# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Dungeon/Subterranean Mapping >  Flagstones - What do you think?

## damonjynx

With my little Dungeon Tile project I'm using the light marble pattern for the floors with a grid. I remember looking at Torstan's excellent mini-tut on flagstones, and thought would they not be better? So I had a go at making some...

I mucked around for a bit (make that a couple of hours...I need to get a life!) and created this on a parchment style background. Thoughts? Would this make an OK pattern do you think?

----------


## Mouse

That's a good idea, but I find the mortar a little blank without any texture.  Have you thought of setting the layer the mortar is on to either a multiply or an overlay mode and making it darker - and slightly transparent (if you are using multiply)?  That way it would pick up the underlying texture of the parchment.

----------


## damonjynx

> That's a good idea, but I find the mortar a little blank without any texture.  Have you thought of setting the layer the mortar is on to either a multiply or an overlay mode and making it darker - and slightly transparent (if you are using multiply)?  That way it would pick up the underlying texture of the parchment.


Hi Mouse,

Well, this time, the mortar isn't on a separate layer and is part of the shading for the actual flagstones layer (let this be a lesson to the new kids on the block!) which is set to either one of the burn modes or multiply. Maybe it isn't picking up the texture because it's too dark? the tiles themselves did?  The scale sample is what the tiles actually look like with the background layer turned off. Next time I do them I could certainly try putting the mortar on a different layer to make it have a bit more texture. 

I'm also not 100% happy with the intersecting corners, they're a little too uniform. I might also make them bigger, I'm not sure if I like having 4 tiles to a 5ft square...

Ideally, once I've gotten these to a satisfactory point I'd like to make them a pattern -  I don't want to be rendering individual flagstones for each dungeon tile - way, way. too much time and effort. And as I posted above, I need to get a life! Between Cubs,  playing RPG's and mucking around with my maps, my wife, God bless her, would like me to spend some quality time with her instead of being either out or stuck at the computer for hours on end.

----------


## Mouse

Flagstones come in all different sizes, but in the UK paving stones (closely related but standardised for the surfacing of pavements/sidewalks) are about 3'x2', so flagstones that are 5' square would be a bit large by our standards.  Many I've seen in old castles are much smaller than a paving slab, and they're not generally all that regular at all if you're talking about medieval ones.  I once sat in a ruined tower room trying to paint the view out through the window slot for an art exam piece, and looking at the floor while I was there it looked very much like the largest ones had been laid first, while the rest were cut to size to fit around them.

----------


## damonjynx

Hmmm, thanks for the quick reply Mouse. What you describe re the castle floor is like what we call over here, "crazy paving" don't know if that's a universal term, generally used in landscaping but a similar process, that's actually not a bad idea. For the print version, if I did them like that, I would need to put a grid over the top... and it's much harder to make a pattern.

Flying conundrums, what's a boy to do! 

I think for the dungeon tile project, I'll stick with how I'm doing them, it's quicker, far easier and very uniform. However, for specific dungeon/castle maps, The Fork'n'Spoon Inn, for example (haven't drawn it yet!), that is an entirely different kettle of sardines!

----------


## Mouse

Oh.

I just did you a seamless texture - but if you don't want it someone else might  :Smile: 



I have no idea how large/small these will look if you open them in your battlemap, but I'm hoping that if anyone wants them they can be scaled to suit  :Smile: 

EDIT: if you DO want them, I can make them in all different kinds of colours and texures - free, use for private or commercial - like all my shared textures  :Wink:

----------


## damonjynx

Thanks Sue, you are a dead-set treasure! I'll give it a go when I get some free time! Did you just make it, in like 5 minutes or did you have it lying around? If you just made it up, you're a flaming genius! That would take me hours...

If you could re-post with a light-ish grey tones (so they can be printed more easily) that would be AWESOME!

B.T.W.: Do you like the name of the inn :Smile:  It's in the town of Nevermind! 

NPC: " Where you headed?"
PC: "Nevermind."
NPC: " Just asking, no need to be rude!"

----------


## Mouse

LOL!

We actually have a town called Ware in the UK.  You can imagine the conversations I used to have when people stopped to ask for directions to any other place nearby.  

Yes - I made it in about 5 minutes with an app called Genetica.  Its really easy to do textures like that.

I'll do a few more for you to choose from, and put them in my album (link below)  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Just better check - is this what you mean by light grey?

----------


## damonjynx

> Just better check - is this what you mean by light grey?


Perfection on a tile!

BTW: do you go to sleep over there, or are you nocturnal?

----------


## Mouse

Ok then.  I was looking for a bit of light therapy, so I'll make a few more...

I'm an insomniac, but with a bit of luck this tile exercise will give my brain a work out, and I'll be able to sleep then  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

These may not be completely satisfactory, but I can alter them if you like







Things that can be changed very easily:

Tone and contrast of the stoneShade of the mortar/contrast of the mortar with the stoneSharpness of the stone (blur is dead easy without blurring the mortar)Edge of block sharpness (degree of bevel and smoothness etc)

Have a play and see what you like.

I am actually going to try and go to bed now, so I might not be around to alter them tonight, but I can do them tomorrow if necessary  :Smile:

----------


## damonjynx

Thanks heaps Sue. You're a legend!

----------


## Mouse

Thank you  :Smile: 

I'm 'working blind' here because I'm not really a battle mapper, and I've certainly never done this sort of thing before, so I am expecting a few adjustments when you've had time to have a play with them a bit  :Wink:

----------


## damonjynx

> Thank you 
> 
> I'm 'working blind' here because I'm not really a battle mapper, and I've certainly never done this sort of thing before, so I am expecting a few adjustments when you've had time to have a play with them a bit


Hi Mouse,

Here's a quick sample, with & without grid. I had to scale your texture down to 4" square @ 100PPI.

Looks pretty good, the sample was made on a parchment background.

----------


## damonjynx

Here's another one with the grid. I like the walls better on this one more than the ones above...I think we have a winner!

----------


## Mouse

I'm... still around  :Smile: 

Oops!  Looks like you could do with one that isn't distorted, so you don't have to use a grid?

I don't know anything about Dundjinni at all.  Are there layers?  Can you use blend modes?  Just asking, because it would make sense to use a darker texture in overlay mode if you want to blend it with the parchment.

----------


## damonjynx

> I'm... still around 
> 
> Oops!  Looks like you could do with one that isn't distorted, so you don't have to use a grid?


 Not at all Sue, when I produce the tiles I'll do so without the grids and just make it obvious there are 4 tiles to a 5ft square, like I did with my example. The grid on this is just me playing around and what it would look like in VTT world with grids switched on.




> I don't know anything about Dundjinni at all.  Are there layers?  Can you use blend modes?  Just asking, because it would make sense to use a darker texture in overlay mode if you want to blend it with the parchment.


 Just as well, I'm not using Dundjinni, just good ol' PS CS4 :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Do you think it would look even better with straight mortar lines, like this one?



(sorry - same size - conversions leave me dumbfounded at this time in the early morning)

EDIT: believe it or not the texture is the same.  Taking the distort off the tiles also altered the texture.  I've learned something new about my software tonight!  LOL!

----------


## flyenemu

Mouse,

     Your work is as beautiful as it is expedient! I look forward to seeing more of your work when time allows. 

Damonjynx,

     Per your request I have reviewed your work on the flagstone pattern. The idea of creating a more realistic look for the floor is quite appealing, however I find it quite hard to read where one square ends and another begins. When I am sitting behind a screen, I ensure ALL my maps (excluding regional overworld maps which are done in hex) with 5' squares. When I encounter a map with 10' scale and I want to incorporate into a game I often times have a bit of trouble converting it EVEN though I am well aware it is in a different scale. My mind says "one square=5'x5'", and I can see myself doing the same with  your overlay. This may quite possibly be a view unique to me, and I understand other art styles. Even with Mouse's lighter mortar I find my eyes reverting back to that way of thinking. If I may offer an alternative approach, You could look at skewing the pattern 45deg. so the pattern doesn't line up with the battle grid. This may not be as beautiful or realistic, but it would offer a bit more legibility.  

     With regards to the discussion on location names: I simply love irregular, whimsical, or otherwise pun-ny names. I might just need to create a Halfling run tavern with the same name in my world! When I started creating my kingdom of mankind (to be one of my first maps to share on here when I have the time) I had trouble coming up with names... unlike my wife who created the farm"Neutdroogs" on one of her sim-like games which only crop was poppy flowers. So, as an avid Pink Floyd fan, I named my king Pink of the house of Floyd, the capital is known as "WhiteWall", and the major outlying cities are: Div'Ell (Division Bell), Darsidomon(Dark Side of the Moon), and M'Lor(A Momentary Laps of Reason). Each city has a secret based off the albums, and the small farming communities around each major town are named similarly after songs within the album. Within the same campaign, my group (knowing I am a big fan of Vecna) was on the lookout for Vecna's avatar, and so I made the local baron have the same mannerisms of the God of Secrets (even an eye patch and hook). His name was/is Iamn Ancevto(I am not Vecna). Thought I would share, even though my contribution is lacking in comedic value.  :Smile:  I'll need to consult with you on names next time I am building!

----------


## LordEntrails

I have to agree, if you are looking to use this for a battle map with a 5ft grid, then either the tiles need to be 5ft square, or you should come up with something non-square that repeats every 5 feet. You could come up with a rectangular pattern that repeats every 5 feet. Might be a bit tedious or repetative though. But I think that would make play-ability (use as a battle map) much better.

I think if you search 12x24 tile patterns you will find some that repeat. Though you could also use a repeating pattern of triangles or other shapes too.

----------


## flyenemu

> I have to agree, if you are looking to use this for a battle map with a 5ft grid, then either the tiles need to be 5ft square, or you should come up with something non-square that repeats every 5 feet. You could come up with a rectangular pattern that repeats every 5 feet. Might be a bit tedious or repetative though. But I think that would make play-ability (use as a battle map) much better.
> 
> I think if you search 12x24 tile patterns you will find some that repeat. Though you could also use a repeating pattern of triangles or other shapes too.


Oooh! I like the idea of triangles or even hexagons(*envisions a recreation of the Temple of Bel-Shamharoth from the Colour of Magic)! Could also make for some very interesting traps or puzzles too... Great idea LordEntrails!

----------


## Mouse

Hi flyenemu  :Smile: 

I really don't know the first thing about battle tiles.  I've only just known about what the word means in the last 24 hours - so thank you for your kind compliment  :Smile: 

Now that I'm all curious, please could you tell me which of these would be suitable patterns?

(There are also loads of weave patterns not shown here)



I'm working on both challenges at the moment, so I don't think I will have any time to do anything about it for a couple of weeks at least, but when I do, I'd like to know which ones are worth working with.  Thank you  :Smile:

----------


## flyenemu

> Hi flyenemu 
> 
> I really don't know the first thing about battle tiles.  I've only just known about what the word means in the last 24 hours - so thank you for your kind compliment 
> 
> Now that I'm all curious, please could you tell me which of these would be suitable patterns?
> 
> (There are also loads of weave patterns not shown here)
> 
> 
> ...


Mouse,

    You are quite welcome, though I am only a humble observer offering my bias perspective. Before I review your image set, I would like to offer a bit of "Illusions 101" as reported by the BBC: http://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/st...ick-your-mind/ . It is a historical account of mankind's rudimentary  understanding of optical illusions. The relevance to this topic is the mind understands what a grid is supposed to look like, and uses horizontal and vertical visual cues to understand what is displayed beyond the direct focus of where your eye is looking. So, any pattern that has similar cues would distort the way we see/understand the pattern of a grid. What this boils down to is you want to avoid patterns that have similar color, orientation, or other visual cues as a standard square grid... or at least that is my understanding of how this all works. I have a degree in criminal law, which has nothing to do with... this.

Based off my limited understanding I would think the following would be the best to work with: Big and Small 1&2, Byzantine 2, Cells, Centerpiece, Diamonds 2, Hexagons, Hopscotch, Overlap 1&2, Six Sided, Strange, Strips & Strips 6, Tear Drops, and Techno. Again, perhaps someone with a better grasp on art could offer a better opinion, but that is my best stab at it with what I know at the moment. I will say, however, whatever pattern you decide to go with, you will want to make sure it is not competing with the grid for attention. The last thing you want is to make a beautiful texture for a floor, and have the grid get lost in the artwork. At the end of the day, a battle map is a balancing act between art and functionality; not enough art, and you lack immersion, too much art, and you lose functionality. I do hope this was helpful to someone. Good luck!  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Thank you very much for taking the time to have a look at the patterns, flyenemu  :Smile: 

I will take all this on board and think about it while I am working on my challenge maps.

As I understand it you are thinking about the patterns _within_ each 5' square, rather than a pattern to replace the 5' squares?  

I had a look at some of the battle tiles available on RPG now, and it seems that they normally come with accessories such as tables and chairs and things lying on the floor - everything from barrels to blood stained daggers?  I wouldn't be doing those - just the basic floor patterns.  But then - this is a community of mappers, so I imagine that a dungeon mapper would only really want the floor pattern as a basic background for a map, and not all those other things as well.

Sorry for the thread hijack, Damonjynx!

----------


## damonjynx

Perfectly fine Sue. Re the issue of patterns competing with the grid, I really get flyenemu & LordEntrails comments. Whenever I'm drawing at the table on a dry-erase mat or similar I inevitably make mistakes when the scale is NOT 1square = 5ft. Which is why I initially went with a fairly neutral floor. Re the other questions on this thread and the Dungeon tiles one:

I don't intend to produce any assets. There are far too many more talented folk than I that do such things. Both Bogie & Torstan (aka Jonathon Roberts) have excellent sets available for free download for Mon-commercial use, not to mention those available on the Roll20 or Maptool market places.

Re Doors, my intention was to leave obvious "gaps" for doors and the let DM's use whatever types of doors they fancy. I could always make up some basic wooden, stone and false walls tiles
All of my tiles are being produced @ 100ppi with 1" grids.

Thanks very much for the feedback and assistance folks, I really appreciate your input. I think for the random tile project I'll stick with the original flooring and use  Mouse's tiles and purpose drawn flagstones for other pieces or as feature floors

----------


## Bogie

Great floor tiles Mouse.  Thanks for sharing.

----------


## Mouse

Thanks Bogie  :Smile:  

I can make any number of variations, so I'll do a few more and upload them to a separate texture album of their own after I've finished both my Challenge maps  :Wink:

----------


## flyenemu

Mouse,

It is my pleasure! I enjoy offering my insight wherever welcome. Re. Pattern: Yes, the pattern should be the texture of the floor layer that is independent of the 5’ grid overlay. The grid is often understood as not seen in game, and thus the dungeon often lacks 5’ tile marks for the characters to use. Re. other battle maps: The tables, and other misc. stuff is often to help give some further immersion, and often times is more of a pain to work with. 

Damonjynx,

I am happy to lean my view on 1square=5’ and the troubles it causes me while mapping are not unique! This makes me feel a bit more welcome to criticize maps with 10’ squares on dungeon maps. I think a blank or less detailed floor tile would be most beneficial for your project, and your decision to omit decorations or other interior objects is also rather wise. I will continue to follow your project on here and on your Dungeon Tiles thread!

----------

