# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Dungeon/Subterranean Mapping >  Ruins Of Undermountain III (BIP Project)

## Doirche

Hey everyone,

Here is what I have done so far for Undermountain Level 7. Mind you that I did NOT design the dungeon itself, it was hand drawn by Halaster Blackcloak at the BIP website. All I do is take the hand drawn maps and make it look nice, hehe.

There is still a bunch of work to be done on this level. I am still learning the ins and outs of Adobe Illustrator and have made plenty of mistakes along the way.

One of the biggest things that I think needs changing is the grid color. In the original set, the grid was grey, this grid is black and it tends to make the map look too dark when printed out. Another thing is the border spacing needs to be tweaked. I'd also like to lighten up the "core rooms" (orange in color) as they also print a little too dark but this may be an illusion from the black grid. We'll see.

Please let me know what you think of it so far. Feedback is welcome! Even if it stings....  :Very Happy:

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## Doirche

One other thing.... on another website, a few people complained about the use of the "Forgotten Realms" map legend and said it may be a copyright violation to use it. I have contacted Wizards of the Coast and asked them if they had a problem with the BIP project using the graphic in our maps. I have not heard back from them yet, but when I do and if they say it's an issue, I will take the map down immediately.

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## ravells

I have never in my life seen such a big dungeon.

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## Redrobes

Hi Doirche, This is a great map of course. Could you write a few lines about how and why this map was made. I have caught a few bits of the puzzle in that WotC published some and missed some and now its being expanded - or something like that...

As you can tell I haven't been following the story on this so what does the orange rooms signify ?

Also I believe that WotC would be legally _obliged_ to object to the use of the trademark - that would even be the case when they privately thought that it was a very good map.

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## Doirche

> Hi Doirche, This is a great map of course. Could you write a few lines about how and why this map was made. I have caught a few bits of the puzzle in that WotC published some and missed some and now its being expanded - or something like that...
> 
> As you can tell I haven't been following the story on this so what does the orange rooms signify ?
> 
> Also I believe that WotC would be legally _obliged_ to object to the use of the trademark - that would even be the case when they privately thought that it was a very good map.


Thank's for the comments Redrobes  :Smile: 

The Ruins of Undermountain was a "megadungeon" published by TSR back in 1991. The complex was supposed to have 9 main levels and over 14 sub-levels. The original box set published contained the uppermost three levels of the dungeon. The orange rooms signify "core" rooms, or rooms in which player characters were likely to explore during their travels throughout the dungeon.

TSR then published The Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels three years after the original set was introduced. This box set was generally disliked by the public as the style of map changed significantly from the original set. In it were four poster sized maps that detailed levels 5, 6 and two sub-levels. (Level 4 was skipped for some reason.)

Several smaller modules were published with the title "Dungeoncrawl" in which they detailed several more sub-levels of Undermountain.

Last year sometime (I think), WotC published "Expedition to Undermountain". This product actually had maps for all 9 levels of the dungeon, but they were horribly done (IMO) and one is even a rip-off of another dungeon from a separate product.

So... the BIP (Back In Print) project was formed to faithfully reproduce all of Undermountains levels with the same style that was done in the original release. The Ruins of Undermountain III: The Deadly Levels will entail Levels 7 and 8 as well as one sub level. After that is published (sometime this summer we think) work will begin on The Ruins of Undermountain IV: Lair of the Mad Mage and will only entail level 9 of the dungeon.

Once that is completed, we will go back and complete levels 4-6.

I hope that answered your questions.  :Razz:

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## Doirche

Here is a pic of me holding the map, just to give a sense of scale.

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## pyrandon

Undermountain is not familiar to me, as I left D&D in 1988 & gaming altogether in 1990, but this is a neat project!  That pic of you holding the map is also very cool:  you should be very proud of your work!!

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## thebax2k

Very impressive Doirche.  I followed the threads on the BIP board a bit, and if I understand it right, level 8 and 9 are going to be double sized?  Good Heavens, if level 7 is normal sized, I can't begin to imagine all the stuff you can squeeze in with twice the space--good luck.

(note IANAL) If Wizards does send you a c&d, try redoing it to be more like the Dungeon Under the Mountain.  They've pushed out 6 or 8 levels and they have not been sued or enjoined.

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## Doirche

> Very impressive Doirche.  I followed the threads on the BIP board a bit, and if I understand it right, level 8 and 9 are going to be double sized?  Good Heavens, if level 7 is normal sized, I can't begin to imagine all the stuff you can squeeze in with twice the space--good luck.
> 
> (note IANAL) If Wizards does send you a c&d, try redoing it to be more like the Dungeon Under the Mountain.  They've pushed out 6 or 8 levels and they have not been sued or enjoined.


Actually Level 9 is going to be a *QUAD* size map  :Evil: 

WotC did reply to me, but no c&d was issued. Basically it said thanks for your interest in WotC products.... blah blah.... whatever. The way I see it, we're making this for FREE to be used by dungeon masters and players around the world so no harm no foul imo.

I looked at the "Dungeon Under The Mountain" maps published by 0one games a little while back and I was duly impressed with them. So much so in fact I purchased the first level map and promptly emailed the webmaster asking what program was used to make it. He told me Illustrator of course! So hence why I began using Illustrator for my maps. 

I'd like to say thanks to everyone who has commented so far. It's appreciated  :Smile:

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## Clercon

Really nice map.....and impressievly big. Show me more :-)

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## The Cartographist

Really like the map and the style.  Good job.

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## Anna

That is a great looking map Doirce!

I found the Ruins of Undermountain on a shelf in my RPG library (despite being a Greyhawk fan)  :Wink:  and you have done a great job with your map.

The copy rights issues interest me a lot, since my Greyhawk project has the same legal implications. I decided to call my project Atlas of the Flanaess to avoid using any trade marks. Im also giving away all my maps and not doing it for profit.  

WotCs reply is interesting, since it means that I could stamp my maps Atlas of Greyhawk with the logo and they would accept it. But I think RedRobes is right, they have to object if I did, so I will keep using Flanaess.

But again great work!

//Anna

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## Doirche

Thanks everyone for the feedback and praise, I really appreciate it.

Work will begin soon on level 8 of the dungeon and I'm looking forward to getting started. I may be under an NDA of sorts as far as pre releases of the map, but I'll see what I can do to post some screens of it as the work progresses.

I have thought about the copyright issue and have decided to press onwards with the map in it's current form. I highly doubt WotC will say anything, but if they do, we will deal with it at that time.

Again, thanks for the comments.  :Smile: 

-Doirche

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## jaerdaph

Wow - these are absolutely amazing, Doirche! I couldn't tell them from the real thing.  :Smile: 

Yeah, the black background maps from the Undermountain I box look a lot sharper than the ones that came in the UM II box.

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## mathuwm

really nice map

if you have any specific CS2 questions let me know
i would be glad to help

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## Doirche

> really nice map
> 
> if you have any specific CS2 questions let me know
> i would be glad to help


Actually I do have a question  :Smile: 

Is there any way to shift the "work area" opposed to the "grid" displayed by Illustrator CS3?

What I am saying is, if my work area or image size is 20.75" across and 30.5" down, is there a way to align the grid so that it is aligned with the right side of the image and not on the left? 

As it stands right now, the document size is centered on the left side, and the grid is off by .5 on the right hand side of the workable area.

I'm not sure if I am making sense here. Maybe I need to post an image of what I am talking about?

Please let me know if I should post an image of this. Any replies are greatly appreciated.

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## Doirche

Another thing about the alignment is, since Level 8 is to be a double sized map joined on the vertical axis as opposed to the horizontal axis like level 3 was, I need the grid displayed in Illustrator to line up with the vertical axis on the right side of the level 8 "West" and on the left side of Level 8 "East"

Does that make sense?

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## mathuwm

Attachment 3085

the grid aligns with the ruler 
just move the ruler to align with the edge of you image

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## Doirche

> Attachment 3085
> 
> the grid aligns with the ruler 
> just move the ruler to align with the edge of you image


Thanks! Worked like a champ  :Smile:

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## grymlord

where can i get copies of Ruins 3 maps?  

Your  work looks great  so far  look forward to further releases.  Is this project one that will be produced  for  sale. Or is it a  personal project> i am  unfamiliar  with the process you are  working on.

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## torstan

Hmm, that attachment link is broken for me. Not sure what happened there.

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## someguy

> I have never in my life seen such a big dungeon.


Think that ones big? I can handle a dungeon that size, but this one --> link <--- Is just way too big.

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## mathuwm

yeah the worlds largest dungeon guys

I noticed that the areas of the map don't tile to well together



we could make are own (worlds hugest dungeon ) or some such thing

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## Highland_Piper

So what happened to this project?  It seems the links are mostly dead.  The other website said he was working on other maps.  I was interested in seeing them.

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## thebax2k

Highland_Piper, I think on the forum for the project (http://www.undermountain.org/forums/index.php) Doirche or Halaster (the project's head) said that the level 7 map was going to be the only preview piece of cartography, which is a shame, since the level 8 map is going to be double sized compared to level 7 and level 9 is going to be quad sized (see above posts).  

They did have an art preview on the undermountain site (really cool female mage pic), but that's about it.  From the posts, I think Halaster recently  finished writing level 7 (the levels will have room descriptions similar to the original undermountain), I don't know when he is going to finish levels 8 and 9.  Possibly next year.  

You may want to sign up over there and ask them for an update.  Its been several months since the last one.  It does look like work is going on, albeit slowly.  I'm just hoping the project releases one day and does not become an rpg equivalent of Duke Nukem Forever.

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## Highland_Piper

I have tried to register with that site but after the fifteenth time of it telling me "User Name Disallowed" I figured that it must be broken or they are not allowing anyone to register any more.

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## Doirche

Work is still proceeding on the Ruins of Undermountain III project (albeit very slowly though). We have had a very difficult time locating an artist and that has been a big holdup. The maps for the project are 99% complete and room descriptions are complete for Level 7 and 50% for level 8. Typesetting will begin shortly but we still need cover and interior art. 

This project WILL be completed folks... it's just taking longer than anticipated as we only have a small staff (four of us) that are working on it. Again... this release will be 100% free to everyone.

@ Highland_Piper 

I'm pretty sure Halaster has banned all usernames as he was having to delete many new accounts on a daily basis as they were spammers. I'll let him know you are trying to register at the site.

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## Doirche

Here is a WIP by one of the fans of the BIP Project. Slade88green hand drew the map for his version of level 4 of Undermountain and I put it in the BIP format using Adobe Illustrator. Slade said his map is double wide and as soon as he posts the right half I will get that converted as well and post it here.

This is a WIP so archetectural things like pillars, stairs, etc have not been added yet. Stay tuned!

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## Fuse

Ah this is so cool! Great job on this map.
It reminds me of a huge map I drew a couple years ago. It was about 16 sheets of graph paper taped together at the seams.. Of an 'undermountain' type terrain. The entrance was a Goblin horde's cave which led to a giant expanse of caverns inside a dead volcano. I believe there was also a Dwarven hold and deeper down there were vast fields of fungi and an area of nothing but crystal deposits everywhere. brings back memories..
Damn I think I'd like to do that again!

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## whtknt

I love the Dungeon Under the Mountain series (in fact, I like most of 0One's Blueprints). I am well and familiar with Undermountain, but my group plays 4E at the moment, so sprawling complexes don't work as well for us.

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## MadCartographer

I have level's 1-5 plus:
The Lost Level
Maddgoth's Castle
The Crystal Labyrinth / Stardock

All in CC3.  They were originally done in CC2, as the Interactive Forgotten Realms Atlas.  It's a collections of 464 maps done in amazing detal.
I refer to this collection all the time.

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## MadCartographer

I have a product called "The interactive Forgotten Realms Atlas", its a CD that has alot of CC3 files, and some of the files are the Undermountains.  It comes with levels: 1, 2, 3, 4 Wyllowwood, 4 Trobrainds Graveyard, 4 Muirals Gauntlet, 5, The Lost Levels & The Crystal Labyrinth / Stardock.  Very nice files.  I like yours too.

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## grymlord

> Work is still proceeding on the Ruins of Undermountain III project (albeit very slowly though). We have had a very difficult time locating an artist and that has been a big holdup.


So your looking for an  artist?
What are you looking for exactly?  give me an  idea I may be able to  submit some stuff for you.
I've been  looking for a project to occupy my free time.
Send me a message and I will see what i can  come up with.  Couldnt  hurt  right?  :Twisted:

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## McDeath

I really hate bringing up zombie threads but I've been away from the internet for a few years and was actually trying to track down Doirche.  While I was away there was some communication problems between him and Halaster.  I don't know the specifics and was wondering if he was ok and still kicking.  The project has really seemed to slow down.  It is a pity as I really liked his cartography.  Anyone know if he's still around?

Note: I'm a member of Dragonsfoot and also a member of the BIP site though I really haven't contributed much in these years.

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## ravells

McDeath,  please see this post:

http://www.cartographersguild.com/ge...k-diorche.html

Thanks

Ravi

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## Wayne Arsenault

are you still working on the project? is it available somewhere for download?

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## arsheesh

Wayne please refer to this post.

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## The Arcanamach

Does anyone know the status of this project?  Sadly, I'm unable to join the site directly (it keeps telling me my username and email were 'banned') and the last dated post there is from October 2013 and there doesn't seem to be any way of contacting a admin/mod for assistance.  It seems a ton of work went into this but there are no downloads available.

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## ChickPea

See Arsheesh's comment directly above yours.

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## McDeath

Has anyone here heard from Halaster from BIP lately?  I email and post there. But absolute silence.

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