# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  Val Nevan

## Blaidd Drwg

So, after a lot of failures, I'm finally on my way to producing something decent again. At least, that's the plan; I still have loads of opportunities to screw this up when my patience start to run out  :Wink:

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## atpollard

Starting from both ends like that, how do you avoid smudging earlier work as you add lines?
(at least that was the bane of my existance when I was doing pencil on vellum drafting)

PS. Nice detail so far.

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## atpollard

> So, after a lot of failures ...


If you count "Máisandras City Map" among your 'failures', then your standards are WAY too high.  :Wink:

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## Blaidd Drwg

No, I do not consider Máisandras a failure  :Razz: 
But I've wanted to do an isometric* map for quite some time and every attempt so far was a complete disaster. Usually because I want to get to the fun parts of drawing and skip planning and sketching things out first. I never posted those, of course  :Wink: 




> Starting from both ends like that, how do you avoid smudging earlier work as you add lines?


Not really. I drew the castle in the top left corner first as a sort of scale reference for myself and only a very light general layout of the city plan in pencil. Now I'm working from the bottom up because of overlapping buildings. The ink doesn't smudge at all and the pencil lines I erase immediately once I've inked the building. I'm constantly switching between pencilling a few buildings, inking them, then erasing.

What I'm more worried about is scale, projection and drawing vertical lines vertical.  

* I say isometric, but that's not really what this is. I don't what to call it ...

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## Hai-Etlik

> * I say isometric, but that's not really what this is. I don't what top call it ...


It looks like an Oblique projection to me.

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## Seraphine_Harmonium

> * I say isometric, but that's not really what this is. I don't what top call it ...


You could maybe call it "aerial" or "bird's eye"  view

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## Blaidd Drwg

Ah thanks, yes. Oblique is probably what this is  :Very Happy: 

Also: here's a small update. Progress is very slow.
And there's a mistake in it, too: the building on the square in the south-west corner. That's more like an isometric projection where everything else is oblique. It suddenly looks all wrong  :Razz:

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## vorropohaiah

that's looking very promising indeed. I've wanted to make a similar map for ages, but just cant bring myself to; it always seems as though you need too much planning to complete. keep up the good work

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## Veldehar

Out of my league! No way I'd try it with my patience of a cross-eyed cat on speed, and that lack of talent thing, heh heh. However, this looks like a good one to keep an eye on. Looks great to me.

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## Jaxilon

Yes, this looks really promising.

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## Larb

> that's looking very promising indeed. I've wanted to make a similar map for ages, but just cant bring myself to; it always seems as though you need too much planning to complete. keep up the good work


Lots of patience. And a grid to serve as guidelines really helps too I find, (something that is easier to implement and later remove digitally).

I am looking forward to seeing it once a big section of buildings is done!

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## Blaidd Drwg

Thanks, peeps ^^

It is indeed mostly a matter of planning and patience and much less of having drawing skills.
I've thought of using a grid, but since the buildings' orientations are always different I thought it wouldn't really pay off. Also: I'm not terribly good at photoshopping and I'm not really sure how to get rid of the grid. And the paper I'm using is quite good, and I realy love drawing on it  :Smile: 

Here's another update. Small in terms of square inches covered, but large in terms of time spent/wasted  :Razz: 
I now regret drawing the castle first. It was supposed to become the 'center piece' of the city, so to speak, but I'm afraid it will look very shabby when compared to what I imagine to be the wizards' school ... Nuts  :Razz: 



EDIT:
the city is situated on a hill, with the castle at the top on a steep incline. The rest of the city is supposed to gently slope upwards towards the steep part with the castle. I'm not sure how to draw that, so any advice you good people could give me, would be very welcome indeed!

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## Seraphine_Harmonium

Some programs have grids that you can turn on and off.  In GIMP for instance, you can just go to "View>Show Grid" and it pops right up.  Then you just repeat that to turn it off.  I expect that Photoshop has something similar.  Djekspek has also pointed out that you can download Isometric grids too, and pointed to this one

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## Larb

Besides a bit of shading on the right side of the hill, you could draw the buildings closest to the castle cutting in to it a little. That should give the appearance of an incline. Also if the city slopes up, everything is going to be slightly stepped in spots.

I just quickly drew an example of what I meant. Apologies for defiling your map but you'll see what I mean!

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## Blaidd Drwg

> Some programs have grids that you can turn on and off.  In GIMP for instance, you can just go to "View>Show Grid" and it pops right up.  Then you just repeat that to turn it off.  I expect that Photoshop has something similar.  Djekspek has also pointed out that you can download Isometric grids too, and pointed to this one


Oh, I know  :Smile:  The trouble is, I'm doing this on real, old-fashioned paper. I've tried drawing something like this with photoshop, but it's not the same. Even with decent brush settings, I miss the feel of real paper  :Smile: 
Maybe I could try using tracing paper with a grid underneath, or beter yet: a lightbox. Thanks for the link! I'm sure it'll be useful then :Very Happy: 




> I just quickly drew an example of what I meant. Apologies for defiling your map but you'll see what I mean!


Haha! Well, I still have the original  :Wink: 
But that's great advice! Thank you  :Very Happy:

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## Seraphine_Harmonium

Then the best I can say would be maybe get a transparent right angle tool if you don't have one already.  It wouldn't be a full grid, but you could make sure each angle was right, and be able to see through to the image underneath.

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## Blaidd Drwg

You mean like one of these?  :Wink: 
It works, but I think I've misjudged the scale. Most buildings are just 3-5 millimeters high and that makes it very easy to screw up. I just hope that all the little mistakes won't stand out so much when it's done  :Smile:

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## Lyandra

This is going to look awesome when you finish it  :Smile:  Already it looks spectacular. Keep going!  :Wink:

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## arsheesh

I agree.  Here's a bit of rep in advance to encourage you to finish it.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Blaidd Drwg

@Lyandra: Thanks  :Smile: 
@Arsheesh: also thanks. Not that I need the rep to motivate me, but it's a nice bonus!  :Wink:  

I've somehow managed to mess up the streets on the right side of the town, but I hope it will look a bit more 'logical' when I connect them to the streets coming from the north.

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## Larb

It's really starting to come alive now that you have a big patch of buildings finished!

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## Seraphine_Harmonium

> It works, but I think I've misjudged the scale. Most buildings are just 3-5 millimeters high and that makes it very easy to screw up. I just hope that all the little mistakes won't stand out so much when it's done


They don't even stand out now.  I can't find anything that is glaring. Maybe one wavy roof, but anything else I could see being intentional.

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## Lyandra

This is looking better and better. The streets don't look messed up to me.

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## Blaidd Drwg

> They don't even stand out now.  I can't find anything that is glaring. Maybe one wavy roof, but anything else I could see being intentional.


I agree, now that I'm used to it. I was hoping it would work that way, and it does, as long as you don't take a good hard look at each individual building  :Smile: 

Latest update. I did a border first. Maybe not the wisest decision, but I needed to do something different fort a while.
And then there's the cathedral ... I think I've overdone it. It was meant to be big, but not Albert Speer big. I got so hung up on drawing the thing (octagonal groundplan in isometric projection, aaaargh), that I lost sight of the bigger picture. I think I'm just going on with it and if I still feel it's to fracking huge when the pen drawing is done, I will scale it down in photoshop before I start colouring.

Thanks for the kind words, motivational rep and advice so far! You've been a great help  :Very Happy:

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## Lukc

Wow! Looking very good indeed!

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## Schwarzkreuz

Wow, one of those birdseye city maps. I am impressed by the patiences needed to do such a map.

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## vorropohaiah

i like the border - looks tedious though!

EDIT: what size is the paper? looks too big to be A4 but not big enough for A3

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## Blaidd Drwg

@Schwarzkreuz: it is indeed mostly a matter of patience, yes  :Razz: 
@Vorropohaiah: the border was VERY tedious. I'm glad it's over with. The drawing is on A3.  :Smile:

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## Chashio

Fabulous map! Your tiny little people make me smile. Though that one by the bottom gate, on a horse? The horse looks like it's missing its head.

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## Jaxilon

This is wayyyy cool. I would love to do a map like this but I don't think I have the patience for it. I've been trying to psych myself up for something like this. Color me impressed.

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## Redrobes

Its always impressive when someone has the confidence to put in so much work into a border before the main map is finished. Its like theres zero chance of this being screwed up so what the hell. If this were me, I would do it in sections and matte it all together at the end cos I would screw something up in a transitional stage. Very fine progress.

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## dangerdog15

I've always enjoyed this style and you haven't disappointed. It looks great!

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## Blaidd Drwg

Finally, FINALLY! Most of the city is done. All the larger blocks are finished. I just need to do the rest of the city walls, a graveyard and the rock that the castle is built on (with a few houses here and there).
I'm not sure if I will do the writing by hand or in photoshop. It's so easy to mess up by hand, but I wonder if it will have a hand-made look if I do it digitally. Maybe I can apply some effects to make it work, but that's something I'll need to research a bit first.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the way it looks so far. My biggest problem with it is that the city still looks flat. I tried use the advice I've been given, but I still forgot from time to time. And I should have made some buildings overlap at the back of the city, but was to concerned that the streets wouldn't be visible enough. I hope I can apply some shading to correct it a bit after scanning. We'll see  :Smile:

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## Larb

Looking good! I recently saw a historic map of Bern in this style too so I'm especially liking it today.

You could always do the labels by hand on a separate piece of paper, scan them in and then combine them in Photoshop by just cutting them out and putting them on a layer called labels before setting it to multiply (Lazyply in this case) or something.

No risk of ruining it then.

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## Blaidd Drwg

> You could always do the labels by hand on a separate piece of paper, scan them in and then combine them in Photoshop by just cutting them out and putting them on a layer called labels before setting it to multiply (Lazyply in this case) or something.


Good idea, I'll try that if doing it digitally doesn't pay of. I really hate 'calligraphy' so that's really a last option for me  :Wink: 

Latest update: I scanned the paper and have started colouring. It's fun again  :Razz:

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## Lyandra

This is starting to look so awesome! Can't wait to see the final map!  :Very Happy:

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## maxsdaddy

Really nice work. Why not stick with your own handwriting? It seems legible enough.

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## Seraphine_Harmonium

Looking real cool with the parchment and painted roofs!

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## Lukc

Clapping clapping!

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## Freodin

This ís without question one of the most spectacular and amazing maps I have ever seen here!

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## vorropohaiah

lovely! its amazing how something so simple as the painted roofs can make such a difference - any more stuff like that still to be added?

quick question though - the edges seem to be more frayed or spattered on the new version than the original - did you change anything or is it just more etail form the scan?

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## Sapiento

Looks fantastic!

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## arsheesh

This looks like a "Cartographer's Choice" map in the making if ever I saw one!

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Schwarzkreuz

This is already one of my favorites! Buildings are mercyless and show every wrong turn of the pen or wrong perspective directly to the viewer. But I am in awe about how well it looks on your map. I cant see much errors at all.

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## Larb

It has turned out fantastic, the hilltop castle especially (I was wondering how you would integrate it). I get a slightly German vibe from the town itself but I don't know if that is intentional or not. That probably helps for me though because German castles are my favourite and are the dominant aesthetic in my own little world.

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## rdanhenry

That's looking pretty darned awesome.

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## Blaidd Drwg

Thanks, everyone  :Smile: 




> Really nice work. Why not stick with your own handwriting? It seems legible enough.


Legible, yes. Pretty? Nnnnot so much. But I found some font I really like on my old laptop. I have no idea where I got it, though.




> This is already one of my favorites! Buildings are mercyless and show every wrong turn of the pen or wrong perspective directly to the viewer. But I am in awe about how well it looks on your map. I cant see much errors at all.


 Well, I can see plenty  :Razz:  But I guess they don't stand out much if you don't look at it too closely. Mostly it's a matter of accidentally using a isometric-ish perspective instead of a oblique one (See the houses on either side of the street near the eastern gate for an example of that :Razz: ). I get so caught up in the details, sometimes, that I forget to look at how it fits in with the rest.




> I get a slightly German vibe from the town itself but I don't know if that is intentional or not. That probably helps for me though because German castles are my favourite and are the dominant aesthetic in my own little world.


It's semi-intentional?  :Razz:  I started out with more of a Flemish look in mind, but some of the buildings (mostly those with the long side facing the street and the roofs sloping towards it) reminded me of Germany as well, and I liked that so much I drew more of them. I've been to Freiburg in the Black Forest a couple of times -- it's such a lovely city! <3

Now, here's a new update.
Next up:

-a bit of drawing. I want to add some fields and farms to the south and east. I'll draw them by hand again, scan them and copy-paste them in.
-I want to colour the surrounding fields in the same way I did the hill and fields in the city, but have them fade out towards the edge of the paper. Maybe I'll use a layer mask for that.
-I'm trying to draw three simple coats of arms to put in the top right corner. One for the city itself, one for the kingdom that Val Nevan is the capital of, and one for the current ruler.
The lettering is just a bit of a test to see how it looks. I love the font, but it looks too clean and digitally compared to the rest of the drawing. Not sure how to fix that.

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## Larb

I like the way the colour has come out, It's not too dominating. This is making me really want to try a map in this style but I really should make something for the lite challenge instead!

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## Lyandra

So beautiful! The colours add so much to this already gorgeous map!  :Smile: 




> This is making me really want to try a map in this style but I really should make something for the lite challenge instead!


@Larb: You really should participate in this one! I was wondering why you haven't posted something already. Your isometric maps are so awesome!  :Wink:

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## Seraphine_Harmonium

> @Larb: You really should participate in this one! I was wondering why you haven't posted something already. Your isometric maps are so awesome!


I agree.  Your Isometrics are awesome Larb.  But if you entered one, I wouldn't stand a chance...:-(

But if you wanted, I'm sure you could combine elements of this style with a more isometric perspective.  Hand drawn, colored similarly, just at a different angle.

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## cereth

Amazing stuff. This is very nice indeed!

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## Veldehar

Color me impressed, goes down quickly as one of my favorite city maps.

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## Blaidd Drwg

Done! It's all done! Thanks the gods ...

In the end, I decided not to colour the surroundings. It drew away too much attention from the city itself. I redid the writing by printing out the map and tracing it on tracing paper which I then scanned and copy-pasted back in. It's not very clean, but it helps the hand-madeness of the map.
I'm going to let this cool off for a couple of days so I can take a fresh look at it next weekend. If I don't change anything, I'll post some more information about the city.

Thanks @ everyone for the comments and advice. You're awesome ^^

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## Larb

Awesome stuff! I am definitely going to have to try something in this sort of style.

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## Blaidd Drwg

> Awesome stuff! I am definitely going to have to try something in this sort of style.


Please do!

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## vorropohaiah

great stuff!

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## Seraphine_Harmonium

Looks great!

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## arsheesh

Wow, just wow!  

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Blaidd Drwg

Thanks for all the kind words here and on my corner of deviant art.
I've made one final, and very small update. I've added just a bit of colouring to the trees, hedges and roofs outside the city. Now it's done and I'm not touching it again.  :Smile:

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## vorropohaiah

id stick this in finished maps so we can rate it  :Wink:

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## arsheesh

Yes.  I've already repped you once, but this is so good it deserves another go around!

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## jtougas

Fantastic !! as a big fan of city and town maps (and the creator of some pretty interesting failures..  :Wink:  ) I am always impressed when I see a really good one. Repped !!

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## Blaidd Drwg

> id stick this in finished maps so we can rate it


LOL. Done  :Razz:

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