# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  WIP: Waterdeep (commission, for Leopardi)

## Wingshaw

This thread is for my latest city map WIP, a re-imagining of the city of Waterdeep. This map was commissioned by Leopardi (original request thread here). I'm making this map in the same style as Pyrus (WIP here; finished map here), but hope to be able to complete it more efficiently and quickly, and avoid some of the mistakes I made last time.

Below is my initial sketch, including the layout of the city. This is a much more challenging city than Pyrus, but I think it is already off to a good start. Comments are welcome, as always.

Architecturally, Pyrus was primarily inspired by central Italy; here, I have been told the architecture can be a blend of Italian and German (something like Lombardy) so I am thinking of using the cities of Milan and Rome as my main reference points. That said, there are many diverse cultures/races here, and so a number of architectural forms will be attempted. Happy for input from Leopardi and anyone else about this.

@Leopardi: if I have questions/comments for you, I will post them either in this thread, or email them to you directly. Feel free to do the same to reach me.

THW

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## J.Edward

This should be an interesting one. I look forward to seeing the progress on it.  :Smile: 
I already like the docks and steps leading down to them.

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## Galendae

Wow!   Has an EPIC look, we could have an award winner here!

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## CaptainJohnHawk

This is going to be an awesome map. You WIP's always inspire me to sketch more.
Good luck on this, I will definitely be keeping an eye on this.

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## Wingshaw

Thanks everyone. I'll try and update regularly, but I've never been good at that. I guess it'll probably happen as it happens  :Very Happy: 

THW

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## shadire

Very nice so far THW. I'm sure you'll turn this sketch into another brilliant piece soon enough.

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Shadire.

Here's the latest progress. This map is going at a snails-pace even by my standards, but I'm hoping to really step it up over the next week.

Comments, of course, are welcome.

THW

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## Abu Lafia

Hi THW,
the "snails-pace" pays off in my view! The wonderfully detailed isometric buildings are looking great. I also really like the "rock-arch"? (don't know the english term). 
I noticed the sketched "blocks" in the west. Ilanthar did a similar thing in his WIP on Tarantia. Do you generally work like this in city-maps, that you "carve out" the final shape of the buildings from these blocks?  
Apropos snails: _Humor and patience are two camels that will carry you through any desert._ - Arabic proverb  :Wink:

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## tainotim

Very nice THW! Looks like you got some very complex level- and street-weaving going on. And you are definitely pulling it off! Already eager for your next update.

Cheers,
Tainotim

PS/ I get dizzy from  just imagining walking by the Cliffside up there. My fear of heights would not do well in this city.

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## Bogie

Nice Work!

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## Leopardi

It really is coming along beautifully I have to say! I'm a big fan of how the arches have turned out, better than how I'd originally envisioned them.  And the layout on the western arch is tied together well, spacious and airy, befitting the winged elves that live there. A few thoughts as I'm looking at the sketch (feel free to accept or reject any of them!):
- Under the eastern arch I can't tell whether the shore is slightly indented or whether there's a cave-like recess underneath the jetty there (perhaps a sort of Cloaca Maxima?). I think it might be more interesting to go with the latter, if it's possible to work it in realistically.
- If possible, the Mayor's House should have a small platform/stage abutting its south side (i.e. where you've written "Mayor's") similar to the Loggia dei Lenzi in Florence (in fact, the space in front of it could be laid out like the Piazza della Signoria if it's not too cramped to do so).  Its roof would reach roughly midway up the wall of the mayor's house, and a balcony from the house would overlook the loggia and the piazza (I imagine the view to the loggia stage would be blocked by its roof - not much can be done about that, as far as I know).
- The rotunda of the domed building (on the main level of the city, not the one on the western arch) reminds me of the Pantheon's in Rome. Is it modeled on a particular building, out of curiosity? Regardless, a very nice touch!
- I can't quite tell from the sketch whether you're planning on a single bridge spanning the river or whether there may be one or more others upstream.  I'm not sure if I have a preference for any other river spans, but my eye keeps getting drawn  near the northern city gate where I wonder if some sort of defensive structure spanning the river would work nicely.  If possible I'd hold off inking there before we can discuss our options.
- Is there room to fit in something reminiscent of the Place de l'Hotel-de-Ville upriver of the bridge on the east side, near the ghetto?  Perhaps a smaller version of this?: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...bauer_1583.jpg
- Perhaps one or two impressive examples of French Gothic architecture could be located on the east side of the city (maybe even in the ex-mural suburbs near the city wall if they don't fit well inside?), to represent the Gallic influence on the city in years past? I've mentioned their influence is limited, so these would be legacies from a distant past.

I've run out of time for writing so I'll leave it there for now.  Again, great job so far!

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## Wingshaw

@Abu Lafia: Thanks. As to your question: for me, the most important thing is to do a good job on the streets: showing not only the overall layout, but indicating the way a street gets wider or narrower, the way it bends or has a kink in it; this comes from defining the street from the city blocks, rather than the other way round (Ilanthar's map seems to do the same thing, and is, as far as I can tell, an excellent imitation of real-world historic urban form). Pencilling in the blocks in 3-dimensions simply helps me to keep the scale consistent (city maps, I think, are notorious for building scale becoming inconsistent as the cartographers works).

@Tainotim: Thanks. I surged ahead with the map last night, nearly doubling the amount drawn, so it should only be a couple of days before I am ready to update again. And no need to worry about the height of that arch: I'm sure the sea-elvish town underneath is full of good Samaritans  :Smile: 

@Bogie: thanks!

@Leopardi: Thanks Leopardi, for the praise and the additional notes. I have sent you an email responding to each of those points.

THW

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## Wingshaw

Finally got round to posting another update. Unfortunately the picture quality is absolutely awful:  had to take photos with my tablet, rather than scanning the drawing. This is also likely to be the case until the drawing is complete and I get to a copy shop. Hopefully it is at least mostly legible.

The first pic shows overall image;
The second shows the eastern hill in detail;
The third shows the western area, mostly finished, and with a prominent Elven building.building;
The fourth is a concept image for the Petrified Forest.

What do people think?

THW

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## Abu Lafia

Hey THW, as the last update, this is beautiful! And thanks for the answer on my question two weeks ago...  :Wink: . It's sometimes hard to keep track of my own activity, so i just subscribed to the thread!
- the first three pics are displayed upright (?), but maybe its only my browser. The picture quality of the second and fourth are indeed a bit awful, the others are ok for a photo. Anyways, it doesn't lower the great quality of the map itself.

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## Ilanthar

It's looking impressive THW! Even if the picture quality is indeed not very good.

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## Leopardi

Still looking great, THW!  It's true, the details are a little hard to make out, but from what I can see things are coming along quite well.  I'll make comments as I think of them (i.e. no particular order) while I scan each picture:
- The portico abutting the mayor's house is wonderful, nicely reminiscent of the Loggia dei Lenzi.  
- I like the look of the Petrified Forest section (it looks like this has just been sketched so far I think?).  The density of columns is fairly high here, which works well; I envision the density falling off as the forest fans out to the northwest, across the road; that is, the park shouldn't be completely full, but should have some spaces where future columns will be erected.
- I like the winged statue (similar to Winged Victory of Samothrace, it appears?) flanking the western arch where the winged elves live.  Very nice touch!
 - I take it the far western collection of buildings with the two high-reaching towers represents the elven community?  As I've mentioned, I'm not sure what this area should look like, but I definitely like what you've done!
- I think I spy two buildings in the French Gothic style (on the far side of the bridge and to the left, and another one block over from Belkin Market (the latter partially in ruins?  Or perhaps it's not French Gothic after all - tough to tell with the picture quality).  I like the placement, and am eager to see the final product(s)!
- I like the layout of the western (inner) wall.  It looks a little older than the buildings around it (not sure if the markings on it are cracks or other indications of age?  They're a little blurry in the pictures) which is the intention, since the wall is a legacy of earlier times and hasn't been used or kept up in some time.

That's all I can think to add right now.  Is there anything in particular you'd like to have input on, THW?

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Abu Lafia and Ilanthar.

@Leopardi: thanks. To respond to your questions:
--The main thing I wanted to know was if the Petrified Forest was ok. I'll keep in mind what you say about thinning the columns as it goes north.
--Yes, that building is meant to be Elven (although that is northern, not western, remember?)
--You're right also about the French Gothic (one of them is the Hotel De Ville one you mentioned)
--I'm glad you like the inner wall. I wasn't sure the cracks and lines would give the impression I wanted, but, since it is meant to look older, I guess I was successful.

THW

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## - Max -

Ah I missed this thread  :Frown:  Anyway, great job THW. I notice what could be a slight perspective issue though. The part on the rocks on the sea doesn't seem to have the same angle view as the rest fo the map, which attract the eye (at least mine) on a perspective gap.

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## Wingshaw

Finally, another update!

The western part of the walled city is done, and I've started on the east. The gnome houses on the eastern side are inspired by southeast Italian architectural styles.

The dragon in the lower right corner was an idea from a French guy in my house. I quite like the idea, but it is down to the client, as always.

Sorry again about the poor picture quality.

THW

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## Lingon

Wow, this looks gorgeous! I'm also seeing the perspective issue that Max pointed out, but it could be caused by the camera angle too, it's hard to say. The individual blocks look flawless, but across the whole city, it appears skewed. If you want to improve the picture quality, try taping the paper to a wall so you can take a photo at 90 degrees to the surface more easily.

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## Chick

People who can draw like this just amaze me  :Smile:

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## Domino44

How have I missed this thread!??! Great work so far!

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## Wired

Wow, this is incredibly impressive!

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## Ilanthar

It's gonna be really awesome when finished! Can't wait to see it.

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## Leopardi

Such a beautiful map, and such a monumental task to put it together - I'm amazed (and very glad) you dared to take the task on, THW!

The Petrified Forest looks great!  A nice mix of columns and open space as I'd hoped.  And the church adjacent to it, although I'm sure it's based on an Italian model or pure imagination, reminded me right away of St. Stephen's Basilica in Budapest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Stephen%27s_Basilica), at least from the front, and it's definitely something I can work with.

I like the cluster of river gnome buildings, and at first was going to suggest a second grouping further upriver, but on second thought I think it would clash with the other plans on the east bank, so better to say that it's located on the west bank and hidden by the west arch (i.e no changes necessary to the map).

Do you have an idea as to the topography outside the city gates, alongside the river?  I had envisioned something slightly hilly forming an embankment for the waterway, but it's only a vague notion at this point.  If there's space for a prominent enough hill (not necessarily outside the gates, anywhere outside the walls would do), perhaps an observatory like Brahe's Uraniborg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uraniborg) might work?  It's slightly anachronistic, but what a building!

I'm not sure yet about the dragon idea; I was thinking of something simpler, a smattering of water traffic, and I'm worried the dragon might draw too much attention from the city due to its size.  But by the same token, having that expanse of water with just a few ships may seem too empty on its own. Could you hold off on laying anything down in ink in this area for now so I can mull it over?

All in all, some fantastic progress so far!

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## Wingshaw

Thanks guys, for those comments.

@Max and Lingon: I think getting consistent perspective is probably the hardest part of an isometric map, especially one with this level of detail. It is too late to rectify the areas that have been inked in on this map, but I am very open to suggestions about how to ensure perspective and scale remain consistent in future, particularly from such seasoned cartographers as yourselves!

@Leopardi: I am glad you like the progress so far. Regarding the points you raised:
--The church next to the Petrified Forest is actually more inspired by St Paul's in London than Italian churches, but I definitely see the resemblance to that Hungarian example, now that you point it out.
--I was a bit worried the gnome houses wouldn't seem numerous enough. I like your suggestion with them.
--Re. the northern suburbs, I was also thinking of high steep hills, with semi-dense settlement around, interspersed, perhaps, with patches of farmland and woodland etc. I think the observatory building could fit into that space north of the orcish quarter.
--The dragon is a rather extreme and silly idea. Happy to omit the dragon.

I'll try and update again soon.

THW

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## tainotim

Whoaw! I completely missed your last update: and must say, it looks superb. A very creative city map.  I just wish that you had some better scans of the WIP images as well  :Smile:  Perhaps I asked earlier in this thread, but do you plan on coloring this one? Personally, I would love to see a final BW version of this with a subtle texture, and some nice hand-drawn shadows, and perhaps some lore neatly scribbled in a corner or something. 

Oh and, do you have any plans for the outskirts?  With such a vast, detailed city it would probably benefit from some open field outside the walls  to make it easier for the eyes to take it all in  :Smile:  

Keep up the good work! 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## J.Edward

Hey THW, any new progress with this beauty?
I hope to see it done at some point.  :Smile:

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## Wingshaw

Well, I've not been checking in on the Guild much lately, but I have been (very) slowly continuing work on this.

Here's the latest update. All that remains on the drawing is the underwater city area, windows/doors, and maybe hand-drawn shadows (as tainotim suggested).

Sorry for the really late reply and lack of activity. Thanks to everyone for the comments.

THW

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## Barek333

Wow this looks great! cant wait to see the finished product  :Smile:

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## Chick

Hey THW!!   Good to see you back  :Smile:

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## Bogie

Great map, coming along nicely.

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## Ariz89

Woow yet a great map ! Really like the drawing style

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## tainotim

Very happy to see progress on this. And it's nothing less than expected. Great work, and very inspirational! Actually was thinking about this map the other day, and was about to pm you about it. Hope you will have time to color this as well  :Smile: 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## J.Edward

It's looking great THW.  :Smile: 
I know it's tough sticking to such a big city.
You're doing such an incredible job on this.

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## Ilanthar

I'm glad you're keeping this wonderful map. Take the time you need... as long as we can see the finished map  :Razz: !

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## Wingshaw

Thanks for the praise/comments.

Well, I finally finished drawing this map. (Unfortunately, I could only upload as a pdf, for now).

Next steps: colour, texture, shadows, labels, ships.

But first, I think I'm going to need a new computer.

Comments always welcome and very much appreciated (even if I am rubbish at answering these days).

THW

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## Chick

THW!!  You're back!!   YAY  :Smile: 

Fabulous map, just awesome  :Smile:

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## Diamond

Holy crap.  Astounding.

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## ChickPea

This is outstanding!

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## Barek333

Wow this looks amazing, reminds of tainotim work which I think says enough for itself  :Smile:

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## Josiah VE

:O!!! Absolutely amazing!

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## Blaidd Drwg

Absolutely fantastic!

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## takashi_tk

Amazing map !

Impatient to see more...

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## Ilanthar

Good to see you back on this huge project! Outstanding is the right word, I'm speechless.

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## Bogie

Fantastic Map, Great detail!

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## tainotim

Awesome THW! Always a delight to see your progress on this. Will be fantastic when complete! Hope all is well.

The annoying part is that your updates always makes me want to draw cities. The endless cycle resumes again. Haven't we been through this before?  :Wink: 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## DanielHasenbos

Wonderful map! I have checked this thread a couple of times over the last months to see if there was any progress and the result is fantastic!

-Dan

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## Wingshaw

Thanks for the comments, guys.

Tainotim: I can't imagine anyone will complain if our endless city-mapping feedback loop resumes...

Small update to the map, showing the first stages of colouring.

THW

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## Norimn

Awesome drawing!  :Smile:

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## Lingon

Looks amazing THW, love that sunken city  :Smile:

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## Domino44

Wow! That is a lot of work! Amazing so far...

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## Roger Mann

Hi THW, I'm a newbie to the site and only began posting this morning so excuse any hiccups in propriety here. It seems we have a similar approach as in hand-drawn,isometric/oblique renderings. I love the idea of creating from historical sources, even more so the opportunity to show development through the ages. My main client always insists that every street should be visible which means shrinking blocks of buildings and allowing no overlap. This can be a real pain and I'm guessing that the small size of the blocks you have to show don't allow for much of that. However as yours won't be used as a wayfinder map I'm probably talking out of turn. 

I'll be interested to see the development of this piece as the previous historical works I've seen on here of yours are exquisite.

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## tilt

looks amazing... love that style and the sunken part of the city is a very nice idea  :Smile:

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## Roger Mann

Hi THW, I repied to your message but can find no evidence of it - your message is there, my reply isn't. I know this thread isn't relevant to that but bear with me until I find my way around the rules of this site.

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## Wingshaw

Hi all.

Thanks for the comments and the encouragement.

Here is the latest update (as well as an in-the-middle progress snap). I haven't worked out how to do the underwater city yet--I think a simply low-opacity won't be quite enough. Open to suggestions on it...

PS: Roger, I received your message. I haven't had a chance to reply yet, as I am rarely on Cartographers Guild these days, but, rest assured, any message you send to me on this website will reach me eventually. I will try to send you a reply soon.  :Smile: 

THW

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## Roger Mann

Hi THW, thanks for your response. As for the underwater city, I'd try adding a tint of the original colour to sunken buildings and elements which would give then more presence - I assume this would be done on a separate layer which could be replaced or updated by a stronger or weaker version if required. I'm guessing that isolating individual buildings etc. could be tedious digitally but at least you could experiment with different strengths, something that would be difficult in watercolour as I work.

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## Norimn

The water looks awesome!

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## Domino44

Wow, this looks amazing!!! I really love the portion thats underwater! Can't wait to see it finished.

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## Wingshaw

Thanks for those comments.

Roger: for the underwater areas, I will probably go with something blue-tinged but reminiscent of the above-water colours. A little as I have the underwater roofs, now, but with a few filters thrown over. I'm also planning on leaving them until last, so I don't need to worry about them right now.

Below is another update.

Here's what still needs to be done:
--finish colouring the suburbs (walls, roads, farmlands etc.)
--add some texture (paths in the grass, mud in certain areas etc.)
--add variation to some buildings (the wooden district in the top, for example, will have some different tones to it, among others)
--add shadows (on buildings, on pavement/ground, on rocks/hills)
--identify landmarks (select within saturation layer--already added a few)
--label landmarks
--add border and ships to the harbour

Comments, critiques and suggestions welcome, as always.

THW

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## Ilanthar

I would like to be able to give a good advice on this impressive map. But, I've nothing that is not in your "to do list", so... I'm just saying how I love your work on this!

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## Robulous

Impressive level of detail. My eagle eye wonders what are those columns in the big centre square by the cathedral? Grave markers, trees?

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## Gozquarter

This latest revision is stunning. I love all of the little intricate details on the buildings and in the bay area.

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## Wingshaw

Thanks guys.

The columns in the middle are, from what I have been told, memorials and maybe graves.

Latest update. Nearly done with the colouring, and so will soon begin shadows.

THW

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## Norimn

Looks awesome, especially the bridge/cliff above the water! Can't wait to see the finished version  :Smile:

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## ChickPea

Looks amazing! I love how those underwater buildings are represented.

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Norimn and ChickPea.

THW

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## Wingshaw

Another update. Shadows on the buildings are done, some of the shadows on the ground have also been done, and I've experimented with an alternative way to depict the underwater buildings. What do y'all think?

THW

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## Josiah VE

Amazing! I think I like the new way of depicting the underwater buildings better. Can't wait to see this completed.

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## Wingshaw

Thanks Josiah  :Smile: 

At last, the drawing is finished, and fully coloured. It took roughly 1 year and 5 months--far too much time. Now, I just have to do the labels, and then it is done...

I've uploaded 3 pics: one showing the finished thing as intended, another showing it without linework, and a third without colour. The second and third are just for fun.

THW

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## Ilgoth

Looks amazing THW, I love your work. Amazing job. Congratz!

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## Wingshaw

Thanks for those comments, everyone. Sorry I have been so unresponsive on the Guild, lately. The finished map thread is now up, and can be found here.

THW

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