# Community Participation > Mapping Challenge Suggestions >  Game of Thrones map

## Naima

Hi.... in April the final season of Game of thrones will be arriving ... and I guess everyone knows how important is the map of the world in that series....
So much that its even featured in a splendid intro...

how about a strange challenge where partecipants post their GOT map ? Or even simply tied to it? From the whole world map , to a Westrros one or even a city ?

Just an idea  :Smile:  ...

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## Azélor

Yes, or post a map how how you think the series will end. 

Some people might find the suggestion too specific.

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## Falconius

I find it too specific personally.  Also whilst the map in the opening sequence is one of the most awesome things ever, all the actual maps for GOT world are... garbage (even the ones prettied up by an adept hand).

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## Naima

Lol ... why garbage? I saw some really cool ones... the only criticism I could rise is to the originals as to me make little sense geologically in many features.

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## Falconius

The features, the plainness, the blockiness of the landmass.  It's clearly a land made up of deus ex machina conveniences to serve the story, which is fine, but it makes for an ugly map, especially when so clearly just hacked together.  The worst of them by far is Westoros but the lands to the east aren't much better.  I've also seen some really well done examples of GOT maps, but putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it any less of a pig.

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## Warlin

> The features, the plainness, the blockiness of the landmass.  It's clearly a land made up of deus ex machina conveniences to serve the story, which is fine, but it makes for an ugly map, especially when so clearly just hacked together.  The worst of them by far is Westoros but the lands to the east aren't much better.  I've also seen some really well done examples of GOT maps, but putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it any less of a pig.


Hey Falconius, I have the same feeling about this map, geologically speaking. But I have to say that it's seems to be just a rough sketch used to serve the story which is really much better structured. There would be other remarks to make on the incongruity of the so much different noble houses on such a small surface of earth and the little importance made in the narration for the economical structures necessary to feed all these warlike people ...
How about making a new GOT map that take all this elements in consideration ?

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## Kellerica

I will have to agree with Falconius and Warlin, the Song of Ice and Fire maps definitely leave a lot to be desired... There have been some talented artists taking a stab at it, but Falc's lipstick & pig analogy is spot on. I don't think I could ever be bothered to actually map the place myself, the 90 degree angle between the west and east would drive me completely bonkers  :Very Happy:

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## Voolf

I like the book and series, but i also feel like this map was covered already by many good artist. That kind of challange is too specific and for real GOT mianiac lovers only.
I am not saying no to the challange, Maybe there will be enough people having fun with this, but personally i would pass.




> The features, the plainness, the blockiness of the landmass. It's clearly a land made up of deus ex machina conveniences to serve the story, which is fine, but it makes for an ugly map, especially when so clearly just hacked together. The worst of them by far is Westoros but the lands to the east aren't much better. I've also seen some really well done examples of GOT maps, but putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it any less of a pig.


I think it's a bit too harsh to say that, but i understand and respect your opinion.
but... 
Maps don't have to be pretty. They are representation of a land that formed over the course of milliard years. Due to various factors the land is shaped in unexpected way, sometimes even unbelievable (just because we don't understand how it was formed). People are so prone to say, "that dosen't exist" just because they have never seen it before. Our experience in lands formation ends on Earth and couple images from other close solar system planets. Considering whole space out there... that is pretty small knowledge.

In addition as always in FANTASY world maps dragons and magic are always fine, but a river going upstream is not. i really don't understand the logic here  :Smile:

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## Kellerica

> In addition as always in FANTASY world maps dragons and magic are always fine, but a river going upstream is not. i really don't understand the logic here


For me, the key is reason and effort. 

The map, to me, is a story within itself. And the good basic rule of storytelling is that you should be able to tell what purpose a thing serves to the narrative, and give it a reason for doing so. I have no problem with a river running upstream, if the creator of the map has set up some sort of a reason for it to exist ("A rivers runs upwards the hill, into a garden where a quirky demi-god once lived, who enjoyed creating things that defy the very laws of nature. Even the master of the garden is long gone, the magic of his creation still lingers..." etc.). A fantasy world doesn't necessarily have to follow flawless Earth logic, but it needs to follow a consistent logic of its own in order to feel believable. I'm willing to buy an awful lot of unrealistic stuff as long as it has been set up in a logical fashion. But there is a big difference between well thought-out fantasy weirdness, and just explaining your lazy worldbuilding away with "eh, it's magic, it doesn't have to make sense".

And just for the record, I think the same does apply to dragons and magic and the other typical fantasy stuff as well as geological inconsistencies. Don't just lazily drop dragons into your world for the sake of having dragons, if they add absolutely nothing to the narrative of the world.

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## Naima

> The features, the plainness, the blockiness of the landmass.  It's clearly a land made up of deus ex machina conveniences to serve the story, which is fine, but it makes for an ugly map, especially when so clearly just hacked together.  The worst of them by far is Westoros but the lands to the east aren't much better.  I've also seen some really well done examples of GOT maps, but putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it any less of a pig.


Haha... thats brutal... but to be honest checking most of the fantasy maps the majority of them make no sense if we go nitpicking.
To make an example in westeros map  the green fork river comes out of a plain or a marsh.. but willing to find an explanation ... it could be not a river but a long fault ... so finding some natural  reasons may be could be interesting.

As for shape I think with the proper reasoning it could have som reason...

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## Warlin

Hey ! Splendid Naima ! I never have thought to do this approach of two lands building together the seven kingdoms. But after all, it's logical. Well find !

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## Voolf

> For me, the key is reason and effort. 
> 
> The map, to me, is a story within itself. And the good basic rule of storytelling is that you should be able to tell what purpose a thing serves to the narrative, and give it a reason for doing so. I have no problem with a river running upstream, if the creator of the map has set up some sort of a reason for it to exist ("A rivers runs upwards the hill, into a garden where a quirky demi-god once lived, who enjoyed creating things that defy the very laws of nature. Even the master of the garden is long gone, the magic of his creation still lingers..." etc.). A fantasy world doesn't necessarily have to follow flawless Earth logic, but it needs to follow a consistent logic of its own in order to feel believable. I'm willing to buy an awful lot of unrealistic stuff as long as it has been set up in a logical fashion. But there is a big difference between well thought-out fantasy weirdness, and just explaining your lazy worldbuilding away with "eh, it's magic, it doesn't have to make sense".
> 
> And just for the record, I think the same does apply to dragons and magic and the other typical fantasy stuff as well as geological inconsistencies. Don't just lazily drop dragons into your world for the sake of having dragons, if they add absolutely nothing to the narrative of the world.


Generally agree. Those are some good points Kell.
It is just. Sometimes it hits me when people so easily rejects something really JUST because they never saw it. That dosen't disprove anything.

Consider that drawing ravine or canyon with 90degree curves would seem strange and "impossible" several years ago, but after we saw high-res images of mars depicting this:

all of a sudden when someone makes maps like that, the voices of "garbage map" says "well done, great map" 

OH the irony !

Edit: And as Naima posted already Westeros is based on our world's land. Other then "I don't like the land" (which is totally fine considering one's aesthetic prefereces) i would not agree that it's "garbage". You would have to say that Ireland and UK are garbage too to some degree  :Smile:

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## Naima

> Generally agree. Those are some good points Kell.
> It is just. Sometimes it hits me when people so easily rejects something really JUST because they never saw it. That dosen't disprove anything.
> 
> Consider that drawing ravine or canyon with 90degree curves would seem strange and "impossible" several years ago, but after we saw high-res images of mars depicting this:
> 
> all of a sudden when someone make maps like that, the voices of "garbage map" says "well done, great map" 
> 
> OH the irony !


About that canyon I remember a new theory that explained it as a cosmic lightning bolt that struck the surface... kind of sounds like magic ...

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## Kellerica

> Generally agree. Those are some good points Kell.
> It is just. Sometimes it hits me when people so easily rejects something really JUST because they never saw it. That dosen't disprove anything.
> 
> Consider that drawing ravine or canyon with 90degree curves would seem strange and "impossible" several years ago, but after we saw high-res images of mars depicting this:
> 
> all of a sudden when someone makes maps like that, the voices of "garbage map" says "well done, great map" 
> 
> OH the irony !
> 
> Edit: And as Naima posted already Westeros is based on our world's land. Other then "I don't like the land" (which is totally fine considering one's aesthetic prefereces) i would not agree that it's "garbage". You would have to say that Ireland and UK are garbage too to some degree


Yeah, fair enough, I do see your point. Maybe garbage is indeed too strong word. I don't think there is necessarily anything in there that is impossible, and I was really speaking more generally while talking of the whole using magic to cover up lazy worldbuilding. I actually really enjoy GRRM's worldbuilding and really love the Song of Ice & Fire books, even if I'm not a fan of the map itself. But honestly, I'm so much of a visual person, that I just like it when things look aesthetically pleasing, and I'll have to own up to that. Different strokes.

For me personally, the coastline details and the stuff inside them isn't really the issue. For me, it's these lines that I see every time I look at the map, and I just can't unsee them. Don't know if they are really geologically impossible, but they sure look ugly to me  :Very Happy:

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## Falconius

It's not geological possibility or impossibility that bothers me, in fact I don't particularly care that much about those so long as a map is cool enough or the story strong enough to pull it off.  In this case the story is strong enough to pull it off.  The largest part of what makes the maps boring is exactly what Kellerica just posted.  The other thing that bothers me is as I mentioned the it's got every thing you need in the area type of contrivance, you've got England, you've got France, you've got Arabia, you've got the Holy Roman Empire, you've got vikings, you've got the library of Alexandria, etc. etc.  And places, you've go the Pyke, you've got a giant cool ice wall, you've got the Eyrie, you've got the Twins (which seems like the most pointless castle ever in it's placement on the map) etc. etc.  All this works fine for the story, it doesn't bother me in that aspect at all, but as a map it's garbage, GARBAGE.   :Razz: 

As for being harsh or not, I feel that onces something is established and published there is no reason to treat it with kid gloves anymore, my like or dislike ain't going to change a thing, but it seems to me there is no reason not to treat it with honest feelings, because at this point it is an object of discussion, not something seeking to be an object of discussion.

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## Azélor

Yes, the Twins are easy to circumvent but extremely well fortified. 
On the opposite, Moat Cailin is hard to avoid but nobody cares about maintenance. 

There are a lot of inconsistency in Westeros. 
The one that bothers me the most in probably the North.
You have quite a lot of people living up there, able to feed themselves in a region were it snows even in the middle of summer. 
And how can the trees grow in the land of eternal winter?
That sort of things.

But the one thing GRRM does well is the story and political patchwork.

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## Naima

Well apparently a Got themed map is not very welcome... strange couse I thought everyone would like to have a got map in their portfolio  :Very Happy:  ... but may be I just like it too much  :Razz:  .

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## Falconius

> Well apparently a Got themed map is not very welcome... strange couse I thought everyone would like to have a got map in their portfolio  ... but may be I just like it too much  .


For me it's not because I don't like the maps but because it's too specific as I said in the beginning.  I feel like I'd have to read the books again which I haven't read in ages in order to come up to speed again.  I feel like basing them off the show wouldn't be right, at least in my case because as ever the show has really altered from what I originally imagined (and forever replaced all the characters I had in my head, but in most cases the casting is so well done I don't mind).

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## Azélor

Maybe the challenge could be about mapping a fantasy universe, not this one in particular.

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## Kellerica

I think some variations of that idea have been done a few times (I think there was a "map a novel" type of challenge not too long ago?), but yeah, it could work. I still don't know if I personally wanted to participate, since I have already mapped the pretty much only fantasy world that I love enough to bother (Le Guin's Earthsea), but it might be a bit more inclusive to non-GOT-fans and less specific, as Falc said.

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