# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Regional/World Mapping >  Ysi Earth world map II

## Naeddyr

Longtimenosee.

Recently I got the mapping bug again, so I decided to *this time* get some *climates* done (may Athë succour my suffering). I also did some modifications of my old base map, to make it seem more interesting and mappy, mostly by adding more geography.


(equirectangular, mountains are only approximate)

I realise that there's a lot of archipelago here. What can I say. Did you know that the Archipelago Sea off the coast of Finland is the largest archipelago in the world (if you count by islands)? It's probably true.

Like the last map I made, this one will be in-character. It will use a round azimuthal equal area projection (not the more old-timey stereographic as last time), which will be used to depict two hemispheres. The two half-globes will be arranged like this:



The edges will meet at the South Pole, instead of the sides, which means that the western hemisphere (which contains the northern continent) will be upside down, rotated 180 degrees. Here's a GIF to illustrate the logic:



I don't *think* anyone else has done it this way. It adds a bit of fantasy flavah to the whole thing.

The end result should be yet another printed or handwrought-looking map, so the mountains won't remain like the bumpmapped ones in the above maps, but will be drawn by hand, and there will be very little shading, and more old-timey dithering. I'm thinking of doing a variation of fantasymap mountains using long strings of mountains instead of single peak brushes (much like the "realistic" mountains at http://www.brodt.dk/peter/mount.html ). I will also endeavour to show some climate stuff by drawing appropriate flora and fauna, and I will also add some fantastical beasts onto it, including gryphon-like quadraped and feathered members of an animal family related birds, and four-horned ungulates. The old rivers (though well-policed) weren't based on any climate patterns, so those'll be remade.

On the sides there will be two astronomical maps: on the left side, three circles radiating from the middle, on which lie the three Moons of Ysi Earth, and on the right (to the East), a Tychonian model of the Ysi Sun, with the diverse planets that orbit it.

The map will either have two compass roses, or one combined compass rose looking like a Lorraine cross.

I'm making this topic before starting on the actual mapping part, and I will have to do the climates first. First will come stuff that'll be mostly done with projection converters, Inkscape and mouse, and when I get back to the City from the weekend, I will also have access to my tablet if I'm ready to draw mountains and foliage.

----------


## ravells

I really like the presentation. Is this done with FT?

----------


## Naeddyr

> I really like the presentation. Is this done with FT?


FractalTerrains? No, the basic map above (the grey one) was completely created by hand, originally making an outline with pen and paper, including rough tectonics (a year or two ago, for the first Ysi Map). The mountains were drawn by hand (mostly sketchy scribbling) which looks great if you emboss it.

(I use GIMP to modify the basic map, and then usually import it into G-Projector to convert it into other projections (or flex projector if it's a projection there), which is imported into inkscape to be vectorised and modified and layouted, which is then imported yet again into GIMP to make it pretty. But you should know this already if you've read my tutorial, which you _totally_ have.)

----------


## Ascension

Good to see ya back and mapping again since I love the style.

----------


## Naeddyr

> I love the style.



Then you'll be happy to know there'll be even more of it!

----------


## hunab.cu

Wow! 

I always had lots of trouble with projections, and now... Naeddyr, you're my saviour. G.projector and Flex Projector are great. I got quite amazed by what can be done using them. 

And the maps of yours - they are really different from what I've seen here. Looking forward to seeing more of your work!

----------


## Naeddyr

> Wow! 
> 
> I always had lots of trouble with projections, and now... Naeddyr, you're my saviour. G.projector and Flex Projector are great. I got quite amazed by what can be done using them.


The new 1.2 version of G.projector is quite buggy, and you can't actually fiddle with the map projection parameters! Luckily, I have an older version at hand, which I've uploaded to http://cardua.googlepages.com/GProjectorWinold.zip until there's a bugfix version available.

----------


## Flaterectomy

I also downloaded G.projector, and was perplexed at how it wouldn't let me alter the coordinates. So thanks for uploading that older version!  :Very Happy: 

Your map is looking very nice so far, I really like the shapes and curves of the continents. Looking forward to seeing you develop it!

And again, thanks for the _functioning_ copy of G.projector.  :Very Happy:

----------


## hunab.cu

> Luckily, I have an older version at hand, which I've uploaded to http://cardua.googlepages.com/GProjectorWinold.zip until there's a bugfix version available.


It seems like Windows version... could you have Linux version or system-neutral Java archive?

Cheers

----------


## Naeddyr

> It seems like Windows version... could you have Linux version or system-neutral Java archive?
> 
> Cheers


I'm sorry to say I don't.

BUT

I've been investigating this.

Turns out, the Windows version has a JAR file in its /jars/ subfolder that is exactly the same size, bytewise, as the JAR in the Generic version (I checked the new 1.2 version, but it should hold true for old ones too).

SO, the windows version seems to contain the generic version!

What a laugh, eh! Ha ha ha ha.  :Laughing: 




_what is this foolishness_  :Mad: 


EDIT:

Taking a chance to post some stuff from the world creation phase of the map (still in progress for the climate). This is independent from Karro's stuff, and some of it is very old (the tectonics are from the first map, etc), I'm just retrying my hand at the climate. If you offer advice on the science, please note that currently I am only giving two and a half rat's asses of effort for this thing, because I've cried myself to sleep with this stuff enough.

Old tectonics:



Pressure balts for January and July:




Winds:




Ocean currents:



Rain:




Climate based on the Climate Cookbook.

----------


## Karro

I give this +2 1/2 additional rats' arses of approval, and I'll throw in an elephant's arse in the bargain.  The maps look good, and the work you've done in figuring out the functioning parts look nice.  Time well-spent, IMO.

----------


## Korba

Great work so far Naeddyr and thanks for the great link to the Climate Cookbook, wish i had known about that one before i started  :Smile: 

Rep'd

Korba

----------


## hunab.cu

Naeddyr, I came to naive belief that you know all the necessary software and websites for sensible worldbuilding and cartography  :Wink: 
First Flex Projector and G.Projector, now Climate Cookbook... what else aces do you keep in your sleeve?

----------


## Naeddyr

> Naeddyr, I came to naive belief that you know all the necessary software and websites for sensible worldbuilding and cartography 
> First Flex Projector and G.Projector, now Climate Cookbook... what else aces do you keep in your sleeve?




Tools
Writing:
yWriter, novel-writing tool
Darkroom style text-editor
Textroom, open-source alternative to above

Maybe you'll like Freemind, a mind-mapping tool. Personally, I like more flowcharty styles, with freer association, while Freemind is a strictly hierarchical thing.


I'll go through my favourites. Man, some of these I haven't even read. It's been years since I went through my favourites properly. Many years.
Zompist's Language Construction Kit
Nyrath's Atomic Rocket pages and stuff
Flags of the World
Creating An Earthlike Planet, parent-page to the Cookbook
The WHKMLA historical atlas
Medieval Technology Timeline
A picture of a huge isopod
Le Sage's Theory of Gravitation
Development of the Chemical Symbols
A list of Human Universals, including MAGIC and SEXUAL REGULATION INCLUDES INCEST PREVENTATION
Chinese Etymological online dictionary
Everything about herbs and spices
Omniglot, writing systems and script online
ZEALANDIA THE CONTINENT
ANIMATED PICTURES OF ENGLINES HUZZAH
CATEGORY: Obsolete scientific theories
Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy

Books to read:

What Does A Martian Look Like despite its US-side title (the original was Evolving the Alien) is a good book on speculation on how far are the borders of life, what kind of things are possible to evolve, etc.
Meme Machine, a basic work on memetics.
Any book on evolution.
Discarded Science, Ideas That Seemed Good At The Time

etc. etc.

NOW STOP PRAISING ME FOR HAVING COOL STUFF THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ME MAP ME MAP ME MAAAAAP  :Crying or Very sad:

----------


## Karro

> [snip]goodies[/snip]
> NOW STOP PRAISING ME FOR HAVING COOL STUFF THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ME MAP ME MAP ME MAAAAAP


I'd rep you for those goodies, but I'm afraid I can't, just yet.  In particular, I'm going to have to check out the usability of yWriter and Freemind as compliments to a tool I use: ConnectedText, which isn't free but is pretty dang cheap (like $30), and has proved pretty useful to me so far in organizing and categorizing my thoughts (using a personal, localized wiki-style that seems to fit pretty well to the way my brain categorizes information).  These tools appear to scratch similar itches in different ways, so I'll have to give them a shot.

----------


## Naeddyr

I AM DONE HERE I WILL NEVER EVER DO ANOTHER CLIMATE IN ME LIFE SWEAR TO ATHË.

this map contains naughty words scribbled in a very messy hand parental discretion adviced

i gave up halfway and lumped everything i hadn't done yet (i did the tropics, subtropics, arctic and subarctics in that order) into a TEMPERATE CLIMATE which presumably contains everything from MEDITERRANEAN TO MANCHURIAN TO LAURENTIAN TO STEPHEN FRY

It's not like it will matter because all it'll do is show which kind of tree I'm going to draw on me map, is it going to be an WUNDERBAUM NOVELTY ICE CREAM STICK TREE, LOLLIPOP TREE OR NOODLE MESS TREES for arctic, temperate/moderate and rainforest resp.


You'll notice there's only one hot desert here, in the middle of the Southern Continent, and one cold desert in the northern reachest of the Northern Continent, etc. which suits me fine.

The northern turned out to be much colder than the southern pole, and it's much more covered in glacial ice. the southern pole is warmed by ocean currents and MAGIC~

DID I ALREADY SAY I WILL NEVER EVER DO ANOTHER CLIMATE AGAIN

or if i do

there will be three climate patterns called FATHER BEAR MOTHER BEAR AND CHILD BEAR for tropical, arctic and temperate climates


EDIT:

you have to read this in an Eddie Izzard voice, I've been watching his stuff again on youtube and every. time. I do, I get stuck doing this Izzard impression online. i do it subconsciously.

----------


## Ascension

I completely agree with you on both counts...simple climates and Eddie Izzard.

----------


## Naeddyr

Here's a small puzzle for the river constablery. Blue colouring is higher precipitation, white caps are permanent ice (the rivers that originate there are seasonal ice-rivers and ice-rivers in general), and the mountains are, as we say in Finnish, "suuntaa-antavia", _advisory_ in nature, and the rivers are more important than the specific topography given here (which was basically just me scribbling along. I mean, look at the mountain-range on the tail of the Northern Continent! Just horrible.)

There's a lot of huge rivers, which I might scale back.

----------


## Naeddyr

Just showing some of the progress. This is the part where I do work with Inkscape, collecting all the stuff into a coherent package. This time, I'm doing the two hemispheres separately at first, and the final versions will just be these two combined into one, much simpler that way. I will do several outputs from Inkscape: the "basic" output, which is supposed to be the "looks good" part, without mountains and forests, and two outputs for forests and mountains, so that I can then later-on draw those by hand in GIMP.

The graticules dots were done by first tracing a bitmap of a graticule dot that I had converted with Hugin. This gave me a simple object that I then used to pattern to lines of latitude, using the same method as in RobA's (or was it his?) tapering river tutorial.

Hm, thought of something.

...

Ah yes. That doesn't create a correct graticule dotting. Seems the pattern isn't exactly the same. I will probably something like bitmap trace something that i've transformed with Hugin, later. But not today, it's half past midnight.

----------


## Naeddyr

Naturally the picture is of the SOUTHERN continent, do not let the name deceive you, I screwed up. I worked on that file for hours and hours, and I never figured out I'd named the bloody thing wrong.

I also came up with a method to create good poles for maps that are without "human" distortion. You know how, if you draw on an equirectangular or other map projection map, where the poles are hugely distorted, you tend to screw things up so that it looks weird if it's in any other kind of projection. I mean the geography is weird, not glitches, etc. Everything looking "pointy". I came up with a way to avoid this pointyness, using Hugin to do some transformations of equirectangular maps, back and forth. Not very complicated, but Hugin being what it is, I'm thinking of doing a tutorial for this. Any interest?

----------


## Karro

> Naturally the picture is of the SOUTHERN continent, do not let the name deceive you, I screwed up. I worked on that file for hours and hours, and I never figured out I'd named the bloody thing wrong.
> 
> I also came up with a method to create good poles for maps that are without "human" distortion. You know how, if you draw on an equirectangular or other map projection map, where the poles are hugely distorted, you tend to screw things up so that it looks weird if it's in any other kind of projection. I mean the geography is weird, not glitches, etc. Everything looking "pointy". I came up with a way to avoid this pointyness, using Hugin to do some transformations of equirectangular maps, back and forth. Not very complicated, but Hugin being what it is, I'm thinking of doing a tutorial for this. Any interest?


Oh quite possibly.  My own map (theoretically drawn in equirectangular/mercatory-ish) looks horrendous when slapped onto a GoogleEarth globe (as you say, all pointy and stuff).  Part of me wants to go back and fix it, but another part of me says: your computer is _so slow_ that it would take you another _year_ of work to fix it.  If there's a way to "fix" it without having to actually fix it... well... that'd save time.

----------


## RobA

A tutorial on doing this with Hugin would be great!.

-Rob A>

----------


## Naeddyr

It's basically this, I'll elaborate later

Take your equirectangular map into Hugin (as per my other tutorial)



You don't really have to do anything but rotate the image ninety degrees (using the last numerical option in Numerical Transformations thingie in the preview), like so:



Output this, and you have  a map of your poles, in Equirectangular. Do your magic on it, then do this whole thing again in reverse, and rotate the image -90 degrees to get the map in the correct alignment, again. there's some distortion, so you might just want to combine the equatorial regions of the original map with the polar regions of the your new map in GIMP, which should give you the best of both worlds. I usually do my cartographical transformations using high-contrast images that I then use as basis of new pictures (drawing over them or tracing them in a vector program), so this isn't the best way to draw stuff on the actual poles except for stuff like landmasses and other thick stuff that can survive the transformation.

----------


## RobA

This is incredible insanely cool!

I'd wanted to do this for a while and never knew I already had the tool for it!!!!

You can use hugin to remap an equirectangular projection to ANY spot just by typing int he lat and long!  Brilliant for generating local maps from world maps and correcting for much of the distortion!

For example, here is the world centered on Niagara Falls:


And the settings (note these are just sign offset lat and longs for the location!)


And one more for the CWBP guys:


-Rob A>

----------


## Naeddyr

:Twisted: 


Anyhow, some WIP here.

There's a couple of rendering mistakes on the output image, artefacts from Inkscape that can't be helped except through magic. I had the same kind of rendering glitch with another thing. Really weird. If I duplicate the affected items and moved them around, they'd be affected in the different areas (the same "area" on the screen, different relative to the objects), like there was some sort of shape that was clipping away the fill (and only fill) from them at that point, and only for certain objects... If I flipped the whole thing horizontally (it was symmetrical), there was no glitch. Here, the glitch is that one of the coastal dithering lines (number one or two) is missing from part of the upper continent's southern sea coast. Weird stuff.

----------


## Naeddyr

Here's some test mountains and hills. Trying to figure out how to simulate extreme height and plateaus and connected height, etc.

----------


## Karro

Looks good, I like the mountains.

Also... the Hugin used in your little example above, this is the same Hugin that is used to stitch panoramas?

----------


## Naeddyr

> Looks good, I like the mountains.
> 
> Also... the Hugin used in your little example above, this is the same Hugin that is used to stitch panoramas?



The very same.

EDIT:

argh i can't get it right

I WILL CREATE THE PERFECT MOUNTAINS IF IT KILLS SOMEONE ELSE THAN ME

just you see!!

----------


## overlordchuck

AAGHHH!!  Look what your ceaseless quest for perfect mountains has done...

Come...closer...*cough*

The mountains...look...fine..I really like...the test ones...bleaaaagghhhh........

----------


## Naeddyr

> The mountains...look...fine..I really like...the test ones...bleaaaagghhhh........


That's because the test one's didn't have any horizontally aligned chains! I'd really like to have a style that is consistent for all chains (older mountains can have the brush method), and I even kept on thinking about this in bed so's a coold nae sleep.

----------


## hunab.cu

Wow! The mountains are really nice!

(I just visualised myself making such mountains... and the picture of those hung up on the wall, printed in high-res, as an ideal template...  :Smile:  )

----------


## Naeddyr

These mountains are perfect enough!

----------


## Karro

> These mountains are perfect enough!


The mountains do indeed look good, but a minor nitpick:

The style and appearance of the mountains and the coastlines don't quite gel together for me.  The mountains look very hand-drawn, the coasts not so much at the moment.  But excellent progress.

----------


## Naeddyr

> The mountains do indeed look good, but a minor nitpick:
> 
> The style and appearance of the mountains and the coastlines don't quite gel together for me.  The mountains look very hand-drawn, the coasts not so much at the moment.  But excellent progress.



Changing the coastline to look hand-drawn would seem problematic, but I have some ideas up my sleeves, many of them complicated. I presume you mean the wavy bits... Man. I'm NOT redrawing them by hand! I can't _draw_. Systematically. My hands are pseudorandom line generators.

----------


## altasilvapuer

I wonder what would happen if you desaturated the mountains a little, so they matched the saturation of the coast.  It wouldn't be perfect, but it would still look pretty good, I think.

That, or you could lay down penlines in Photoshop/GIMP/etc, and stroke it with a slightly wobbly (technical term?) brush, to make it _look_ hand-drawn without having to hand-draw it.  I could explain what I mean better in PS, but I lack the experience with GIMP to translate there.

-asp

----------


## Karro

> Changing the coastline to look hand-drawn would seem problematic, but I have some ideas up my sleeves, many of them complicated. I presume you mean the wavy bits... Man. I'm NOT redrawing them by hand! I can't _draw_. Systematically. My hands are pseudorandom line generators.


I meant both in terms of color/saturation level (a gray versus the black of the mountains) and in terms of the smoothness of the coasts and the consistency of the coastal waters lines.




> I wonder what would happen if you desaturated the mountains a little, so they matched the saturation of the coast.  It wouldn't be perfect, but it would still look pretty good, I think.
> 
> That, or you could lay down penlines in Photoshop/GIMP/etc, and stroke it with a slightly wobbly (technical term?) brush, to make it _look_ hand-drawn without having to hand-draw it.  I could explain what I mean better in PS, but I lack the experience with GIMP to translate there.
> 
> -asp


I'm pretty sure it's possible in GIMP as well.  RobA did something similar with a map he created in GIMP/Inkscape, so I think he might be able to help with the process.  It took very smooth lines like these and turned them into hand-drawn looking lines using the software to do it for him.

----------


## Naeddyr

i have been working ston-nop for nigh three hours now to give you the scraggly-looking coasts you so desire

don't talk about saturation yet, we're not done here. saturation and stuff comes much later, that's easy as a piece of pie compared to the ordeals i've suffered in the past hours. i had to download POtrace, for goodness' sake, because inkscape couldn't handle to strain

in fact the last couple of hours have been mostly a "gimp and inkscape dying on me and me trying out different combinations to reduce the memory footprint of the images) etc. the final coastline went through a path that is inkscape > gimp > potrace > inkscape > gimp, and that is without the false starts etc. etc.

and it's not even that impressive

i am never listening to you guys again

 :Rolling Eyes: 

EDIT:

man and now i'm thinking about how maybe i should redo this completely to get better outlying lin-NO NO I CAST THEE OUT DEMON

EDIT:

Also, should I switch the direction of the sunlight for the other hemisphere. It would make thematic sense, in that the sun rises on the opposite side of the picture there.

----------


## Steel General

This is coming along quite nicely...bravo!

----------


## overlordchuck

I love it.  Very awesome.

And yes, I rezzed myself to make this statement.  Can't remember if I ever repped you for this, so I'll go ahead and do it.

----------


## altasilvapuer

Actually, I think the ocean borders look quite good like that.  The only difference now is the difference in colour depth between mountains and coast.  As Karro said, one is more of a (light) grey, and the other is a dark grey/black.  Looks great, though!  You've been doing quite an amazing job, so far, so I think I'm going to clam up a bit and see where this goes.   :Wink: 

-asp

----------


## Naeddyr

> Actually, I think the ocean borders look quite good like that.  The only difference now is the difference in colour depth between mountains and coast.  As Karro said, one is more of a (light) grey, and the other is a dark grey/black.


Well, honestly, I don't see much problem here. Mountains are big, thick and scary while coasts are more dainty and wear lip gloss. There should be a difference.

----------


## Karro

Well, I like what you've done with it, now.  It looks good, and I think it's thematically tied together.  (IMESHO)  Good job!

----------


## altasilvapuer

> Well, honestly, I don't see much problem here. Mountains are big, thick and scary while coasts are more dainty and wear lip gloss. There should be a difference.


I love this description, heh.  And as I said, I'm going to clam up a bit and watch you work, because I like where your style is going, and I feel like I'm projecting my tastes a little too much - something I sometimes have a problem with.  It is much harder to learn when you babble too much, as I've found out many times.

Can't wait to see the finished product!

-asp

----------


## Naeddyr

This is still very WIP. The papery look is from a script of my devising (and some extra things that I did, I figured out something new~), but the mountains are suhtkoht done. Could do with adjustment everywhere, but I'm not really going to do it, am I?

EDIT:

I'm doing at least:

- trees
- names for places (in a script you won't be able to read in pseudo-random words in a language I haven't bother to create (yet?))
- more decorative stuff, thinking of adding to human figures in the corner (two kinds of mages, a Sealer, typical (well, usually found) on the Southern continent (so she goes in the upper left corner) and a Former, found on the Northern continent (lower right corner)) doing typically decorative stuff.
- numbers, as in the older map

Possibly doing:

- new, less regular wave pattern for the seas.
- small Here Be Dragon pictures, human figures, animals, sea monsters, etc.
- small pictures for the cities, nothing much, a house or two. I also need to figure out a way to mark underground cities (found on the south polar area mainly). Upside down city symbol?
- maybe political borders, though that might be better off as a separate map
- volcanoes etc. tsunami signs, if i can bother to decide where they go

----------


## Steel General

Very cool...what do the symbols in the lower left mean or are they just decorative?

----------


## Naeddyr

> Very cool...what do the symbols in the lower left mean or are they just decorative?


That's just an elemental system I made up for something, and here used as decoration. A variant of systems I've created before, hierarchial in nature, tripartite here. There are three ultimate elements, which are divided into three second level elements, which are further divided into a third level (not shown here) etc. in theory until you get down (or up) to the most specific bits of the universe. This system is Sun element, Moon element and Earth element (changed here to Gold, Silver and Earth elements cause the world has three moons), which are subdivided into [Fire, Wind, Thunder], [Blood, Flesh and Breath] and [Water, Earth and Air]. These of course don't represent Fire or Blood or Earth directly, but just name the categories Fire, Blood and Earth, which represent stuff like Fire and Sap and Rock etc.

I love making up elemental systems, I really do.

EDIT:

Of course this system isn't factual in Ysi Earth, just like the representation here of the Solar System as a Tychonian system is factual, it's just something the map makers added there.

EDIT:

And the script is just nonce words written in Phelthie. I'll try to read them.

EDIT:

First the orthography, then latinized, and finally pronounciation in IPA

Sun: m̥a-e-ʔʰi-a, Mhe'ha, mhe+'ha "sun+metal", /m̥eʔʰa/
Moon: ga-u-mo-ə-ʔʰi-a, Gumë'ha, /guməʔʰa/
Earth: qa-o-bze-ʔʰi-a, Qobze'ha, /qobzeʔʰa/

Sun Sun: kʰa-l-dzo-i, Khaldzi, /kʰaldzi/
Sun Moon: qʰo-a, Qha, /qʰa/
Sun Earth: pə-e-l, Pel, /pel/

Moon Sun: n̥u-a-ne-a, Nhana, /n̥ana/
Moon Moon: qsi-u-ʔa, Qsu'a, / qsuʔa/
Moon Earth: blə-i-ŋ, Bling /bliŋ/

Earth Sun: tʰi-n, Thin /tʰin/
Earth Moon: ze-u, Zu /zu/
Earth Earth: ʔzo-ə-ŋə, 'Zë'ngë /ʔzəŋə/

----------


## Girltron

When I saw this thread I made an Eddie Murphey face and voice: "aaaaaaaaahsome"!

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT SIR  This is the kind of project exactly that I'm planning.

I'm awfully glad you're sweating through it so visibly onscreen so I can figure out what to do. 

Thanks!  (And keep it up)

----------


## altasilvapuer

Apparently clamming up and leaving you room to work was the right approach, heh.  This looks absolutely fantastic!  And for the record, the mountains don't jump out at me, anymore.  Great work!

-asp

----------


## Karro

Yeah, it looks great, now!  It's really all coming together beautifully.

And awesome work on the script.  It looks really good.

----------


## Naeddyr

Further WIPing here. Did forests and cities with brushes I made, adjusted the rivers to be less heavy, and tried out if I can draw at all, resulting in the woman Sealer (yes it is a woman and you will see the truth as soon as I learn to draw) in the upper left corner.

I'm going back home to the countryside for Easter, so I won't have a mouse. Luckily, the main parts that I was going to use mouse for on this map (the mountains and the brushes) are already done. Adding text is something I will do with the mouse (cuz it's vector stuff), etc.

I've started to think whether I should just use public domain images to make the picture pretty. There's that classical pictures of a Rhinoceros, for example. I was thinking of tracing and modifying it by removing the horn and adding tusks, to get a beastie I've had in mind... Large enough to be able to carry a gondola. And then there's of course the monoceroses, antelope-like critters with a horn before their eyes (like a rhino), etc. Man, "monoceros" is such an obvious name for a creature like that... I just noticed it on that page, but I coined it independently some time ago. :p

EDIT:

Three tree brushes, one for firs, second for lollipop trees and a third for "rainforest my bum", with a lot of droopy trees. Cities have just one brush (which was kinda annoying when I had to click thirty times to get the Big One, and then immediately after that I get it three times a row. THIS HAPPENED SEVERAL TIMES I SWEAR), but you can't really see the detail well at this resolution. You might notice some of the cities in the southern polar areas are upside down (if you look really really hard), and those are underground cities.

EDIT:

Here have some animals.

----------


## hunab.cu

First WIP from those three here looks great. This project looked great to me from the beginning, but now I dare to say that it will be one of most awesome maps I've ever seen.

I rarely turn the serious mode on, but now I say with absolutely no joke: Naeddyr, you're really talented and your Ysi earth project is amazing either in concept and execution!  :Shocked:

----------


## Naeddyr

Added place names for bigger cities and seas and oceans (and one lake).

Added graticule numbering. If you can figure out the numbering system you get a cookie. No. TEN THOUSAND cookies!

Had to make a cleaner and more legible version of Phelthie for the small print.

----------


## altasilvapuer

> Added graticule numbering. If you can figure out the numbering system you get a cookie. No. TEN THOUSAND cookies!


Well, judging by earlier posts, I'm going to make a semi-haphazard guess that the latitude lines drawn are in increments of 15°, for lines at 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90, and their reciprocal negatives.  What I can't figure out, yet is whether the number starts with the South pole as 0°, or the equator.  I did notice that the S shape (that in the higher latitudes looks almost like a variant of some $ symbols, but I think that's just an optical illusion from size) is appended to the end of every degree ending in 5, leading me to believe it is some method of denoting either 5, or halfway to the next increment.

Also, both 75°N and S seem to have identical numberings, save for the addition of a 'C'-like shape in the middle of the name for 75°N.  (Closest transliteration I have: 75°N = GCS, 75°S = GS).  The same occurs at 15°N and S, save for the addition of a near-arch shape (closest transliteration, using M as the closest representative of the 'arch': N: 6MS, S: 6S).  I haven't deciphered whether either is relevant, yet, though.

I haven't begun to take into account meridians, yet, though, and I should be off to class, soon, so further investigation will sadly have to wait.

Out of curiosity, where are the current centers of 'modern' society in this map?

-asp

----------


## Naeddyr

> I haven't begun to take into account meridians, yet, though, and I should be off to class, soon, so further investigation will sadly have to wait.


Oh that's pretty obvious, 15 degrees, 360 and 180 degrees. I actually thought of using some other number for the number of degrees, but it turns out that 360 is a kick ass number. Seriously, it is awesome. So the problem is not that... I was more refering to the numerals and maths themselves. Here's a hint: the "5" looking shape is actually a numeral meaning 3.  :Twisted:   :Evil: 

Seriously, it's quite complicated. You don't even have that much information to go on! Possibly impossible to figure out.




> Out of curiosity, where are the current centers of 'modern' society in this map?


This is a fantasy map, so it doesn't have a modern setting. Tech-level around 17th century, some more, some less, and a bunch of magic to compensate, etc. I'm trying to go for a bit more fantastical instead of mechanical fantasy, but it's hard. Have to keep on reminding myself that people in the past don't think like I do, etc.
The concept of this whole map is a cheat, actually. The northern and southern continent don't know about each other - they are very separate, with some stuff leaking through at the edges "there is a land in the west/east" etc. so a world map like this wouldn't be possible. This map does have a backstory, though, based on stuff from my novel (which I have to rewrite), The King of Nowhere, and the rest... Is spoilers.  :Wink: 

I'm going to put some illuminations relating to the story here. The Sealer figure in the upper left corner is supposed to be the other main character of KoNW, and I'm going to add a man looking down on Earth in the wedge between the Red Moon and the South Pole...

----------


## Girltron

I've been thinking you may want to experiment with other ways of drawing the human figures.  The map's style of markmaking (including the animals portrayed) is very calligraphic and the figure, as it's currently drawn, is much blockier and with the beginnings of modeling shadows and such.  

Instead, I suggest looking at the way human figures are portrayed in more linear, pattern-like ways.  Check out the figures in the Lindisfarne Gospels perhaps, as well as Chinese portrait paintings of various eras.  The black and white ink paintings will be helpful, though the brushier, looser ones wouldn't fit well.  Egyptian and Minoan wall-paintings of human figures, and woodblock prints of various eras and cultures may be good resources too, depending on the cultures you're representing.  You may be able to combine line qualities and get something that matches the map a little more.

In general, I like to think of figure painting this way: cultures that prefer a flat, pattern-making style are not illustrating "human" characteristics but divine ones.  Cultures that favor illusion of depth and modeling tend to be more focused on human, rather than divine or philosophical, concepts.  That's a VERY generalized way of saying it.

----------


## Karro

> In general, I like to think of figure painting this way: cultures that prefer a flat, pattern-making style are not illustrating "human" characteristics but divine ones.  Cultures that favor illusion of depth and modeling tend to be more focused on human, rather than divine or philosophical, concepts.  That's a VERY generalized way of saying it.


That's an interesting assertion, there.  I'd be interested in hearing the logic or supporting evidence behind that conclusion, out of curiosity.

----------


## Girltron

Oh, it's quite a bit OT.  Since you asked, though: the logic is that portraiture is specific.  Look at Roman republican portrait sculptures.  Those are about specific, down to earth people.  Similarly, portrayal of physical space is only of interest when portraying humanistic ideas-as in, obviously, the early Renaissance in Italy where the philosophy of art was moving in a very humanistic direction and away from broad spiritual representations.  Look at the transition between pagan and early Christian art in Rome as an example of a transition in the opposite direction; art that deliberately turns away from portraying real space in favor of less specific forms that represent general (and often religious) ideals instead of specific ones.  Oen could argue that the religious art of Pagan Rome was always more political and human-oriented than oriented toward the spiritual.  It's not worked up all thesis-like, it's just a decent framework for designing an art style for a culture.  And it holds up to comparison with human cultures and art.

Heck, here's another example:  compare Minoan and Egyptian paintings of similar time periods.  The Egyptians were much more concerned with the afterlife/non material than the Minoans, whose art, being more naturalistic, was about basic day to day activities instead.

----------


## altasilvapuer

> Oh that's pretty obvious, 15 degrees, 360 and 180 degrees. I actually thought of using some other number for the number of degrees, but it turns out that 360 is a kick ass number. Seriously, it is awesome. So the problem is not that... I was more refering to the numerals and maths themselves. Here's a hint: the "5" looking shape is actually a numeral meaning 3.  
> 
> Seriously, it's quite complicated. You don't even have that much information to go on! Possibly impossible to figure out.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a fantasy map, so it doesn't have a modern setting. Tech-level around 17th century, some more, some less, and a bunch of magic to compensate, etc. I'm trying to go for a bit more fantastical instead of mechanical fantasy, but it's hard. Have to keep on reminding myself that people in the past don't think like I do, etc.



After I posted, I did notice some of the meridians had the same markings as some of the parallels, so I knew some were the same, and had a hunch they included 15, 30, and such.  Knowing you're such a stickler for correct sizing and perspective was also a clue in that regard, given the approximately square shape of the central four graticules (I think that is the proper use of that word, yes?  I've only just learned it as a result of this discussion, surprisingly).

As for the term 'modern' I mean essentially just up to the point of the technology of this map.  If you say they're at roughly 17th Century level technology, then I'd be looking for analogues to the main population centers of 17th Century Earth.  Basically, my theory was that (0, 0) in the graticules would likely have some relation to at least one major population center and/or the equator.  In order to decipher the symbols, I first have to discern what they represent, which requires knowing where (0, 0) resides, which is what I'm currently trying to figure out.

Also on that note: if the two continents have no contact, do the graticule numbering systems vary between them?  If so, which 'point of view' does this map represent?

And you say that the 5-shape represents 3?  By that, I assume you refer to what I termed the "S"-shape, present, for example, at the end of the label for the arctic circle?

-asp

----------


## Karro

I imagine, based on other details in the map, that the numerals are written backwards (i.e. right to left).  Would that be an accurate statement?

----------


## Naeddyr

> Knowing you're such a stickler for correct sizing and perspective was also a clue in that regard


No I'm not!




> As for the term 'modern' I mean essentially just up to the point of the technology of this map.  If you say they're at roughly 17th Century level technology, then I'd be looking for analogues to the main population centers of 17th Century Earth.  Basically, my theory was that (0, 0) in the graticules would likely have some relation to at least one major population center and/or the equator.  In order to decipher the symbols, I first have to discern what they represent, which requires knowing where (0, 0) resides, which is what I'm currently trying to figure out.


Note that 0,0 will still lie on the equator, usually. The prime meridian is by fiat, but the equator is a natural constant.




> Also on that note: if the two continents have no contact, do the graticule numbering systems vary between them?  If so, which 'point of view' does this map represent?


Presumably. I forgot the whole prime meridian thing, so when I started numbering these, I picked one 15-meridian that went through a big city at random from those present. This is a Southern Continent (which is "up" on this map) system. It can be difficult to see, but zero is represented by lack of number.




> By that, I assume you refer to what I termed the "S"-shape, present, for example, at the end of the label for the arctic circle?


Yes, that sign represents 3, and only 3.




> I imagine, based on other details in the map, that the numerals are written backwards (i.e. right to left).  Would that be an accurate statement?


The dominant writing for this script is up to down (with columns going by the handedness of the author; Ysi humans have less right-handedness domination, sinisters are around a third of the population. Or at least the among the races of the Southern Continent. There's people who have tails on Ysi Earth (result of sexual selection, very short tails), an addition I am going to make the map). If written horizontally (which it might be), it's left to right. Thing is, which way are numbers written? Even if the script is left to right, orders of magnitude don't necessarily descend or ascend that way... :3

You're going to kill me after this is over and I tell you how it works. It's a very different system from our familiar arabic numerals.

You really need more information.

This number is _nine hundred and eighty nine_.

----------


## Karro

Okay, so the handedness of the map creator may not be a factor in the order of the numerals.

So; other factors to consider:

Base #: this may not be base 10.  Considering the focus on 3's I'd think something based on 3s is just as likely: possibly either Base 3, Base 6, Base 9 or Base 12.  The base will tell us the number of unique glyph symbols that are represented in a given counting system.

The meaning of glyphs/digits in representing numerals: in the arabic system we use, each glyph/digit represents one numeral in a base 10 system, with each additional glyph/digit to the right indicating a power of 10.  Using the same system, but changing the base, as above, to let's say a base three system would give us three different glyphs: one for 0, for 1, and for 2.  Each digit to the right (assuming the numbers are ordered from right to left in the arabic system) would represent an increased power of 3.  Thus the glyphs 10 would represent 3, 11 would represent 4, and 12 would represent 5, 20 would represent 6 and so on.  However, this isn't the only way for the glyphs to represent value.  In the roman system, for instance, each "I" represents a value of 1.  If the I is to the right of another glyph, it is added to the value of that glyph.  If to the left, it is subtracted from the value of it.  Each V represents a value of 5, each X a value of 10, and so on, and consecutive glyphs of the same value are added together before either being added to or subtracted from the next-order glyph.  Alternatively, the order of the glyphs could be reversed, so that, going back to our example, 01 represents 3, 11 represents 4, 21 represents 5, and so on, so that the higher-order numeral is to the right instead of to the left.  The fact that our higher-order numerals are to the left, IIRC, is an artifact of arabic being written from right to left.

So... the order of the digits could have a variety of meanings representing different operations that are performed on the glyphs to arrive at a given value.  Addition, subtraction, and multiplication are the operations most likely to be suggested by the order of glyphs (in arabic, it is multiplication by 10s, 100s, and so on), although it might theoretically be possible for digit-order to indicate divisions as well.

Other considerations might include the possibility of hybrid forms where the counting systems appears to represent more than one base, or where glyphs represent something other than pure value (i.e. mathematical operators, etc.) or hybrids of different types of counting systems (like a hybrid roman/arabic system, perhaps?)  And besides the examples I've given, I'm not familiar enough with the topic to come up with other alternative counting systems from which to draw clues and conclusions.

----------


## Naeddyr

> Okay, so the handedness of the map creator may not be a factor in the order of the numerals.
> 
> So; other factors to consider:
> 
> Base #: this may not be base 10.  Considering the focus on 3's I'd think something based on 3s is just as likely: possibly either Base 3, Base 6, Base 9 or Base 12.  The base will tell us the number of unique glyph symbols that are represented in a given counting system.


Ohoho, very good, very good, and _so close_. _But_ there is one assumption there that will drive you insane as you try to apply it to THIS system... *cackle*




> Other considerations might include the possibility of hybrid forms where the counting systems appears to represent more than one base, or where glyphs represent something other than pure value (i.e. mathematical operators, etc.) or hybrids of different types of counting systems (like a hybrid roman/arabic system, perhaps?)  And besides the examples I've given, I'm not familiar enough with the topic to come up with other alternative counting systems from which to draw clues and conclusions.


I'll help: it's not roman or pure arabic. There are still other numeral systems out there. In fact, this numeral system is unique (yet as logical as any), not to be found in nature.

----------


## Karro

> Ohoho, very good, very good, and _so close_. _But_ there is one assumption there that will drive you insane as you try to apply it to THIS system... *cackle*
> 
> 
> 
> I'll help: it's not roman or pure arabic. There are still other numeral systems out there. In fact, this numeral system is unique (yet as logical as any), not to be found in nature.


Yeah, I don't assume I'll solve this, per se.  As I said, I'm not familiar enough with other number systems, outside the Roman and Arabic, to glean other clues.  But maybe some of my musings on this conundrum will help someone figure it out.

Looking at this latest selection of numbers, a few additional thoughts occur to me:

Orientation: I'm not sure if any existing number systems are affected by this, but I'm curious if the orientation of the figure might affect it's value or meaning.

Modified Characters: I also wonder if there are other specific and regular changes we might make to a glyph that modify it's meaning or value, like the attachment of certain diacritic-like marks.

One thing is for certain, the number of digits in  your numbers aren't a predictable indicator of value.  From the latest example, we see the number 412 requires 4 digits to display correctly, whereas 468 requires only 2.  Further, the two numbers don't have any digits in common, as far as I can tell.

----------


## Naeddyr

> Modified Characters: I also wonder if there are other specific and regular changes we might make to a glyph that modify it's meaning or value, like the attachment of certain diacritic-like marks.


I will outright say that orientation, placement and modification do not change the numbers' value or anything about them.

----------


## Karro

Okay, so my last set of musings on these numbers for tonight.

Some additional assumptions and concepts that may need to be questioned:

The existence of 0.  Zero is a very important concept mathematically, but is not common to all number systems.  The roman system has no 0 or equivalent.  If I remember correctly, 0 was invented in India and borrowed into the arabic system.  Without a 0, the way I detailed how base-x systems won't work.  For instance, without 0 in our system, we would have to have a symbold to represent 10 because we cannot denote the value of 10 by the position of a 1 in the tens place followed by a zero in the ones place.  So, we might have a symbol that represents 10.  To represent 11, we might follow the symbol that represents 10 with the symbol that represents 1 (or vice versa, depending on the order of the numerals).  To represent 20, we might have one of two (or more that I haven't considered) methods: repeating the 10's symbol (as in the roman system, two instances of the 10's symbol "X" adding to represent 20) or we might preceed or follow the ten's symbol with the symbol for 2, meaning that we have 2 10's.  

Another assumption is which digits need to be represented by unique symbols.  In the roman system, for instance, there is a symbol that represents a 1, one that represents 5, one that represents 10, one that represents 50, 100, and so on.  (I'm not sure, but I'd wager the roman system is a hybrid base-5/10 system.)  Numbers in between are represented by operations on the existing symbols.  II means 2 because we add to the two symbols for 1 together.  IV means 4 because we subtract the symbol for 1 from the symbol for 5.  

Lastly, all I have time for is to consider how you might be able to represent 468 with two digits while requiring 4 to represent 412.  I pick this comparison because it is the most obvious example of the number of digits playing against our expectations on their value.

From this we can glean a few things.  First, I think the base we are working with has to be something higher than 10, or at least that we have unique glyphs that represent values greater than 10.  I think this is the only way we can represent something like 468 in only 2 digits.  We could have one of these digits represent the value of 68 and one the value of 400 (very unlikely, and mathematically cumbersome, but provided as an illustration of an example).  Or, the two numberals could be representing values that are multiplied and whose product is 468, for instance 9 times 52 or 39 times 12.  Or one could represent a value greater than 468, and the other an amount subtracted from that value.  For instance one could represent 32 and one 500, with the difference being 468.

Honestly, though, none of these seems right in this situation.  468 is such an unweildy number, and doesn't easily factor into any simple, meaningful numbers that I can currently see.

----------


## guyanonymous

Am I allowed to make a guess?  :Very Happy:

----------


## altasilvapuer

Have at it, Guyanonymous.  Personally, I'm determined to crack this, if it takes the help of half the guild.   :Wink:   Challenges are fun.

I've got to do a little more looking before I post anything else, though.

Out of curiosity:  Is the symbol used at the top Pole in the image (the North Pole, I believe?) representative of "maximum"?  Unless I missed something important, which is possible, I find it used in Latitude for 90°N and in Longitude for what I believe is 180°, based on the empty line being 0°.  I'm going to transliterate this as "T" for now, until I come up with a better option.  The first problem I see with this approach is its use in 412, as there appears to be no frame of reference for a "maximum" that I can see.  At least, no logical one, anyway, as 100% of some base numeral would be more logically represented simply by the base numeral, correct?  Unless one of the symbols preceding or succeeding the "T" is a modifier of modifiers, and functions similarly to the Roman Numerals, except that the unit being so modified then modifies the base numeral?

Also, the curved "M" shape appears to be used in both 60°S and 30°E, again basing on what appears to be the empty line.

Are we dealing with percentages in some of these numbers?  (i.e. the "T" symbol being equivalent to 100% or somesuch).  If so, that's an interesting approach.

The symbol used at the equator also appears to be a percentage, unless I'm mistaken.  Is it 50%?  It is used for 0° Latitude, and 90° Longitude, both of which can be viewed as midpoints.  The only wrench in this thought, though, is what appears to be -90°: ΣδMS being the closest transliteration I can come to without involving images, which would be a little cumbersome for now.  "δ" refers to the curly-cue shape whose tail heads to the upper-left.


The more I look at this, the more I'm led to believe that these numbers are mostly a system of bases and percentages.  δ could be a percentage modifier to the double-y in 468, or vice-versa, in that case, allowing for only two digits relatively easily.

Do we have symbols for the cardinal directions in here?  Because Σ, I notice, is present in each of the °W numerals, but in none of the other 'negative' numerals that I've seen (i.e. -90° latitude/ 90°S)  Or does Σ represent a negative quantity in certain situations?

-asp

EDIT:  I think I might be on to something, here:
G8S (75°N/165°E) seems to be always 15 less than the Maximum.C5 (75°S/15°E) seems to be 15 'short' of the minimum number, if one counts from either the maximum or the 'median'.  It is also 5 'units away' from the Median (i.e. count 5 parallels or meridians).  Combined with the knowledge that _5_ is 3, this leads me to believe that _C_ represents 5 orders of magnitude of the accompanying figure, or 5x3.  For the °E, this is simply the answer (15+minimum), and is positive.  For the °S, it is 15+the negative maximum, or 15+-90.  I haven't formulated this into a concrete rule, yet.M (60°S/30°E) seems to function similarly, only it represents two 'units away' from the negative maximum.δns (45°S/45°E) may function in the same manner, representing three 'units away'.

Are these numerals unique to this map with respect to placement on meridians/parallels, or are they generalized.  I.e. if you had a map with a different projection, would the same numerals represent the same lines?  A number of things seem to be relative to the point shared between both maps.  At first, I notated it as 90°S, or the South Pole, following a belief that 0° Latitude would be the middle of the sphere at the equator.  Now, I'm beginning to wonder if it is merely a starting point number, such as 0.  Also, the numeral indicated (transliterated as "W") has yet to appear _anywhere_ else, implying that it is either not a numeral, or that it is unique.  Given that it is also used on the compass rose, I propose that it is actually not a numeral, but a character/word/etc.  There appears to be no concept of "0" at first glance, as with the Romans.

I have yet to actually factor in any of the supplementary numerals, yet, so this may change some.

-asp

----------


## guyanonymous

I'm going with base 6, digits reversed, and I'm thinking the exact place - the um...leading zeroes instead of trailing zeroes, have something to do with the number of bumps/position on some of the letters?

----------


## altasilvapuer

Guy, go back to my post, again, if you haven't already.  I edited it with a couple new discoveries before realizing you'd already posted here again.  They may help.

-asp

----------


## altasilvapuer

Additional findings, so far:

 6MS (15°N, 105°E) : median + 1 'unit' hC (30°N, 120°E) : median + 2 'units' hZS (45°N, 135°E) : median + 3 'units' Gn (60°N, 150°E) : median + 4 'units' G8S (75°N, 165°E) : median + 5 'units' or maximum - 1 'unit' - TCS (165°W) : maximum - 1 'unit' (compare to 15°E) TM (150°W) : maximum - 2 'units'

Still haven't deciphered Σ, yet, though.

I am done for the night, as well.  I have to be up in about 5 hours to get ready for class, so I suppose I should hit the sack, now.  Intriguing puzzle, so far, Naeddyr.  I look forward to the continuance of it.

-asp

----------


## Naeddyr

Karro, the sign on the middle pole (the South Pole shared by both hemispheres) is just the abugida consonant+vowel for the word "south". Remember, guys, that the "down" hemisphere is rotated 180 degrees!



I will also say that Karro is much closer to cracking this than alta, sorry about that.  :Very Happy: 




> Are these numerals unique to this map with respect to placement on meridians/parallels, or are they generalized. I.e. if you had a map with a different projection, would the same numerals represent the same lines? A number of things seem to be relative to the point shared between both maps.


These are numbers for a general graticule numbering system.

I've noticed that you guys seem to miss some of the numbers. I will say here that if you can't find the numbers at the equator, it's usually up or down the meridian because there has been too much geography at the equator. And remember, zero is marked by the lack of zero, so there is one unmarked meridian and one unmarked longitude...

Only one of guyanonymous's guesses is correct, but it's exactly spot on.

 :Very Happy:

----------


## altasilvapuer

D'oh!  I forgot all about the rotation.  I'll go back and double-check my numbers.

-asp

----------


## Karro

Well, a few additional observations and thoughts:

First, I missed earlier on in the thread when Naedyr stated unequivocally that zero was represented by the absence of a numeral.  This hinted very strongly at a number system that lacked the concept of a zero, and thus is not ordered in a fashion like the arabic decimal system.

Another thing that's been pointed out: the latitude of the north pole is denoted by a single character, while the south pole is denoted by the word for "South", and no numerical figure.

Next: I had a look at the character set for the Phelthie writing system, and it does not include any numerals, further, comparison to between the numerals and the abjad characters does not reveal any clear duplicates.  So they are not using their phonetic characters in a double-duty role as numerals as well (common in many ancient numeral systems, including the roman system and the hebrew system).

One last observation: it appears that the fifth line of longitude from the right on the northern-facing continent lacks a numeric designation.  The first line of longitude to its right is designated with the carotid symbol (a heart-shape on its side) followed by the S-shaped symbol: the same numeric designation as is given to the first line of latitude north of the South Pole.

Now, an assumption: we are going to assume that in this numbering system a circle has 360 degrees, as it does for us, and that a semi-circle has 180.  This may be a faulty assumption - if you view the world a different way, you could easily divide a circle into a different number of segments.  But this assumption will drive some of the following conclusions:

Conclusion 1: the symbol at the North Pole represents, on its own, the value 180.

Conclusion 2: since we know that the S-symbol represents 3, then the carotid symbol most likely represents _either_ 12, 5, 18, or 45.  12 would be reasonable for an additive representation: 12 + 3 = 15 (assuming the first line of latitude and longitude are at 15 degrees).  5 would be for a multiplicative system.  18 if our representation is subtractive (18 - 3 = 15) or 45 if this system goes the really unusual route of being divisionary (45/3 = 15).  Now, in the representation of the number 412, we see the carotid symbol used in the penultimate (L-to-R) position.  If we were dealing with a strictly additive system, if the carotid were to represent 12, we would expect it in the ultimate position (either L-to-R or R-to-L) and for the other figures to somehow represent the value of 400.  But there is a different glyph in the final digit location, instead.  This suggests that the character we are looking at does not represent 12.  This leaves us with the possibilities of 5, 18, or 45.  A divisionary system seems rather cumbersome and highly non-intuitive.  Although it meets Naedyr's criterion of "a system that does not occur in nature", it would be sufficiently complex and unwieldy that I _believe_  it is very unlikely that this is the system being used.  (Besides, just using an unusual numeric base would be sufficient to fulfill this criterion.)  This leaves us with the possibilities of 5 or 18.

Now, returning to the numerals representing 412, and assuming we read these symbols from L-to-R, let's examine the symbol following the carotid that looks like a 3 with a long curly-que on the bottom stroke.  We know this symbol does not mean 2; we are given that 2 is represented by the small circular symbol that has circling arm that branches off it's right side and curves around to its underside (we'll say this symbol looks like a 9, although it doesn't quite, really).  So, we can assume this symbol either represents 12 by itself or represents 12 in conjunction with the symbol to its left: the carotid.  Now, from above, we have demonstrated that, at least in some cases, when a numeral follows something to it's left, it is not always additive.  We believe the carotid represents either 5 or 18, and in the case of 5 we are further stating that we believe that the system is multiplicative.  If the carotid represented 5, however, there is no whole, real number by which we can multiply 5 to reach the value of 12 (or 412, for that matter). From this, we can pretty definitively conclude two things: the carotid does not represent 5, and the system is not multiplicative (or at least, that it is not _always_ multiplicative).  So... this suggests that the carotid represents the value of 18.  This means the curly-3 represents the value of 6, for 12 is 6-less than 18.

However, we run into a problem, here.  We've just delineated a subtractive system, where a numeral to the right of a greater-valued numeral is _subtracted_ from the value of the larger numeral.  If this is the case, however, then why wouldn't the value of the carotid be _subtracted_ from the value of whatever lies to it's left?  And what does the carotid represent in the representation for 989, where it is the second glyph of four?  I feel like I'm getting close, but not quite there.

Summary: I believe that the position of the numerals impacts greatly what we are going to do with that numeral.  In the roman system, reading L-to-R, if the next number is of a greater value, then we will subtract the current numeral from the value of the greater.  If it is of equal or lesser value, then we will add the value of the next numeral to the value of the current numeral.  From there, we have unique glyphs only for 1, 5, 10, and multiples thereof.  I think there are similarities in this system.

So far, in this system, we've been shown that there are unique symbols specifically for 2 and 3.  We've also followed a logical path, based on a few assumptions that are perhaps faulty, that there are unique symbols for 18 and 180.  If the latter two are true, we might also guess that we will encounter unique symbols specifically for 36 and 360, though this is obviously a leap in judgment.

My guess, and this will be a wild guess here:  we read the numerals from left to right.  If the next numeral is greater than the current numeral, we multiply.  If it is less than the current numeral, we subtract.  I also guess, based on a certain reading of Naedyrs response to guyanonymouss guess,  that we will have unique numeral characters for values ranging from 1 through 6, as well as for certain multiples of 6.  OTOH, I haven't accumulated _quite_ enough evidence to really assert this as a conclusion (although I do believe that the carotid-symbol represents 18, and that a lesser numeral following after a greater, at least in some cases, is subtracted from the greater).  However,  this would imply a unique character for 12, which would have to factor into the discussion above on the value of 412, so its not worked through completely clearly.

So, in conclusion, Word tells me that I have written over 1,200 words, so this is officially a very long post.  Thank you.

----------


## Naeddyr

Oh god, you are so _close_, *yet*. Yet! I was all like warm warm hot hooooot hoooooooooot COLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOOOOOLD.

Here's a big present from Hinterklaas.

----------


## Karro

> Oh god, you are so _close_, *yet*. Yet! I was all like warm warm hot hooooot hoooooooooot COLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOOOOOLD.
> 
> Here's a big present from Hinterklaas.


Yeah, at the end, I lacked some crucial details to make a better determination.

However, this latest number still fits roughly into this scheme, so it doesn't help much.  If the lower-case-e symbol represents 24 (a multiple of 6) 21 will be 3 less than 24.

----------


## Ramah

I think my brain just melted trying to even follow what is being said, never mind actually taking part. :s

----------


## Karro

> Oh god, you are so _close_, *yet*. Yet! I was all like warm warm hot hooooot hoooooooooot COLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOLDCOOOOOLD.
> 
> Here's a big present from Hinterklaas.


You know, I  have to wonder aloud at what point I went from being warm to cold.  (That would be a huge clue.)  My assumption is that the multiplicative aspect is probably wrong.  That was really just a wild stab, and I knew it, as it wasn't based on a build-up of reasoning like I used to arrive at the subtractive element.




> I think my brain just melted trying to even follow what is being said, never mind actually taking part. :s


Yeah, thinking about numeral systems _is_ a pretty niche-interest that's largely academic.  I myself am not an expert, but just a random joe with a passing interest.  I've thought a bit about numeral systems for my own world, but not actually done any work to develop one.

----------


## Naeddyr

> You know, I  have to wonder aloud at what point I went from being warm to cold.  (That would be a huge clue.)  My assumption is that the multiplicative aspect is probably wrong.  That was really just a wild stab, and I knew it, as it wasn't based on a build-up of reasoning like I used to arrive at the subtractive element.



How interesting that bit about subtractive systems, hmm. So you're still thinking that, hmmm.

*Hmmmmmm.*

----------


## Karro

> How interesting that bit about subtractive systems, hmm. So you're still thinking that, hmmm.
> 
> *Hmmmmmm.*


Hmm. Well, if I'm wrong about the subtractive element, then that throws out a lot of the reasoning I built up to in my oversized post.

So, if subtractive is out, the cardioid symbol (I was calling it carotid by mistake; cardioid means heart-shaped, carotid is a major artery supplying blood to my brain, which apparently it wasn't supplying _enough_ blood to my brain) certainly can't represent 18.

So, we're back at square one: additive or multiplicative (or divisionary, if you want to throw that back into the mix, although I can't imagine a society or frame of mind that loves math so much they count by division), with the cardioid representing either 5 or 12. But this leaves us back with the same conundrum of what the cardioid is doing in the number 412. If the system is additive and the cardioid means 12, why is the twelve lodged in the middle of 4 digits to represent 412? And if multiplicative, how does 5 factor into 412?

Concerning the multiplicative aspect, again, one thing we _can_ guess almost for certain is that the system can't be _purely_ multiplicative, because there is a large family of numbers that can't easily be represented in a purely multiplicative system (i.e. Primes). In such a system, each prime number would _have_ to be represented by its own unique symbol (and this could get unwieldy, as there are a _lot_ of primes). This might be possible in a primitive system that never deals with overly large numbers and so might view the total number of primes as finite; but it's also unlikely that a primitive culture would strike upon the concept of primes ex nihilio in the first place. So, although the few digits we've identified with complete certainty (i.e. 2 and 3) are both primes, and none of the multi-digit numbers we've seen represented so far are known to be primes, and also given that we're fairly sure that at least one unique symbol represents a non-prime number (i.e. the symbol for the North Pole, which I still think means 180), I think we can easily assert that the system, if it _is_ multiplicative, is not _purely_ multiplicative.

Anyway, if were dealing with either a multiplicative (plus additive) or purely additive system, Im going to have to think about the implications for the characters the numbers that we do know And right now I dont think I have time to devote fully  :Frown: 

edit: if we're dealing with either a multiplicative or additive system, we now also know the "e" symbol represents either 7 (multiplicative) or 18 (additive).  But since we don't see the "e" represented anywhere else, we can't really use this to build up any additional logic - although assuming it to be 18 would be a possible affirmation of the "base-6" theory, while assuming it is 7 a possible rejection of the same.

----------


## altasilvapuer

I can't believe I didn't consider the possibility of the North Pole being 180, rather than 90.  All of a sudden all the weird patterns I was trying to explain make sense.  I'll have to do some more work on this when I get home, and take another stab.  For now, though, I'm stuck in and out of classes/rehearsals for another 5 hours or so, with my notes at home.

-asp

----------


## Karro

Well... I may have come up with another possibility: purely additive, with numbers arranged by order, largest to the left, smallest to the right.  The base is 6, with special characters representing the 1 through 6 as well as low-multiples of 6 (12 & 18, in particular), powers of six, and powers of six times each of 12 and/or 18 (so special character for 36 = 6^2, 72 = 12 * 6^1, 432 = 12 * 6^2, etc. etc.)

Some possible examples:

15 = (12)+(3) [cardioid plus S-shape]
21 = (18 )+(3) [e-shape plus S-shape]
615 = (432)+(180)+(3) [double-y plus northpole plus S-shape]
468 = (432)+(36) [double-y plus sideways-lasso]
412 = (216)+(180)+(12)+(4) [Sigma-shape plus northpole plus cardioid plus curly-3]

However, so far this doesn't line up with the 989 or 78 figures, or I can't see how it can, yet...

Edit: There's no logical proof of this, as yet.  I just wanted to see what would happen if I assumed it _was_ additive, and started plugging in numbers that I knew based on this, and still assuming the north pole is 180.  Some other results of this: if the third meridian from the right of our "prime" (unmarked) meridian is 45 (sideways-lasso plus n-shape plus S-shape), then n-shape is 6.  Then if the last meridian on the northern continent is 60 (sideways-lasso plus Z-shape), then Z-shape is 24, which is 6*2*2... So it might be the case that we also have a special symbol for each multiple of 6 where the other factor is less than 6, i.e. 6*3, 6*4, 6*5... so we'd postulate a unique character representing 30 as well.  That would be the curly-M back a few meridians.

----------


## Karro

Unrelated to the numbers, looking at the map, I also believe the character that looks like a backwards-schwa with a curly-cue on it means "Sea" or "Ocean".

----------


## Naeddyr

Karro, you are pretty damn close.

As a reward _here's an alternative way to write 989_.

i tried to make a suitably evil laughing devil smiley for this occassion but he turned out to be too jolly

----------


## Karro

> Karro, you are pretty damn close.
> 
> As a reward _here's an alternative way to write 989_.
> 
> i tried to make a suitably evil laughing devil smiley for this occassion but he turned out to be too jolly


Hmm.  Mainly what this seems to suggest is that either the order of the digits is not important at all or that the rules governing digit order are not as straight-forward as largest digits to the left smallest to the right.  Unfortunately, I don't see that it tells us anything else about this numeral system, or that it even offers a clue as to which of these is actually the case - particularly without a means of determining the value of at least one more of these symbols.  I'll be poring over the map to see if I can find examples there that can help.

Okay... I think I'll have this figured out soon... I'm working through the values of each of the meridians, going with ASP's original assumption of 15-degree increments and proceeding all the way around to 360.

----------


## Karro

Sorry to double-post...

ASP: do you still want a crack at figuring this out?  I ask because I've got it 95% figured out, I think (I still don't know why 989 can be written with the two symbols transposed, the original transcription of the numerals just look totally out-of-whack with every other example)... and I don't want to post the final answer if you still want a chance to work it out.

But I can offer this clue: I know enough to now recognize that there is an error in the labeling on the map.  Starting on the farthest west meridian on the Northern section of the map (the map edge, labeled Sigma Z) from the very next meridian onward (Sigma Lasso e) all the way to the unlabeled prime meridian, all of the meridians are off by 15 degrees.  In other words, the difference between Sigma Z and Sigma Lasso e is 30 degrees rather than 15, and the last labeled meridian before the Prime (Sigma G) actually _should_ have the label right before it (Sigma J e S), and so on back to where the error started, whereas the value of the lable Sigma G shouldn't appear on this map at all!

I'll also say I believe I've correctly identified 15 of the first 16 unique numeral symbols (all except the numeral for 1, assuming there is one, of course) and 1 symbol from the next 5.

----------


## Naeddyr

> But I can offer this clue: I know enough to now recognize that there is an error in the labeling on the map.



...


*checks*



...

*BLOODY HE-*


Argh.

This is correct, when shifting everything rightwards so's I could center the prime meridian on a new spot, I accidentally left out the second number of the Southern Continent Hemisphere (Which Is The Top Hemisphere, Not Northern Hemisphere, for the Hemispheres are East-West To Each Other).

Apologies for this.

But at least it seems Karro is pretty close to getting it. Here's a hint: there's 20 signs to be used to write all positive integers less than 1296. Most have not been seen here, and on the map only a certain set is used because all numbers are multiples of 15 (much like any number that is a multiple of 15 in our numeral system ends only in 5 or 0).

And if this helps, the first 989 was a _nonstandard_ order, but still _correct_. Basically, I screwed up (I was supposed to do the later order), but that doesn't actually matter for this numeral system.

----------


## altasilvapuer

I've been working in bits and pieces, still, but I need to account for the information in the last two pages or so, before I can do any more work.  I haven't done much work in the past 2-3 days because I've either been at school, or going to sleep shortly after I'm home from it.  Very long days.

I've noticed a possible pattern or two, though, that I need to explore some.  I'll post more when I actually have something.

Also: Are the first symbol of 989 and the final symbol of 412 the same, or different?

-asp

----------


## Naeddyr

> Also: Are the first symbol of 989 and the final symbol of 412 the same, or different?
> 
> -asp


Errata to my last post, there are 20 symbols, not 40, and yes, the symbols are different.

Karro has basically got it, so I gave him all the details he could need.

----------


## Karro

> Also: Are the first symbol of 989 and the final symbol of 412 the same, or different?
> 
> -asp


As far as I could tell, 989 and 412 are completely different.  The two versions of 989 only have the middle two characters transposed.  I'd call it "Closed-curly-3, Cardioid, J, Backwards-curly-C" then "Closed-curly-3, J, Cardioid, Backwards-curly-C".  412, meanwhile, is only shown as "Sigma, Northpole, Cardioid, Curly-3", where Northpole is the same symbol that represents the north pole and Curly-3 is a completely different symbol from Closed-curly-3 (the value of the two aren't really related, they just happen to look similar).

----------


## Ramah

> Karro has basically got it, so I gave him all the details he could need.


Does he get a thousand cookies then?  :Smile:

----------


## Naeddyr

A new WIP pic, at this moment I'm only doing decorations and populating the whole area of the map. Need to do some ships and seamonsters.

Here's done:

- correction to graticule numbering
- the Sealer and Former figures are now done
- some maze texture at the bottom
- a small picture of the origin of the map

----------


## ravells

Original, imaginative and beautiful. 

Three of the greatest compliments I can pay to a map and its maker.

----------


## Naeddyr

Added some more images to the map: A guy with a hammer (just some random mythology, I don't even *know* yet what it is. But I needed something interesting for the middlemost Moon, and the only suggestion was "it's shattered/fractured", so there you have it, a huge guy with a hammer"), a tree representing summer and winter (the orbit of the the third moon is quite elliptical. its apogee during full moons is in the southern summer, and perigee in the southern winter: thus, it looks larger in the winter than in the summer (because when it's at its perigee, it's in its new moon phase and can't be seen at its smallest)), sea serpent (with flippers -- this is an order of snake-like animals who haven't lost their front limbs like our snakes have. Call them "lamia" or something. There's handed lamia, flippered lamia, legged lamia, and maybe winged lamia, etc. We'll see), and a ship.

I also decided that there's a bit more diversity in Ysi shipcraft than our own had: giant catamaran designs are common. Here's an example I whipped up in Sketchup. Also a temple design I made earlier this week, nothing special, but I've only been learning Sketchup.

----------


## Ascension

That houseboat catamaran looks nice...get me some fine ladies and go sailin in that.

----------


## Naeddyr

> That houseboat catamaran looks nice...get me some fine ladies and go sailin in that.


I was more thinking of a trading ship, not a "house"boat. Do I need to scale the design up even more? :p Though now that I've looked around, I found these sweet Keralan designs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:House_boat_1.JPG

----------


## Girltron

This is such a beautiful map.  Your figures are much better now, too; they fit the overall style.

----------


## Naeddyr

Added a guy with his dogs.

There is a kind of magical profession whose imagery and symbolism stems from the image of a herder, because the magic they use is mainly tied to semi-sentient spirits that the magician controls to do simple tasks, a bit like an animal trainer (there's other kinds that do that same, except they look different, it's a subculture thing).

Anyhow, this is a sky-god or something. Clouds are sheep, the four winds are the herder's dogs, thunder and lightning is his gonne, his whistle the sound of the wind; when the clouds grow old, they turn gray and black, and when they rain down they finally die, shedding their waters on the Earth.

----------


## Karro

I don't have the power to make these sorts of predictions, but if I did I would predict that when the final version of this gets posted in the finished Maps section, it would earn a Featured scroll.

----------


## Naeddyr

Added the catamaran and... I think I'm done. This map is done.

----------


## Bjorn Schievers

> Added the catamaran and... I think I'm done. This map is done.


I like them very much.

----------

