# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Regional/World Mapping >  The semi-canonical maps of Middle Earth

## J.Edward

So almost a week ago a few of us were chatting about doing a friendly challenge of Middle Earth maps.
I jumped right into it and started. It occurred to me quickly that I needed to reacquaint myself with Middle Earth as I had not read any Tolkien for a few years. That got me thinking I might as well do the whole ME lands, which turns out to be a bigger task than I originally thought.
I have a lot of it done already but I keep coming up with new things to do, which then means I ave to add those or correct them for all the other areas I've already done. That is a pain in the ass! BUT... I think it will be worth it in the end. The whole map will look a lot better once it's done.

Anyhow, it sort of changed at a point and now I am doing 4 regional maps and 1 large map.
The regions will start with Mordor and also include Eriador, Rhovanion and Gondor. The large map will include some of the north[Forodwaith and Northern Wastes] as well as the south [Haradwaith and Far Harad]. So it's going to take some time.

I just finished the Mordor region map which will give you an indication of how I am doing all these maps.
I should add that I take some liberties with the landscape in some areas. I researched a lot from various sources to get a good idea of how it would be laid out. But some things Tolkien did just don't sit well with me and so I made some changes. Heretical - I know.  :Wink: 
An example being, most of his mountain ranges are just too narrow for me. 
You may not like how I did them but just know that it was a choice, not a mistake or misunderstanding.
Beyond that, feel free to jab and pick and pull it apart if you feel it necessary. I may bite though.  :Very Happy: 

So here's the first of several ME maps. Cheers.

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## Meriba

Great work J.! I found strange these location icons. It's a top view map and the icons not.

Nice detail with the "Eye" and flavor text ^_^

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## J.Edward

Thanks Meriba. Valid point on the icons. 
I was using some I had made previously but if they aren't working I may do some new ones.
Not sure at this scale if top down tower icons would read as towers though. 
Maybe I should just use dots or something to indicate the towers. Any thoughts?

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## arsheesh

Beautiful work!  The eye is very cool.  The lighter muted color scheme is very attractive as well.  Looking forward to seeing the other maps.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## J.Edward

Thanks Arsheesh.  :Smile:  Any opinion on the tower icons?

So I made a quick stab at trying some top down icons.
They work ok in 1 or 2 places but I'm not sold on them yet.
I may just need to make more and use different ones for different areas.
Thaurband, Minas Morgul and Barad-dur seem okay but the others look a bit wrong to me.
Maybe I'll add some roads too. I'll keep working on it as time permits.  :Wink:

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## J.Edward

Well, I went ahead and redid those top down icons. And added some roads through Mordor.
Had to do some research to figure where the roads should be.
I think it looks better with the top down icons, so thanks for that Meriba.  :Smile:

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## - Max -

I like the style , very neat. And I agree, the top down icons works way better. Good job !

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## Abu Lafia

A very fine map J.Edward! While catching the Tolkienian spirit with the "nearly" b/w style with only some subtle coloured parts, your linework, especially the nice simple mountains, the labeling/font and indeed the new icons are bringing in your very own. Just great. Can't wait to see it next to the other maps...

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## J.Edward

Thanks Max and Abu.  :Smile: 
I just started on the Rhovanion region tonight.
I'll have to make some new icons for towns there too.

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## Meriba

These icons looks great, but I don't understand their meaning, except for Barad-dur (tower?), Bar Lythryn (village?), Thaurband (stronghold?). Maybe a little legend would help (Minas Morgul is also a tower complex). It's Just a personal opinion, of course.  :Question: 

Also, the R. Culduin label doesn't follows its course like other rivers labels.

Finally, I really like the clarity and few colors of this map!  :Smile:

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## Sapiento

I have to second Max and Abu!

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## ChickPea

I really like the style you've chosen for this. The mountains look fantastic and they give the map a lovely textured feel, especially when zoomed out. I need try this mountain style myself one of these days.

If I had to nitpick, it'd be over the the map title at the bottom. I don't know if you're planning to work on this later on, but it looks a bit plain and pedestrian at the moment. Maybe I'm just used to seeing highly decorative titles and that makes me feel this one looks a bit unfinished. But that aside, you're doing a cracking job!

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## J.Edward

Thanks Meriba. Missed that river.  :Wink: 
I did a small legend-ish thing for the icons.
Icons are often just a generalization of what a thing is.


edit - just saw the other comments.
Thanks Sap and ChickPea.  :Smile: 
I'm not sure if I want the title to be any more complex or not.
I did it quick and simple since the map had a simple atlas look to it.
I'll take another look at it and think it over ChickPea.  :Wink:

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## - Max -

The legend is a nice touch and adds something to the clarity of the map indeed.

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## Meriba

I have nothing to say except BRAVO!  :Very Happy:

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## DanielHasenbos

Great map, I love the simplicity of it!
On thing is bothering me though, the angles to which the icons lean looks very inconsistent to me. This might just be me not getting the perspective right, but maybe you could lean them all away from the middle of the map if you understand what I mean...

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## J.Edward

Thanks Max and Meriba.  :Smile: 
Thanks Daniel.  :Smile:  
I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the icons. They're drawn as top down so they aren't to be 'leaning' in any direction.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here.  :Question: 

@ChickPea... I did a change to the title text. I really like it. It may not have been what you were talking about but I'm glad you mentioned it since it got me to rethink and redo the text. I think it looks much better now.  :Very Happy:

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## Diamond

Great work so far, dude!  Where the heck's that 'Like' button?!?   :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

> Where the heck's that 'Like' button?!?


I know, right. Wish they'd bring it back already.  :Exclamation: 

Thanks Diamond.  :Smile: 
I'm working on Rhovanion and the North right now.
Maybe done tomorrow. Must sleep now.  :Smile:

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## ChickPea

New title = AWESOME!  :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

Thanks ChickPea.  :Smile: 
Like I said, I'm glad you made the suggestion.
Now I have to come up with something interesting for Rhovanion to compete with that fire.  :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

Hey ChickPea - this one goes out to you for the title suggestion.  :Wink:  
I did a lot more on the title for Rhovanion.
I am trying to make the titles go along with the nature of the region they represent. So Mordor - Fire. Rhovanion - Plants.  :Smile: 
This one is not fully completed yet. I still have some stuff to do though it is pretty close to done.
I went a little over board on the Mirkwood forest hills, but it's fun. No worries.
I may have to redo the secondary roads as they're a little difficult to see in some parts.
I still have to do the icons for towns/cities and such.

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## ChickPea

Wow, the title for this one is gorgeous! That's a fantastic idea to let the titles show the contrast between the different regions, especially since the maps themselves are all in the same style. 

I'm still loving those mountains. I almost want to reach out and run my fingers over them, because they really look like you'd be able to feel the ridges under your fingers!

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## Will Phillips

I'm absolutely *loving* the art direction on these maps.

The only feedback I have right now is you ought to find a better, more clearer way to differentiate between forests and water. They look pretty similar on first glance. Perhaps make the difference in grays greater or add some saturation to one?

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## testador

So beatiful.  I love the delicate color palette chosen. It fits very well. And I agree with some of the comments, fantastic mountains that look amazing when zoomed out too.  And I was going to mention what pokealypse just did. Maybe when water and forests appear together they may benefit from more differentiation. However, I really love the styles of both ! congratulations. I will certainly keep an eye on this progress! thanks for sharing!  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

Thanks ChickPea.  :Smile: 
Pokealypse - thank you.  :Smile: 
That is one of the difficulties of this kind of monochrome map, trying to get the balance between geographic types and the monochrome tone used.
I can see what you mean and will explore some possibilities. Thanks for that feedback.  :Smile: 
testador - thank you as well.  :Smile:  And thanks for adding your voice to that feedback.  :Wink: 

Hopefully I'll be able to update some of this tomorrow or sunday.

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## Diamond

Sigh..... yet another person whose brain I'll have to eat so I can absorb some talent....

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## J.Edward

> Sigh..... yet another person whose brain I'll have to eat so I can absorb some talent....


Just be careful to separate out those dark and mutated sections.  :Wink:

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## arsheesh

Damn.  That's some fine work J.  I love what you've done with the title.  Once again i'm impressed with how quickly others here like yourself can produce such excellent work.  Takes me ages to draw anything that looks halfway decent.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Galendae

Great Maps!  Some minor correction:

1.  Brown Lands move little bit North, basically other side of the Road.
2.  Tallath Harroch-  Means Southern Horse Plains in Sindarian...Move it south of where it is now.
3.  In past non-canocial works Romenost covered the next intersection in the Road little bit east of where you have it now.  Translates to Eastern Road Fortress.
4.  Dagorlad goes where you have Dead Marshes and Dead Marshes little West and South of where they are now.  Dagorlad translates to Battle Plain.

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## Ilanthar

Great maps! I love the style you've developed here.

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## tainotim

I second Ilanthar. The style you use for this is really nice, and works very well with the theme. Great work J. Edward!  :Smile: 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## - Max -

Like the first one, this second map is very nice. I like that clean and elegant color/design style (and that thematic titles is a great idea). Well done again J. !

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## J.Edward

Thank you Arsheesh.  :Smile:  You do wonderful maps as well.  :Wink: 
Thanks Galendae.  :Smile:  I will look into those points.
Thank you Ilanthar.  :Smile:  I am liking this style too. 
I am hoping I can refine it into a good workable, repeatable style. Though maybe with some color in the future maps.
Thanks tainotim.  :Smile:  I'd like to get it to a good useable atlas style for future use.
Thanks as always Max.  :Smile: 
I did some more title lettering just for fun and practice yesterday. It isn't strictly maps but it relates to them so I decided to drop them in here.
These aren't for maps I'm doing, except Mordor and Rhovanion, as I've used them already. 
I just thought it'd be fun to do Moria and the Shire and of course Middle Earth.

My sister thought the E at the end of shire was hard to see so I may redo that one if others agree.
Cheers.

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## Diamond

I like all of those with the exception of Moria - it looks too cartoony for such a grimdark place.  Kind of makes me think 'Fred Flintstone in Moria'.   :Very Happy: 

You know what I'd like to see?  A title for Fangorn Forest with the Ents forming the letters.

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## ChickPea

Love those titles! Have to agree with Diamond about Moria. The home of Balrogs shouldn't look so cutesy! I think the 'e' at the end of the Shire is OK. Possibly if I saw it on its own it might be a little harder to read, but when it's placed with the rest of the letters, I think it looks fine.

I'm so loving this thread!  :Smile:

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## - Max -

Agree, Moria looks a bit too cutesy  :Very Happy:  Shire's one is beautiful though maybe a bit overpowered compared to the ones of Mordor and Rhovanion you've already made?

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## J.Edward

I agree with you all on Moria. It didn't come out quite as planned.
I thought it looked like it would go with a video game or maybe a cartoon style map.  :Very Happy: 
In my head, I was thinking about the old 2e version of Forgotten Realms but I didn't go look at it for reference, which maybe I should have.
Max - yep, I agree. When I do the ones for a map it is more down played and subdued, not quite so bold.
Diamond - Fangorn might look cool that way. That would take some work though.  :Wink: 
Thanks Diamond, ChickPea and Max.  :Very Happy:

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## tainotim

Very cool J. Edward. Your wide range of different artistic skills never seize to amaze.

Concerning the Moria title, I agree with the other. Would love to  see a mixture of something with mithril(silvery white) – Morias greatest treasure, and the dust, dread and darkness that followed  :Smile: 

Cheers,
Tainotim

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## Diamond

Good idea from tainotim - mithril silver is a good idea.  You could make it kind of tarnished, maybe with some dwarf skulls and broken axes leaning up against the letters?

(Wow, I'm super enthused over these titles for some reason.   :Very Happy:  )

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## ChickPea

Well, if we're pitching in ideas .... I think you want a hint of a fiery glow somewhere, just to give a nod to what else lurks in Moria.  :Very Happy:

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## Eilathen

Wow! I'm impressed with this thread (and the maps ^^) for various reasons. A very atmospheric work so far. Keep it up, J.Edward! I want to see more  :Wink:  And some Rep. is in order...

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## J.Edward

Thanks tainotim.  :Smile:  I was originally thinking of doing mithril but thought it might not stand out as well as gold.
I'm working on another Moria that hopefully will be more in keeping with Moria, and not cartoon Moria. think Mario...Moria  :Very Happy: 
Diamond - I like the idea of axes/hammers, if I can find a good way to work that in.
ChickPea - was thinking of trying to get the feel of flames coming up from below. Maybe I should add some watcher in the water tentacles.  :Very Happy: 
Thank you Eilathen.  :Smile:  More is on the way.
I am also trying out some green on the forests in Rhovanion. It will change the look of the map somewhat from the cleaner simpler look of the Mordor map but it just seems like it might be needed since Wilderland has so many trees. I'll post some examples when I have some ready.

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## J.Edward

Okay. A bit of progress on the new Moria and an update on some green forests.
Interested in thoughts on whether I should continue with the green woods or go back to monochrome.
The water color, pale gold, might seem odd but I like it. Blues looked wrong. Blue greens were no better.

Now that I've started this new Moria title I just might have to do a Moria map to go with it. 
No time really but it seems like it's calling for a map to accompany it.  :Wink:

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## Abu Lafia

First of all, the Rhovanion map looks brilliant! The coloring is really nice, though for me it feels a bit like in the proverb: who says "a", also have to say "b"  :Wink:  . Since the green seems pretty dominant, it screams for coloring the rest of it too... In the version before the tiny bit of mustard-yellow didnt felt too demanding in this way. 

The new moria title is great (although i loved diamonds idea of "the flintstones in moria" a lot  :Very Happy:  )! And a map of moria in this series would be fantastic.

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## Diamond

I agree with Abu about the dominance of the forests - maybe back it off a bit, wash it out?

and the new Moria title - yessssss.

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## DanielHasenbos

Great map this is turning into! Though I understand what Abu and Diamond are saying I personally like the dominance of the forests because green seems to be the only colour you're using.

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## - Max -

> Okay. A bit of progress on the new Moria and an update on some green forests.
> Interested in thoughts on whether I should continue with the green woods or go back to monochrome.


Both works good. I have a preference for the monochrome ones though, it's more unique than the green ones

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## ChickPea

Moria title is amazing!! I love it and I hope you do create a map because I'd love to see that.

I can't quite decide on the Rhovanion forests. The green looks really good but the paler tones of the series overall gives them quite a unique feel and I don't know if this forest quite matches now. I think I'd like to see a less vivid green version to see what it looks like. The colour of the Sea of Rhun works well, and I think I'd like to see a green around the same saturation level as that. But, whatever you decide, these maps are utterly amazing!

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## J.Edward

Thanks everyone. I was on the fence about the green but I think going back to the monochrome is what I'll do.
Maybe I'll save the color for the whole ME map, or for an additional map.
I do like the green but it does sort of break the mono theme I was originally going for.
I did try some paler greens and some desaturated greens and they just kind of looked washed out.

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## J.Edward

I went back to the monochrome. I added some town/city icons but wasn't real happy with them.
So I did a version with just dots to denote locations. I kind of like that better but I thought I'd put them both up and see what the response was.
Didn't get any further on the Moria lettering. Might do more tonight.
Map with icons - and with dots...
 
I think this one is getting close to done. Then it will be on to Gondor. ...or maybe Moria  :Wink:

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## ChickPea

The icons are nice but I'm hedging towards the dots. The maps have something of a 'pared-down' feel with the monochrome palette and I feel the dots seem to fit that better. The icons add a small flourish, and they certainly don't overwhelm in any way, but personally I like the simple dots better.

I like the toned down forests. It works much better with the overall style.

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## J.Edward

Thanks ChickPea.  :Smile: 
Mordor was a smaller map area and the icons seemed to work there. But this region is a much larger area and the icons just seemed wrong somehow.
I did a whole bunch of different ones in different styles and none really seemed to look right.

I got a bit more done on the Moria lettering last night. Watcher is mostly done. Weapons started.
Not sure what the Moria map would be. Maybe just some of the larger halls. I'll have to go back and reread the bits on Moria.

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## Diamond

My thoughts are pretty much the same as Chickpea's r.e. the dots instead of icons.  And I'm freaking LOVING that Moria title.

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## ChickPea

The Moria title is just full of win! I love the texture you've added on the watcher's skin. It looks fantastic.

About the Moria map, I didn't actually think there were any maps of Moria. I was curious and did a quick search and there does seem to be a few, mostly from gaming I believe. There's some Moria layout info summarised in the Tolkien Gateway site, but I think you could indulge your imagination with this one. When I think of Moria, my mind goes to the dark, atmospheric dungeon maps we see around here. I'm interested to see how you'll work that with your pale, monochrome pattern, though I suppose there are plenty of black & white line art maps too.

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## Abu Lafia

Man, i instantly fell in love with the great weapons on your deviantart site when i saw them the first time! Great that you give us a glimpse of wip of those axes here. (Ok, i stop fanboying now...  :Very Happy:  ) I also prefer the dots on the map, it fits the style better overall.

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## Ilanthar

My preference goes to the dots too. And, I'm kinda jealous  :Wink:  : your titles are art by themselves!

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## Eilathen

I also think dots over the more fancy icons...BUT...i looooove the color version of the map. Sure, the forest pops quite a bit...but it IS the dominant feature of the region...  :Wink:  Now i'd really like to see a full on color version of those maps! Very well done. Looking forward to more maps.

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## Sharpes

Ah, this is what I miss out on when I only frequent the finished maps thread!  :Very Happy:  These maps are coming along really well J.Edward! Like everyone else has said the titles are superb and stylish and bring out the best in giving each region its unique cultural touch. Any chance you will do the lands south of Mordor/Gondor? (The Haradrim were always my favourite  :Smile:  ) What are the fonts btw?

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## J.Edward

Thanks all. The dots win.  :Very Happy: 
I'll have to check some details but I think Rhovanion is done.
Glad people are diggin the lettering. When time permits, Moria will get its map. 
It will likely be a dark full color map. Maybe just some specific area[s]. 
It would be monumental and complicated to do all those subterranean passages that go over and under and all. We shall see.

To answera a few questions... 
Eilathen - I may be doing a color version of the whole ME map. Maybe in addition to the monochrome ME map. 
I'll have to see which I prefer for that final thing. It's really big. 
Sharpes - I hear ya. I try to keep up with all the wips but it's too hard.  :Wink: 
Yes, in a way. The big ME map goes from far in the Northern Wastes all the way down past Far Harad. So you'll get that eventually. Stay tuned.  :Very Happy: 
And all the lettering is hand drawn digitally. I did use a font as reference for Rhovanion, and maybe Mordor. Can't remember off the top of my head. All the others are just drawn up from scratch. I used to do calligraphy and still do lots of lettering and font stuff.

I started Gondor today. It still has a lot of work to be done. 
NOTE - Pinnath Gelin has to be scrapped and totally redone.
This is early. Still has my quick hand scribbled red Tolkien lettering.  :Very Happy: 
Much to do tonight.

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## Deadshade

If you want to map Moria, there is quite some research to be done.
To my knowledge no Tolkien's sketch is known even if I think it probable that there had to be one.
It would be a challenging project because Khazad dûm is unique - a symbiosis of rock and architecture. Huge staircases, statues, bridges above chasms, waterfalls, majestic halls ...

A kind of synthesis is :

"_Khazad-dûm was a huge array of chambers, passages, mines, halls, stores and pits. In general, areas were either classed as mines or city. The mines were working sections of Khazad-dûm whilst the city was the area of habitation. 

The city areas of Khazad-dûm were clustered primarily to the east; these were the oldest parts of the kingdom and had access to the Great Gates. They were structured into seven Levels and seven Deeps. The Levels stretched above the gate whilst the Deeps were set deeper within the mountain below the level of the East-gate. It is possible that the First Level (on which the Great Gates were set) and the First Deep were highly intertwined. 

The eastern section of the city spaces had also been delved in such a manner as to have light shafts to illuminate their chambers. One example of this is the Chamber of Mazarbul which was located on the eastern edge of the Seventh Level. 

The mine areas of Khazad-dûm were interlaced with the city spaces, but spread also westward toward the Doors of Durin. The mines ran deeper and further than any other tunnels within Khazad-dûm, and it is possible that more of the lower Deeps were given over to mining, although this is only conjecture. 

The defined change between mines and city can be seen when the Fellowship pass through Moria - there is a marked difference between the early passages and chambers and those of the city structures illuminated by Gandalf. 

Far below Moria, there are abysses, spaces and tunnels not known even by the Dwarves, but known by the Balrog. Unknown beings gnaw the earth and make them, far from the knowledge of any lore._ "

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## J.Edward

Hey Deadshade, thanks for all that. That will prove helpful when I get to doing Moria.  :Smile: 
Yesterday I spent way too much time looking up place names, river names and such for this Gondor map.
It can be really taxing trying to find obscure names and info for this stuff.
I did make up 2 river names in the western areas, and I still had some unnamed rivers or tributaries. Oh well.
Almost all of the label work is done. I still need to change some of them to be on a curve. Some of the county/province names are not yet curved.
I won't be doing the town/city names on curves. It's just a bit too much curve.  :Very Happy: 
Then I need to decide on the title lettering. Gondor was called the land of stone so maybe that will play into it. Not sure.
I may be open to suggestions on that. Got to do some real work today though so not sure when that will get done.


edit - I forgot to mention, I may still do some work on Harondor. Or I may leave it and do that on a different map. Not sure.
I did originally plan to do the land features there.
Oh yes, and I just noticed I need to do those city/town icons or dots.  :Wink:

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## J.Edward

I went ahead and did a bit to Harondor and added the city/town dots.
The rest will have to wait till later tonight.

Dol Amroth, Linhir, Pelargir and Minas Tirith will get special icons. 
I'll have to come up with unique ones for each that still fir with the dots.

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## ChickPea

How about the "Seven Stars and Seven Stones, and one White Tree" rhyme for inspiration? The stars and the tree are on the royal banner of Gondor. The stones are the palantiri, obviously. 

I bet you could come up with something amazing from that.  :Smile: 

EDIT: Doh! Forgot to say, map looks fab!

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## J.Edward

ChickPea - I tried to use that by adding the shield.  :Smile: 
So I think Gondor is done. I went with stone letters. They're okay but not quite what I had wanted.
I feel like I should have just gone with the shiny silver letters but I thought they might seem plain next to the other titles. Oh well.

It seems kinda dead here on the guild tonight.  :Neutral: 
As an added bonus I get to install an air conditioner this weekend. Yay.  :Surprised:  :Frown: 
Not sure when I will be able to get to Eriador. Or Moria for that matter.

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## J.Edward

Well, I just decided to try the silver letters.
I feel like it looks better for this map, the atlas style.
I like the stone letters but the silver seems more appropriate.

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## - Max -

Looks great J.!

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## Pixie

I'm not sold to the use of that saturated yellow on such a white&gray map, looks a little out of place. But it might be just me... Something else I also note as strange is the use of the coastal "lines" inside the Great River Anduin. They don't look great at the mouth of the Entwash and at Lorilad.

On the other hand, while those mountains felt strange at the start, I'm completely sold to the stylized effect by now - it's cool.

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## ravells

Super work. Like everyone else, I love the colour choices (Great for print) and the mountain and forest styles. All the elements work so well with each other.  For the Moria text, I would go with something more 'brutal' and Dwafish - perhaps a 'carved out of stone' effect with traces of Mithril as Diamond suggested?

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## J.Edward

Thanks to everyone for the input and comments on this so far.
It always helps with a long project.  :Very Happy: 
Thanks Max.  :Smile: 
Thank you Pixie.  :Smile:  I will see about the water lines. I don't have a preference on that so I'll remove those and see what it looks like.
On the yellow roads - that is a preference so it will probably stay.  :Wink: 
Thanks ravells.  :Smile:  I was trying to work toward something that seemed like it could be in an atlas, which are often low color or B+W. The yellow roads could be a spot color.
Regarding the Moria lettering - That's what I was trying to do. Maybe it doesn't convey that way? Not sure.

If anyone has any input on the Gondor lettering by all means let me know. I did 2 different ones and I like the silver personally.

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## J.Edward

I edited the rivers based on Pixie's suggestion.
Playing around with drawing other Gondor lettering, just for fun.  :Smile:

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## Diamond

I thought the coast-ripple-lines in the Anduin actually worked well, it helped give it a sense of scale.  "This isn't just a river, it's a BIG river!"

I also like the gold roads - it makes them pop a little without overwhelming the map.  As far as the title, while it's not as 'ornamental' as some of the other ones, I think that works well in this instance - for the dignity and arrogance of Gondor.   :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

@Diamond - Yeah, I'm not sold on that either [river lines]. 
Maybe I can do something a bit more subtle but still visible that gets at it better.
What did you have in mind for the Gondor lettering? Happy to hear any thoughts on that.  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

@Diamond - Here's another version. 
Some subtle drawn lines for the river and a different, perhaps less dignified Gondor.  :Very Happy:

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## Chashio

I actually prefer the previous title lettering and position over this last one, but that's me. Other than that personal preference the last version of the map is stunningly excellent J. Really nice work on this.

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## J.Edward

@Chashio - Yeah, I can see why. That last one is big and dark and heavy. I was trying out a new metal technique.
I pretty much agree.  :Smile: 
I am trying a different thing with the coast lines. I usually use the stroke technique but since I did the river lines as hand drawn I thought I might try doing the full coast lines as hand drawn as well. We'll see if that turns out well.  :Wink:

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## J.Edward

Here's the latest with the drawn coast lines. Nor sure if I like them better.
They're different and add something different for sure. But whether it's better and more consistent with the style I'm not sure.

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## RigoIII

I've always despised the mountains around Mordor... it just seemed like a big square and unnatural to me, you managed to fix it up a bit, great job!

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## RigoIII

By the by, for the rivers and lakes, try something like a very pale greyish blue. Maybe it won't stand out too much and it will be different from the forest. In such a monochrome map just a little saturation will do the job for anyone to notice a difference and I think this blue might be good!

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## Chashio

Ooh, that's nice. I like hand drawn details better most of the time but I think I agree with you on this that it really could go either way without being inconsistent. But my eyes enjoy the distinction between the smooth river lines and the breaking waves on the coast. Also, it's softer with the broken lines and probably suits the hills more this way. Nope. I was wrong. This is definitely better and more consistent with the style.  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

Thanks Rigo.  :Smile:  I guess I sort of felt the same way.  :Wink: 
Regarding the blue water... I'll give it another shot tomorrow but I did try it once and it just didn't look right.
I actually started the whole thing with blue water. It didn't look right as I progressed and that's why I changed it.
But like I said, I'll take another look at it. 
Chashio - yep, that kind of how I am seeing it now.
I always just used the stroke method because it seemed like doing all those coast lines would just take too long. 
But it went surprisingly quick so I am thinking I'll do that more often.
It does seem more consistent with the hand drawn style.  :Smile: 

And just because... I put together all the Gondor lettering. 
There were 2 others but they just didn't turn out well.
I really need to get back to Haerlech and Sagemound.  :Confused:

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## Diamond

Hey, I really like that last Gondor title!  But the first one just suits the piece better IMO.

You're really good at these; I should hire you to do the titles for my maps...

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## ChickPea

I really like the thin silver lettering. It's very elegant and feels right for the realm that was the most prominent and prosperous for the longest time. Only thing I'm not sure about is how you have the shield and words "The Kingdom of" off to the left. I like the way you have the shield in the centre with the thick/fat silver letters, and think that layout works really well. Would that work with the fine silver letters, or would they get lost on top of the shield?

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## Eilathen

I also like the first version best atm. The second one is also very good, composition wise, but the letters are too "fat" and dominant for my taste. If you could (as ChickPea proposed) merge the first and second style somehow...i think it'd be worth a try.

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## Ilanthar

I also prefer the first title. And agree with Diamond that your titles are awesome. Ho! And the Gondor map is a full success too btw  :Smile: .

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## Abu Lafia

Hey J.Edward, another fantastic map of your series, i'd even say, it's my favorite one so far. 
I have one question, since i was playing around with the labeling for my Dor-en-Ernil map lately: where did you dug up some of the city-names on the Belfalas peninsula (e.g. "Eregost" and Tarnost")? I couldn't find them on neither Tolkien's nor Fenlon's maps... Btw. i also prefer the thin silver Title, it has more "gondorness" to it in my view  :Wink:

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## J.Edward

@Rigo - I tried some blues again and came back to the same conclusion. 
It just doesn't work with this monochrome theme. Even low saturated blues stand out way too much.

Thanks all for the input on the Gondor lettering. I think all agree, me included, on the thin Gondor.
ChickPea and Eilathen - I tried a merge of the thin gondor and the shield. It was 'ok' but being thinner it did get lost a bit in the shield.
Thanks Ilanthar.  :Very Happy: 
Thanks Diamond.  :Smile:  If you ever need title lettering, just PM me.  :Wink: 
Thank you Abu.  :Smile:  I went to your thread to answer your question about the place names.
I think this might be my favorite so far too Abu.  :Very Happy:

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## Sharpes

I'm with Abu, my favourite map of this series thus far (though the others are just as wonderful!). Had no idea there were so many places in Gondor.

I'm really digging the thin silver titling of Gondor (I'm with Diamond about the hiring thing as well since I'm terrible at that >_>). And that shield! :O

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## J.Edward

Thanks Sharpes.  :Smile: 
I had to do a good bit of research to find that many places but I felt like Gondor should have as much as I could find.

I haven't gotten any further yet with Moria or Eriador. Had some work to do and didn't have time.
Maybe I'll do a liitle Umbar map. If there's time. That might be fun.  :Smile:

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## Sarithus

RIP Christopher Lee.  :Frown:

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## J.Edward

Indeed.  :Frown: 
He was a wonderful actor and a true gentleman.

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## ChickPea

Yup, RIP. I suppose you can't complain too much if you make it to 93, but I was sorry to hear of his passing. He was putting out heavy metal albums in the last few years. I thought that was beyond awesome!  :Smile:

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## Sarithus

> Yup, RIP. I suppose you can't complain too much if you make it to 93, but I was sorry to hear of his passing. He was putting out heavy metal albums in the last few years. I thought that was beyond awesome!

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## ravells

He will rise again! (I hope!)... great choice of tribute, Sarithus!

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## J.Edward

Well, it's been a while but I'm trying to do some more with Middle Earth.
I'm working on a Moria thing atm. Very loose and non-canonical to be sure.
Didn't feel like rereading the books to get specifics about anything. Lazy.
Too much work - in real life and to reread as well. 
So just an underground layout to go along with that Moria title I had been doing.

Maybe if I'm lucky I can finish it this weekend but that might be a bit optimistic.

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## ChickPea

Woohoo! Looking forward to this!  :Very Happy:

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## J.Edward

Hopefully I will make it interesting enough to be worth looking forward to.  :Razz:

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## J.Edward

A little more sketch and layout. Some bits I'm not thrilled with. 
Might change some of the layout.


edit - decided to scale the title. Seemed the wrong size before.

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## ChickPea

Do you draw your plan out on paper first, then scan it, and trace it from there? Is that just easier for you to get started, rather than sketching out on screen?

I can almost hear the orc drums in the background ... or maybe my music's too loud... nah, it must be orcs.

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## J.Edward

Well, sometimes I sketch it on paper first. Sometimes that's easier. But with this one it was all sketched in PS.
Not sure if it is looking like it was sketched on paper here but it wasn't.
The grid, grey lines and all are in PS. No scans on this one.
For starting sketches in PS I use a larger basic brush, like 10 pixels, where I draw usually at 5 pixels. I sketch on a layer at 30-50% opacity.
When I'm sketching I'm usually zoomed out at 25-50%. When I'm drawing detail I'm zoomed in at 100%, occasionally in to 200%.

Haha, I listen to a lot of soundtracks while I work.  :Very Happy: 
Today it has been Conan the Barbarian, Conan the Destroyer, Krull, and Gothic [by Thomas Dolby]. Sometimes I listen to medieval music or vid. game music.
Music is a big part of my day. When you're stuck in front of a comp. screen all day good motivational and mood music is important.  :Wink:

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## ChickPea

Huh, my mistake. It really looked like it was hand-drawn on paper (well, apart from the title obviously!)

And yup, music is essential, though sadly I can't listen to any at my job, so that's one perk of self-employment. I'm amused you like medieval music. I thought I was the only oddball who listened to that kind of stuff!  :Wink:  I play it mostly when I'm reading though, because it's nice background noise that isn't distracting or demanding attention. Can't beat some Gregorian chant or a nice madrigal!

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## Abu Lafia

Great to see you picked up Moria J.! Very cool layout so far. Looking forward how you work around this epic title!   :Smile:  
Btw. Conan OST seems to be a great choice to get in the right feeling to draw a map like this. I'm still getting these nostalgic goosebumb feelings of dusk-till-dawn-rpg-sessions, when i hear the drum cue(?) after the "Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis..." intro  :Very Happy:  
Has anybody ever thought about adding something like music recommendations to finished maps for even more immersion?

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## J.Edward

No worries ChickPea.  :Smile:  Nope, you're not the only oddball. 
I listen to a lot of weird stuff. Not much of it mainstream by any stretch.
I enjoy a good chant or some polyphony every so often.  :Wink: 

Thanks Abu.  :Smile:  Yep, Conan makes the rounds about every other day. Early morning or late evening.
Basil Paledouris did a great job, which has often been imitated but never exceeded. IMO.  :Very Happy: 
I think that would be pretty cool to add music recommendations though I would concede that peoples' opinions regarding music vary widely.
So what I think would work for one of my pieces might annoy the hell out of someone else.
That or they might have a very hard time even finding the piece of music I would be referring to.

I did some more on the layout and started to put down the final lines. It's a little dark and hard to see right now but that will improve with time.


edit - I just took a look and realized my next update might need to be a bit larger.
Can't really see the lines very well. Sorry about that.

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## Abu Lafia

> I think that would be pretty cool to add music recommendations though I would concede that peoples' opinions regarding music vary widely.
> So what I think would work for one of my pieces might annoy the hell out of someone else.
> That or they might have a very hard time even finding the piece of music I would be referring to.


Yeah i can see that risk too!  :Wink:  On the other hand, i guess it's pretty much the same with every aspect of the map "itself", so in the end it would add only one more (though quite unexpected) element to enrich the whole that is to be "judged" by the viewer anyways in the end.  :Smile:  ... ok, i just had to assure myself, this whole subforum is indeed titled "Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy"...phew!  :Very Happy: 




> edit - I just took a look and realized my next update might need to be a bit larger.
> Can't really see the lines very well. Sorry about that.


Lovely details! The less opaque lines are still visible. But ofc it's always great to see a larger version.

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## J.Edward

Abu - so are you looking for what music a person was listening to while making the piece? 
or what a person thinks you should listen to while viewing a piece?

Today was very ambient. Space Staion SOMA - internet radio out of San Fran. Ambient and weird stuff. 
Sometimes incredibly annoying but there are some real gems on there.
Toward the end was some Farscape soundtrack stuff.

Mostly done with the line work. A few more bits to do but not much.
Then on to color and tone, light and shadow. Then it might look like something.  :Smile: 
Slightly larger this time. Hope the details are visible. Off to read a book.

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## J.Edward

Did some more over the weekend. Still much to do.
The floor color is a placeholder. Much of that will change I think.

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## Abu Lafia

> Abu - so are you looking for what music a person was listening to while making the piece? 
> or what a person thinks you should listen to while viewing a piece?
> 
> Today was very ambient. Space Staion SOMA - internet radio out of San Fran. Ambient and weird stuff. 
> Sometimes incredibly annoying but there are some real gems on there.
> Toward the end was some Farscape soundtrack stuff.
> [...] Off to read a book.


Hey John, sorry i didn't see your reply earlier. Actually both is interesting but my initial thought was about the latter. In a sourcebook for the german rpg "DSA" ("The Dark Eye", the one Steffen is making those wonderful maps for nowadays) they included a chapter on "Background music recommendations" for the respective setting. I thought the same might be a good idea for maps too, since both (watching maps and imagining a world in a rpg) are pretty similar (hmm, i guess that's why they go so well together XD ) and music can help to underline this process. 
Thanks for giving some insight in your playlist...soma.fm seems to be a good choice for some trippy version of Moria  :Very Happy:  

So, to your last update:
It is coming together very nicely.  :Smile:  Your linework is splendid as usual (i'm always especially stunned by your cliffs...)! Will there be a hint of the "Watcher in the Water", besides in the title?

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## J.Edward

> Will there be a hint of the "Watcher in the Water", besides in the title?


Sorry Abu, I hadn't seen this post.  :Surprised: 
I'm not sure. That could be interesting. So maybe.  :Wink: 
I've been working some long hours so I haven't been able to get to any of my own maps in quite a while. Poor orphans.
Things are settling down a little bit so maybe I will be able to soon.

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