# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  Osengaard or Egads! Not another city :D

## Steel General

OK, here's another one I have in the works. I play around with this one in between projects at work. Still a long ways to go. Just to touch on some of "high points";

Osengaard is meant to be placed in temperate to taiga (I think that's the word) climate. Think Cimmerians, vikings, etc.

- Large harbor fortress (this would be a fairly recent addition in terms of city history)

- The harbor is largely complete with warehouses, a couple of taverns, an inn, and a brothel.

- The bluish-green building in the SE is a temple to Droghaan (God of the Seas), there is a dolphin statue on the top. Still more to add here.

- The main/keep castle is in the far north on an island

- The whitish-blue area is the 'Tower of Frost' a temple complex to Bhoryaal (God of Blizzards, Cold, Ice, Snow, Winter), they are also famous for hiring out as mercenaries. The entire complex is perpetually shrouded in frost, snow, and ice. Not sure if I am entirely happy with the effect, but it'll work for now. Still some things to be added here.

So as usual C&C is welcomed. Looking forward to hearing from you.

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## RPMiller

I believe the temple is in the SW, yes? As for the ice area, I have to agree. It looks a bit more like fog than snow/ice, but it does give an interesting effect of like dry ice melting.

I really like your water and grassy terrain.
The buildings don't feel right for some reason though. The map has a photorealistic quality and the buildings seem to be in contrast to that. Maybe soften the edges? Not sure on that one.

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## landorl

I agree with RPMiller about the buildings.  The land and sea seem to have an almost blurred effect to them, but then all of the buildings are quite crisp, and the two effects don't seem to work too well.

Also, just a quick question.  Is the whole area between the keep to the north and the docks going to be filled with buildings?  If it is, that will be quite some city!

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## Steel General

RP you are right, I meant SW... ooops!

Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to give a try to blurring (or something) the layers with the buildings and see how it comes out.




> Also, just a quick question.  Is the whole area between the keep to the north and the docks going to be filled with buildings?  If it is, that will be quite some city!


Not quite everything, just mainly the center "third or so" of the map. The area in between the 2 main North-South running roads. The rest will have a few, buildings scattered across it. It is supposed to be a decent sized city.

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## Hinaloth

Hum ... there is no delta, is the river is boat-crossable (can't find the word >_< to sall, to sal, to seal, to sael ... to sale ? >_<)? If so, well, the mouth is ... let's say strange. Ans the castle is to small. But this out, it's a really nice map  :Smile:

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## Steel General

Thanks... the scale of the map is 1 pxl = 1 ft, so I don't think the castle is all that small really.

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## Hinaloth

Then the other building are really big ... I think. Anyway, nice overview  :Very Happy:

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## Jkaen

It depends, I saw the castle more as a coastal outlook fort than a central capital city type capital. (Basically 1 step up from a look out tower)

I don't think the black outlining works on the battlements either, I think removing this may help it match the feel of the background.

Also what is the thing in the north?

EDIT: Nevermind I got the terms mixed up, I think the harbour fortress is fine, I agree the main castle seems a bit small (mainly the central tower bit of it)

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## Steel General

Well the idea, which I guess I didn't get across very well, is that the 'castle/keep' in the north is very old, the very first building constructed, hence why it is so small, and there is little room to expand it on the island. I'll probably need to add some interior 'buildings' within the walls, to fill it out a bit.

When I get a chance I'll try removing the 'outline' and see how it looks.

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## Jkaen

Ahh if there is a background story as to why its small thats a different matter. But yes I would assume if they wanted to expand but couldn't they would use as much of the available space up as possible on the island

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## Sigurd

Very very promising,

Perhaps you should extend the snow a little beyond the castle walls as the real weather asserts itself? You might extend it little further in the walls shadow or stretched by the prevailing winds.

I wonder what the affects of condensation would be if warm air the castle all summer?

Thats easily the most successful unnatural winter that I can think of in any map.

Good job.


Sigurd

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## Ascension

What I see is that the "barn" furthest east has a darker shadow than the other buildings and you've got some tiling in the south where the land meets the water.  I'm not the scale police so I don't really care so long as it all holds together upon completion, even if it means changing the scale when done...I do that all the time.  So far it looks pretty good though so I can't wait to see it finished.

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## Steel General

OK, here's an update on this here beastie...taking into account the comments, etc. I have received so far, here is what I updated.

1) Completely redid the 'waterfront/docks' - rather than using pre-rendered building images, I went for the basic building shape w/texture look. The texture needs to be re-worked as it is not seamless, but that's not a big deal.

2) Added some more houses, taverns/inns, etc. that expand out from the docks.

3) Re-worked the 'frost/ice/snow' effect on the temple complex and expanded it out beyond the walls slightly. Also added some additional tents.

4) Added some interior structure to castle/keep (northern part of map)

5) Added an experimental small farm, just north of the docks. Particularly interested in opinions/comments on this as to whether it 'works' or not.

6) Tried to clean-up some tiling near the coastline(s)


As always C&C is welcomed, encouraged, dreaded (just kidding  :Very Happy: ) etc.

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## RPMiller

Have to say that the farm doesn't 'work' for me, but the idea is decent. The field is just too rigid and "clean" I think.

You know it just occurred to me that the ice temple could make some serious coinage by selling ice to the taverns and fisheries down stream and it would be easy to transport too. In fact, they could even hold the down stream docks hostage by damming up the river behind a big wall of ice and threatening to unleash it all at once if a proper "tribute" wasn't paid.  :Shocked: 

The buildings are a little better, but I think what might make them work even better is to sharpen the terrain more. The terrain is blurred so much that it has a sort of hazy softness to it that contrasts with the crisp sharpness of the buildings.

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## Tancread

The road through the field is clever, but I am not sure it works, the part on the inside of the road looks at points to be too narrow to be worth much effort, especially as the part on the outside of the road isn't really closed in by anything except the field edge.

At the range the map needs to be viewed at the frost effects look great, up close they seem a bit off, but I wouldn't mess with it. I often forget that the players will be looking at this without being zoomed in and try to over cook things myself.

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## Steel General

The whole crops/field thing was a bit of an experiment, I wanted to see if the pattern I had downloaded for the field looked any good. I think the concept works, it's just not in the correct place, and as RP said it is a bit 'to clean'. It would probably be better served to be moved a distance outside of the main city, more toward the edges of the map and be a bit less uniform.

I'm still not completely sold on the frost field either, I'll just keep tinkering with it until I get something I can live with without doubting my efforts.

@RPMiller - I never thought about the whole ice thing for taverns, etc. Or even causing an ice dam in the river.  The deity the temple complex is dedicated to is a cantankerous bastard who no one outside of his worshipers particularly likes. Having his priests, etc extort the city sounds like something he would want done. Great idea!

I'll look into 'sharpening' up the terrain, can't remember exactly what I did (don't have the file at home), but I may have turned down the opacity a bit to much. More experimenting... yippee!! Ah well, that's half the fun of making these maps.

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## Tancread

The pattern on the field looks fine except for the furrows that run vertically and form boxes. Almost always long straight rows from end to end.

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## Steel General

That's probably another image that needs to be made into a seamless time, before I use it again...thanks for the input.  :Smile:

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## Ascension

The field concept is pretty good as are the colors (maybe just a bit more yellow though) but the pattern is so small that it repeats way too much creating that boxey look.  The cleaned up tiling along the rocky coast is good now since I didn't see any tiling.  This frost does look better as it seems to have a bit of texture.  My favorite part of the whole map are the crenelations on the castle towers....how the heck did you do those?  Draw it big then shrink it down?  It appears, though, that you have some overlapping shadows there creating darker shadows around the towers as compared to the other castle parts.  At any rate, still looks pretty good.

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## Steel General

Thanks...

The fields are going to need a little more work before I'll be satisfied, I had to shrink the pattern down a lot, otherwise the plants were HUGE! I'll probably drop them out of this map.

Have to admit I "cheated" on the crenelations, they are images from the Dundjinni forums, so I cannot take credit for them. I just added a "toned down" texture to them.

I swapped out the frost texture than added a few more strokes with an airbrush set at around 30-40% opacity. I'm fairly happy with it now, though I'll probably tinker with it some more.

Shadows are always something I struggle with a bit, is it to much, not enough, to dark, to small, to big, etc. etc.

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## Morshwan

I have some remarks on your maps.
- First, we can see aliasing in the top-middle left of the map. It is not very important, but If you are perfectionist, it can be a point to improve. ;-)
- Second, your town. The town is built on the beach close to a river. Darn, if one day there is a storm, all the town may be destroyed (flood and tidal wave). In my opinion, some houses are too close from the river (explanation below).
- Last, there is something strange with your river. Usually, the river is confined in a channel, unfortunately it is not present in your map. Ok I cannot explain very well, but is it possible to surround your river with some yellow texture representing your channel?

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## Steel General

@Morshawn - Thanks for your comments.

- I see the 'aliasing' you're referring to, that shouldn't be a big deal to  fix, I had noticed it earlier and forgot about it. Thanks for pointing it out again. 

- Only part of the town/city is even finished there is much more to add. The part by the coast is only the docks, warehouses, etc. Which you are correct, would be subject to destruction from bad storms, etc. I really have only barely begun to add the houses and other structures.

- The river does have a 'channel' I beleive it just "washed out" when I was playing around with the terrain effects.

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## Steel General

OK, here's the latest update...

1) Removed the "vegetable patches" - it was experimental anyway  :Smile: 
2) Revamped a lot of the terrain - though its difficult to tell
3) Finally happy with the frost/ice/snow effect
4) Added a good chunk of the houses, etc. in the central portion of the city
   - This may still need some tweaking
   - The 'dirty gold' building is a temple to the Goddess of Trade/Merchants/etc.
5) Added a small triangular nobles keep
6) More roads, etc.
7) Added "dirt" among the houses etc.
 :Cool:  Added a central market area

As always any C&C is welcomed.

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## Ascension

That market area is lookin pretty cool except for that green sherbet colored tent being repeated 4 times...might wanna throw on some darker shades for the various ones but I'm sure you already plan on that.  Otherwise, keep on truckin.

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## RPMiller

Lots of great improvements! I love how the vegetation stops short of the "freeze zone". You have definitely thought through a lot of the small details. Well done!

The building arrangements/spacing bothers me for some reason. Perhaps it is the uniformity or grid like pattern not sure.

I definitely think you need to get some farm land in there though. Probably set to the East assuming an westerly wind so that the smell of the animals and other farm smells are blown away from the city proper. That population will definitely need some food to sustain itself.

I think you have dialed in all the previous comments and this is just about done. Excellent job!

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## Steel General

Thanks guys...

@Ascension - Yeah I see what you mean about the sherbert color. I'll definitely fix that.

@RPMiller - I was quite happy with how my last changes to the 'frost zone' came out. I see what your saying about the grid-like pattern/uniformity. I think some of that comes from so few streets. If I add more 'city blocks' like that (and in the future), I'll break them up some more. Agree with you on the farms too. I'll get them in there eventually.

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## bryguy

> That market area is lookin pretty cool except for that green sherbet colored tent being repeated 4 times...might wanna throw on some darker shades for the various ones but I'm sure you already plan on that.  Otherwise, keep on truckin.


actually 7 times (if your reffering to the one i think you are), 5 times in the... market? and 2 times on the outskirts

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## Steel General

OK, here's a relatively minor update to this beastie...

1) Got rid of the 'sherbert colored' market stalls.
2) Added farm fields on the eastern side of the city - I'm not quite sure about these yet, I've used the texture before but for some reason it doesn't seem 'quite right'.
3) Expanded "inner-city" - I like this part better than the last chunk that I did. It seem more realistic... probably due to the increased number of roads, and smaller gaps between the buildings. I may redo the other portion if I get motivated.

That's about it...

Anyone have a good texture/pattern for a graveyard? Or even a process they use to create something close. I think this city needs one on the western side somewhere.

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## Ascension

Nothing really seems too off to me so good job.  As far as using patterns, I do 3 things to eliminate the repetitions:  1) change the opacity or blending mode, 2) erase some bits, and 3) clouds or color overlays.  This last bit might be useful here to break up some of that yellow, but that's just me, I still like what ya goin on here.  Keep on keepin on.

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## Midgardsormr

Is there a reason no one builds on the western side of the big road on the west side of the city?  It seems a little odd to me to have such tightly-packed blocks on one side of the road and zero buildings on the other, unless there's some kind of taboo or a royal edict declaring everything to the west of that boundary to be the King's lands.

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## Steel General

Nope, no reason, just haven't got to that part yet.  :Smile:

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## delgondahntelius

Beautiful map SG, nice building placement and proportion, the colors are looking good. Well done..... 

That being said, there is one thing that bugs me about the map. All the buildings have horizontal lines running across them... the buildings that form up square to the map look fine, but the the buildings built at angles still have horizontal lines... it just pops out at me and looks a bit weird. Also in some of the larger southern buildings it seems that a pattern repeats forming squares, looking somewhat like a grid.... I was thinking you might have used a layer overlay at low opacity over the building layer.. or something ... I dunno, but that is the only thing that bugs me about it... Other than that... fantastic  :Very Happy:

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## Jkaen

Looks nice, the only comment is the fields seem to brigth for the rest of the map and draw focus, I would try darkening them somehow and see how that looks

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## Steel General

@Delgon... - Thanks... Yeah I need to fix the texture I used, it's not seamless, hopefully that strange patterning will go away once I do that.

@Jkaen - Thanks... Another thing I need to address, I just added the fields the other day and thought they looked 'off', I'll tinker with the coloring eventually.

This is something I mess around with at work, when I'm in between projects. That's why its taking so long to finish.

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## delgondahntelius

SG ... are you using PS? ..... there are add ons out there that you can use to make a tile seamless... and of course... you can always make a seamless pattern yourself... which is easy enough to do .... but I won't go into it unless you want to know ... for PS of course... 

I think the filter forge add-on can make tiles seamless... you may want to check that one out.  :Very Happy:

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## Steel General

> SG ... are you using PS? ..... there are add ons out there that you can use to make a tile seamless... and of course... you can always make a seamless pattern yourself... which is easy enough to do .... but I won't go into it unless you want to know ... for PS of course... 
> 
> I think the filter forge add-on can make tiles seamless... you may want to check that one out.


I am using PS so I'll definitely check that one out, thanks. I have one at home that I downloaded and use, just don't have it in the office....and here's another small update.

1) Added some more houses, small buildings, etc.
2) Adjusted the farm fields - I think it blends in much better now
3) Added a couple of more noble/merchant 'estates'
4) Began adding the cemetary (the "mutated leafy Looking thing")

Think that's about it.

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## Ascension

The fields look much better, good job.  The giant amoeba has those paths that look like there is either a bevel applied to em or a drop shadow with light coming from the top right...might wanna remove that so it will look flatter.  But we're at the point where we're splitting hairs so overall that's pretty good.

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## Steel General

> The fields look much better, good job.  The giant amoeba has those paths that look like there is either a bevel applied to em or a drop shadow with light coming from the top right...might wanna remove that so it will look flatter.  But we're at the point where we're splitting hairs so overall that's pretty good.


Actually I agree with you about the paths/roads, they actually have both. I was playing around with it earlier, just hadn't made up my mind about what to do with it. I think I may remove them all together.

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## ravells

I think this looks terrific, SG. I like the way you've put the individual buildings into blocks. It looks very convincing.

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## Steel General

OK here's the latest update, nothing major but still some progress... 

1) Started "fleshing out" the cemetary a bit, adding grave markers, tombs, etc.

2) Added another noble/wealthy merchant compound - struggling with this a bit, hard to come up with 'unique' ones each time without going overboard.

3) The circular building east of the nobles 'ward' is an arena where various combat related events are held.

4) Added some more houses/small buildings, etc.


I think I may put this one "on the shelf" for a bit, starting to get stagnated and I would rather wait and finish it when my creative juices are flowing better for it. But I will definitely get back to it.

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## RPMiller

Couple thoughts.

 If the entire city is able to go to the arena, I think it is going to have to be much larger. If the culture doesn't have any superstitions or religious anxieties about the dead than your placement is ok, but if they do, would people really live that close to the dead (or potentially undead  :Shocked:  ) I wouldn't worry to much about the estates. If you think about it, only so much wealth can flow into a given city, and probably only 1% of the population will really hold the largest portion of that and it will trickle and move about through the middle class and finally to the poor. So the question becomes just how much wealth is there and who are they? I would imagine that there aren't that many nobles in a city of this size.

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## Towser

I have been enjoying watching this map come into what it is now, and I must say, its a beautiful map, and I love the style!  I can't wait to see it finished!

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## Steel General

@Towser - Thanks, not sure if I'll ever get back to this one or not.

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## Turgenev

> @Towser - Thanks, not sure if I'll ever get back to this one or not.


What!? It would be such a waste to stop now. This map looks fantastic now and would look even better once it is finished. Besides, how can I rep you for it if you don't finish it.  :Wink:

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## Steel General

> What!? It would be such a waste to stop now. This map looks fantastic now and would look even better once it is finished. Besides, how can I rep you for it if you don't finish it.


We'll see...no promises though, I'm buried neck-ddep in this month's challenge at the moment. Maybe after that.

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## Steel General

OK, since there seems to be some interest in my finishing this, I've dragged it out of mothballs. Updates will be infrequent as it's on my work PC and can only work on it during down/slow times.

Here is a very minor update... added a few more noble estates.

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## Hoel

If you use two layers for the roofs, you can makse hosues that have multiple roofs without the bevel making them misshapen.
I did it in my carlsborg map by just copying the original layer and then deleting the lower roofs from the new layer.

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## Steel General

@Hoel - Thanks for the tip. I do something like that for the noble estates. The remaining houses, etc. have a really bad pattern overlay on them, one I need to replace - hopefully that will fix some of those issues.

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## Towser

I am really glad you are working on this map again.  Its the first thread I ever read on here and I like it a lot!

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