# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Dungeon/Subterranean Mapping >  Dungeon Tiles

## damonjynx

Hi Folks,

As I've been rolling and creating my Dorag Skel Ruins dungeon based on the D&D 5E Random Dungeon Generators, I thought I'd create a series of battle mat tiles based on each of the various starting points, chambers and passages. The plan is, dependant on size, to create each tile on either an A4 orA3 page and laminate them for use at the table.

The first entry point is below and assumes passage widths of 10ft. I deliberately made it so I could use it with or without doors.

Thoughts?

### Latest WIP ###

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## ChickPea

Looks good!

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## Pananacakes

Yeah it does look good. I'll take a set, please.  :Smile:

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## damonjynx

> Looks good!


Thanks CP.




> Yeah it does look good. I'll take a set, please.


Thanks Pananacakes.

I changed the style somewhat to be more useful to the VTT crowd as well. Below is Page 1 which features the first 2 starting areas and first 3 passages from Appendix A: Random Dungeons, from the D&D 5E DMG.

I'll keep posting them in this thread.



Cheers,

Jim

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## damonjynx

Hi Folks,

Here are the first 3 pages...I did have 4 but my computer isn't playing nice!

I modified the style a little which is why I re-posted page 1.

These are meant to be printed out on A3 paper but can be used with VTT's as well.

Enjoy.

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## flyenemu

Damonjynx,

Hats off to you! This was an undertaking I was kicking around for a while, but my ideas as to displaying it were not nearly as beautiful. Having a set of tiles for all the possible random rooms, passages, etc. could enable even novice GMs to pickup and play a quick game when not all the players are able to continue the main campaign. Keep up the good work!  :Smile:

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## damonjynx

> Damonjynx,
> 
> Hats off to you! This was an undertaking I was kicking around for a while, but my ideas as to displaying it were not nearly as beautiful. Having a set of tiles for all the possible random rooms, passages, etc. could enable even novice GMs to pickup and play a quick game when not all the players are able to continue the main campaign. Keep up the good work!


Thanks flyenemu, glad you like them. When I' m finished I'll compile them all together as a PDF in colour & B&W along with the colour jpeg files and list them on the DM's Guild for a couple of bucks or PWYW, what do you think? Would I get many downloads do you think?

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## flyenemu

> Thanks flyenemu, glad you like them. When I' m finished I'll compile them all together as a PDF in colour & B&W along with the colour jpeg files and list them on the DM's Guild for a couple of bucks or PWYW, what do you think? Would I get many downloads do you think?


If you were to sort the different segments so they could easily be used with the tables listed in the DMG you might have a good product! In the past I have found wonderful supplements for various D&D topics (classes, monsters, maps, etc.) that offer great material, but due to formatting are nearly useless due to the trouble with adaptation to the source material. Regarding your second question, I cannot say I have tracked the download numbers for other related files, so any input I would offer would be a wild guess at best.

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## damonjynx

> If you were to sort the different segments so they could easily be used with the tables listed in the DMG you might have a good product!


I was thinking of something along those lines; Section 1 would be the Starting Areas, including passages where possible to reduce the page count, then move onto the Chambers also with passages where they fit, and finish off with the remaining passage variants. Obviously, to be more user friendly to folk who print and laminate them or whatever, I'd also label each piece in a meaningful way, that relates to the appropriate table, see the example below. 

As I'm doing this primarily for my benefit, any coin earned would be a bonus and if I made enough to treat the wife and I to a night out occasionally I'd be happy.

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## flyenemu

> I was thinking of something along those lines; Section 1 would be the Starting Areas, including passages where possible to reduce the page count, then move onto the Chambers also with passages where they fit, and finish off with the remaining passage variants. Obviously, to be more user friendly to folk who print and laminate them or whatever, I'd also label each piece in a meaningful way, that relates to the appropriate table, see the example below. 
> 
> As I'm doing this primarily for my benefit, any coin earned would be a bonus and if I made enough to treat the wife and I to a night out occasionally I'd be happy.


Damonjynx,

I think you have a really good idea going here, and look forward to seeing it continue towards completion.  :Smile:

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## damonjynx

> Damonjynx,
> 
> I think you have a really good idea going here, and look forward to seeing it continue towards completion.


Thanks mate, I think so too.

Below is a sample of the tiles without the background thrown together higeldy-pigedly. Bear in mind these are the entrances only at this stage along with a couple of passages. It demonstartes (rather poorly) how the tiles could be used at the table.

I found that for this purpose, it looks better without the background, which is how I will print them for my own use.

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## flyenemu

> Thanks mate, I think so too.
> 
> Below is a sample of the tiles without the background thrown together higeldy-pigedly. Bear in mind these are the entrances only at this stage along with a couple of passages. It demonstartes (rather poorly) how the tiles could be used at the table.
> 
> I found that for this purpose, it looks better without the background, which is how I will print them for my own use.


Damonjynx,

I can see how it will come together quite nicely! Keep up the good work  :Smile:

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## damonjynx

Thanks Flyenemu.

Here is an update. I think I'll release them as a package of jpeg files, with & without grid; Starting Area's, Chambers and Passages. I'll also include a small-ish PDF document with suggestions for use etc.

I'm open for suggestions on what people would prefer for single doorways; the hinge on a grid line, or the gridline centred on the opening? 

Here is the first entry and passage tiles:

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## flyenemu

> Thanks Flyenemu.
> 
> Here is an update. I think I'll release them as a package of jpeg files, with & without grid; Starting Area's, Chambers and Passages. I'll also include a small-ish PDF document with suggestions for use etc.
> 
> I'm open for suggestions on what people would prefer for single doorways; the hinge on a grid line, or the gridline centred on the opening? 
> 
> Here is the first entry and passage tiles:


Damonjynx,

Doorways, Traps, Hazards, Treasure, Themes , Monsters, and other interior additions that populate a dungeon might be hard to do with tiles. Each transition between one random room or passage has a chance of having one of several different types of doors, possibly trapped, if my memory is right (don't have my book on me ATM). This section of the random dungeon generation process might cause quite a bit more work depending on how you plan on representing it on your tiles. If you make each door type a separate tile you would need to figure out how it can seamlessly be implemented without throwing off your grid. How you envision your tiles being used greatly changes what options you can have, or so I think. 

You could take a look at what WOTC has done with their D&D board games for reference, but that might warrant a cease and desist letter if you plan on profiting from it in any way. If it were me, I would pull up Microsoft Office/Open Office and using an Excel document with columns and rows of identical size (thus creating a grid that is theoretically 1mil x 16000) I would insert your images and snap them to the grid. If done this way, doors and other interior stuffs can be placed over the hall, room, etc. image.

You have quite a lot of options at this point in your project, and no matter which way you go with it I feel it will be quite grand. Keep up the great work!  :Smile:

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## damonjynx

Hi Flyenemu,

I printed the first page out to give them a real "test" and I think what I'll do is leave the single doors hinged on a gridline, this means that if the door opens into a 10ft passage you just have to ensure you line up the walls on one side (see attached pic). Obviously it won't matter for 5ft passages. 



When cutting out the tiles the white space between the walls of the doorway will need to be cut-out. 

I'd like to hear your opinion re the flagstone post...

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## flyenemu

> Hi Flyenemu,
> 
> I printed the first page out to give them a real "test" and I think what I'll do is leave the single doors hinged on a gridline, this means that if the door opens into a 10ft passage you just have to ensure you line up the walls on one side (see attached pic). Obviously it won't matter for 5ft passages. 
> 
> 
> 
> When cutting out the tiles the white space between the walls of the doorway will need to be cut-out. 
> 
> I'd like to hear your opinion re the flagstone post...


Damonjynx,

I like how it looks! Quite professional and easy to read. I am still a little concerned on how doors may work as some are going to be hidden, and how you will indicate which direction a door opens (can be quite important when trying to peek into a room). Have you designed it so the grid is sized for standard miniatures? Have you thought about including spell AOE templates?

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## damonjynx

> Damonjynx,
> 
> I like how it looks! Quite professional and easy to read. I am still a little concerned on how doors may work as some are going to be hidden, and how you will indicate which direction a door opens (can be quite important when trying to peek into a room). Have you designed it so the grid is sized for standard miniatures? Have you thought about including spell AOE templates?


Hi Mate, all the tiles are being done at 100ppi with the grid at the same scale, so yes, for use with standard mini's.

Re doors and other assets; Doors, my intention was to leave a 3ft gap for single doors and a 6ft gap for double doors (900mm & 1800mm for metric folk) and I was thinking GM's could either draw on the tiles (once laminated of course) or they could download them; Bogie & Torstan (aka Jonathon Roberts) here on the guild and numerous other have assets available for download, just Google Dundjinni xxxx where xxx is what you're looking for, so I wasn't really going to do them, I suppose in the interest of offering a complete package, I could make up some wooden, stone and particularly blank wall tiles.

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## AdventureDepot

Looks great! Easy to see, looks in style of many finished professional products

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## damonjynx

> Looks great! Easy to see, looks in style of many finished professional products


Welcome to the party AdventureDepot. This is what I'm aiming for. I've started re-doing them in A0, so I can have multiple assets per page. Then I'll select each asset (using paths), copy them, with & without grid to a new PS document exactly the size of the asset, and save them as jpeg's in separate folders; Starting Areas, Passages & Chambers. Then, once I have all the assets, I'll combine them into a PDF document using Indesign and load them up to the DM Guild... a bit of work but it only took me a half an hour at lunch today to do the basic floor plan of each starting area. I'm making an assumption that all passages exiting a starting area are 10ft and all doors are double. The chambers & passages will take the most work as there are so many possible combinations of doors and passages widths...I don't think it would be possible to cover every possible combination but I'll do a few variants of each.

Below is a WIP of the starting areas.

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## flyenemu

> Hi Mate, all the tiles are being done at 100ppi with the grid at the same scale, so yes, for use with standard mini's.
> 
> Re doors and other assets; Doors, my intention was to leave a 3ft gap for single doors and a 6ft gap for double doors (900mm & 1800mm for metric folk) and I was thinking GM's could either draw on the tiles (once laminated of course) or they could download them; Bogie & Torstan (aka Jonathon Roberts) here on the guild and numerous other have assets available for download, just Google Dundjinni xxxx where xxx is what you're looking for, so I wasn't really going to do them, I suppose in the interest of offering a complete package, I could make up some wooden, stone and particularly blank wall tiles.


Damonjynx,

I am glad to hear you have already thought about the grid size and how it will fit with standard minis! That will make your project even more DM friendly. As I stated in the Flagstone thread, I think the space for doors rather than including them pre-planted is very wise, and will allow DMs to better control what they are building from the random tables. Furthermore, there are several minis for tables, chairs, chests, etc. and there is no need to include them in your set. When I have time I will have to look at your google docs to give you better feedback on that.



> Welcome to the party AdventureDepot. This is what I'm aiming for. I've started re-doing them in A0, so I can have multiple assets per page. Then I'll select each asset (using paths), copy them, with & without grid to a new PS document exactly the size of the asset, and save them as jpeg's in separate folders; Starting Areas, Passages & Chambers. Then, once I have all the assets, I'll combine them into a PDF document using Indesign and load them up to the DM Guild... a bit of work but it only took me a half an hour at lunch today to do the basic floor plan of each starting area. I'm making an assumption that all passages exiting a starting area are 10ft and all doors are double. The chambers & passages will take the most work as there are so many possible combinations of doors and passages widths...I don't think it would be possible to cover every possible combination but I'll do a few variants of each.
> 
> Below is a WIP of the starting areas.


My only concern regarding this phase of your project is the assumption that all visible exits from the entry room are 10’ wide. I understand why it is you went with this, and my only counter is in regards to the possibility of rolling a door or pathway to the contrary. However, I find it to be a very small problem, as I prefer all major exits from the entry to be 10’, with storage rooms and secret passages as the only exception. Keep up the beautiful work!! 

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## damonjynx

> My only concern regarding this phase of your project is the assumption that all visible exits from the entry room are 10’ wide. I understand why it is you went with this, and my only counter is in regards to the possibility of rolling a door or pathway to the contrary. However, I find it to be a very small problem, as I prefer all major exits from the entry to be 10’, with storage rooms and secret passages as the only exception. Keep up the beautiful work!! 


Hi Flyenemu,
Firstly, let me say thanks for your continued input and support - it means a lot!. I understand your concerns re my assumption, however, I have to start somewhere and limit the project in some manner otherwise it would be never ending. Looking at the starting areas alone, area one has 5 possible variants for the passages; 4 x 5ft, 4 x 10ft, 1 x 5ft 3 x 10ft, 2 of each and 3 x 5ft 1 x 10ft and that is a simple square room with a passage on each face so orientation doesn't matter. The same goes for starting areas 6 & 7 (the circular ones), so that's 15 tiles without making much of an effort! Actual passages and chambers are worse! So, while my tiles will be based on the 5E DMG random tables, rather than create tiles for EVERY possible outcome, I'll create a few variants of each and modify my tables to suit. So in the case of the above, instead of starting areas being a D10 (for non-gamers reading this, D# refers to how many faces the die have, so D10 is a 10-sided die) as per the DMG and rolling for passages, it's a straight D12 roll...Looking at the chambers, there are 12 types, 5 of which can have any any number of exits from 0-4, the other 7 can have up to 6, there are 2 types of exits, passages and doors, and there are up to 4 possible locations for each exit. then the passages there are 11 which can have 8 possible variants re width (limited by the size of their chamber/branching passage) and so on. I've no idea how to work out the total number of possible combinations but I'm sure it would be in the hundreds...that won't be happening! #ain'tnoonegottimefodat  :Smile:

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## LordEntrails

Just a couple observations from my experience;
- On the DMsG, I'm not a fan of PWYW. IMO it devalues your product (people download stuff just because they can get it free, even if they never open it). Charge at least a dollar, or more likely several.
- If you want them usable on VTT's, most currently suggest 10 pixels/foot (50 px/square), but I expect changes in the next year or two will push this recommendation to 20 px/ft in the next year. JPG is preferred unless you are using transparency (for doors or traps overlays). JPG quality can be anywhere between 40-70%.

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## flyenemu

> Hi Flyenemu,
> Firstly, let me say thanks for your continued input and support - it means a lot!. I understand your concerns re my assumption, however, I have to start somewhere and limit the project in some manner otherwise it would be never ending. Looking at the starting areas alone, area one has 5 possible variants for the passages; 4 x 5ft, 4 x 10ft, 1 x 5ft 3 x 10ft, 2 of each and 3 x 5ft 1 x 10ft and that is a simple square room with a passage on each face so orientation doesn't matter. The same goes for starting areas 6 & 7 (the circular ones), so that's 15 tiles without making much of an effort! Actual passages and chambers are worse! So, while my tiles will be based on the 5E DMG random tables, rather than create tiles for EVERY possible outcome, I'll create a few variants of each and modify my tables to suit. So in the case of the above, instead of starting areas being a D10 (for non-gamers reading this, D# refers to how many faces the die have, so D10 is a 10-sided die) as per the DMG and rolling for passages, it's a straight D12 roll...Looking at the chambers, there are 12 types, 5 of which can have any any number of exits from 0-4, the other 7 can have up to 6, there are 2 types of exits, passages and doors, and there are up to 4 possible locations for each exit. then the passages there are 11 which can have 8 possible variants re width (limited by the size of their chamber/branching passage) and so on. I've no idea how to work out the total number of possible combinations but I'm sure it would be in the hundreds...that won't be happening! #ain'tnoonegottimefodat


Damonjynx,

It is my pleasure to be a valued source of input for your project!  :Smile:  That being said, I must agree with your direction on this project. There is no true need to create all the variations as it would indeed be quite an undertaking that would offer little reward. 

In case you were wondering, the formula for determining the possible outcome combinations is: "nCr=n!/r!*(n-r)!", where 'n' is the number of items, and 'r' is the number of options to be decided at a given time. For further information regarding this process I would review the following link: http://study.com/academy/lesson/how-...binations.html . More of an FYI. #toomuchtimeonmyhands #styxftw

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## damonjynx

> Just a couple observations from my experience;
> - On the DMsG, I'm not a fan of PWYW. IMO it devalues your product (people download stuff just because they can get it free, even if they never open it). Charge at least a dollar, or more likely several.
> - If you want them usable on VTT's, most currently suggest 10 pixels/foot (50 px/square), but I expect changes in the next year or two will push this recommendation to 20 px/ft in the next year. JPG is preferred unless you are using transparency (for doors or traps overlays). JPG quality can be anywhere between 40-70%.


Hi Mate, the further I think about what I'm offering see the above posts re number of possible combinations, it's insane, the more I'm valuing it. PWYW won't be an option. As for the jpegs I'm working at 20px per foot at the moment. If someone wants to use them where that is not the correct size they'll have to scale it, Roll20 is 14px per foot I think for their standard grid.

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## LordEntrails

> Hi Mate, the further I think about what I'm offering see the above posts re number of possible combinations, it's insane, the more I'm valuing it. PWYW won't be an option. As for the jpegs I'm working at 20px per foot at the moment. If someone wants to use them where that is not the correct size they'll have to scale it, Roll20 is 14px per foot I think for their standard grid.


I believe most of the VTT's allow you to size the grid to what you want. 10/20 is just the recommendation. I'm pretty sure Roll20 allows that too, but I'm not sure as I use FG (which allows you to set it to whatever value you want.

What you are coming up with is definitely valuable. You might even reach out to some of the VTT's to see about getting into their store or future products. I know Map Forge had a successful Kickstarter and they are a tile based mapper and just might be perfect outlet for you.

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## damonjynx

Thanks LordEntrails, I'll bear that in mind. Once I get further down the track with it, read that as get the tiles drawn, I'll see where I'm at and take it from there. I've quite a bit of work to do to create a saleable product yet.

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## NathanC

I would suggest reaching out to the guys at d20pro they one of the three big vtt guys out there and they are alway looking for content.

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## damonjynx

> I would suggest reaching out to the guys at d20pro they one of the three big vtt guys out there and they are alway looking for content.


Thanks, Nathan. I'll be sure to check them out when I'm done.

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## damonjynx

Ok Peeps,

Here are the first 3 starting area jpegs. I'm thinking these are good to go. Thoughts?

  

The plan is you roll a D10 (there are 10 starting areas) if you roll a 2, then you roll a D3 because there are 3 variations of this area (i'm showing 2 here). This will be in the instructions page...

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## damonjynx

Where a passage has a door or branching passage should I do them with variations for both 5ft & 10ft doors and/or passages if applicable?

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## flyenemu

> Where a passage has a door or branching passage should I do them with variations for both 5ft & 10ft doors and/or passages if applicable?


Looks good, my friend! I am truly excited to see the progress. I would think doing both variations would be more beneficial, because the transition into/out of a 5' hall has a major impact on the structure of combat, puzzles, and traps. At least when I play/GM, I find constricting passageways to a single character wide offers a great tool that is lost with a 10'. This will more than double the work, but I think it is truly worth it.

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## damonjynx

> Looks good, my friend!


Thanks mate. I'm going to change them slightly, where the doors are I'm not going to continue with the passage to make it obvious that it's a door, otherwise they're barely distinguishable from the other tile.




> I am truly excited to see the progress. I would think doing both variations would be more beneficial, because the transition into/out of a 5' hall has a major impact on the structure of combat, puzzles, and traps. At least when I play/GM, I find constricting passageways to a single character wide offers a great tool that is lost with a 10'. This will more than double the work, but I think it is truly worth it.


I was leaning towards doing that, obviously a 5ft passage that ends in a door will only have a single door... :Smile:

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## damonjynx

Yet another update. A couple of the modified starting areas (which are now done! I'm not changing them again (...yet) :Smile: 

These are the versions with grids I also have them without. For doors (I'm going to do single & double, wood, stone, iron & portcullis') and blank wall sections, for VTT use are they better as PNG or JPEG or doesn't it matter?

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## flyenemu

Looking better every time you post an update, friend! I like your idea for doors, and can see how they could be used! My only worry would be how the addition of a tile less than a 5' square would change how the tiles would line up. For example: take the round room you provided in the previous post, and make the south hall the entrance/exit. If I build on the east and north exits with the desire that they later on meet, if one path has more doors, portcullis, walls, etc. than the other before they meet there will be a gap between the two paths. A way to fix this would be to use 'door' tiles as the connectors between rolled areas (halls, rooms, etc.). This can be done by including a tile for 5' and 10' offshoots that is simply blank. If you want to go a step further, you make all of the halls and rooms have a male connector end, and the doors a female, requiring them to be used. That may be a bit overkill and focused too much on the physical side of things, however, you might be able to set it up so VTT requires these door or transition segments to follow the room/halls (please note that I have no experience with VTT or any other digital battle map system). In conclusion, I find your work continues to show positive progression, and look forward to that which is to come.

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## damonjynx

> Looking better every time you post an update, friend!


Thanks mate. I'm refining as I go and I think I've got my workflow (that's a really popular buzzword  down pat now.




> I like your idea for doors, and can see how they could be used! My only worry would be how the addition of a tile less than a 5' square would change how the tiles would line up. For example: take the round room you provided in the previous post, and make the south hall the entrance/exit. If I build on the east and north exits with the desire that they later on meet, if one path has more doors, portcullis, walls, etc. than the other before they meet there will be a gap between the two paths. A way to fix this would be to use 'door' tiles as the connectors between rolled areas (halls, rooms, etc.). This can be done by including a tile for 5' and 10' offshoots that is simply blank. If you want to go a step further, you make all of the halls and rooms have a male connector end, and the doors a female, requiring them to be used. That may be a bit overkill and focused too much on the physical side of things, however, you might be able to set it up so VTT requires these door or transition segments to follow the room/halls (please note that I have no experience with VTT or any other digital battle map system). In conclusion, I find your work continues to show positive progression, and look forward to that which is to come.


Fear not! The other passage and chamber tiles will more than likely take care of these types of problems. Once you "randomly" roll your basic design if something doesn't quite work for you or you want to, as you suggest, add some form of connection between two points it should be just a simple matter of swapping out or adding an appropriate tile. I'm creating ALL of the passages in 5ft & 10ft widths, for the larger widths I may just do a selection as they will be fairly rare given the instructions in the DMG. I'm creating all the tiles in such a manner that the passage tiles can be either placed on top or below the chamber tiles. I'll post some examples shortly.

Thanks for your support and suggestions flyenemu, I really do value your contributions to this idea.

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## damonjynx

As promised here are a couple of sample passages.

You'll be able to see how they can be used in conjunction with the starting area's and used as interconnecting pieces. These are still a WIP at the moment, i.e. not labelled etc. I'm also doing 10ft and 5ft  wall sections for secret doors and stuff.

  

Here is a very quick mini-dungeon to give you an idea of how they can be used.

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## flyenemu

Aha! I see your progress, and I am impressed with how it looks! As long as you have thought over the spacing of the 'door' tiles then I would imagine you are good to go! I look forward to seeing more in the days to come.  :Smile:

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## damonjynx

Bugger me! Nearly 2 years ago since I started this. Wow, didn't think it was that long ago.

I've decided that as I nudge ever closer to retirement - turned 56 a couple of weeks ago - I'm going to finish these damn tiles off. I will create them all, as previously mentioned, at 100 ppi for the DM's Guild product and then re-scale for specific VTT's, i.e. Roll20 and so on. Did a little experiment this morning to ensure this will work.

Now, a question I have is this; the VTT's prefer jpeg for maps, PNG for assets (furnishings, tokens etc.), should I add a background to the tiles or simply make my selection the tile itself so there is no 'white space' at all in the jpeg, similar to the passages in the above post?

Edit: Just realised that Ps adds a white background to JPEG's regardless...

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## damonjynx

Hi All,

Given the sheer number of variants to each chamber, see an earlier post, I have decided to simply create the 12 chambers as closed shapes. I have also created, 5ft and 10ft door openings and corridor pieces that can be placed over the walls in appropriate positions. I think this is the most elegant and simplest solution. Thoughts? I may, to assist those that prefer 2.5D dungeons, create some appropriate door pieces, I'll hve to look at some existing exponents of that style and see how they do their doors...

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## damonjynx

Hi All,

Unfortunately, I will have to re-do all the tiles. While the tiles as posted above on this page are fine for printing/laminating & VTT use, they are not particularly friendly for the 2.5D market. The wall section is 3/10th's of inch wide and overlaps the floor space by 1/10th of an inch. This would make it very fiddly for the 2.5D enthusiasts to cut out and line up the wall sections. To correct that minor issue, which is a major headache, I have decided to re-do the walls 3/8th's of inch wide and have them line up to grid rather than have the slight overlap. While this will involve a fair amount of work, I believe it will make for a much more versatile product. Stay tuned...

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## damonjynx

Hi Folks,

Here is the cut-sheet for the starting area's let me know your thoughts. I have it set up so i can save each area both with and without the grid.

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## damonjynx

Hi Folks,

Here is a cut-sheet for a couple of the chambers. I tied putting a cobblestone-like texture on the floor. I'm not sure how I feel about it TBH. Any thoughts?

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