# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Writing, Stories, Linguistics, Toponymy and other wordy stuff ! >  The change of names over time

## Moros

I had a general question about toponymy. For a fake place that has existed for hundreds, if not thousands of years, how does one represent the gradual linguistic shift of a population in the names of places? Like how does one simulate it being taken over by a nation with a different language, and the names being (insert nation adjective)ized? Or let's say the nation does the equivalent of what happens with a lot of Chinese place names, and have it's place names westernized (or whatever equivalent may exist)?

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## Creativetides

I might say reflect the cultures of the area by making some cities having words and names associated with one culture while another represents a different culture. as a real life example look at a map of Spain or Northern Morocco you may notice some islands and cities in more southern regions of Spain or North Morocco have names that contain both Spanish and Arabic routes for the city's name, due to the occupation and influence of the Islamic empires that at one point controlled the region. In short try to reflect gradual shift in the sound and way names and cities are spelled/pronounced to show their cultural influence.

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## Azélor

Very often, the new owner will change the name just enough so that people can pronounce it with less difficulty while still keeping most letters. Also, as time goes by, names tend to get shorter. The original name had a meaning but after some iterations, it can lose the original signification for those who live there. 

People don't like generic name in fantasy but most places start with generic names. They evolve overtime but most names are actually pretty bland if you do a bit of research on them.  
This is what I mean : http://www.omnimap.com/catalog/int/kalimedia.htm

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## Pananacakes

Thanks for the link Azelor. I only wish they had digital versions of the Atlas of True Names. It's awesome.

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## kirkspencer

When I do my own shift, I use what I call the rule of laziness. That is, all changes move toward less effort on the part of the speakers. A few examples:

Unless the language is naturally polysyllabic (Polynesian for example) I drop syllables. So Wintersforge may become Winsforge.

If there is a natural consonant or vowel difficulty I may grab it. So Lollytown may become Rorytown, which per dropped syllables becomes Roytown or even Royton.

People have habits of naming. One of the big ones is adding "what is it" to the name. So Pittsburgh City and Newvilletown happen. After which slurring and comfort reduce them all. Los Ciudad de las Angeles...

Applied laziness is my goto tool for this sort of thing.

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## Tenia

There is no general rule. As Azelor ans kirkspencer said, place names tend to simplify overtime, loosing some vowels or altering/shortening the ending syllable, but this is true even without migration of populations or invasions :Suffixes -_caster_ and -_chester_ come from old English _ceaster_, itself from Latin _castrum_, sometimes through old French _castre_, the latine termination disappearing overtime. The name of Lannion (North Brittany) has slowly evolved from celtic Lann Huon (or Yuzon) without major change of population in this area.
Some thoughts :
- A city or place can be simply renamed and/or completly altered. Constantinopolis was built on the site of Bizance and has many other names by other nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_...ther_languages) Constantinople inhabitants themselves named their city "stim boli" (in the city), which gave later Istanbul...
- All phonemes are not used in every language. For example, from my experience "v" is not used by japanese speaking people and they tend to pronce it "b", "l" and "r" are not distinguished and usually written "r", so imagine a world where Japan had invaded Europe, London would probably written "Rondon" and Venice "Benice" or something like that. You could play with this.
- A place can have kept is original name but its pronunciation been altered by new rulers : "Sai Gon" whas Frenchified as "Ségon" for a time.
- Language and culture shock can lead to misunderstanding and full of placenames are pleonasms and tautologies, arising from the mixing or juxtaposition of natives names and "invaders" language. In France "Mont Ventoux" (well known by cycling enthusiasts) come certainly from pre-latin root _Vin_- (height) and -_tur_ (distance), which gives "Mont of the mont which can be seen from a distance". In "Chateaudun" -_dun_ is a celtic root meaning "height, fort", that gives "Fortress Castle". There are many examples in islands and rivers names, too : -_ey_ is a Saxon suffix for "island", so about all "(something)ey isle" are pleonasms in nothwest of Europe. Often conquerors simply added the field/place type (river, mount, coast, etc.) to a native name which already included that type, Mississippi (big river) river for example.
This reminds me a novel of Terry Pratchett where exploraters pointed the finger at a landmark and asked natives "what is this ?", who responded in their native language "I don't know", "What ?" or "Your finger idiot", these responses being promptly recorder on official maps. This certainly hapened in real life...

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## Straf

> Very often, the new owner will change the name just enough so that people can pronounce it with less difficulty while still keeping most letters. Also, as time goes by, names tend to get shorter. The original name had a meaning but after some iterations, it can lose the original signification for those who live there. 
> 
> People don't like generic name in fantasy but most places start with generic names. They evolve overtime but most names are actually pretty bland if you do a bit of research on them.  
> This is what I mean : http://www.omnimap.com/catalog/int/kalimedia.htm


I bought a couple of those maps. I kept one for myself and gave one to a friend.

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## piratboy2

There are a couple other things to consider about the change of names over time, such as how some voiced and unvoiced sounds can easily change between each other. For example, the letters 'P' and 'B' or the letters 'T' and 'D' can frequently, so, for example, in a few thousand years, London may be Lonton, or Pittsburgh may become Biddspurgh.

There is also the chance that some sounds may become transposed with each other over such a long period of time, so Pittsburgh in that could become something like Pisttbrugh.

Vowels could change significantly, even multiple times in such a long period of time, so Sydney may change to Sednay in just a couple hundred years, and then a couple hundred years later be Sudnah.

Also, while yes, as Kirkspencer mentioned, words tend to slur together and get shorter over time, it's worth saying that sometimes sounds will get added randomly, especially if they combine easily with other letters. The most notable letter (and the only one I can think of any examples for at the moment) is 'S' which can also be randomly taken out of words, both of which usually happen on the beginnings and ends of words. So with that in mind, Pittsburgh could become Spittburgh, or Scotland becomes Cotland. 

And that's all just how any language can change over time just from the interaction of the native speakers with themselves. Once you get multiple cultures or multiple languages it could change even more, as pointed out by Creativetides and Tenia respecteively.

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