Haerlech and the Frog Lorde dungeon as well as my freelance work which is challenging for time.
But I like this sort of town map so I am just doing it anyway. Time be damned.  :Wink: 

Any how, these are some of the earlier images just to get this wip started.
  

And here's where I'm at right now.


This was originally going to be just a black and white map but it may end up in color. Still not sure on that point.
I am not sure if I want to do the whole evolving map thing. It takes a really long time as Haerlech can attest to.
We shall see. I was also thinking of doing another Bourmout style map, with the perspective town. Time will tell on that as well.

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## Larb

Lets all go jump in the the well-cistern-thing. =P

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## Korash

CAAAANNNNOOOONNNN BAAAAAAAAALLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

Looking reall NICE!!

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## Chashio

It's neat being able to see your original ideas along with the wip... which is looking fabulous. I hope you can do a perspective drawing of it at some point, and in color, but whatever you end up with will be awesome.

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## J.Edward

Larb and Korash.... Thanks.  :Smile:  Maybe I could change it... but that isn't a water feature.  :Confused:  
It's supposed to be a platform with a statue at the back.Maybe it doesn't look like it should. Hmmmm....
Chashio - Thanks.  :Smile:  I'm going to try to do the perspective and color. I want to see if I can do a black and white too. Full plate.  :Wink: 

Well, here's another update... more shadow.

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## Chashio

> Full plate.


Same. I completely understand. But, hey, you're making quick work of the grayscale version so I'm gonna hold out hope for color and perspective at some point.  :Wink: 
The platform... maybe the raised stonework around the edge could be flattened so the shadow doesn't trick the eye into thinking depression > pool of water?

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## J.Edward

Well Chashio, you are assured of color, at the very least.  :Wink: 
First base layers of color started. Much more to do but it's moving along.

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## Ilanthar

That's awesome! You put so many details in those pretty buildings... A perspective drawing would surely be impressive.

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## Bogie

Great J.Edwards!  Love the details like a rock wall for safety where the road is close to the edge of the cliff.

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## Larb

Are those sewer grates on the town map?

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## J.Edward

Thanks Ilanthar.  :Smile:  I'm going to try, if time permits.  :Wink: 
Thanks Bogie.  :Smile:  I need to add more, like more trees and some stuff in the town square.
Larb - yes, they are. I am considering doing a sewer/undertown map. Maybe something that leads down to caverns or something.
Again, time will determine how far I get with those plans. Here's a crop of full size with the sewer grates.


When I'm done I'll upload a larger map so the details can be seen better.

A bit more color laid down. I wanted to try something like greenish grey slate roof tiles.
I'm not completely convinced yet but I still have some alternate color tiling to do and some highlights as well so maybe I'll be okay with this roof color scheme. 
Otherwise I'll have to redo the whole roof color. So here's where I'm at currently.

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## ChickPea

I'm drooling over this. It's looking incredible already!

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## J.Edward

Running... out... of... steam... got a bit more done but I'm just not feelin it today.
I did some roof variation and some other textural stuff but I'm tired and it seems less than satisfying to me.
I'm not quite diggin the grass look. I'll have to try something else there.
I think the greenish grey slate roofing is making the town seem a bit lack luster.
Anyway, here's where I got to before I burned out.  :Wink: 


Oh, thank you ChickPea.  :Smile:

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## Abu Lafia

Man, your town layouts are really stunning! I like the "connected" houses a lot, it gives this nice cozy/cramped feeling of medieval towns. Don't know exactly what you think is "lackluster" with the roofs, in my view they look fantastic, but i have to admit that i really like slate roofs...  :Wink:  ...and yeah, i agree with the others, to see another "Bourmout-like" perspective on this one would be wonderful, but please not at all costs (e.g. burning out  :Wink:  ) ... take care!
Cheers,
AL

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## Bogie

I like the slate roofs.  There are a couple roofs that you did a narrow band of light tan tiles on the edge,  it is a nice look.  I think if you just did that to a couple more of the larger roofs then the whole town will look even better.

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## Ilanthar

The roofs are fantastic imho. Concerning the grass, I confess I liked the less saturated color you had before, but as far as I can see, the texturing looks fine to me.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Abu.  :Smile:  I am going to try.
Thanks as well Ilanthar.  :Smile:  I'm still thinking about the grass. It may change, I'm not sure.
Thanks Bogie.  :Smile:  I think what you're talking about are the buildings that have stone around the roofs. 
Sort of like Anglo-Saxon buildings I think.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/...61c237bd96.jpg

That being said, maybe a few more buildings could stand to be done that way.

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## RigoIII

Love it! You could stop there and have an awesome map! Frankly I love what you did with the roofs too.

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## J.Edward

Thanks Rigo.  :Smile: 
I started last night on trying to get the perspective part started.

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## arsheesh

This is coming along beautifully J.  Look forward to the next update.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Lingon

Very pretty! I hope the steam returns. The stronger green in the latest update is better than the pale green, in my opinion; the map as a whole was too grey before, but now the buildings pop much better. If you increase the contrast in the roofs just a little, I'll like it even more  :Smile:

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## Sharpsmile

J. your map style is so nice to look at, your landscapes have such a distinct, smooth look to them.  I was looking at your rooftops and I really like the different stone textures, like on the main tower where the rim is different than the rest of the roof, so I agree with Bogie that some more of that spread throughout should help.  

Also, I just wanted to say that I really like your hillsides, in many of your maps I have admired these.

~ Sharpie

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## Domino44

Your skill and talent isn't fair! This looks so fantastic!

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## J.Edward

Thanks Arsheesh.  :Smile:  I'm hoping to get an update in the next day or two.
I've been working on the perspective work. It's taking a bit longer than I anticipated.

Thanks Lingon.  :Smile: 
Thanks so much Sharpie.  :Smile:  I will have to put up a pic that explains that part of the building better.
Domino - Thank you.  :Smile:  The skill comes with a cost. You have to realize... I have no personal life. Just work.  :Wink:

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## Francissimo

Your work on shadows is incredible, really a nice piece to see! Are you only working with Photoshop?

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## J.Edward

Thanks Francissimo.  :Smile:  Yep, just PS.
With Bourmout I started with a pencil drawing, where I had drawn the shadows first in pencil.
With Sagemound I did it all in PS. Well, I had a quick outline sketch from pencil but all the detail and shadows were conceived and drawn in PS.

I did start on the perspective part, for those who had asked about that. 
I am working on the color right now. I'm trying to get an update for tonight or tomorrow.
I'm still trying to decide how I want the final layout to look though.

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## J.Edward

So here's a quick little update for today.
It's still not set on how I'll finalize the look but the perspective will be at the top this time.
Only at the base color stage on the perspective. No shadows yet. Sky color may change.
Probably will add some fluffy clouds. May add some more trees to both the perspective and the top down map.
Anyway, here's a larger crop of the perspective and a full map image. All still a bit rough.

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## Chick

This may sound strange, but I don't like the side view on top.  In your previous one, Bourmout, where it was on the bottom, the flow into the top down view was smooth and came from behind the side view.  In this one, it feels like the whole heavy weight of the town is sitting on top of the paper map.  It just doesn't feel right or flow right to me somehow.  I love the map and drawing themselves, it's just the overall balance.  In Bourmout, the side view anchored the map;  here it makes it top heavy.  Just my humble opinion....

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## J.Edward

Ironically I would agree chick. I was trying it the other way as I had a number of complaints about Bourmout.
Some didn't like the way there was no sky and a few other reasons.
I liked the way Bourmout was grounded with the perspective view.

I'd welcome other opinions. I think it would look better done as Bourmout was done.

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## Larb

I actually prefer it at the top simply because it is more natural because of the sky. What I also think it might be worth doing is scaling down the side view image size so that it matches up with the map 1:1. You'll lose some of the detail but I think it might read better.

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## Falconius

To me with it on the top it doesn't have a good visual flow.  I'd expect that if it were put on the bottom the images would be far more distinct unto themselves (I don't think a border would really solve this issue).  I would agree with Larbs suggestion of going 1:1 since that is what I naturally assumed it was.

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## rdanhenry

The poor visual flow comes from trying to jam two mismatched images together too much. Even the differences in the green grass for each clashes under these circumstances, because they butt directly against each other. The signature inviting the eye to cross the boundary as one background to the signature just makes it worse. I think just a little bit of border around the map, including between the top-down and side-view parts, would fix the issue (along with moving the signature somewhere that doesn't cross the boundaries. There's plenty of room.)

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## J.Edward

Thanks for the input Larb. I will think that over. I know Bourmout was closer to a 1:1 ratio. Of course the top down map of Bourmout also went closer to the edge of the map.
I would really have to reduce the perspective view to a much smaller version and I'm not sure if I'm prepared to do that.
Falconius - thanks for the input too. If it went on the bottom it would be done much as Bourmout was. I don't see why it would be a problem though.

rdanhenry.... I am trying to decide if you are joking or serious. I still can't decide.
I'll assume you are being serious. 
I'm not really even sure how to respond to that.
This is a wip. A WIP. It is nowhere near done. I am showing progress steps. 
The sig is not a final one. They are always done at the bottom. As in all my other work.
The colors... base colors, as stated, not complete. This is just one of many steps before this is completed.
There's still a lot of work to do. Addressing this as though one is addressing a finished piece doesn't make sense.

Perhaps I should not have shown people this step as it seems to be causing more issues. Perhaps I won't in the future.

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## J.Edward

Okay, so it's been a while since I had done anything with Sagemound.
I messed about with it the other day and got to the point I'm at now.
I'm not super thrilled with this layout and may well change it by here it is at the current point.

All the text is just placeholder text at the moment. Also, that main scroll will be changed or removed.
It just doesn't really fit right. The trees aren't done yet either.
The scribbly bits at the top are just quick concept sketches for what will be done later.

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## ChickPea

Ah those cliffs!  :Very Happy: 

I think I was one of the few who didn't hate the village at the top. It looks good at the bottom, but I can't quite decide if I still prefer it at the top. I do like your icons along the side and think they really pull everything together. Do you do all of this in PS? 

The village itself is utterly fantastic. I can't say enough good things about it.

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## J.Edward

Thanks ChickPea.  :Smile: 
Yep. All in PS.
I had wanted to have it at the top but I didn't really plan it out properly.

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## Abu Lafia

Simply stunning J.!  :Smile:  Besides the excellent "iso-view" i so much hoped for but somehow missed till now, i really like the depiction of the single houses on the frame. Great work!

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## J.Edward

Thanks Abu.  :Smile: 
Doing the houses on the side, instead of a numbered list, came from seeing your Shilfah village.  :Very Happy: 
So I am making some changes and adding bits that will take me much longer to do. 
I ask myself sometimes why I do this to myself. Oh well, it's only time.
So new plant border which will have some nice green leaves, roots at the bottom, some custom Sagemound lettering.
I may have to shrink those side houses so I can fit some more text with each house to give more story in there.

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## tainotim

Very nice J. Edward!  This will be incredible when finished.  Personally (based on the sketch) I prefer the first version you showed today, without the plant border. I worry that it might become to "much" with such a illustrative border, if you know what I mean.

For mapping purpose some numbers connecting the houses at the side to the actual map would be great. There is so much going on with the gray roof tiles that it's slightly hard to distinguish which house is which. Just to help with clarity, a little bit  :Smile: 

Looking forward to next update.

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## J.Edward

Thanks for the feedback on that Tainotim. I had wondered about that - whether people could distinguish which building was which.
I had originally planned to do the same thing here as with Bourmout and just do a backpage that had all the details.
Perhaps I should do that. It would certainly make this process easier and clearer.

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## tainotim

No no, don't give up, I love what you have going here! You could easily add clarity by writing "1. Bider House",  "2. Mengin House" etc.  And then just simply add the numbers beside the appropriate building like on any top-down city map. Easy and effective, not much more work  :Smile: 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## Chick

> No no, don't give up, I love what you have going here! You could easily add clarity by writing "1. Bider House",  "2. Mengin House" etc.  And then just simply add the numbers beside the appropriate building like on any top-down city map. Easy and effective, not much more work 
> 
> Cheers,
> Tainotim


I second this, I'm still trying to find the Mengin House  :Smile: 

But once you number them, there doesn't seem to be much reason to show them individually either, so I'm not sure what would work best.

In any case, I love the front view at the bottom, much much better  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

Thanks for the input tainotim and chick.  :Smile: 
I agree with what you both have said.

It is a fait accompli. I already altered it on the premise of the frontpage/backpage style.
It'll be ok. It's a bit more work but the result will be good I think.
The backpage will give me more uncluttered room to add more info which I wouldn't have had on the front.
I know it makes for an unconventional map. It's kind of more like a picture and a map but I'm okay with that.

The real problem, I think, was that I didn't have a solid plan for this one when I started. Or rather, I had a plan but I didn't stick to it.
I think that has made this one seem wrong for a while. I have another map/perspec piece in the works [sketch] that hopefully will address this better without going to the frontpage/backpage thing again. 

I'll post something of Sagemound later when it's a bit further along.

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## snodsy

Absolutely love this one, I think its one of your best. It was great to see how you solved the problems that were discussed. Thanks for sharing your process it's really inspiring.

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## Ilanthar

Stunning work and excellent idea for the layout! Whatever option you choose, it's already a beautiful map.

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## J.Edward

Thanks snodsy.  :Smile:  It's still evolving and changing.
I did a big complicated border, then scrapped the whole thing and started redoing it.
Scrapped that one too and am now on a third version. I may show those.
Hoping to complete this by the end of the weekend.

Thank you Ilanthar.  :Smile: 

Hopefully the end product will live up to these compliments.  :Smile: 
May have an update later today.

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## ChickPea

Looking forward to your next update.  :Smile:

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## Korash

Nicework J.E., I really like the look of the iso view...with one exception... and not sure if things have progressed too far for it...And that is that the iso view gives NO sense that the town sits on top of some cliffs. When I look at the plan view the cliffs, and how the town layout is influenced by them, are some of the most interesting features of the town. And I don't get that from the iso view. Looking at the relation of the two views, I can see that there are spaces where part of the cliffs can be shown (the top of the front cliffs and some of the side cliffs) without changing the scale of it at all.

With your last update, I noticed that you are starting to bring some separation between the two views, which IMO is a good idea, but I think you need to do a bit more of a fade between the two. The roads from the plan view are still too vivid when the reach the iso...

Looking forward to where you bring the borders .

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## J.Edward

Thanks ChickPea and Korash.  :Smile: 
Korash - I can see what you're saying but, yes, it is far past that point now.
I will take that advice for future works.
All the feedback has been helpful even if it did not find it's way into this piece.
I always appreciate the feedback. And I do think about it when doing new works.

I am fairly happy with how this one has turned out. It was a bit of an annoying struggle.
I am basically done with the one exception of finishing a few trees and maybe adding a few more trees.
So here is where I am at now. Frontpage and backpage...
 

edit - Here's the finished frontpage. 
I decided not to add more trees. Too much time and work there.
And Haerlech calls to me...

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## Abu Lafia

Wonderful work, J.! I think the choice of front- and backpage is very good, seeing the lot of lovely information on all the buildings (btw.: there are some typos in it, you shuold have a look at...). The border roots/branches are just spectacular.

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## ravells

Wow, there is so much to like with this map. First, the roof tiling is great and irregular. Second the shadows work well, did you draw them or is it a 3d model? 3. The fish eye contour view of the cliffs (very well drawn) also calls to me. Most of all, I like the frontal elevation. It gives you so much more of an idea of what the place is like.  I really do like the way that you have not used an inset line between the map and the elevation so the flow isn't broken.  Can you tell us a little more about the place? Who lives there? What is the surrounding location like? Politics? Function? The atmosphere the map conveys to me is of quite a happy, prosperous place. It's bright, no ruined bits. Is that the right conclusion I should draw?  My only reservation is the copies of the buildings in the side panels. They are drawn at the same size as the ones already on the map and don't add any more information. Maybe cutaways or floorplans of these buildings would be more informative (but the work.....the work...).  Loving it so far though, you're really talented, J.E!

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## J.Edward

Thanks Abu.  :Smile:  Yeah, there were a lot of typos. Thanks for letting me know.  :Wink: 
Thank you as well Ravs.  :Smile:  I just put up a finished map thread that has the history in there.
http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...164#post273164
Regarding the shadows, they are all drawn in PS along with everything else here. I think this is the first time I did nearly everything in PS.
Well, I guess I did start from a rough pencil sketch, so not everything.
I would say you are right on target about the feel of the place.
I originally wanted to do the sewers and underground caverns as well. Not sure if that will manifest or not.
It would be very cool to do a small map module with the building floorplans and sewers and surrounding land.
Maybe once I know more about how to go about it I can do something like that with DTRPG.

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