# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Writing, Stories, Linguistics, Toponymy and other wordy stuff ! >  What am I actually naming?

## Sarithus

Hello Guild. I still seem to have problems with place names. Not the names themselves, but what it is that I'm actually naming. 

My maps are in a Tolkien style and because the map of Middle Earth has varying sizes of place names I still feel the need to think about _my_ place names in terms of scale and size.

*I name my maps like this:
Continent > Countries > Regions > Mountains & Rivers & Lakes etc.* 

I understand naming the continent and countries as that's pretty simple. I also understand naming Mountains and Rivers, but it's the smaller names which trip me up.

To me, GONDOR, ERIADOR, ARNOR AND MORDOR are countries on the continent of Middle Earth. Rhovanion in the East being one massive country.

So on my Ulthui map  Tulgreyson, Thyandul. New Saranai and other names of the same size are countries. 

However, things get somewhat confused when I have established the countries. I don't know how many regions to include. (As a side note it seems odd that there are such small things as bridges included in the map of Middle Earth, but that could just be story based)

Take the country of Gondor. Inside of Gondor is Ithilien which is apparently just a 'region'. The word region doesn't really help me understand what it is.

But I've done the same thing on Ulthui. In Thyandul I have regions (smaller names) called Althari, Adrinados and Harthurin but if I'm being honest I just put those there so I can fill up the map. I don't actually know what they are except the vague term of regions in a country.

So how do you decide what it is your naming?

Thanks.

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## Chick

Names are made up by the inhabitants of a place.  Normally, things that have names have them because the local people need to refer them to specifically.  Cartographers just put those names on a map.

I'll give you an analogy ... in English, there are three main words for when it is snowing .... flurries, snow, blizzard.  In Eskimo, there are 23 words for snowfalls, because (according to my linguistics professor), when you live where snow is so important to life, you need to describe the variations more precisely.

In naming places on a map, you name them as precisely as is needed to distinguish the important ones.  In one area of the map, you may name things in a lot more detail than in another simply because more people live there and need to have the names to discuss what they need to discuss.  In New York City, you need a lot more depth of naming than in East Podunk, North Dakota.

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## Sarithus

Thanks for the reply, but that doesn't really solve the problem of what it is that I'm naming. I understand that certain areas will have more names than others, but like my posts says, often I have a hard time deciding on what it is those names actually are. 'Regions' doesn't sit well with me. Maybe the issues come from always doing continent maps. I think I could get my head round country maps more easily

Perhaps I'm over-thinking things.

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## Larb

It sounds like you are doing a top-down approach. Have you tried looking at it from the bottom up?

So for example imagine a village in one of your countries. What would they call the local region and how big is that "region" to them? Does it stop at the big river to the west and then beyond that, they call it something else? And is the region they live in important enough to be named on a map by those ruling over them? (like if they are a prosperous region known for their vineyards they might be worth noting on a map but if it's just a scattered bunch of small farming communities - perhaps not so much). Do they speak a different language or a dialect several towns and villages down the road? If so they will be called something else and so will the area they live in.

You could try approaching it like that.

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## Falconius

Names are specific to unique things.  If you are using them as place holders in absentia of unique things, it is no wonder stuff gets confusing.  I'd recommend before plopping down names decide what specific things they are naming, otherwise leave them off the map.

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## Larb

Oh also regions (especially in europe) can often get their name from the people who migrated into them ie: Burgundians, Danes, Franks, Lombards, Geats, West Saxons, etc.

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## Sarithus

How do you guys name in regards to language? If you have a map of a continent (with more than one country) is each 'region' name of a different language or one common tongue?

I had thought that my continent of Ulthui, with many different countries in it, was made by someone from Thyandul and that all the place names where in the language of that country and that Egura for example wold be called something different to the people that live in Egura. Though Ulthui is part of the Turinath Empire and so I suppose it could all be one common language, but I'm not sure how realistic that is.

I need to get this sorted out before I move onto naming my other continent of Saranai in the same world as Ulthui, but this thread has just confused me more.  :Confused: 

Edit: I think something that I might not be doing enough is naming towns. I know this is modern vs fantasy but looking at google maps region names aren't so much a thing and most of the names are for towns.

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## Chick

What Larb said is like what I was trying to say .... name things according to what the people who live there would name them (or not).

As for the language, a map language should be that of the reader/user, not the local inhabitants (unless the language plays a role in the story or plot, such as the moon runes on Bilbo's map).

For yourself, just call them whatever you want ... region, area, realm, district, section, expanse, territory, zone, locality, state, country, borough, province, district, invent your own word ... it really doesn't matter at all as long you know what you mean by it.

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## J.Edward

Hey Sarithus. After you said about Google maps and regions, it got me thinking. What is the purpose of your map? 
What I mean is - most maps are produced for a specific reason or viewer. Google maps is to help people with directions so 'regions' aren't really a strong relevant thing.
If you don't have a strong purpose for your map maybe that is giving you some trouble. 
When I approach doing a map, i'm usually thinking about what I'm trying to show most - the lay of the land, or cities, or political regions, or some such.
Somethings are just secondary to the main purpose of the map, those things usually get put in smaller text. The main things get larger text.

I don't know if that's helpful at all.
I would agree that the nation making the map is the one that determines the language of the map, generally speaking. And if the audience for the map speaks the language of Thyandul then the map would be written in the language of Thyandul.

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## Sarithus

Sarturus is just a created world for my own bits of lore and sotry and so on Ulthui I suppose the point is just to show a general layout and where important or note-worthy places are. 

I guess I need to decide firstly if Saranai, the other continent, is a map made by a country in Ulthui, or made by/for someone in a country in Saranai.

Could I ask, when you guys look at the map of Ulthui, do the names work for you? Does it make sense? Prior to my rambling in this thread, what would you have thought Thyandul was and what would you have thought Adrinados was?

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## J.Edward

Looking back at the map I would have assumed it was a region, maybe a country.
I think I sort of see the problem, or a problem. The text seems like it's just there... not really tied to any particular land or feature or anything.
Some people will do things like - land of Erethos, realm of Estra, kingdom of Thyandul, Alterom region, etc.
The descriptive word helps say what that text means.

With the Ulthui map the text kind of floats there without being obvious what it's referring to.

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## Sarithus

> Looking back at the map I would have assumed it was a region, maybe a country.
> I think I sort of see the problem, or a problem. The text seems like it's just there... not really tied to any particular land or feature or anything.
> Some people will do things like - land of Erethos, realm of Estra, kingdom of Thyandul, Alterom region, etc.
> The descriptive word helps say what that text means.
> 
> With the Ulthui map the text kind of floats there without being obvious what it's referring to.


I suppose that is part of the issue. But that's what the map of middle earth looks like to me. The region of Minhiriath floats within what I assume is the boundary of the country (larger name, larger area) Eriador.
http://www.tolkien.co.uk/file/IfbTdA...8c691eb83d.jpg

Evidently I need to move away from Tolkien maps if it's confusing.

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## J.Edward

Yeah, I can see what you mean there. The only thing I can say regarding Tolkien's vs your own is that with Tolkien's the regions are bounded more by land features [river, hills, forest] and yours don't have that. It doesn't mean yours must have that but it seems to be what makes it seem like they are floating.
The problem seems to be with regions/countries that are further inland and have no specific land features that bound them or are connected to them.

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## Midgardsormr

The map doesn't exist independent of the people who will use it. If the people who are looking at the map know what Fohn is, then there's no reason to call it County Fohn or the Realm of Fohn. That information is already inherent in the word. We don't have to call something the Nation of France on a map because most people already know that France is a nation. Likewise, on Tolkien's map, he didn't bother saying what Rhovanion or Eriador were because the people who used the map already knew that Rhovanion was all the land east of the Misty Mountains and west of the Sea of Rhun, encompassing several political entities, but being more a geographic and historical description. These words are similar to our terms "Asia Minor" or "the Amazon." 

On Tolkien's map the geographic regions were more important than national labels because there were few strong kingdoms at the time the map was made. Rhudaur was barely a kingdom, and Arnor had been reduced to a few wandering woodsmen. Rhovanion had a few minor strongholds of civilization, but the elves of Mirkwood and Lorien, as well as the dwarves of the Iron Hills, were insular, Laketown was merely a small city-state, and Smaug had pretty well burned out the rest of the kingdoms in the area.

So it comes down to the usage of the map. If it's for your own reference and you don't have a strong feeling for what's a geographic label and what's a kingdom, then you should probably include that kind of information on the map. Maybe add some political borders so you can see exactly what areas the different nations encompass, and that will also help geographic regions to stand out, since their labels will cross those borders.

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## J.Edward

Midgard, my suggestion was just related to the question. If he wants to write a book and inform people what the map means via prose [as Tolkien did] so be it. 
But if a map is just set in front of an observer with no info or context then things like nation, realm, blah blah can be helpful for people to know what the names are for. 
That was all I was meaning by that suggestion. 
I don't have a personal preference for how he does it. 
Whatever works for him to convey what he wants to convey.  :Wink:

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## Midgardsormr

I was actually agreeing with you, only in reverse. Saying why we don't see that on Tolkien's map or maps of the real world, but we do on maps where we don't have that background information already in our heads.

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## J.Edward

Ah, got it.  :Razz:

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## Azélor

> How do you guys name in regards to language? If you have a map of a continent (with more than one country) is each 'region' name of a different language or one common tongue?
> 
> I had thought that my continent of Ulthui, with many different countries in it, was made by someone from Thyandul and that all the place names where in the language of that country and that Egura for example wold be called something different to the people that live in Egura. Though Ulthui is part of the Turinath Empire and so I suppose it could all be one common language, but I'm not sure how realistic that is.
> 
> I need to get this sorted out before I move onto naming my other continent of Saranai in the same world as Ulthui, but this thread has just confused me more. 
> 
> Edit: I think something that I might not be doing enough is naming towns. I know this is modern vs fantasy but looking at google maps region names aren't so much a thing and most of the names are for towns.



I name things according to the local culture, the official name using the same script. I tend to find a culture similar to the one I want in that area and take the name accordingly. It can have a real signification or it just sound similar. Some of these names are not definitive but if I decide to keep them, they will be fine. This gets more complicated for places like oceans/mountain ranges since they might have multiple names. Ideally it would be named according to the dominant culture in the area. It's also possible to take a more standard name like: Eastern sea. Even then, not everyone think it's in the east...

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## Azélor

About names in Google Earth: I don't know where you are looking but Canadian provinces and American states do appear on the maps. It must be something in the program that hides them if there is a lot cities. Large divisions like Scotland and Wales also appear on the map but most of UK administrative divisions are hidden because Google prefer to display the cities.

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## fabio p

You have to consider that place names reflect very complex realities.
Toponomastics is not necessarily simple because of the often incredibly complex underlying reality stratified by history. For example, you can have the name of a region, which is also the name of a nation: take the example of Macedonia: it is a region of Greece, and it is also a slavic nation north of the greek border; where Macedonia begins and where it ends, it’s a source of bitter debates between Macedonians and Greeks, not to mention that the Greeks would want to be the only ones that can boast of the name "Macedonia", for the inhabitants of the region in northern Greece, while disputing the name of “Macedonia” to the Republic of Macedonia.
This is just one example.

So, as almost everyone has observed, to give names to places, you have to understand who is reading the map, what is the point of view you prefer to fulfill. If you draw a map of the Balkans for a Greek, rather than for a resident of the Republic of Macedonia, you can use a different name placing approach as appropriate; to a “ neutral” third person you could have yet another approach.

Then there is the level of depth: have you to illustrate the geographical features of a map? or is this a political map or a mixed political-geographical map that you are drawing? Or have you to explain to a student the complex layering of cultures that resides in the portion of the world that you're drawing? Or are you preparing the map for a general who is starting a military campaign? The variables are varied (almost limitless), and based on these multiple variables you will choose how to name places and which place to name.

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## Eld

To me Thyandul looks like a state name and Adrinados like the name of a region.

For myself I distinguish state names and region names as follows: States are political things with borders (or not) and ruler(s). They are defined by the head of the state as "the territory I rule".
Regions are defined as geographically or cultural parts of land. So a region could be the "land between river a and forest b and coast c". Or it could be the "land where we speak language D". That means that a region is not a political thing. So a region could be divided amongst states. That's the way I think of regions and States. Of course there are sub-levels to states as counties and provinces and so on, just as regions could belong to a big one and be divided into smaller ones.

I read the names Thyandul and Adrinados in that way, Thyandul as political and Adrinados as geographical/cultural. Yet I miss borders on your map. To me it's hard to figure out how big the states are and what shapes they have, if there are no borders. I would also suggest to use different fonts for state names and region names so one could distinguish them easier.

As I work on my own fantasy world, Nerrac, I know how hard it could be to come up with good names. That's the reason why naming areas and places on my maps is such a slow process.
For my continental map I decided that the map was produced by members of a university and so the language of the names is generally the one of the country the university is placed in. I only go for "foreign" names if the university-language has no name for the place. This is mostly the case for places far away where contact is rare.

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## Azélor

Unless you have knowledge of the language used to make the name, saying that x is the name of a province or y is the name of a region is completely subjective.

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## Ninkasi

I think it might help to think a bit about the history of how the regions or provinces developed in your world.

Say it's something like England -- let's take examples like Essex and Northumberland. Originally, these areas were ruled by the kings of Wessex and Northumbria. Over time, these kingdoms were absorbed into a larger Kingdom of England, but remained distinct as administrative regions ruled by Earls, who were, at least theoretically, descended from the original kings. As the country's political system modernized, Earls began to have less of a role and the areas developed into modern counties, administered by county officials. That's where many county names come from in England.

So the question is this: Who originally consolidated and named this region? Who were they ruling -- was it a group of people they led there that shared their ethnic background, or did they mostly conquer an existing people and add this to their other territories, which would leave preexisting naming conventions for towns and geographic features intact? Does the political institution built by the person who named this region still exist in some form? Has it been absorbed by a larger power? If so is it an administrative sub-region, or did the larger power completely eliminate any vestiges of the original entity? Or did that once-great power crumble, leaving a power vacuum that hasn't been filled?

I don't know how far you've thought through your world, but I personally like having these kinds of answers to help me with the naming. This can also help you identify your ethnic subgroups and migration patterns, which can guide you to place name conventions (suffixes denoting cities and the like).

All that being said, I agree with your assessment that you're lacking in cities, and I agree with other commenters that without borders, natural or otherwise, many of your subregion names look arbitrarily placed.

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## vaiyt

I'd like to add my two cents to this old topic, in case there's someone like me reading dead discussions. 

Maps are always made for someone. They should contain the labels that are important for the (real or in-character) map-maker and the (real or in-character) intended audience. To take the LOTR example, Ithilien is labeled along with Gondor and Rohan because it's very important to the plot, and the function of that map is to illustrate the book's story.

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