# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Writing, Stories, Linguistics, Toponymy and other wordy stuff ! >  Felmyr Place Names (WIP)

## Weery

Hi all,

Maybe this is an unusual step but I thought I'd create a WIP thread explaining some of my thought processes in developing the place names for my world Felmyr, where the city I am currently mapping (Grimmsmouth) is located. 

I know that this sort of thing has the potential to become very wordy so I'll try to keep focussed and brief (where possible) and begin with only a high level explanation of the continent names.

Please, this is only a WIP thread so I'm as much threshing out ideas and thought processes as anything else, so if you find it interesting I'm delighted. But if it doesn't go anywhere interesting then at least we'll have gone there together  :Smile: 


*World Name  

Felmyr*

Honestly, I've had this name for years now and I'm still not 100% on it. I'm a great believer that in fiction place names need to communicate something to the viewer/reader beyond just being the noun for that place. *Felmyr* needs to tell people what kind of world it is and I don't think it does what I want it to.

I think it conjures up Arthurian images, Merlin and the sort. That's not what I want though. I want something that reeks of fantasy but has a distinct whiff of nineteenth century reality, too. Very much a WIP. But for now *Femlyr's* what I got.


*Continents

HelgarrdRushmoreAluineSulaamWu
*

There are a couple more but the above are almost finished and decided upon. I believe they each communicate something to the reader (perhaps to English speakers is what I really mean) that explains something integral to that place before you really learn anything about them.

I'll outline briefly.

*Helgarrd* is a mountainous, snowy and harsh continent to the north. Pretty obvious right?

*Rushmore* is a large newfoundland across the *Behemoth Sea*, recently free of the shackles of colonisation. Obvious again surely?

*Aluine* is, I feel the most difficult to extract anything from for Western people without an explanation of context. It's the bastion of the imperial civilisations, at the fore of industrial development. It's the location of *Midleset* (the country where *Grimmsmouth* sits) and is my proxy for Europe. Again, it's what I got.

*Sulaam* is a sub-equatorial continent where civilisations first bloomed and thrived. Hot and deserty and harsh.

*Wu*, the lands to the east (unless you live anywhere other than Aluine of course!). Probably clear what I'm going for here.


So that's all broad strokes stuff. Settled(ish) in my head but still very much part of an overall place names WIP. I think it provides a context to allow readers instantly have some insight into the character of the area. These lands diversify from Earth by having different races, creatures, beliefs, technologies etc. but it is all hopefully in a context that the viewer can relate to quickly.

I hope to post more on this (with some visual aides) to explain how I approach naming locations and features on my maps and beyond. I intend on drilling down into some details  (such as street names) that appear on my WIP *Grimmsmouth* map.

Thanks for sticking with this post. I aimed for brevity. I missed.

Weery.

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## Weery

And here's the world map outline. It does not correspond exactly to what the final version will be but it is generally correct.

Attachment 107098

I haven't indicated the mountain ranges on this map but I came up with it by beginning with a Pangaea type landmass which I moved around and crashed about. So what I'm saying is that the mountain ranges are in there as a result of imaginary tectonics  :Smile: 

You can see that there are four remaining landmasses. I haven't named these yet though the one to the east of Wu has a working title of Aro Hai.

Thanks for reading  :Smile:

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## Larb

I definitely know how you feel regarding the world name. For my main fictional world, after years I've still not managed to come up with one and I really hate the placeholder I have been using. I think in the end I will go with something drawn from one of my constructed languages.

What I am wondering about is whether the linguistic layout of your world is supposed to be so very analogous to our own or not (it could be done subconsciously). For example, you have a northern region with a norse-type name, a central one with a frankish-type name, an eastern one with an east-asian type name, and a south-easterly one with an arabic sounding name. And then to the west across the sea, Rushmore conjures up images of the US.

If this is intentional, that is fine - it works. Expect the comparisons though, (and also perhaps comments on the absence of an african continent equivalent proper.) If it's not intentional, it might be worth giving it all another pass.

For example, in my main fictional world, I added a vague east asian sounding land to the east. Then realised what I was doing so just cut the whole thing entirely. But then I didn't intend to go for a world analogous to our own.

Also it's nice to see this subforum getting a little more love.

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## Weery

Hi Larb, thanks so much for commenting  :Smile: 




> I definitely know how you feel regarding the world name. For my main fictional world, after years I've still not managed to come up with one and I really hate the placeholder I have been using. I think in the end I will go with something drawn from one of my constructed languages.


This is where I'm having the most difficulty, too. I've tried thinking of a proxy word for Earth but I'm not sure I can do it. It's hard to find an alternative that isn't either too fantasty or too sci-fi-esque! Your idea to use one of your con-lang words might be the best method.

The analogous naming of locations is very intentional in my own world, yes. I'm hoping it quickly gives a broad indication of the various regions (along the lines of climate, tech level etc.). My hope is that this grounds the viewer in something they can relate to instantly.

Having said that, the various regions are not analogous to their earth counter parts in anything other than a general sense. For example, in Game of Thrones, Westeros is probably analogous to medieval England and the War of the Roses? But you would never equate the two as there are things like dragons and skin changers and wyldfire etc. But it certainly helps ground (Western) viewers quite quickly. I have the same intention here. I will have to take care to avoid stereotype and hints of racism, that's true.




> Expect the comparisons though, (and also perhaps comments on the absence of an african continent equivalent proper.)


The absence of a large Africa proxy is a fair point. As I played around with the tectonics I just broke up that land mass and shoved it into southern Sulaam and the eastern unnamed continent. But there is a much smaller landmass which equates to Africa. Colonisation has begun there, as well as the exportation of slaves to Rushmore largely. The race I have named (shanga which I derived from African tribes), they have only just begun to throw off their shackles in my world. I hope to examine how I've named the various races and creatures in my world at some point too but I'm very glad that you made that initial observation  :Smile: 

Thanks again Larb!

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## Weery

Continuing on with the discussion on how I approach place names I'm posting an old first draft of the north-east region of Aluine. This is where I begin to zoom in on regions but I'm using this example to explain how awful my original approach was and what I've learned from my mistakes.

Attachment 107142

This first draft (from many years ago) had several countries and city states. The biggest problem imo are the names. I named every location on this map in one sitting. And it shows.

Zero thought. Zero planning. Zero coherence. 

This is completely at odds with how I work now. The names on this map convey almost nothing. Even to me. And I created them! It's a total mess. There are literally only about 2/3 that I would consider using going forward.

What happened is that I sat there forcing my brain to come up with a bunch of different sounding names, probably moving through the alphabet ala Lloyd Christmas guessing Mary Swanson's surname  :Smile:  It's weak and meaningless.

I work much slower now and create a narrative for every street (at the very least) or an idea of what I want to communicate to the reader/viewer (at the very most). For example, the entire east coast of this old map is now one country. It's named Midleset and its where Grimmsmouth is. I think the name Midleset conveys something about the nature of that country without me even needing to explain a thing. And it very quickly becomes clear that it's an England proxy when you start to see Victorian type maps etc.

In my next post about this I'll include an updated sketch of this map demonstrating the evolution of the map and some of the place names I've kept. I'll also explain why.

Thanks again for reading  :Smile:

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## Azélor

How to name places?
I remembered this while reading your thread : https://i.imgur.com/t6pPVSy.jpg
Explanation: In a Europa Universalis 4 game, English Mexico, a former English colony, decided to invade Japanese Japan. 
Hence the great name of English Mexican Japan. Probably the worst name I've seen in the game so far. 

Yes, Westeros = War of the roses, using Irish geography. There are a few in dept analysis on Youtube about it. It goes really deep but as you said, dragons make us forget about it.




> The absence of a large Africa proxy is a fair point.


At least you included Atlantis.

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## Neyasha

It's very interesting to read about your naming process. I experienced something similar with some rashly decisions for place names - and then I stuck to them for years although I didn't really like them. I'm now in a process of re-naming a lot of places and yes, these things take a lot of time.

I'm always torn back and forth when it comes to similarities to regions of our world (especially when thinking of Westeros, where I hate and at the same time love the worldbuilding), but sure this helps a lot to give others a feeling for a country without explaining too much.
Now I'm very looking forward to get more information about your world and your process of developing place names!

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## Weery

> How to name places?
> I remembered this while reading your thread : https://i.imgur.com/t6pPVSy.jpg


Hi Azélor. This is hilarious, thanks for posting  :Very Happy: 

And I hope my inclusion of 'Atlantis' over Africa will get me off the hook for not including a continent of 1.2 billion people...

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## Weery

> It's very interesting to read about your naming process. I experienced something similar with some rashly decisions for place names - and then I stuck to them for years although I didn't really like them. I'm now in a process of re-naming a lot of places and yes, these things take a lot of time.


Thanks Neyasha. Yes, and I find taking my time tends to result in something that I still like when I go back to it.  




> I'm always torn back and forth when it comes to similarities to regions of our world (especially when thinking of Westeros, where I hate and at the same time love the worldbuilding), but sure this helps a lot to give others a feeling for a country without explaining too much.


I know what you mean. I guess I don't want to be so direct as saying _'this is Midleset. You can just think of it as England.'_ Because that's not the case. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that by using certain place names and layouts on a map I'm trying to suggest something to the viewer that will allow them to make certain assumptions about the nature of the places in this world.

So you might subconsciously assume that Midleset is an industrialised nation because you're looking at a Victorian-esque map of a large city, right? Then from that, you begin to equate life in industrialising cities (as you know from world history) with life in Grimmsmouth. There's probably poverty and nobility, and a history of colonialism and imperialism. I think it's fair to say that these are aspects of our own 19th century industrialisation.

These are the type of high level markers I'm trying to put into the viewer's head. It's my cartography attempt at _'show, don't tell.'_ 

Yet here I am telling  :Smile: 

But that's only so people might tell _me_ if I'm hitting well wide of the mark here! Thanks again  :Smile:

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## Weery

*Country Names*

I don't have many country names yet but here are four at various stages:

*Midleset* - An imperialist nation at the forefront of scientific discovery and industrialisation.
*Clover* - Three island former colony of Midleset. It's name is a Midlesettian version of the native language name.
*Taggle (WIP)* - Former colony of Midleset. Located to the north-east and home to many treacherous mountains and jagged northern coastlines.
*Firlinsch* - Small mostly inland nation, heavily forested.

On the following map I've indicated Midleset in red:

Attachment 107181

You can see I've overlaid the national grid which I'm using to take map numbers from. I'm working on a tiny little part of SJ (where Grimmsmouth is located).

The name Midleset is derived from one of my most favourite novels about English life, _Middlemarch_ by George Eliot. Her novels conjure up so much of what I think about almost industrial England. I dropped the _march_ and a _d_ and simply added _set_ as in the ending of _Somerset_. I really like this name and I'm very set on it now  :Smile: 

I'll discuss the other country names I have next. Particularly *Clover* as I have some strong thoughts on how place names should work there (being Irish myself).

Weery  :Smile:

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## Weery

*Country Names (continued)*

The second country name I have is also very much settled on and raises the idea of non-English real-world languages in fictional worlds.

*Clover*

This is a former Midlesettian colony (not appearing on the map above). The name _Clover_ is directly derived as a result of the colonisation of the country many years ago. I will explain the case of place names in Ireland to demonstrate what I mean.

Ireland was colonised by Britain many years ago. At the time, Gaeilge (or Irish) was the predominant language. Over time, as English became the dominant language, place names became anglicised. For example, I'm from a county named Kildare. Kildare is an anglicised version of _Cill Dara_ which means _Church of the Oak_. Similarly, the county town is named Naas, an anglicised version of _Nás na Ríogh_ or the _Meeting Place of the Kings_.

The vast majority of Irish place names have gone through this process.

I've done the same with _Clover_. It's a group of islands some distance off the coast of Midleset whose name in Irish is interchangeably _Clocfuair_ or _Clocfhuiar_. It means both _Cold Stone_ and _Wild Stone_. 

Having gone through a change following colonisation it is now Clover. And that name in and of itself resonates with a perception of Ireland. Which is its proxy  :Smile: 

That's my thought process for coming up with this name. I mentioned that I have some strong thoughts on place names for Clover and I'll discuss this in my next post. It concerns the use of non-English languages in world building and I'll drag in some of my criticisms/observations on the work of Andrzej Sapkowski, one of my favourite fantasy authors.

Thanks again for reading  :Smile:

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## Weery

*Country Names (continued)*

I love the Witcher series (books and games). I think Sapkowski is one of the wittiest writers of dialogue, and he creates excellent characters that I really care about while I'm reading. They're so rich I can even get past the frequent lack of a plot  :Very Happy: 

But I really struggle to get past his Celtic/Nordic conlang  :Frown: 

I had never read fantasy that incorporated any other real world language (besides English of course). But I speak Irish and this is just one of the languages that Sapkowski incorporates into his writing. But it seems to me that he doesn't actually speak Irish (due to how he uses it) and it only serves to repeatedly take me out of the story. It just seems clumsy.

Perhaps for the majority of readers this doesn't happen because they don't speak Irish (or one of the other languages he's mashed into his world). Perhaps it creates a seamless impression of a Viking-like race? And isn't this real world grounding what I'm advocating in my above posts?

Well, yes. But I think it could be done better, that's all.

I have no problem playing around with English because it's my native language. Grimmsmouth city already has over 700 named elements and they all feel coherent to me because I understand English and (hopefully) know how to manipulate it to create the impression I want. I could maybe make a passable attempt at manipulating Irish, too.

But that's where I'd have to stop. If I messed around too much with Japanese it is very likely I'd only serve to knock the Japanese speakers out of my map over and over again. Fine if that's my intention, but it's not.

So in Clover I'll base the names off of Irish. But I'll hide them behind an anglicised version and won't go into what's happening in the background. I also have a WIP idea about how to represent this in an actual map so hopefully I'll go into that next.

Thanks for reading  :Smile:

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## aeshnidae

A very fascinating thread, Weery! I love learning about how other people come up with their world names. I often use Google Translate to pick names, or pieces of names. For instance, when creating my world, I randomly found out that Äerd is Luxembourgish for Earth. Until that point, I didn't consider that Luxembourg had its own language, but I thought it was a great choice! 

And then my DM handed over all DMing duties to me, so I got stuck with some of his place names (Äerd is now Ehalia, and our realm is Shannara, which means people ask me if I've read the Chronicles of Shannara, which I have not). I also shifted around the world map to make it fit with our game, including some extra mountains near Dulgany, which are required for one of the PC's backstories. I also made some minor modifications to world-building to accommodate the game. Here's what I've got now, so you can see the names:



This was my very first color map, so I will re-work it later, but for now I have it printed in large format for my D&D game. A few people have told me it reminds them of Westeros and Essos; I don't really think so, but Westeros is clearly based on England anyway so I'm not exactly robbing George R.R. Martin of his ideas.  :Smile:  The region relevant for my D&D game is also based on England, which is fine with me because so much high fantasy is based on Arthurian legends and such. I've also read a ton of English history from the Norman Conquest through Henry VIII, so it's familiar. However, I am looking forward to reading Tomi Adeyemi's _Children of Blood and Bone_, as it is high fantasy based on African culture and I've never read a fantasy book based on anything other than Western European and Arabian cultures. But first I have to finish _The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, the Power Behind Five English Thrones_.  :Smile:  

In terms of naming, in order to help my players feel that they know our game world, I do use names that are evocative of real world places. For instance, Duscany is akin to Italy at the start of the Renaissance, so I've tried to come up with names that sound Mediterranean. Kashgar is based on the Persian empire, so I went with names that sound like they wouldn't be out of place in the Middle East. 

I am not above zooming around Google Maps and cherry picking names of real places, or pieces of names that I mash together. And because I'm ethnically Hungarian (I'm first generation American), I also like to use Hungarian. It also has the benefit of being an unusual  language that very few people recognize, which makes it perfect for use as a Druidic or magical language in-game. (I can speak a little Hungarian and I'm actively learning more of it. But hey, my players don't realize that my Druid is saying "happy birthday, Grandma" or "I would like sparkling water, thank you very much."  :Very Happy: )

I'm looking forward to reading more about your naming methods, Weery!

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## Weery

Thanks so much Aeshnidae  :Smile: 

It sounds like you're using the same approach to me by using similar real world names to evoke an understanding of some basics in the viewer (or player in your own case). I think it's a real effective method if done well and with some subtlety. And when you have these assumptions in place you can then begin to break them down for your own ends.

I remember Robin Hobb doing this type of thing in her writing but for a map maker it might be something so simple as including an unexplained location to make the reader curious. For example, in my Grimmsmouth map I have indicated in a forest, a small location called a _nightmare clearing_ and provided no explanation. Not the biggest deal, but it still serves to break down the illusion I'm creating of a normal industrialising city.

I love your Ehalia map! I had to google Essos as the similarities didn't jump out at me. Maybe the south eastern corners are similar but little else I reckon. I'm delighted to learn of your recommendation of Tomi Adeyemi as well because I routinely try to read outside of my regular pattern and this seems like an ideal chance! I've enjoyed George Eliot, Tara Westover and Cormac McCarthy as a result of this approach. But I've also had to endure Virginia Woolf, Jeffrey Archer and Margaret Atwood  :Razz: 

Your use of Hungarian presents its own opportunity for naming as well. That's how I view my own closeness to Irish. Hopefully it will help make things more authentic, even if it is only to say Happy Birthday  :Very Happy: 

Thanks again for commenting and reading!

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## aeshnidae

> I remember Robin Hobb doing this type of thing in her writing but for a map maker it might be something so simple as including an unexplained location to make the reader curious. For example, in my Grimmsmouth map I have indicated in a forest, a small location called a _nightmare clearing_ and provided no explanation. Not the biggest deal, but it still serves to break down the illusion I'm creating of a normal industrialising city.
> !


My players would run straight towards something called _nightmare clearing_.  :Laughing:  I very much like the concept of introducing something to pique the readers'/players' interest. Dragonlance (my cornerstone fantasy series) had Darken Wood. And in real life, as I drive towards my favorite beach town, I pass a place called Slaughter Beach. All of the other towns have benign names like Farmington, Jefferson, Riverview...and then there's Slaughter Beach. It always strikes me and I wondered about it for years. (Google educated me. It's either named after William Slaughter or it's the place of a massacre of the indigenous residents. No one is sure which option is correct.) I will definitely think about doing something, just a little thing, out of the ordinary when I make my next game map.

I'm very glad that you liked my Ehalia map and book recommendation. Here's to good reading! And for your next birthday: Boldog Születésnapot!

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## Azélor

The Witcher features many different contries and Irish sounding names are not that common in the universe. But while I played the 2 first games, I'm not vety familiar with setting, so I could be wrong. The universe felt diverse to me and more inspired from Germany/Eastern Europe.

To me English sounding names are somewhat exotic since it's not my native language. It's French but the funny thing is that many French towns names sounds odd to me.
Anyway, i did a map with English names, some are from old English like the title, Ondoerr, Meinland, Miskuun, and probably others but I can't differentiate them for modern English. https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...3&d=1425431662
Some names are also inspired by the horror theme (inspiration was Ravenloft).

More recently I started working on another horror inspired map. It's more like Lovecraft so you have a lot of England and Massachusetts sounding names. https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...9&d=1526055714

I used several settings for inspiration like my own previous maps (White Hill, Eagle earie...), Dark souls, and a greek Philosopher... Pliny: there is a meaning. And Luciferin is not a reference to Lucifer. 
And the roads makes a pentagram if you look closely. 


I have one chinese themed map: https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...2&d=1505272910
Some names are pretty poetic like one mountain range is named Emerald serpent but others are less so, like the one Soaked Wet province. Still very illustrative of the wet local climate.  
One province is named golden elephant, because they are rich like they could own a big elephant made of gold. 
Most names have a real meaning but some might be odd for chinese since they might invert the two syllables, otherwise the same syllables but in the wrong order might sound like nonsense. Like the car green instead of the green car. 
The west has Indian sounding names because my neighbour (Janantala Elubor) has what I think sounds Indian. 
The names of my neighbours have been sinized (to become chinese). And some border names have been deformed to show some sort of linguistic mix. 
The actual name of the dynasty is Kún. While the syllable Kun do exist in Chinese, my Kun meaning is different and the writing is unique. That character does not exist in Chinese, the one on the flag but is somewhat similar to the Song dynasty standard. 


I had a document with most of the name with their meaning. If I find it, I can post it here if you are interested. Or I can go on just by memory.

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## Weery

> My players would run straight towards something called _nightmare clearing_.  I very much like the concept of introducing something to pique the readers'/players' interest. Dragonlance (my cornerstone fantasy series) had Darken Wood. And in real life, as I drive towards my favorite beach town, I pass a place called Slaughter Beach. All of the other towns have benign names like Farmington, Jefferson, Riverview...and then there's Slaughter Beach.


There's definitely something that pulls you in to a place like Slaughter Beach or a nightmare clearing. Where I grew up there was an abandoned old house named _Grouse Lodge_ alone in a wild orchard down the fields. We were always sneaking down there. The name struck fear into me for years.

Until I learned that a grouse is actually a portly bird and not the terrifying monster I imagined it to be  :Very Happy:

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## Weery

Thanks for posting Azélor  :Smile: 




> The Witcher features many different contries and Irish sounding names are not that common in the universe. But while I played the 2 first games, I'm not vety familiar with setting, so I could be wrong. The universe felt diverse to me and more inspired from Germany/Eastern Europe.


There's a fair bit of Irish and Welsh mixed in with the Nordic. But I agree, the main stories borrow mostly mainland European nations.




> ...the funny thing is that many French towns names sounds odd to me.


I'm very curious as to why this is. Why do think French names sound odd to you?




> More recently I started working on another horror inspired map. It's more like Lovecraft so you have a lot of England and Massachusetts sounding names. https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...9&d=1526055714


I like Lovecraft so I'll definitely keep an eye on where this map leads...





> I have one chinese themed map: https://www.cartographersguild.com/a...2&d=1505272910


Just wow! This is a fantastic map. I especially love the clouds and depth they bring. Same with the rivers. And the colours. Actually everything  :Very Happy: 

But as this is a naming thread, I also really like your approach to naming, where you take into account your neighbours place names makes sense to me and could serve to throw up a new sort of conlang? Should that be hyphenated? I don't k-now.

I'd be interested in the doc if you had it as I'm always keen to learn from/plagiarise other peoples work and experiences  :Smile: 

Thanks again.

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## Azélor

> I'm very curious as to why this is. Why do think French names sound odd to you?


Condom, diffidently 
. but I don't really have good examples right now, It's more a feeling. 

Ok maybe not France but Haiti (a former colonial possession of France)  has very strange names if you look on Google map assuming you have some  knowledge of French. I assume but could be wrong, that when the slave  got their freedom, they did not really speak the language but named  towns with French names without knowing the meaning of the words used.  Examples: Cabaret, Cul de Sac (dead end) , Pont Janvier (bridge built in  january?), Bonnet, Risque but Savane Zombi is probably the best one I  could find in a quick search.

I speak French but I'm from Québec. It must be a cultural thing. French only emerged as the dominant language of France recently. During the Revolution, half the French did not speak French well or not at all. They spoke regional languages that are not all ineligible from one to another. France is an older country with many different cultural influences. 

Here I'd say that it is less diverse maybe. We have a lot of names based on Saints like St Louis in the US or St Lawrence/St-Laurent, French historical characters: Laval, Chomedey, or based on native American languages. Very few people speak these languages but they are everywhere so these names don't sound odd to me at all: Quebec, Canada, Ottawa, Saskatoon, Ontario, Manhattan, Massachusetts are just a few examples.

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## aeshnidae

> There's definitely something that pulls you in to a place like Slaughter Beach or a nightmare clearing. Where I grew up there was an abandoned old house named _Grouse Lodge_ alone in a wild orchard down the fields. We were always sneaking down there. The name struck fear into me for years.
> 
> Until I learned that a grouse is actually a portly bird and not the terrifying monster I imagined it to be


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  Well, birds did used to be terrifying flying dinosaurs. 




> Here I'd say that it is less diverse maybe. We have a lot of names based on Saints like St Louis in the US or St Lawrence/St-Laurent, French historical characters: Laval, Chomedey, or based on native American languages. Very few people speak these languages but they are everywhere so these names don't sound odd to me at all: Quebec, Canada, Ottawa, Saskatoon, Ontario, Manhattan, Massachusetts are just a few examples.


Chesapeake, Susquehanna, Chincoteague, Anacostia, Patapsco...you're right, Azélor, there are so many places with Native American names, and I'm so used to them that they don't sound odd. 

BTW, Azélor, your heraldry is gorgeous! And the names on your Leohtwald map do give me a feel for the place.

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## Neyasha

I love the history behind the name of Clover. Such details give a fantasy world a very realistic feeling and some kind of depth.

It's also very interesting to read all your thoughts and inputs to the subject of naming places. 
As German is my mother-tongue I have a lot of "germanized" names in my fantasy world and often I'm really struggling with it. One reason may be, that most fantasy worlds are originally in English and when they are translated to German, the names often sound odd, so it's very rare to find fictional, but realistic sounding German names. Mostly because they sound just like modern names without any history or influence from other languages behind it.
I think the German version of the Lord of the Rings is one of the rare cases, where the translation of place names works really well - while the translation of The Song of Ice and Fire is some kind of disaster (at least for me) and I just stick to the english original. This also shows, that names are really important, when it comes to giving your countries/your world a certain feeling.

And yes, Midleset is a very good name to transport a Victorian-esque feeling.

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## aeshnidae

Weery, you said that Grimmsmouth city has over 700 coherently named elements. Would you share some of those and your thinking behind them?

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## aeshnidae

> It's also very interesting to read all your thoughts and inputs to the subject of naming places. 
> As German is my mother-tongue I have a lot of "germanized" names in my fantasy world and often I'm really struggling with it. One reason may be, that most fantasy worlds are originally in English and when they are translated to German, the names often sound odd, so it's very rare to find fictional, but realistic sounding German names. Mostly because they sound just like modern names without any history or influence from other languages behind it.
> I think the German version of the Lord of the Rings is one of the rare cases, where the translation of place names works really well - while the translation of The Song of Ice and Fire is some kind of disaster (at least for me) and I just stick to the english original. This also shows, that names are really important, when it comes to giving your countries/your world a certain feeling.


That's really interesting, Neyasha, I had not considered the challenges of translating story-relevant names into other languages (likely because when it comes to pop culture, I have Anglo-American privilege and usually don't have to think about it). I'm surprised that English-to-German translation suffers from this problem, though, since English is a Germanic language, although I suppose by now we've incorporated a lot of Romance/Latin words.

This thread motivated me to do an Amazon search for books about the etymology of conlang. I might check out _Hobbit Place-Names_  and _The Conlanger's Lexipedia_.

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## Azélor

> Well, birds did used to be terrifying flying dinosaurs. 
> 
> 
> 
> Chesapeake, Susquehanna, Chincoteague, Anacostia, Patapsco...you're right, Azélor, there are so many places with Native American names, and I'm so used to them that they don't sound odd. 
> 
> BTW, Azélor, your heraldry is gorgeous! And the names on your Leohtwald map do give me a feel for the place.


Thanks! Now I'm considering redoing the map. Having the names and geographic elements already placed will save me a ton of decision making. 




> I'd be interested in the doc if you had it as I'm always keen to learn from/plagiarise other peoples work and experiences


I really can't find it. It might have been deleted or I just can't find it for some reason. I also have names written on a sheet but I don't know where it is. 




> translation of The Song of Ice and Fire is some kind of disaster


It is a disaster in French too.

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## Weery

> I love the history behind the name of Clover. Such details give a fantasy world a very realistic feeling and some kind of depth... And yes, Midleset is a very good name to transport a Victorian-esque feeling.


Thank you so much Neyasha  :Smile:  Really good for me to get this kind of feedback




> As German is my mother-tongue I have a lot of "germanized" names in my fantasy world and often I'm really struggling with it. One reason may be, that most fantasy worlds are originally in English and when they are translated to German, the names often sound odd, so it's very rare to find fictional, but realistic sounding German names. Mostly because they sound just like modern names without any history or influence from other languages behind it.


Like Aeshnidae, I'm surprised English to German has this problem! And as both you and Azélor have said, when creating fictional place names in your own native languages they often sound odd. I'm really curious as to why this might be. But I'm in a difficult position to assess it myself. I also suffer form Anlgo-American privilege and I'm not a native Irish speaker.




> This thread motivated me to do an Amazon search for books about the etymology of conlang. I might check out _Hobbit Place-Names_  and _The Conlanger's Lexipedia_.


I think I'd like to know more about conlanging (I currently know so little that I wouldn't even attempt it) but it sounds like a rabbit hole that you could just keep going down for ages  :Very Happy:  But that book does look interesting...




> I really can't find it. It might have been deleted or I just can't find it for some reason. I also have names written on a sheet but I don't know where it is.


No worries Azélor but thanks for having a look. I'm just interested to learn from others' processes  :Smile: 




> Weery, you said that Grimmsmouth city has over 700 coherently named elements. Would you share some of those and your thinking behind them?


I hope to post more on this soon Aeshnidae. I keep an excel sheet with all the details in case I ever get the map complete so I can use the data on a Google maps type programme. But I don't really know how to do that bit yet either. Dream big I guess  :Very Happy:

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## Neyasha

> That's really interesting, Neyasha, I had not considered the challenges of translating story-relevant names into other languages (likely because when it comes to pop culture, I have Anglo-American privilege and usually don't have to think about it). I'm surprised that English-to-German translation suffers from this problem, though, since English is a Germanic language, although I suppose by now we've incorporated a lot of Romance/Latin words.


It's a bit hard to describe, at least in English (although I'm used to read in English a lot, my active language skills are quite rusty), but when it comes to Westeros the main problem is, that a lot of names are just literally translated, without considering the structure of typical German toponyms. And sometitimes there are just parts of the names translated, which leads to weird hybrid forms, for example: Mummer's Fort > Mummersfurt (but in German it should be Mummenfurt) or Casterly Rock > Casterlystein. Of course their are some names which work great, but overall Westeros doesn't have a "real" or "historical" feeling in the German translation, but more a "typical fantasy" feeling.

On the other hand, when it comes to Middle-earth (especially the Shire), the German place names don't just sound like translated from another language. There are wonderful names like Auenbronn, Michelbinge, Wasserau, Graue Anfurten or Ohnbüttel, which I could totally imagine on a real map - and although there are also some weird names, the overall feeling of the world just works really well.

And now I really have to find the "Hobbit Place-Names" in the library.

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## Azélor

> Like Aeshnidae, I'm surprised English to German has this problem! And as both you and Azélor have said, when creating fictional place names in your own native languages they often sound odd. I'm really curious as to why this might be. But I'm in a difficult position to assess it myself. I also suffer form Anlgo-American privilege and I'm not a native Irish speaker.


It depends and it's complicated. 
As Neyasha, simply translating names does not always work well. Names can create a certain feeling  , use the wrong synonym and you can ruin that. 

There is also the fact that (take ASOIAF for example)  when you get used to English names and English voices of the actors, the French version sounds somewhat silly. Your used to hear King's Landing, now it's Port Réal or something ? 

Up until quite recently, I had no idea that Ottawa and Outaouais was actually the same name. We use both in French but Anglo only use the first.

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## aeshnidae

> I think I'd like to know more about conlanging (I currently know so little that I wouldn't even attempt it) but it sounds like a rabbit hole that you could just keep going down for ages  But that book does look interesting...
> 
> I hope to post more on this soon Aeshnidae. I keep an excel sheet with all the details in case I ever get the map complete so I can use the data on a Google maps type programme. But I don't really know how to do that bit yet either. Dream big I guess


Nice! I also have an Excel sheet with info about my game world (way, way more than will ever make it into the game). I'm always interested in how other people organize (or not) their creative processes. 




> It's a bit hard to describe, at least in English (although I'm used to read in English a lot, my active language skills are quite rusty), but when it comes to Westeros the main problem is, that a lot of names are just literally translated, without considering the structure of typical German toponyms. And sometitimes there are just parts of the names translated, which leads to weird hybrid forms, for example: Mummer's Fort > Mummersfurt (but in German it should be Mummenfurt) or Casterly Rock > Casterlystein. Of course their are some names which work great, but overall Westeros doesn't have a "real" or "historical" feeling in the German translation, but more a "typical fantasy" feeling.


Your active language skills seem quite good to me.  :Smile:  Thanks for explaining (Azélor, thank you, too), that makes a lot of sense. And while I don't speak German, just the sounds of the names you listed from Middle Earth evoke a certain feeling.

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## Weery

That's a really interesting point Neyasha, that the LotR translation seems to work. Like Aeshnidae says, those German names already begin to evoke a particular feeling. I've read The Hobbit translated into Irish and I felt the same way about that translation.

You also make the point well about the importance of feeling, Azélor (especially by using the terrible example of Port Réal  :Very Happy: ). The Irish version of The Hobbit is translated to _An Hobad_ (pronounced _on hob-ad_) and honestly, this feels perfect straight away!

Another really good example is how the name Hobbiton is translated. Hobbiton is I guess, a contraction of Hobbit Town. So this translates directly into _Baile na Hobad_, Town of the Hobbits. It suits the tone perfectly as it brings to mind (to my Irish mind at least) an image of a small provincial town, a countryside village or similar. It's perfectly in tune with the tone of the book!

An interesting aside is that if _Baile na Hobad_ was to be anglicised it wouldn't become Hobbiton. It would turn into _Ballyhobbad_ or something along those lines  :Laughing:  And funnily enough, that sounds right to me, too  :Smile:

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## aeshnidae

This was just posted to one of my Facebook groups, by a native English speaker who is reading the Harry Potter series in French. She commented on how the names are translated: 

- Gryffindor > Gryffondor
- Ravenclaw > Serdaigle ("aigle" means "eagle") 
- Slytherin > Serpentard 
- Hufflepuff > Poufsouffle

- Draco > Drago
- Snape > Rogue (!! A completely different name for one of the most important characters! I guess "Snape" doesn't evoke much in French, since neither "Snake" nor "Snipe" are words. "Rogue" means the same in French as in English.)
- Prof. Sprout > Prof. Chourave ("kohlrabi"!! Hahaha)
- Hedwig > Hedwige
- Neville LongBottom > Neville Londubat (something like "far from the beat")
- Mrs Norris the cat > Miss Teigne (literally "nagger")
- Scabbers the rat > Croutard (direct translation of "Scabbers")
- Nearly-Headless Nick > Nick Quasi-Sans-Tete (literal)
- Moaning Myrtle > Mimi Geignarde ("Whining Mimi")
- Madam Hooch > Madame Bibine ("Madam Booze")
- Tom Marvolo Riddle > Tom Elvis Jedusor. They had to come up with a whole new anagram: "I am Lord Voldemort" > "Je Suis Voldemort". Also, "Jeu du Sort" means "game/riddle of fate". IMPRESSIVE.

- Muggles > Moldus
- Diagon Alley > Chemin de Travers ("Way/Path Through")
- Knockturn Alley > Allee des Embrumes (literally "Knockturn Alley"... without the pun)
- Mudblood > Sang de Bourbe (Mired Blood, or maybe BloodMire)

I wondered if they would change any of the names that are just straight-up French words, so it's not so... you know, obvious. But nope! French people are literally reading about a villain named "Flight of Death". lol. The surname of Harry's school enemy is "Done Badly" or possibly "Bad Time". lolol. And no-one can guess that the werewolf might be the new professor whose name is "Professor Wolf".

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## Weery

I had never considered how ridiculous some of these names must sound to the French  :Laughing: 

My first thought when I saw 'Elvis' in Voldemort's name was 'Bit contrived.'

And my second thought was 'Really? more contrived than Marvolo?'

Still, the jeu du sort part is really impressive  :Smile:

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## Weery

*Country Names (continued)*

I mentioned that I had an idea regarding place names in one of the countries in _Felmyr_, the three island group off the coast of _Midleset_ named _Clover_. It's to do with an invented script to represent the native language and I'm in the process of figuring out how to use it for place names on maps of the region without cluttering up the locations too much. I can use an example to explain.

*Clover Script*

Much like I explained how I'm trying to evoke certain markers with _Midleset_ and _Grimmsmouth_, I'm trying to create a certain feeling around _Clover_, too. As stated earlier, I've decided to use the Irish language as part of the basis of this. But I'm trying to compliment that with an alphabet I've created to allow me represent the language on maps. It's based off of Ogham, which was used to write the early Irish language. It survives today as stone inscriptions.

I've messed around with this for quite a while and here's my final alphabet:
Attachment 107465

And here are a few example place names from _Clover_ written in that script. The direct English translations are above and the Irish is to the left:
Attachment 107466

I hope you can see my intention. If not, my idea might not be coming across particularly well. I'm trying to take the visual of linear vertical inscriptions from stones and represent them as fragile branches or twigs. I'm hoping this ties in with how I want to present the country at a high level; a type of untamed land steeped in legend and old ways.

If you have any feedback on that I'd genuinely love to hear it. My hope with this thread is to gain an insight from others  :Smile: 

*Practical Use*

I've tried finding examples of maps using linear scripts (I've looked at Japanese ones) to guide me in displaying the script on a map. Here's what I've created so far as a result of this:
Attachment 107467

I've just placed it onto an old unused map I was drawing and stepped away from. It's obviously too Japanesey right now but I think it kind of works? Maybe?

I wonder if writing the Irish translation below is a bit cluttering? Maybe not if I don't go overboard with named locations I guess.

Anyway, that's enough on _Clover_ for now. That was a tangent I hadn't anticipated at the beginning  :Smile:  Next I'll move on to _Midleset_ and look at naming places there.

Thanks for reading  :Smile:

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## Azélor

That is a interesting idea. Imagine the possibilities if the script was shaped like a tree instead. That would be complex to understand.

Im not sure about the japanese theme. Maybe something vegetal. Zen/Bamboo + Art Nouveau?

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## Neyasha

Very nice alphabet! I always found Ogham really interesting and think it's a pity, that you rarely find anything like this in fantasy settings (in contrast to the widely used Nordic runes). 
Having the Irish translation on the map as well would be interesting - perhaps you just have to try and see if it seems too cluttered. I'm also not so sure about the Japanesey look and the rectangle looks quite harsh compared to the soft lines of the hand-drawn map. Perhaps it would work better with rounded edges.

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## MistyBeee

Oh, interesting ! 
(No V, so I can't write my first name, but if I replace V with F (which is close or same in German for example), then all the little branches are on the right side. Huhu, it seems it was a windy day for my personal little tree ^^).

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## bkh1914

I must be missing something...
Why does the vertical script need to be in a box?
Why not treat it like all the other lettering?
(You'll probably have to thicken the lines and/or add a pale outline to make it more visible.)

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## Weery

Hey all,

Thanks so much for the comments and feedback, I really appreciate it  :Very Happy: 

I hadn't actually considered trying to work this into a tree Azélor, thanks so much for that idea! I'm delighted with that suggestion.

I agree with you and Neyasha about the overly Japanesey style. And I think you're correct about the rectangle looking harsh as well Neyasha. There's no explicit reason for the box bkh, but I was worried that without some background style to make it clear the vertical script was a label, it would just look like a feature of the map. I think I will try you're suggestion of thickening the lines as a first measure.

And I'm glad you're little tree has a character all of its own Beee  :Very Happy: 

Thanks for commenting folks!

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## aeshnidae

Very cool! No J, but I can replace it with a G. And I like the fact that because I have an N, I get 3 little dots.  :Smile:  

I actually like having the Ogham-ish vertical text in a box on the map. I think if the box was made from intertwining vines or small branches, it would look fantastic.

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