# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Building/Structure Mapping >  Morag Castle

## Tenia

Hi all,
This will be a huge map (for me): a castle/fortified village in a battlemap style. Each square of 50 pixels represents traditionally 5 feet or 1.5 meters. Here are the shapes of the main walls and towers of the first floor. I have certainely did some mistakes so I will add the buildings later after some feedback. The corridors and stairs are a bit wide for example, but I am constrained by the squares. I will then redraw all that, don't know which style i'll use yet. I will then maybe add maps of the other levels, depending of my motivation  :Wink: 
I'm a bit worry about the size of the finished map (2+ mo at 70% quality jpeg so far)
### Latest WIP ###

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## ChickPea

Interested to see what you do with this one, Tenia. Your maps are always cool.  :Smile:

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## Tenia

I don't know if it will be cool but, after two weeks without being able to do any mapping, I managed to make some progress  :Wink:  A focus on the main castle:
A sloping bridge (1) leads to the drawbridges (2) (the main one and the pedestrian) which will be overhung by machicolations from which the defenders will be able to throw all kinds of things at the attackers: not boiling oil because it is too expensive, but burning sand (very effective), pitch or cows for example.
May the attackers cross the main entrance, they will find themselves in a first inner courtyard (3) flanked by numerous arrowslits.
From the lord's stable (4), only one stock room on the first floor and one of the round towers (5) can be accessed. Most of the doors giving access to the towers are arranged in such a way that they cannot be broken down with a ram. Spiral stairs go up in clockwise direction, so that the attackers cannot use their right hand properly when climbing.
A second courtyard (6), which in peacetime serves as a training courtyard, is protected by a double door and a wall (7).
After passing through a last double gate ( :Cool: , the attackers will have access to a third courtyard (9), from where they will again be targeted by the defenders on the curtain walls (10), in the garrison rooms (11) and possibly in the chapel (12).
The ground floor of the dungeon (13) serves as a storage room and only leads to the jails in the basement by a spiral stair.
Access to the living rooms in the keep is via two retractable wooden stairs (14).
The curtain walls are only reachable by the round towers and the old square tower (15).


I am not that happy with the elevations surrounding the castle and the sloping bridge needs certainly to be redone, let me know what you think of all this.
Merry Christmas!

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## - JO -

The way to the main tower is very well defended ! Good work for the well thought defenses : no blind spot ! 

Tu as bien étudié la poliorcetique !

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## Tenia

Merci Jo  :Wink:  However, there is always the risk that a magician will teleport directly to the top floor of the dungeon and turns the paranoid count of Morag into a toad  :Frown: 
Here is where I am now, did I miss some room? Most buildings will have and second floor, mainly bedrooms, and be reassured there will be other latrines in the walls, in the upper floors  :Wink:

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## Tenia

Some linework test for the walls. It is time consuming, so I would like to wait for a possible feedback before going further if possible...

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## - JO -

OMG ! What a job !!!!
I understand the term "time consuming" ! That shows patience and obstination ! But it's worth it, in my opinion !!!!
The amount of details is mind blowing, but it gives a good "real" aspect to the map ! 
I wonder if you can use copy-paste for some walls ? I'm sure it won't show on the general map !

One thing I didn't catch, is the terrain around the whole castle : is there just a cliff on the left of the castle or there is more ?

It seems that you love castle... have you ever been to Guedelon ?

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## ThomasR

Feedback ? You want feedback ? Don't back down ! Sweat it out, it's glorious ! Once shaded, it'll be breathtaking !

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## MistyBeee

Yey, that looks amazing already ! I can't wait to see the next steps ! No feedbacks for me : it's just great !  :Smile:

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## The Lazy One

> Some linework test for the walls. It is time consuming, so I would like to wait for a possible feedback before going further if possible...


I really like where this is going, but i'm not convinced by the lines thickness: they look a bit too variable in thickness, somehow innatural to my eye. Nothing too important, just a first-glance feeling.

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## Tenia

> OMG ! What a job !!!!
> I understand the term "time consuming" ! That shows patience and obstination ! But it's worth it, in my opinion !!!!
> The amount of details is mind blowing, but it gives a good "real" aspect to the map ! 
> I wonder if you can use copy-paste for some walls ? I'm sure it won't show on the general map !


Thanks JO, I'll continue then  :Wink:  I'll see for the copy-paste, It's tempting because I don't have a lot of free time, but it's actually relaxing to draw all these lines without thinking  :Wink: 




> One thing I didn't catch, is the terrain around the whole castle : is there just a cliff on the left of the castle or there is more ?


It's supposed to be the bank of a river, I hope that will be more clear when I draw the river and color the whole thing.



> It seems that you love castle... have you ever been to Guedelon ?


Never. I heard of it but I never looked at where it was located and it's funny because it is not far away from Sancerre (btw a beautiful tower, a remnant of the city's fortifications here) where I usually go one or two times a year, so I'll probably have the opportunity to visit it this summer.



> Feedback ? You want feedback ? Don't back down ! Sweat it out, it's glorious ! Once shaded, it'll be breathtaking !


Thanks Thomas and I think I'll surely need advices for the shading!



> Yey, that looks amazing already ! I can't wait to see the next steps ! No feedbacks for me : it's just great !


thanks Bee, it encourages me



> I really like where this is going, but i'm not convinced by the lines thickness: they look a bit too variable in thickness, somehow innatural to my eye. Nothing too important, just a first-glance feeling.


Thanks The Lazy (the misnamed  :Wink:  ) One. If you mean the tapering of each line it is actually intended, else I will surely redraw the cliff around the old castle (their outline it too big among other things) and I wonder if I should thicken walls outlines? The colouring could unify the lines too, I'll see.

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## The Lazy One

> Thanks The Lazy (the misnamed  ) One. If you mean the tapering of each line it is actually intended, else I will surely redraw the cliff around the old castle (their outline it too big among other things) and I wonder if I should thicken walls outlines? The colouring could unify the lines too, I'll see.


Yes, that's quite what i was talking about. In general, all the lines have a variable thickness which is neither the comicbooky style (where the weights are more "diamond shaped", neither the ink-on-paper feel (where the thickness is quite the same but at the ends). At first glance, the feeling is maybe a bit too artificial, but i don't know how to fix that. 

Keep us updated, i'd be interested to see how the parts will merge together at the end!

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## Kellerica

I'll have to disagree with Laz, I think the varying thickness of the lineart is the very thing that gives it a certain character and makes it look like it isn't digitally generated. It doesn't bother me, actually I really like how it looks. Your hand is steady enough that it doesn't look messy.

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## Caenwyr

> I'll have to disagree with Laz, I think the varying thickness of the lineart is the very thing that gives it a certain character and makes it look like it isn't digitally generated. It doesn't bother me, actually I really like how it looks. Your hand is steady enough that it doesn't look messy.


I couldn't agree more. This linework is just awesome. I only wish I could do something like that!

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## Tenia

Thanks all! I've nearly finished the walls linework... As I work on it just once in a while the challenge is to keep the same style and pressure...

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## - JO -

Amazing work !!! I can't wait to see it with colors, shadows and all... Keep on !

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## Kellerica

What software do you use for the linework, if you don't mind me asking?

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## Tenia

> What software do you use for the linework, if you don't mind me asking?


Artrage. We can easily control aspect, rotaion, smoothing and taper of the Ink Pen tool in my opinion. Btw I've begun the year with a sciatic which makes the sitting position uncomfortable, happy new year  :Frown:  but I hope to post some progress soon...

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## Amanda91

> Thanks all! I've nearly finished the walls linework... As I work on it just once in a while the challenge is to keep the same style and pressure...


Did you use some graphic tablet or mouse only?

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## Tenia

No, no mouse  :Wink:   a watcom intuos

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## Kellerica

> Artrage. We can easily control aspect, rotaion, smoothing and taper of the Ink Pen tool in my opinion. Btw I've begun the year with a sciatic which makes the sitting position uncomfortable, happy new year  but I hope to post some progress soon...


Hmm, another recommendation for Artrage then. I really have to check it out.

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## MistyBeee

> Artrage. We can easily control aspect, rotaion, smoothing and taper of the Ink Pen tool in my opinion. Btw I've begun the year with a sciatic which makes the sitting position uncomfortable, happy new year  but I hope to post some progress soon...


Aouch... for knowing that too well, wish you a prompt recovery, Tenia. Take care !  :Frown: 




> Hmm, another recommendation for Artrage then. I really have to check it out.


Are we seeing Kellerica being disloyal to Photoshop ?! Will the sun rise in the West today ?! o_o

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## - JO -

> Btw I've begun the year with a sciatic which makes the sitting position uncomfortable, happy new year  but I hope to post some progress soon...


 Argh ! I had one of those for years, and it led to surgery... Not recommended ! take care above all thing !!!

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## Kellerica

> ... Btw I've begun the year with a sciatic which makes the sitting position uncomfortable, happy new year  but I hope to post some progress soon...


Yeah, wow. Way for me to completely glance over that last bit earlier. I'm sorry to hear that, hopefully you'll feel better soon. Don't map yourself into an early grave, now!




> Are we seeing Kellerica being disloyal to Photoshop ?! Will the sun rise in the West today ?! o_o


A little curiosity never killed anyone  :Very Happy:  Oh, don't worry, PS baby, I still love you!

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## ThomasR

Gotta try artrage again, I've been too lazy to learn how to use it properly.

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## Tenia

Hi,
I find that Artrage is a very good painting/drawing software, but beware, it lacks of some feature that many digital mapmakers would expect (layer masks, some selection tools for example)
Feel better now, the pain is almost gone. Here is a small update, at the rate I work this should be finished in several months!

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## ThomasR

You really have an awesome map in the making !

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## - JO -

Your stroke is fantastic : so precise ! I guess you spend a lot of time with this map, but it's totally worth it ! Congratulations and I'm looking forward for the next floor !!!
(by the way, will you color it ?)

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## Tenia

Thanks, yes I will color it, I think I'm going to stick to plain or with not much texture watercolor

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## Kellerica

... wait what, no layer masks in Artrage?!?! My interest is suddenly dead.

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## Tenia

> ... wait what, no layer masks in Artrage?!?! My interest is suddenly dead.


And the color management and filters are very basic too... Anyway, here are some trees tests. From left to right :
- drawn at 200% of its actual size and reduced (I wanted something blurry)
- the same with some outline after reduction
- a more stylized one

Which one goes best with the overall style of the map, should I go with even more simplified ones or completly change style ?

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## Kellerica

Hmm... I personally like the far right one the best, I think it looks like it goes best with the rest of the lineart.

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## Caenwyr

> Hmm... I personally like the far right one the best, I think it looks like it goes best with the rest of the lineart.


Yep, I second that. It'd be weird to suddenly start using skinny linework when everything else is gorgeously voluptuous  :Very Happy:

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## Tenia

OK thanks, now I am struggling with the pavement, I thought it was easy... Fool I was, keeping the style without overloading it all

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## PaperGriffin

Nice to see another ArtRage user here  :Smile:  Great looking map too.

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## Wraith13

I really like this castle.  I hope that I may use it in my home group in the future.  (We are still in the motte and bailey era.)

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## Tenia

Thanks!
A pavement test, I also addes some trees, and chopped trees near the castle not to provide cover for the assailants

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## arsheesh

Excellent linework.  Very clean and detailed, and the varied line weight really looks great.  

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## - JO -

It's really a very beautiful castle! And your work on defense architecture is excellent! 
I'm a little less fond of the courtyard paving. Maybe a more regular drawing would give better results? It is a good idea not to draw all the paving stones, but those that appear could be arranged more evenly? Not necessarily like square paving stones, with straight alignments, but still in a more regular and less random way? I think that's what made me weird to the eye at first sight. It is also true that we get used to this disposition after a while and that the proposed solution is also quite satisfactory.

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## Tenia

You are certainly true Jo, and furthermore I did a big mistake on the pavement, as I've put the pavements and the dots on the same layer, lol, a nightmare for coloring! I hope to propose soon some improvements

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## - JO -

> You are certainly true Jo, and furthermore I did a big mistake on the pavement, as I've put the pavements and the dots on the same layer, lol, a nightmare for coloring! I hope to propose soon some improvements


Argh ! Layer mistake !!!! I do so much of those.... It's so difficult to stay focus and always check on which layer I'm drawing !!! I spend so much time contouring, cutting and pasting ! It's a work as much as it's an art !

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## Tenia

Yeah, I tend to multiply layers and copies of layers to end up not knowing what they're for...
Another try here, with pavement and dots on separate layers, not too overcrowded I hope ?

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## - JO -

It's much better in my opinion ! I really identified straight away that it was pavement. And I find your choice much more consistent with the rest of the map !
I wonder what's next ? Color ? Others floors ? Looking forward anyway, it's a great castle you've got here !

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## Tenia

Yep, some coloring now. Textures and colors are certainly to be refactored, I wanted to see what it looks like in color. I am of course open to any idea for improvement. Next step will be shadowing, it scares me a little bit!

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## Gidde

That looks fantastic!! Don't be scared of shading, just put it on its own layer and you can always scrap shadows you don't like  :Smile:

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## rdanhenry

"Stables" has only one "b".

This is looking very nice colored up. It was an excellent monochrome piece, but you really have done a lovely job on both the grass and the river to make the coloring bring it further to life without diminishing the clarity.

Is there a reason that the small building by the pier isn't labeled?

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## Tenia

Thanks but I'm not satisfied with the river... The labels are not finished, ty rdand for having pointed out that

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## Adfor

> Thanks but I'm not satisfied with the river... The labels are not finished, ty rdand for having pointed out that


I really love the layout of the castle, but I have to agree about the river, something just screams "MS Paint". All those little stone tiles make the courtyard look awesome, keep it up, I want to see this finished!

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## - JO -

The color looks great! It really makes the castle alive. For the river, it seems to me that keeping this technique but making more sinuous lines should perhaps improve the situation? In any case, it's a good job!

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## Tenia

A small move, I redid the river (learning to play with Artrage custom brushes), and shadowed the walls

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## rdanhenry

You still have "stables" with an extra "b" in the key at 3.

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## XCali

Hey!

I am really liking where you are going with this. A keep map has its challenges, so it is nice seeing it progress so much.  :Razz: 

If I had to put on my nitpicking goggles, then I'd suggest darkening the paving stones(especially inside the walls) quite a tad. At the moment they jump up at you and makes the area feel too busy because of it, I feel. 

Your shadows are coming along nicely!  :Smile:  Maybe you can start adding much smaller core(darker) shadows around, close to the walls. 

Overall, this is definitely coming along nicely. And I really like what you did with the water.  :Very Happy:

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## - JO -

Wow ! It looks so nice with colors !!! Congratulations, that's a really beautiful castle !!!! And all the elements are just looking good : pavements, walls, trees and cutted trees, the river too !!!! You made an outstanding job !

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## Tenia

Thank you all  :Wink:  I'll see for the shadows, my next plan is to add some furnitures and complete/correct the legend, however I don't have enough time to move faster and I don't want it to take up too much time and get tired of it  :Wink:

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## Sterister

> A small move, I redid the river (learning to play with Artrage custom brushes), and shadowed the walls
> Attachment 115496


Looks really cool!

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## Souricette

> A small move, I redid the river (learning to play with Artrage custom brushes), and shadowed the walls
> Attachment 115496


Hummm ...
I think there is a problem with #11 latrines
Check 
- the emplacement
- the drawing

But that's really a great job !

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