# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Town/City Mapping >  Ethran: Merelan City

## Mouse

Merelan started out as a Merlish fishing village that was invaded by the Blucrans about five hundred years ago. The Blucrans discovered what they believed to be the sacred pool in which Rusaar spawned the life of their world near its peak, and they built the temple of Rusaar to protect it from the common hordes. The city grew in size owing to the steady flow of Ruzarian pilgrims, and the defeated Merles were pushed out towards the outskirts and around the harbour, where they continue to fish the surrounding ocean and feed the growing number of hungry mouths. More and more nowadays those mouths are driven to the city by hunger, not faith, since Ethran is in the grip of a deepening drought that seems to have no end. 

There is a large fish market on the flats beneath the frowning cliffs on the north side of the island, and everywhere the homes of the people are snuck up against the cliff or borrowed into it for protection from the screamers - toothless pterodactylian predators capable of scooping up the unwary... and swallowing them alive. 

This initial sketch shows the extent of the temple grounds on the peak of the island, and the ridges radiating out from that peak. I have also sketched in the names of the regional parts of the city, and marked where the observatory is on the north side of the island's cap.

Since this is the first city I have ever attempted, your advice would be most welcome  :Smile: 

These two images are the first and the current versions.

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## Mouse

The sea was putting me off, so I got rid of it.  After a hilarious conversation over the pronunciation of "Tomato" on Profantasy Forum between two of my friends there, I changed the name of the southernmost rocks to "Domada".  I'm thinking of using the idea to lighten a tense moment by having two of my protagonists argue about the pronunciation of "Domada" in two quick lines right in the middle of it.  LOL.  Having gotten rid of the sea, I was able to work in the strata that I simply forgot to remember the first time around.  This is still very much a scribble.  Things could change quite drastically before they settle down.  You haven't seen me do anything from scratch like this before  :Wink:

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## Mouse

I think I've got this thing now. A respectable coastline without looking too contrived (I hope) If it feels too top heavy right now I can balance that with heavy detailing of the water at the bottom of the map, and the shapes made by the pattern of the streets will also affect the composition a surprising amount.

This is not to say that the shape won't change after this, but just that its unlikely to go anywhere far from this:

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## ladiestorm

I'm intrigued... I've never seen your process before.  Usually you already have a large amount done before you post it.

Right now I'm seeing some interesting g contrasts. Looking forward.to seeing more. :-)

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## Mouse

Thank you Ladiestorm.  This stage is what I call the "I dunno" stage.  I get to the point where I think its ready to move on and start having some detail added to it, and then I glance at it a few hours later and think - its too square now!  (whereas before I was thinking - right, what am I going to do with this particular round blob?)

I'm sure I will have it by the end of the day, though  :Wink: 

Never give up.  Start again by all means, but never give up.

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## Mouse

This is what I do when I'm not happy with an outline, and I haven't used Fractal Terrains to get myself a decent looking coastline to start with (not that I've made _many_ maps before, but maps are not the only things I've ever made). I'm not sure what really is wrong with the shape, other than its just somehow a bit... "blocky".

Whatever it is that's actually wrong with it, I exported a bitmap of the landmass, then gave it a bit of twist and node warp until it looked about right (or at least a lot better).  Since I'm using my own lingo here for things I do in CorelDraw, I've saved 4 versions of the file to show you what I mean, and pasted them in a vertical string so you can scroll down without having to go sideways as well.

You can go too far with this sort of thing, as you will see from the fourth and last image, which looks very obviously like a warped bitmap, rather than a possible land mass.

I have chosen the third variation to take forward.  Now there will be a short break of maybe a day, while I import the bitmap back into CC3 and make a more careful and thought out tracing of the land mass.

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## Robulous

Can you change that noxious brown colour? It's rather reminding me of something I saw on the pavement earlier this morning  :Very Happy:

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## Mouse

> Robulous said: "Can you change that noxious brown colour? It's rather reminding me of something I saw on the pavement earlier this morning"


Hey.  By coincidence that just happens to be Bogie's Sand texture your negatively reping there!  LOL

These are drafts.  They could be sky-blue-pink and it wouldn't matter.  Its the line around the edge I'm working on right now  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Ok - I've traced the chosen coastline now, and I'm happy to move onto the next sheet up, which will be the ocean to go with that coastline, give or take a few sandy or rocky beaches here and there, and not forgetting the flats - the marshy area that tentatively links the island with the mainland  :Smile:

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## Mark Oliva

> Can you change that noxious brown colour? It's rather reminding me of something I saw on the pavement earlier this morning


Man!  If that's what's on your pavement, you're in a BAD neighborhood.  There are a number of them in London, but elsewhere too.  I suppose if I had to look at that stuff in the morning, I might go out of my way to insult people too.

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## Mouse

Way to go Mark!  Thank you  :Wink:

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## Redrobes

Yes - c'mon Robulous lets all stay civil around here ! I am sure it was a joke with the lol smiley etc. I mean - the whole guilds web theme is a very similar shade if you want to make those kind of comparisons...

Anyways, I think your map is coming along just fine  :Smile:

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## Mouse

> Anyways, I think your map is coming along just fine


Thank you Redrobes.  An honour to see you here  :Smile:

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## Mouse

I've put the first sheet of ocean in - the shallows.  Much of this pale green-blue ocean will be covered by further layers of deep water away from the island, and a line of surf will be shown at the shoreline where the rocks meet the water, but for now this single sheet will suffice to show the shape of the sea and the land put back together now that I have finished working on the shape of the land mass.  This image is turning out to be a bit of a hybrid of different styles.  The sand is a pale version of Bogies sand, the rock is Dundjinni cliff, and the water is my favourite so far - Herwin Weilink.  

I think its worth pointing out here that I never regard anything about a drawing as being finished until the whole drawing starts to pull together by means of a thousand different tweaks towards the end, so where you see things that don't really work all that well together right now, these will gradually be adjusted as I work through towards that point of completion.  I don't worry about textures noticeably repeating themselves (as with the cliff texture in the landmass) because worrying about something that is due to be covered up almost entirely by the next layer to go on the land is a waste of time.

Also, I am familiar with the use of the word Layer in the Photoshop sense, although in CC3 these are called Sheets, so you will catch me using both, sometimes in the same sentence.  I apologise if this is confusing.

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## Mark Oliva

Things are advancing not only nicely but also in an interesting manner.  One always looks forward to the next chapter.  I have to be careful I don't get addicted to this project.  It could be a trap, like a cartographic soap opera.  Onward and upward!

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## Mouse

I'd better start thinking up a few new characters to keep the interest going then, because I'm sat here right now scratching my head about how to depict the cliff dwellings.  LOL.  I might just chicken out of having to do that for a day or two and finish the sea first.  

None of this would have been possible without the hours of help, guidance, and mapping goodies you have provided  :Smile:

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## ladiestorm

> Things are advancing not only nicely but also in an interesting manner.  One always looks forward to the next chapter.  I have to be careful I don't get addicted to this project.  It could be a trap, like a cartographic soap opera.  Onward and upward!


Well, one good trap deserves another, wouldn't you say, Mark?  After all, you trapped Mouse and me!

Mouse,  I would say this is looking g fabulous so far!  I'm on pins and needles waiting to see how this develops!

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## Mouse

> Well, one good trap deserves another, wouldn't you say, Mark? After all, you trapped Mouse and me!
> 
> Mouse,  I would say this is looking g fabulous so far!  I'm on pins and needles waiting to see how this develops!


Yes he did, indeed!  Good point Ladiestorm  :Wink: 

I'm still strugging with a bit of a sheet problem (don't panic, its me, not the software), but I hope to have the sea sorted out soon - all bar the white bits.  I'm going to wait till the very end to do them.  It depends how 'busy' the picture looks with the city all built up in place, as to how much foam I put on the waves  :Smile:

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## Robulous

It was a joke, good grief you stiff necks need to lighten up.

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## Mouse

Version 6... I thought I'd better start numbering these, or we might get a bit confused somewhere down the line.

I've got the colours of the ocean the way I want them, but the contours are slightly off.  There needs to be a much steeper drop into the depths where the rocks disappear into the waves without any beach (I think).  I don't know really.  Its one of those things I'll probably see straight away tomorrow morning.

I added a wet sand Sheet over the beach area and used it to create damp channels across the salt marsh/market area.  Think I've just about got the colour right.

I also started adding HSL altered Bogie grass to the Flats, where the fish market is.  Not happy with the paths through it - too wide, evenly spaced and well laid out.  I have a feeling this is going to take me a very long time to complete, because to do finer detail I'm going to have to knock off the edge fade altogether and set about drawing individual clumps.  Everything on this map is a lot tinier and more detailed than I first thought it was going to be, but then, I do have to fit an entire city on the island!

Let me know if you have any thoughts on what I've done so far?

Thanks

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## ladiestorm

I'm really liking it so far! I love the ocean colors.  Not quite sure,yet, what I'm seeing g on the land, but I'm assuming that's because you haven't really developed it.

I will admit, I'm not sure how the surf will work, with the way you have the map so far....maybe if it's in just certain places, and not all the way around? Like maybe some of the inner curves of the beach?

Anyway, that's my 2cents.  :Smile: . 

Just so you all don't think I'm ignoring you, I'm headed out of town to an area with NO internet, not even my phone...so I will be out of the loop for the next 3days.

See you in the flip side!

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## mearrin69

Mouse: That water is looking pretty amazing!

Is there any way in your software to do a bit of an overlay with a secondary texture to break up the repeats in your main texture (on the rocks/mountains? If you don't know what I'm getting at I can try to amplify.
M

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## Redrobes

> It was a joke, good grief you stiff necks need to lighten up.


Errr No ! I don't think so.

I know it was a joke. I even said so. And I know that you like a bit of a jape with maps such as Valpolicella and the Brexit satire etc, I found those quite humourous and I said that in those threads too. But theres a difference. On them it was your own work or satire at the world. This time its different. When you say "your map looks like a turd" its a personal attack on somebody's work, and in their ability, and as such, in them personally. Personal attacks are against the rules of the forum and I would remind everyone to re-familiarize themselves with them if they are unsure about them.

Offense was taken by several independent members and then moderators get notified and I happened to be online. Now I want to assure everybody that personal attacks will not be tolerated. I will not be told to lighten up by the perpetrators of it when it happens. Robulous, you are out of order for making either of your two comments and the issue here is that whilst I know you think its a joke you don't understand that it was offensive because it was at the expense of someones work.

We can let it slide to some small degree but I will not see this site descend to YouTube comment standards.

Now - unless there is an apology to be made I don't want to see any more remarks made regarding this.

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## Mouse

> I'm really liking it so far! I love the ocean colors.  Not quite sure,yet, what I'm seeing g on the land, but I'm assuming that's because you haven't really developed it.
> 
> I will admit, I'm not sure how the surf will work, with the way you have the map so far....maybe if it's in just certain places, and not all the way around? Like maybe some of the inner curves of the beach?
> 
> Anyway, that's my 2cents. . 
> 
> Just so you all don't think I'm ignoring you, I'm headed out of town to an area with NO internet, not even my phone...so I will be out of the loop for the next 3days.
> 
> See you in the flip side!


The sea is my thing, Ladiestorm.  I live within sight of it.  I love it, and can't be without it.  I still have a lot of work to do everywhere on the map, including the sea, but I'll bear what you say about the surf in mind.  

The land on this map is another matter.  Most of what you see in version 6 will disappear - has already disappeared in fact because I changed the texture this morning before I could get online.  I'm having a tussle with it, that's for sure.  I want to do relief shading like I did with the Ethran map, but the method isn't quite working with the city concept right now, so on the next few versions the land will probably go through some pretty hectic changes in appearance before I'm happy with the result.

Enjoy your break from the web world  :Wink:   See you soon!

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## Mouse

> Mouse: That water is looking pretty amazing!
> 
> Is there any way in your software to do a bit of an overlay with a secondary texture to break up the repeats in your main texture (on the rocks/mountains? If you don't know what I'm getting at I can try to amplify.
> M


Hi Mearrin69.  I don't think we've had the pleasure yet?  Welcome to the _surprisingly_ stormy seas of Ethran: Merelan City  :Wink:   LOL

I agree with you.  Version 6 really shouts "Hey - I'm a repeating texture" doesn't it.  It's ever so slightly... a bit "loud".

The thing is that most of what you see is about to be covered over by grass, trees, roads, paths and buildings, and needs to be fairly rough where it does show, so that its readily identifiable as rock, rather than a bit of a path or cobbled way that just got put there by mistake.

I have, as yet, no idea how I'm going to generate the cliffs on this scale - the thousand foot cliffs that drop from the observatory down to the Flats.  It was easy enough to do that with layers of symbol rocks alternating with layers of grass in the plan of Merelan Observatory, but that isn't going to be feasible here.

I'm working on it  :Wink:

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## Bogie

Hey Mouse, nice work so far.  If you are going to put a lot of grass & construction over the rocks it should break up the repetitiveness of the texture.  That is one of the problems with cgTexures ( or whatever they call themselves now )  their seamless tiles are nice but get very repetitive.  I think you will be fine once get more on the map.

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## Mouse

> Hey Mouse, nice work so far.  If you are going to put a lot of grass & construction over the rocks it should break up the repetitiveness of the texture.  That is one of the problems with cgTexures ( or whatever they call themselves now )  their seamless tiles are nice but get very repetitive.  I think you will be fine once get more on the map.


Hey Bogie. Thanks for dropping by.  Welcome to Merelan City  :Smile:  I'm afraid I can't offer you a drink.  I don't have any taverns just yet, but welcome all the same.

Some textures are better than others, and I think this one was one of the more spectacular DundJinni "Cliff" textures - its a really great texture, but you only need to see it in small amounts at a time.  For the time being, and so I can work on it without getting blinded by the pattern, I have changed everything to Herwin Wielink "land brown light" and adjusted the HSL to make it look more like limestone.  Its a nice calm pattern that's far more subtle than this one.  LOL

Loving your grass textures, Bogie  :Wink:

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## mearrin69

Mouse: Cool. That's more or less what I meant anyway. Once you get some stuff over top of the repeats you won't see them as much or at all. Keep going, it looks great.

Also, have some rep from me.

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## Mouse

> Mouse: Cool. That's more or less what I meant anyway. Once you get some stuff over top of the repeats you won't see them as much or at all. Keep going, it looks great.
> 
> Also, have some rep from me.


Aw thanks mearrin69.  That's very generous of you  :Smile: 

I kind of thought that was what you meant, but I've had a busy morning and my head was spinning a bit.  Quite apart from anything else, I lost the main Ethran map and had to reconstruct it from a half way draft.  Put me back a good few hours, so I haven't really done very much to Merelan City today.  I'll see if it looks any different a bit later on.

Thanks again  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Ok.  This is version 7.... well... um... part of it.  The top left hand quarter of it to be exact.

We all have our little ways with maps, and I'm afraid one of mine is to start fiddling with the details waaaay too soon.

Nothing much has changed over the rest of the map, except that I have changed the land texture to something altogether more soothing - a nice fake limestone effect  :Wink: 

I started to mess around with the idea of using bevels for the cliffs, and spent a great deal of time trying to add bevel layer upon bevel layer, getting gradually more and more frustrated. But then I suddenly just hit it somehow by adding the first layers of dry grass and accidentally overlapping an underlying bevel layer.  This is shown in the top right hand corner to best effect.  Unfortunately I only discovered this about half an hour ago, so I haven't really managed to take advantage of the effect.  I got kind of distracted with perfecting the little paths through the shanty town and trying to make them look realistic, and then I got distracted by the placement of trees and tents and the shadows they cast... and so on, and so forth.  

I think that admiring that rather gorgeous map of Kharoun by Abu has rubbed off on me.  I don't usually cover the page in orange grass, but got a bit carried away LOL.  Don't know whether I will leave it that way, or turn it a bit more yellow and traditional.

What do you think?

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## mearrin69

Actually, I really dig the rusty-looking grass. I haven't read your backstory but it might be perfectly fine in your world. 

Texture repeats are under control and the first buildings are looking great.

The center-top bevel is very strong. Could be what you're looking for. I would tend to go a bit softer...but it'll look good no matter how strong you want to make it.
M

Edit: Went back and read your story. You're already bringing the pain for these people. Make their grain fields infested with some sort of insidious russet mold and you've got your rusty fields.  :Wink:

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## Mouse

> Actually, I really dig the rusty-looking grass. I haven't read your backstory but it might be perfectly fine in your world. 
> 
> Texture repeats are under control and the first buildings are looking great.
> 
> The center-top bevel is very strong. Could be what you're looking for. I would tend to go a bit softer...but it'll look good no matter how strong you want to make it.
> M
> 
> Edit: Went back and read your story. You're already bringing the pain for these people. Make their grain fields infested with some sort of insidious russet mold and you've got your rusty fields.


Thanks Mearrin69.  I like the rusty grass too, and I might just leave it that way without explaining it.  I think these people have enough to deal with just trying to work out how to cross the void to the green and visibly flourishing twin planet, Errispa, bearing in mind that their civilisation is medieval - never mind a horrible plague or three LOL.

The bevel was driving me crazy all afternoon.  There's a control on the sheet effect (layer) that I think is supposed to round off the top, but it doesn't seem to work on my machine.  I will put a question to the CC3 techs tomorrow and see if there's anything that can be done about it.  In the meantime I think the only thing I can do is cover all the flat tops with vegetation, buildings and roads so that you can't see the edge.  The alternative is to just build the whole thing like a flat pack island (without any relief shading at all), and then add the shadow on the far side of everything with a single carefully drawn transparent screen.  Not sure I'm good enough to do it right, but I'll see if I pick up any ideas from your videos as to how, or perhaps an alternative plan  :Smile:

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## Mouse

On second thoughts...  I really appreciate your input to this project Mearrin69, but I've been doing some thinking over night and have decided that orange grass in this context would probably cause too much of a distraction, when what I really want to do is map a city.

So... I've been unbelievably busy today... sorting out 24 different shades of grass  :Smile: 

These are for the ten cliff levels I will need to create the island properly. Although I really liked my orange grass I know where the inspiration came from, and its a completely different kind of map. With this city map I should be more interested in the city plan and not so distracted by all the pretty colours! LOL

The long lines of grass at the bottom of this screen shot are the standard healthy grasses (short and long) to be used near waterways. The rest are a series of gradations up to the driest peak of the island from right to left.

I have also decided to do away with the bevel altogether, and go with the classic Shessar style cliff (Shessar is the user name of an excellent cartographer on the Profantasy Forum, who has developed several unique styles, the most locally famous being her cliff and stream tutorial).  I only hope I do you justice, Shessar  :Wink: 

EDIT:  I am also working on a massive drainage pattern for the salt marsh, and fully expect to be firmly ticked off about it by the river police when I do upload the next proper map, since I've only ever been average where rivers are concerned  :Wink:

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## Mouse

Version 8.

This is the top right hand corner reworked.  (its a smaller area, not even 1/4 of the map)

I got rid of the mainland coastline because it wasn't working as a background for the very large salt marsh area, that makes up the Flats.  Roads, trees and shanty towns will all have to be added back in, but this was what I was trying to create before.

Things sometimes change quite drastically in my maps.  I work on the principle that nothing is sacred.

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## Mouse

Version 9

Slow going.  Its all those wiggly bits in the salt marsh, but at least its done now.

Small point - something doesn't feel right.  I don't know whether its a scale issue, or what, but I'm open to comment.

How big should a bridge be?  I mean a plank bridge for example, in comparison with the size of the salt marsh gullies.  Would you think that the three main river systems running through this marsh might be crossed on a simple plank bridge, or would a much more substantial stone bridge be required?

EDIT: I've had some response from another forum and now realise that my trees are too big, given the scale of the city  :Wink:   It appears, therefore, that I have yet to finish the marsh, never mind the shanty towns that have recently sprung up on it.

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## Mouse

Version 10

An experiment with a different kind of bevel...

Not sure what I really think of it yet.  This one uses false lighting, so I have to arrange the global sun so that it strikes the rest of the map in the right direction to agree with the false lighting of the bevel.  

The cliff technique is based on Shessar's classic cliff technique, modified by the bevel.

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## Mouse

Version 11

Gravel ROCKS!  Oh yeah...

I was having trouble with the land looking like it was floating over the sand, and I wasn't 100% happy with the bevel effect on the cliffs, so I didn't add any more to the map.  I don't want to go too far down that road if its wrong in the end.  I messed around with different textures for the cliffs and found what I think is a better one, since it doesn't show those sharp little flicks of greater contrast on the sharper bends of the bevel quite so much.

I think a little more work with the vegetation sandwiched between the layers of the cliff should ease the stepped appearance a bit, but I'm not really working at that level of detail just yet.  

The gravel? well, it was Lorelei's idea, and it really rocks!  its weighing the island down to the sand and attaching it quite nicely.  A rather unexpected but pleasing side effect is the way it appears to sink beneath the waterline and lie on the floor of the bay.

Gravel most definitely rocks, Lorelei.  Thank you!

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## Mouse

Version 12

Redesign.

The composition of the map as a whole was pretty satisfactory, but I realised the city was going to be only about half the area of the map, so I enlarged the island and shifted the whole image south west to place its centre at the centre of the map (or more or less) - a nerve-wracking experience, considering there were some 2729 objects all selected and being transformed at the same time, but Fastcad (the power behind CC3) is pretty neat the way it handles these things, so we were fine.

I also drafted in the grass on all the different layers to start the shaping of the main part of the island.  Its very crude at the moment and resembles in many ways those cardboard layer-cake type models we used to make from contour maps back at school, but these are still very early days, and there is a lot of blending work to be done.

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## Neyjour

Wow... this looks fantastic so far!  :Smile: 

Your water is absolutely gorgeous.  Not just the caustics/texture, but the beautiful colour as well, and the illusion of clarity.  It reminds me of home (the Bahamas) a _lot_.

My favourite parts at the moment are the sand/beaches, the smaller rock between the main land and the marsh (love the blending of water and gravel around it!), and the marsh itself.  That marsh looks so cool, and it keeps drawing my eye.  I don't know what it is exactly, but the squiggly, organic look is really fascinating.

Beautiful work!  I can't wait to see what this is going to look like when it's finished.  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Hey Neyjour!  

Nice of you to drop by... and I still haven't built that tavern, but welcome to the Merelan City construction site!

The water is just four layers with different extents of the same rather lovely Herwin Wielink sea texture on them, differentiated by HSL settings.  They all have a hefty edge fade on them, which gives the coastal water that all-important transparency.  That it worked so well is one of those mysterious accidents I seem to keep having... (like falling in the proverbial pool yesterday!)

I've been avoiding having to start on the island by polising all the details around it for some time.  The marsh is one of my favourite places to dawdle, so its much more polished than anything else.  LOL  Its really just two layers - one of moss, and one of long grass with exactly the same objects, but with an edge fade to the middle of each object on the long grass layer.  Not sure how that would translate to Photoshop speak, but what it does is it makes the long grass appear only around the edge of each shape, so that the water ways seem to be lined with long grass.

Anyway.  Its taken me an inordinately long time to get this far, so I think you may have to wait quite a while to see the finished thing.  I should probably get back to the map and get on with it!  LOL

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement.  They are much appreciated  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version... umm... 14 (so we don't touch on that other number that ends in 3)

Because the island is so steep, there is little point in owning a cart if you live on Merelan.  However, the moment you leave the island there is a large wainwright established opposite a tavern at the beginning of the road leading north, where you can buy or rent your transport.  Travellers arriving at Merelan frequently rest in the tavern at the end of the mainland stage of their journey, before crossing the Riffle (oops, I've removed the name of the straights from the map) and starting up the steep and unforgiving slopes of the island.

The wall across the northern lowland coast of the island might appear to be oddly placed... until you realise its only there to keep the rabble of climate refugees gathered in the shanty towns on the marsh (yet to be redrawn) out of the city.

Scale has been an issue from the beginning, and once the first couple of buildings went on, I accepted the fact that was pointed out to me by a friend on another forum - that the "gravel" looked more like massive boulders in comparison, and changed the scale of the texture.  Because reducing the scale meant having those horrible repeating patterns reappear, I changed the texture for sand-soil, and altered the HSL settings to make it _look_ like gravel (I hope).

I have more work to do on the water, now that the scale has been established.  The breakers are too large and widely spaced.

EDIT:  Higher res image uploaded.  Also - just noticed the error occurring on the round lookout towers along the wall.  This is part of the software problem I was having earlier today.  Hope to have it resolved by tomorrow.

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## Mouse

Where is version 15?  

Please accept my apologies if you happen to be following this thread, but I'm having a few technical problems with my PC right now, and will not be able to continue work on the Merelan City map until these are resolved.

Thank you

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## Neyjour

> Hey Neyjour!  
> 
> Nice of you to drop by... and I still haven't built that tavern, but welcome to the Merelan City construction site!
> 
> The water is just four layers with different extents of the same rather lovely Herwin Wielink sea texture on them, differentiated by HSL settings.  They all have a hefty edge fade on them, which gives the coastal water that all-important transparency.  That it worked so well is one of those mysterious accidents I seem to keep having... (like falling in the proverbial pool yesterday!)
> 
> I've been avoiding having to start on the island by polising all the details around it for some time.  The marsh is one of my favourite places to dawdle, so its much more polished than anything else.  LOL  Its really just two layers - one of moss, and one of long grass with exactly the same objects, but with an edge fade to the middle of each object on the long grass layer.  Not sure how that would translate to Photoshop speak, but what it does is it makes the long grass appear only around the edge of each shape, so that the water ways seem to be lined with long grass.
> 
> Anyway.  Its taken me an inordinately long time to get this far, so I think you may have to wait quite a while to see the finished thing.  I should probably get back to the map and get on with it!  LOL
> ...


You're welcome.   :Smile: 

I hope you'll be able to sort out the problems you've been having with your comp and program.  It's really upsetting when things like that happen...   :Frown: 

I use Feathering in PaintShop Pro for what you call "edge fade".  It's a fantastic way to get different textures to blend and transition well with each other.  I use it all the time in my maps.  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

> You're welcome.  
> 
> I hope you'll be able to sort out the problems you've been having with your comp and program.  It's really upsetting when things like that happen...  
> 
> I use Feathering in PaintShop Pro for what you call "edge fade".  It's a fantastic way to get different textures to blend and transition well with each other.  I use it all the time in my maps.


I think Mark Oliva and the Profantasy team have managed to sort me out, now, so I'm back at work on the city, thanks  :Wink: 

I really like "feather" - prefer it to "edge fade", but if I started talking about "feathering" stuff I'd just confuse everyone even more.  Most people have gotten too used to me calling it an "inner edge fade".  It was bad enough when I started interchanging the terms "Sheet" and "Layer", because unbeknown to you we also have Layers in CC3+ - Layers AND Sheets, and the two are not the same thing, although our _Sheets_ are probably closer to your Layers, than our Layers are.  LOL.

I don't know if the ocean effect would be possible for you then, because I don't know if a feather allows you to start with a transparency of about 80 right on the edge and go towards solid in the middle (which is what I've done with the shallow water sheet effect).

It would be interesting to know...

----------


## - JO -

I hope your computer issues will soon be over !

Because I had an idea : Have you tried to put no effect on the first layer of the island ? no shadow, no glow ?

Maybe it's already the case... if yes, forget about that idea... Otherwise, it might help to put the island more "on the ground", or help avoiding the "floating" effect of the island above water and sand...

I wish you the best with your computer !

----------


## Mouse

> I hope your computer issues will soon be over !
> 
> Because I had an idea : Have you tried to put no effect on the first layer of the island ? no shadow, no glow ?
> 
> Maybe it's already the case... if yes, forget about that idea... Otherwise, it might help to put the island more "on the ground", or help avoiding the "floating" effect of the island above water and sand...
> 
> I wish you the best with your computer !


Hello Jo  :Smile: 

Your idea is worth considering, and I certainly shall have another look at my floating island problem, although I was rather hoping that my gravel would solve it.  

However, it's early days yet, and there is still a lot of potential for change.  The map is by no means in any kind of a "stable" state, although this has nothing to do with the software issue (which was largely my own fault as it turns out).

Thank you for your suggestion  :Wink:

----------


## Neyjour

> I think Mark Oliva and the Profantasy team have managed to sort me out, now, so I'm back at work on the city, thanks 
> 
> I really like "feather" - prefer it to "edge fade", but if I started talking about "feathering" stuff I'd just confuse everyone even more.  Most people have gotten too used to me calling it an "inner edge fade".  It was bad enough when I started interchanging the terms "Sheet" and "Layer", because unbeknown to you we also have Layers in CC3+ - Layers AND Sheets, and the two are not the same thing, although our _Sheets_ are probably closer to your Layers, than our Layers are.  LOL.
> 
> I don't know if the ocean effect would be possible for you then, because I don't know if a feather allows you to start with a transparency of about 80 right on the edge and go towards solid in the middle (which is what I've done with the shallow water sheet effect).
> 
> It would be interesting to know...


I'm glad you're back in business!   :Smile: 

I'm not familiar with "sheets", but just assumed it was a program-specific term for "layers".  It's interesting to know that they're not the same, and that you do have both.  Hmmm...  :Question: 

I've never tried to make one full layer have a transparency "falloff" around the edges.  I usually cut out pieces from a texture (with the Freehand Selection tool), Feather them, and then add those layers on top of another texture.  Or, I simply feather the the edge of a texture where i want it to transition with the one below it.

It's a bit of a work-around (there might be an easier way to do it that I'm not aware of), but I found a way to do an 80% opacity edge effect.  I opened a texture and reduced the layer opacity to 80%.  In another workspace, I opened the same texture, made smaller rectangular selection in the center and gave it an Outside Feather of 60 - enough that it would have a very smooth transition, but not actually extend to the edges of the full texture.  I then copied the Feathered portion and pasted in onto the top of the original (80% opacity) texture.  Then merged the two layers into one with "Merge Visible" (to maintain the opacity).

Here's the result:


I'm glad this came up!  It's something I'd never thought of doing before, and I definitely think It'll be useful for future maps.   :Smile: 

EDIT:  That previous attachment doesn't make the opacity apparent.  Here's a screenshot of it in PaintShop Pro, where you can see the opacity squares showing through at the edges:

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## Mouse

Oh WOW, Neyjour.  Everything you do is so beautiful!

You've kind of knocked the hat off my humble little ocean with that.  Its gorgeous, and I want to go for a swim...  LOL

I'm very flattered, however, that you feel you found the idea right here  :Very Happy: 

EDIT: Now I really am going to have to start studying GIMP (can't afford Photoshop)

----------


## Neyjour

> Oh WOW, Neyjour.  Everything you do is so beautiful!
> 
> You've kind of knocked the hat off my humble little ocean with that.  Its gorgeous, and I want to go for a swim...  LOL
> 
> I'm very flattered, however, that you feel you found the idea right here


Hehe!  Thanks, but I can't take credit for the texture.   :Razz:   I just snagged a nice one out of my collection for this test.  

It really _is_ a beautiful texture!  If you'd like to download it, go here:
Texture Mr. Under Water by E-DinaPhotoArt

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## Mouse

That's a really nice piece of texture, but it doesn't look as good without your work added to it  :Smile: 

I can see a future filled with maps that have oceans with transparent shores!  LOL

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## Mouse

Version 15:

In this version (and its only the north west quarter because the detail has become too fine for me to show you all the map at the same time any more), quite apart from adding the first shanty towns by marking them with a rather restricted set of tents, I have also refined and improved the marsh itself, so that it now looks more like a marsh than before (I hope). The fun part was adding all the miles and miles of footpaths.  Drove me crazy just imagining where all these tiny ant sized people might walk or take their regular short cuts between all the shanty towns, but I'm glad I did.  It might look like a mess, but hey - this is basically a refugee camp I'm trying to depict right here on the marsh.

I aim to find or make a few new tent styles to mix and match with the existing ones, but this will do for the time being.  If you have a suggestion for varying the detail to make this patch look a bit more interesting (bearing in mind that we are already enlarged to maximum scale output here), please feel free to make them. 

I changed my mind about the copper roofs on the guard towers. These are only guards we're talking about, not royalty. The copper roofing will adorn the Temple of Rusaar, right at the centre of the island, along with its vast geodesic dome of glass  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Version 16

A tunnel under Jamne Head so that travellers can cross the Riffle (name of the straits still missing, sorry), and a draft road layout on the north of the island.  Progress really slow.  Dealing with 78 Sheets and approximately 150 sheet effects on this map owing to the cliffs.

----------


## Mark Oliva

As I mentioned on the PF forum, this is the best graphical quality overland map that I've ever seen done with CC3+.  I'm glad you posted here, so that one can get better resolution than at the PF forum.  The detail now is visible.  However, that also gives me the opportunity to pick the smallest of nits: You appear to have the covered bridge on the wrong sheet.  All of the other structures thrown CC3+ global sun shadows.  The bridge appears to have no shadow.  Nix für Ungut!

----------


## Mouse

Why, thank you, Mark - keine genommen, and welcome back to the very slow construction of Merelan City.  I think we may have something of a labour problem down on the ground!

The covered bridge is indeed on the same sheet as the considerably more level stone bridge across the Riffle towards the new tunnel through Jamne Head.  I took the shadow off because it was making the flat bridge stand on one end, and then forgot to move the covered bridge to a different sheet.  The only shadow on the bridge sheet is the fake one I put under the flat bridge to lift it off the floor of the Riffle.

Thanks for spotting it  :Smile: 

As for the quality - a lot of the credit for that must go to all the people who have contributed so many high quality textures and symbols in the form of the new Vintyri Collection with Bogie's Mapping Objects.  I'd be really lost without them!  The only thing I made sure I didn't do, was blow everything up too large to look nice... which is extremely tempting, given the quality of the aforesaid graphics.  I have drawn very little by hand myself in this map - the outline of each fill, the ripples in the ocean, the weed on the shore... and all those myriad tiny footpaths in the north.  The rest is down to object quality and placement, and of course the ever present sheet effects.

I am sometimes tempted to upload a rendering of the entire map with the sheet effects turned off, since I am certain that people would be _totally shocked_ if they knew just how much the entire arrangement depended so heavily on CC3+ processing power   LOL.

Thank you again, Mark  :Smile:

----------


## - JO -

I approve : let's make an album of all our CC3 map... without the effects !

That would be modern art  :Very Happy: 

Amazing work on your map ! I totally agree with you : working on CC3 pushes you to put every little detail on the map, since the more you zoom in, the more (often) it look good ! That sais, I wonder how long you have to wait each time you check your map with the effects on ?
Regarding you computer power, it makes you learn patience to work on CC3... Sometimes, I take a book and just read half a page during rendering...

Anyway, I can't wait to see your next WIP !

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## Mouse

LOL!  Thank you Jo  :Smile: 

Jo, the map relies so heavily on effects that I really cannot see to work without them.  And just to shock everyone, I have no qualms about showing the truth behind all the smoke and mirrors.

The only difference between this map and the one above (give or take a few small boats in the harbour) are the effects.

As for rendering?  I usually find a good cup of tea does the trick, but then when I do a render I have to do it at 10,000 x 10,000, then reduce by 50% in CorelPaint (which gives me more control over the antialiasing) to preserve the detail in the map  :Smile: 

Hmmmn... A CC3+ community album, eh?  Now that's an interesting thought.  Our maps do tend to have a unique style about them, as opposed to maps drawn in Photoshop or any of the other graphics packages, just because of the way they are made.  I wonder if it would be worth looking into that possibility - a shared album...

----------


## - JO -

I second that !

And I recognize well the typical CC3 work table... Some color stains that comes from nowhere, some big texture... It's so far from the final result that it makes me smile each time !

Earlier, I was refering to the time each change takes (even when you move up or down, or zoom in or out) when your effects are "on"... Each time, my computer compute for almost 1 minute (regarding the map I'm working on...)
Is it the same for you ?

----------


## Mouse

I think that's because I work with CC3+, not CC3.  I think some changes were made between the two pieces of software that hugely increased the processing speed, because I don't have a delay problem zooming or moving around - at least, not until I get nearly 80 sheets and 150 effects into the action (as with this map), but even then its certainly not as slow as you say CC3 is!  It only takes about a second to respond when I zoom, which isn't much really, considering all those 'live' recalculations that have to be done with all 150 effects and 78 sheets fully switched on  :Smile: 

Have you experimented with working with CC3+ yet?  It's a heck of a lot faster than CC3!

----------


## - JO -

Yes, I installed CC3+ a while ago, but when I tried to open my CC3 maps in CC3+, all was wrong : a lot of symbols weren't found, layers were wrong... That really looked as modern art. So, I kept using CC3 (for Alycrau). And then I went on Photoshop to remake old maps that I made on CC3.

But I spent a few minutes clicking around CC3+... and I liked it very much : new fonctions I'm really looking forward to use (as the fonction which is like contour lines - I think you used it for the present map ?) And I'm looking forward to start new maps with CC3+. I have particulary one in mind : in the novel my wife wrote, some action takes place in an inn, along a road. So it's a very detailed map of just a group of buildings on the top of a hill... CC3+ might be a good help for this one.

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## Mouse

Before you start any new maps in CC3+, and just in case you haven't already done so, it might be as well to get the latest updates (I think we are up to 7 & 8 which were released just recently), and download and install the new Vintyri Collection with Bogie's mapping objects.  Take care to install these in strict accordance with the instruction manuals that come with them.

The contouring effect is a combination of bevels used on a series of 7 sets of sheets - 7 levels.  I was once going to have 10, but that turned out to be far too many.  The layers are more of an accident than a deliberate attempt at creating a contour map.  I was in fact attempting to create cliffs... but, well... sometimes accidents just end up becoming part of a map, and they _have_ rather grown on me in the while that its been since they first appeared  :Smile:

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## - JO -

Thanks for the tips !

I've downloaded and installed the update (I have to check if it's the latest), and I have downloaded the Vintyri collection, but I haven't instelled it yet... It seemed a bit complicated to me, so I have to fellow the manual very carefully... and it's in english.. But I've seen it's worth it

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## Mouse

You might want to look at the most recent threads on PF before you do anything.  We ironed out a few little wrinkles there, and if you get stuck, or something goes wrong, Vintyri/Mark Oliva, should be able to help.

These marvellous graphics packages are for CC3+ by the way.  I don't think they work with CC3, but I'm sure that Mark will say if I've got that wrong  :Wink:

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## ChickPea

> Hmmmn... A CC3+ community album, eh?  Now that's an interesting thought.  Our maps do tend to have a unique style about them, as opposed to maps drawn in Photoshop or any of the other graphics packages, just because of the way they are made.  I wonder if it would be worth looking into that possibility - a shared album...


Sorry to butt into the conversation, but I noticed this comment.

There's a 'Groups' forum feature that might be what you're looking for. There are a few groups already, though they don't seem to get used that much, but maybe this could help revive interest. You can see the overview here:

https://www.cartographersguild.com/group.php

I noticed there's one that's had recent posts: Artisan Maps- mapping by hand in the classic tradition. That one shows some images in an album and shows what you can do, and might help you decide if this is suitable for what you'd like.

If you want to create a group, go ahead. I don't _think_ you need mod rights to do it, but if there are any issues, let me know.  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Hello ChickPea!  Welcome to the Merelan City development experience  :Smile: 

I think Jo and myself are the only two of similar mind on this matter right at this moment.  Although I have heard that there is a third who _may_ be interested.  If other CC3 mappers express an interest in the idea of a communal "Look no effects album", or even just an album showing our collective maps in finished form all in one place, then this might be the way to go forward.  It depends how we all feel about people seeing our work with everything stripped away, but I think it would be fascinating to examine the different things that each of us do with the same set of effects at our disposal.

Thank you for pointing us in the right direction  :Smile:

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## ChickPea

It'd be nice to show other CC3 mappers what can be done with the software. A showcase, if you like, here at the Guild.

I'll leave it up to you to decide. If you need help, just holler.  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Thank you ChickPea, we will  :Smile:

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## - JO -

That could be fun !  :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:

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## ladiestorm

Sorry, I had to go back pretty far.to follow the conversation.   I like the idea of a cc3/+ community album....both just a simple album, AND the before/ after effects!  And I think for the second one, we should show two versions...without the effects, and with...so people see what cc3+ really does.

I also think it would be great to have a cc3+ group!  There are quite a few of us...and we all have our different ways and styles.  There are so many that normally 'don't care for' or 'aren't fond of' cc3+ maps for various reasons.... But I think if they saw all of the different ways it can be used...they would be impressed.

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## ladiestorm

Oh, and Mouse,  this map gets more and more extraordinary every time you post!  This map is going to be epic when you are.done.  My turn for the envy!!! Lol

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## Mouse

> That could be fun !


Well I'll take that as two in favour, including myself  :Smile: 




> Sorry, I had to go back pretty far.to follow the conversation.   I like the idea of a cc3/+ community album....both just a simple album, AND the before/ after effects!  And I think for the second one, we should show two versions...without the effects, and with...so people see what cc3+ really does.
> 
> I also think it would be great to have a cc3+ group!  There are quite a few of us...and we all have our different ways and styles.  There are so many that normally 'don't care for' or 'aren't fond of' cc3+ maps for various reasons.... But I think if they saw all of the different ways it can be used...they would be impressed.


Make that three....  :Smile: 




> Oh, and Mouse,  this map gets more and more extraordinary every time you post!  This map is going to be epic when you are.done.  My turn for the envy!!! Lol


LOL.  Storm, you have no need to worry.  Cathoulla City is starting to look really grand itself.  And you know what?  I'm having the most dastardly hard time trying to plan where everything goes.  I keep starting on adding buildings, then deleting them, then adding them back again... and so on!  It could even take as long as a real city to get this map right!

But thanks for the compliment  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 17

After all the glowing things that have been said about all the detail, I'm afraid this is going to be a relatively low res image, because I need to be able to show you the whole island today.

The roads, which have been driving me quietly round and round in ever decreasing circles today (or even round the bend), are now very crudely sketched in as a first draft, just to show their approximate position.  I have also added the first buildings that I haven't seen fit to immediately delete again  :Smile: 

The red line around the area at the top of the island denotes the approximate position and size of the Sayer's compound, where the most holy of shrines, the Pool of Life, lies beneath the Temple of Rusaar.

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## ladiestorm

Wow, Mouse, you've been busy!  At the risk of repeating myself... This is looking fabulous!!!  I'm glad to see the roads and buildings start to emerge.  As I said before, this place is going to be epic!!!  I better get a move on, or your map will be completed before mine!

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## Mouse

> Wow, Mouse, you've been busy! At the risk of repeating myself... This is looking fabulous!!! I'm glad to see the roads and buildings start to emerge. As I said before, this place is going to be epic!!! I better get a move on, or your map will be completed before mine!


Well thank you, Storm  :Very Happy: 

You _are_ kidding aren't you - mine completed before yours?  Now that I've started putting all my tiny-teeny-itsy-bitsy little polka dot houses in, I'm beginning to realise just how much it takes to make a city!  LOL

Besides, I'm only working on this right at the moment.  I think you must have at least three projects on the go right now, if my memory serves me right  :Wink:

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## snodsy

This is really nice, really like the top left corner are. I wonder if the texture should change, the top area, the texture seems a little to dominate.  Love the water! Looking forward to seeing this finished.

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## ThomasR

I'm not usually a fan of CC3 maps but you did a great job here !

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## Mouse

Version 18

The City of Merelan started out as a Merlish fishing village, and was invaded by the Blucrans about 500 years ago.  The pool that just happened to be situated near the summit of the island, on a thin bed of clay, was declared to be the most holy site of the Pool of Life, where it is claimed that Rusaar spawned the First.  The pool was covered by the Temple of Rusaar, and the Blucran Sayers (warrior monks) set up their places of office in close proximity.  For this reason there are no town halls or places of local government anywhere else on the island - not even just inside the city gate.  Instead you ride straight into the city, where you will soon discover that the impressive façade of grand houses built by the Merlish slaves for their new Blucran masters, soon peter out into the more natural island style of humble thatched homesteads - clustered in their serried rows all up and down the terraced steps of the cliffs.... 

I only got as far as the first couple of terraces, but I think its going ok  :Smile: 

Oh yes! I _have_ noticed the strange little building at the extreme right of the map which appears to have no shadow, but I didn't have time to render it all out again before dinner.  It's on the wrong Sheet (layer)  :Wink: 

EDIT: Added a full image reference.

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## Mouse

> This is really nice, really like the top left corner are. I wonder if the texture should change, the top area, the texture seems a little to dominate.  Love the water! Looking forward to seeing this finished.





> I'm not usually a fan of CC3 maps but you did a great job here !


I can't believe it!  You BOTH ninja'd me!  ROFL

Welcome to the most chaotic construction site you have ever seen in your life!  But I do have a tavern now - in fact I have four, so help yourselves to a drink  :Smile: 

@Snodsy - thanks for the compliment, and I agree - it is all a bit the same, but I will see if it needs to be worked on once I have completed the city.  I also have to find/make a greater variety of tent and shacks! 

@thomrey - thank you.  CC3 maps are not everyone's cup of tea, but they are certainly mine  :Wink:

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## Neyjour

Oh wow... you've done a lot of work since I last checked!  Looking good!!  :Smile:   Can't wait to see a zoomed out version with all the new buildings and such.

I really like how you've done your roads.  The paths look especially good... very organic and natural.  They really have the look and feel of being worn in by countless footsteps.  :Very Happy:

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## Mouse

> Oh wow... you've done a lot of work since I last checked!  Looking good!!   Can't wait to see a zoomed out version with all the new buildings and such.
> 
> I really like how you've done your roads.  The paths look especially good... very organic and natural.  They really have the look and feel of being worn in by countless footsteps.


Thanks Neyjour!  That's all there is at the moment - sorry!

The paths are really easy.  I just imagine I'm ant sized and start heading from A, to B, to C, and so on, but with my crosshairs rather than my feet.  If you go over the same path a number of times it soon starts looking pretty natural... unless you have the steadiest hand in the universe, that is  :Wink:

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## Neyjour

> Thanks Neyjour!  That's all there is at the moment - sorry!
> 
> The paths are really easy.  I just imagine I'm ant sized and start heading from A, to B, to C, and so on, but with my crosshairs rather than my feet.  If you go over the same path a number of times it soon starts looking pretty natural... unless you have the steadiest hand in the universe, that is


Yeah, I realize that's all the buildings so far.   :Razz:   What I meant was, I'd like to see the overall effect/look with the newly added elements.  It's really nice to see a zoomed in view of the details, but it also makes me want to zoom out to see the whole thing.  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Aaaah!  I see now.  My brain is half asleep today.  I only got 3 hours sleep last night.

If you wait about half an hour I will get you one.  First I shall have to hide the sheet I've been having a laugh with - a trial run for actual relief shading (which really _isn't_ working!) and set it back up the way I had it when I rendered it last time a couple of hours ago  :Smile: 

EDIT: sorry about the delay.  It took over an hour to render out the full size, but the full image is now also available alongside the zoomed section for you  :Wink:

----------


## Neyjour

Thanks so much!  That looks amazing.  :Very Happy:   Is most/all of the "island" going to be populated with buildings?

----------


## Mouse

> Thanks so much!  That looks amazing.   Is most/all of the "island" going to be populated with buildings?


Thank you  :Smile: 

The bulk of the city will be vertical - up the steep slopes, leaving the top for the temple and the Sayer's compound around it (also the Observatory), which is sort of like the Vatican.  The other reason that its safer to live on the terraces is that the screamers (pterodactylian predators that can swallow an unwary man whole) aren't very agile and can't pick anyone off the steep slopes as easily as they can off the level.  

The island is limestone and riddled with caves which are used as homes where the terraces are not wide enough to build cottages or huts.  These will become obvious once I have finished the tracks and paths around the steepest part of the island, because they will each have a little tell-tale path vanishing into the hillside  :Wink: 

I am sorry Neyjour.  I'm so tired I can't remember what day it is.  I have to go to bed now.  Catch you tomorrow  :Wink:

----------


## Mouse

Version 19

Had a disaster earlier.  I spent a long time trying to create a hill shadow (its not good enough to be called relief shading), only to discover that the nice thatched cottages I had put on the first tier up the slope were burning a hole right through my nice new shadow.  I then spent about three hours trying to work out what to do, and finally settled on turning the buildings 1% transparent, which for some strange reason cures the problem! 

However, having already deleted all the offending thatched cottages in the belief that I would have to find an alternative set, I started putting them all back in again, at which point I realised I had scaled all the buildings too small.

So I put the thatched cottages back in, slightly larger this time, and then set to work on the previously established wooden shale buildings in the bottom of the valley and up the opposite slope.  (Funnily enough the wooden buildings from the Vintyri Cartographic Collection weren't causing me any trouble at all.  they were just too small)

Its not even as finished as it was yesterday, and the render took nearly 1 1/2 hours because I now have over 80 Sheets, but here it is.

----------


## Mouse

Version 20a (and b)

I just wanted to know if this relief shading goes with the artificial terracing.  Please feel free to say what you really think.  This map is about to go irreversibly either in this direction, or along the original course with just the layer cake shading.

I haven't decided just yet...

EDIT: Still playing with variations on a theme - added a less intense version that I think would be better for seeing the city.  There is a sacrifice for doing this to the map, in that the relief shading is produced as a bitmap and has a tendency to pixelate the underlying texture.  But I can go quite a lot higher in terms of resolution yet.  These are for draft purposes only.

EDIT 2: Added version c, which corrects the relief shading that seems to have melted and leaked into the sea on version b!  

Even though my favourite is version a, I think I will probably go with version c, simply because the buildings tend to disappear into the darker shadow with version a, and this is after all meant to be primarily a city map, rather than a relief map  :Smile:

----------


## - JO -

I see the conflict... In the version A, the relief is much more present, and the cliff looks steeper... But due to the layers, I think we very well understand the relief with version B or C. It all depends if the cliff is very steep or not (and I think it's not, otherwise there wouldn't be a city there...)

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## Mouse

> I see the conflict... In the version A, the relief is much more present, and the cliff looks steeper... But due to the layers, I think we very well understand the relief with version B or C. It all depends if the cliff is very steep or not (and I think it's not, otherwise there wouldn't be a city there...)


Well the short answer to that is - it is... and there is...

The cliffs are perilously steep and at the peak where the observatory is sited are nearly a thousand foot up from sea level.  There are three reasons the people live there -

1. Its the most holy religious site on the planet (being the reputed site of the Sacred Pool of Life where Rusaar spawned the First),  

2. The pestilent screamers (pterodactylian predators; capable of scooping up an unwary man and swallowing him whole - like a gull would a fish) are not agile enough to be able to pick anyone off the cliffs... and the third reason is related to the second.

3. Generations bred of the survivors of countless screamer attacks have left the humans of Ethran as agile as mountain goats, so living there is nothing to them.  Its a natural place for them to be - safe, and close to their God.

----------


## - JO -

So, for thousand feet, you should go for the version A !
Even it the houses are a little hidden...
You feel really the cliff, with the shadows of the version A

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## Mouse

I _want_ to do the dramatic one, really I do!  Trouble is that this _is_ a city map!  LOL

How about if I do both of them?  I mean, Its only the difference between which of the two relief sheets I use when I render.  I will probably work with the lighter one first.

The other problem is - houses and things on top of the land.  I have to cast a shadow on them, but if I use the relief sheet itself by placing the houses beneath it, some of them may end up coming out stripy in places where there are fine streaks on the relief sheet!

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## Mouse

Version 21

Having decided on the relief shading, I realised it was having an undesirable effect on the shade of the texture fills and started tinkering with the Hue, Saturation, Lightness qualities of all 24 closely related grass textures.  As you can imagine, this is a bit like sawing the legs off a table one inch at a time, one leg at a time, to try and make it level.  The end result is that I spent 4 hours sorting it out, and although I'm a _bit_ happier with the colour of the map (Its not perfect yet) I haven't really added very much more to the city itself.  The latest additions extend down the eastern arm of the island to Isk Point, which by Merlish standards is a rich area, with relatively large thatched constructions.

I have chosen just one version of the relief shading because attempting to keep the balance between all the fills and two types of relief texture was just too much to contemplate with everything else.  I hope you will find that its a happy medium - neither too dark, nor too pale.

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## - JO -

It's looking great ! Each time you add buildings and tracks, it's more beautiful ! Looking forward for the whole city...
For the shadows, it's difficult to say, because I think it will change a lot when the buildings will be there. For now, it looks good

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## Mouse

Thank you Jo  :Smile: 

I'm going to leave the topography elements alone for a bit and bash on with the buildings.  Quite apart from them I need to add a ton of boats - everywhere.  Being an island city dependent on the sea for 70% of its food supply, I think it will have to veritably _bristle_ with fishing boats of all different kinds - trawlers, line fishing boats, scallopers, dredgers, tugs... and all their nets and bits and pieces lying around the shoreline... although there's a bit of a snag to that aspect, in that I haven't drawn any yet to import them as supplements to the normal CC3/CSUAC/Dundjinni stock!  LOL.

Time to get my good old fashioned sketch book out and go down to the harbour to see what's around for a bit of inspiration.  Pity I can't use photographs.  We don't have any of those nice old wooden boats any more.  They're all metal and modern!  (Unless you count all the visiting tall ships, but I can hardly turn one of them into a fishing vessel!)

EDIT:  Mark just pointed me in the right direction to find more boats in the Dundjinni collection - already installed, so I can see myself having a fun time today.  I love boats!

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## - JO -

Have fun, then !
Bring back a lot of fishes !

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## Mouse

Only paper ones, to be sure.  Mark has just shown me where I already have quite a big stash of relevant objects, so I'll be dotting them around the map today.

Mind you, if there are any real line boats going out from Weymouth harbour today I might just see if I can cadge a ride and get some fresh salt air in my lungs.

Will mackerel do?

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## snodsy

Great job on this mouse, the texture on the hills are really, only thing I noticed was the roads look more like topo lines, maybe a little thicker with a small outer glow?  Great job!!

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## Mouse

Thank you snodsy  :Smile: 

About those very pristine white paths of mine... Hmm.  Yes, they do look a bit 'glowy' don't they.  I don't think it helps that there are so many of them, nor that they are so bright now I've dimmed down the land colours.  There's too much contrast. I think I shall also have to dim down the paths so they don't look quite so much like an endless magic carpet of fairy lights!

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## Mouse

Version 22

This is going to be the last 'daily' post on the Merelan City map.  I have a heavy real life commitment to bear as of this morning, but I won't be leaving any map unfinished.  They will all get done, just not as quickly as before.  I'm hoping on 2 new versions of MC a week after this one.

Changes to this version from the last:  a whole new underwater sea scape (which started with a bunch of rocks at Isk Point and just got thoroughly carried away!), a return to the orange marsh (I got fed up with everything being green and fawn), another re-scaling operation back to smaller buildings, an adjustment to the path brightness to stop them glowing quite so much on the new darker grass, and a clearing of the northern marina area, _ready_ for a greater variety of boats, some of which will be the ones that Jo drew for his Alycrau map (thank you so much for those Jo, they're beautiful).

I _promise_ I will try to get more than 1/4 of the rest of the city sorted out before I post again!  LOL   :Smile:

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## - JO -

Nice touches ! The new underwater seascape looks fine ! I still like the way this island is becoming alive each time you put buildings and paths on it : what we see now is full of promises ! Looking forward to the next WIP !

You're welcome for the boats, no need to mention it... 

I wish you well !

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## Mouse

Thank you, Jo.  I will still be around keeping an eye on things, but I just won't have as much time to do the drawing work  :Smile: 

As for the boats - why shouldn't I thank you.  They really are very beautiful, and it is such a pity that they will look so tiny on the MC map, due to the scale  :Frown: 

.

EDIT:  Things to do -

Thicken the paths a fraction to reduce the contour line effect and make the mainland paths less "spider web - thread-like".

Add new parts of the city, and stop fiddling with what's already there!

Draw geodesic dome for the temple, decide the actual layout (taking account of the story and the need for flying buttresses and a curved glass gallery/museum) and set the boundary wall for the Sayer compound on the top of the island.

EDIT2: Oh yes - I only just remembered I meant to say something about it when I uploaded the last WIP - Thank you for your much earlier suggestion about taking the glow off the base land layer, Jo.  It worked beautifully once I added the shingle and the rocks.  I now have an island that sits nicely on the surface of the planet, instead of one that appears to be slightly floaty in places!

Thank you!   :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 23

I know!  I promised more than 1/4 of the city, but I think all of the roads must count for something... even though I have yet to add the footpaths.  I'm a little concerned by the... "round and round and round" nature of the road system, but then, these slopes are steep, and there are some practically vertical 'inclines' if you care to take a vertiginous short cut  :Wink: .  These are in massively long flights of steps, but I think it would be too much to try and represent them as such at this scale.

I'm hoping to get the bulk of the buildings in over the weekend, although I know that might be a bit of a tall order!

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## Neyjour

_Love_ the new updates!   :Smile: 

The Isk Point settlement is definitely my fave little area so far.  Love the buildings there, and all the boats pulled up onto the rocks!  And that boat turned onto its side in the cove!  The amount of detail that you're putting into this is just... amazing. 

I agree that all the "round-and-round" roads look a bit... odd, but I think that's just because those areas are un-populated at the moment.  Once you start filling them out, I don't feel it's going to be an issue, and they'll make much more sense (in terms of placement and how many there are).

Awesome work on this.  Truly.  I love watching as it's being "built", but I'm also _so_ looking forward to seeing the finished version!  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Thanks Neyjour  :Smile: 

I am quite literally going around and around in circles with this one right now - trying to get it finished...  LOL.

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## Mouse

Version 23

The weekend 'burn' is going well, but I will have to sleep soon.  Its 4 am.  At last - a new section of the city: Cherrin, a combined boatyard/fishing port (needs more boat paraphernalia lying around, but the basics are there).  The buildings in this section are biased towards large merchant houses and small industries associated with the dock and the fish market - glue factories and so on (need some smoke plumes I think), so they are larger than the buildings elsewhere on the island  :Smile:

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## - JO -

HEy ! I was sure it would look better and better as soon as you put houses and details ! Still looking forward to see the next WIP ! Great work !
And I'm glad you like those boats !
You've made a good job with the streets too : I liked the paths the way the were (lots of little paths), but I think it was more suitable outside the city, where people walk more freely. Inside a city, the streets makes people walk more on the same path, less freely.  Keep up the good job !

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## Mouse

Its Ok Jo.  I don't like the nasty straight wide roads either.  They really are starting to get to me, even though I've only had them that way for a couple of days.  The paths are going back IN!!!  

The only place those horrid roads are going to have to stay are in the densely built up areas on the lower levels of the island, where you can't really have that many meandering paths through all the buildings  :Wink: 

I just have a few other things to sort out first, but there will be another WIP much later today, with all your boats featuring quite heavily on my ocean.  They do the job just right, and will look far better than the one and only tall ship symbol I have been using for all the tall ships in the map!  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 25

Ocean

I really meant to bash on with adding a ton of buildings to the city, and I have added a couple more, but I got a bit distracted by the sea.  Its been in my mind a lot lately due to some of my friends drawing underwater maps for the current Challenge.  When I stepped back from the screen and took a critical look at my own ocean the first thing that struck me was that I had no obvious patches of seaweed, which at this scale would be visible down through the water near the shore.  I found a suitable texture and started drawing in the weed, only to discover that the water wasn't really transparent enough to see it to the correct depth.  A couple of hours later, and after many wiggly patches of seaweed, and fiddling about with the Sheet effects, this is the result.

I have also replaced the rather inappropriate battle ships that I had turned into fishing boats with some of Jo's rather more attractive and far more appropriate fishing vessels, and added a couple of wrecks for interest  :Smile:

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## - JO -

Wow ! Amazing what a bunch of seeweed can do :-D

Really great !

And I LOVE what you've done with those ships : the two sailing along with the net : Great idea !!!!!

It's getting better and better !!!!!!!!

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## Mouse

Thanks Jo  :Very Happy: 

I'm glad you don't mind me turning your lovely fishing boats into trawlers!  I did wonder about it for a few minutes before I went and drew in the net, but I had to make it clear that the Merlish boats are more than capable of feeding a city, and even more importantly (to the plot) that they work in pairs - like it used to be in the real world before everything to do with fishing got so technologically improved that it was easy enough for boats to work alone.

I really meant to sort out those horrid road things while I was at it, but the sea took up a lot more time than I had planned!  LOL.  I'll be glad when I've finished all the tiny little jiggly lines in this map!

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## Katto

This is by far the most impressive map I have seen with CC so far. Keep on the fantastic work. I'll watch this WIP.
One question Mouse: is CC3+ much more superior concerning speed than CC3? I've worked with around 50 layers on a city map and when turning on the effects it was a PITA.

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## Mouse

> This is by far the most impressive map I have seen with CC so far. Keep on the fantastic work. I'll watch this WIP.
> One question Mouse: is CC3+ much more superior concerning speed than CC3? I've worked with around 50 layers on a city map and when turning on the effects it was a PITA.


Thank you Katto , and thank you also for the rep and your very kind comment  :Very Happy: 

The answer to your question is not as easy as it might at first appear, since I have a total 86 Sheets and 167 effects on this map, and the size of the map is 5000 x 5000 CC3+ map units (which makes it large for its type). It is also repeatedly combining a 16 MB bitmap file through a set of Sheet effects to generate the relief (by multiplying the product of the underlying sheets and their effects by the tonal shades of the bitmap, pixel by pixel) every time the screen is refreshed. 

Taking all those things into account, and the fact that I can't see to work without the effects turned on, or 'live', its no small surprise (to me) that I may have to wait a few seconds (about 5) for a response to a mouse wheel zoom.

Please note that before the file became so large and complex zoom was instantaneous.

What I _can_ say without any doubt in my mind, is that it is certainly a heck of a lot faster than CC3.  There is no way that I would even have attempted this map without CC3+!  LOL

I hope that helps  :Smile:

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## Katto

Thanks for the answer Mouse.
I've waited for minutes (not seconds) to get a feedback from the program and most of the times it crashed (of course with actual hardware by this time). I will give the new version a try. Thanks.

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## Mouse

You're welcome  :Smile: 

Depending on how long ago you last tried CC3, you may be pleasantly surprised by the sheer amount of extra graphics you can download and use in CC3+ nowadays (all free) - the Vintyri Cartographic Collection, and Bogies Mapping Objects are both available as separate downloads.  On top of that, any png image can be turned into a symbol.

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## Mark Oliva

> is CC3+ much more superior concerning speed than CC3? I've worked with around 50 layers on a city map and when turning on the effects it was a PITA.


Gruß Gott nach Dortmund!

CC3+ is much faster than CC3, but it still is not a fast program.  It's slow compared to The GIMP or Fractal Mapper 8 and faster than Dundjinni if DJ is working with large objects.  Based upon your descriptions of your past experiences, I would guess that CC3+ will irritate you a lot less than CC3 when it comes to speed but that it probably still will irritate you now and then.

Servus aus Middlfranggn!

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## Mouse

Its all relative Mark.  My answer was an honest one for the question that was asked - the difference between CC3 and CC3+.  Yes, it does take 5 seconds to react to zoom, but I have yet to hear of a CC3/CC3+ map that uses quite as many Sheets and Effects as I do with MC - a situation I ended up with because of the 7 sets of 5 sheets I use to generate each tier of the island, before anything else like the water, and the relief shading is even considered. 

Besdies I really like what I'm managing to do with CC3+ (I'm only a 'reasonable' artist and have only ever sold one painting in my entire 50 years of life), Right now, I'm trying to finish the first of 5 novels, and can't afford the time to learn how to use yet another software package.  I also already have all the conflicting mental instruction sets from at least 6 very divergent packages floating around in my head.  It sometimes cause errors when working in just one of them when I'm very tired - Bryce, Vue, Blender, Truspace, CorelDraw, CorelPaint, Fractal Terrains 3, CC3, CC3+... etc etc!  I actually caught myself trying to rotate this 2D scene as you would a 3D Blender world the other night.  Time to go to bed!  LOL

I think CC3+ does a really good job, considering it only uses half my very averge laptop's processing power.

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## Mark Oliva

> Its all relative Mark.


Hmmm.  I didn't think I was disagreeing with you, just adding my own observations.

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## Mouse

And I didn't realise that what I said could be interpreted that way.  I'm sorry  :Embarassed: 

Personally I blame biker boy downstairs from me, who doesn't see why he shouldn't wake the entire block of flats every morning at 5 am, and the fact that I'm a night owl; working best after 10 pm.  Those two things mean I average about 3-4 hours sleep a night.

In other words - I probably misinterpreted what you said, and then babbled on in the wrong direction  :Rolling Eyes: 

Again - I'm sorry.

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## Akae

Really great work! and thank for the step by step!

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## Mouse

Thank you Akae  :Smile: 

Are you going to start a few new threads in the "Finished Maps" forum?  It would be a shame for no one to be able to give you quite a lot of justly deserved praise (and rep - those green bars we have below our names) for all the _extraordinarily_ beautiful work I have seen you upload to your albums this morning  :Smile: 

EDIT: _Please_ do not worry about your English.  If I can understand it, then anyone can, and you will find that many other members are bi, tri, or even multi-lingual, so if you wanted to you could carry on at least part of a conversation in French, or German (as just two examples) if you so wished  :Smile:

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## Akae

You are amazing Mouse!!! Thanks!!!

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## Mouse

Heeey.  I haven't done anything! What did I do?  Just said a few things.

Your maps are what did it.

Happy mapping, Akae  :Very Happy:

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## Mouse

Version 26

Two steps back, one step forward...

I didn't like the entrance to the city.  In the plot there's a riot in the square... only I didn't have a square.  

I have one now, but it came at a heavy price.  Most of the first part of the city had to be demolished so that I could reorganise the wall, the entrance, the angle of the roads... everything really.

I couldn't stand the rest of the horrible roads any more (wish I'd kept the paths I laid out), so I just got rid of them so that I wouldn't have to see through them any more as I worked.  I also added a lot more detail to the ocean, and knocked a couple more buildings down in Cherrin to make space for the all important fish-glue/varnish/paint/seaweed-gelatine/general-organic-chemical plant, complete with its plume of foul black seaweed smoke.  There's going to be an even bigger industrial site on the opposite side of the island, but more on that when we get there.

I think that's about the only changes I've managed to make in the last couple of days  :Smile:

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## - JO -

Nice job with the sea...
And the entrance of the city looks more like the entrance of a capital ! I like it best that way !
There is a lot of details here and there that makes the visit of your city more and more interesting !
keep up the good work !

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## Mouse

Thank you Jo  :Smile: 

You always make me feel so much better about having had what amounts to a pretty average couple of evenings with this map.  And I promise the meandering paths are going back in again - I've realised I can copy them from one of the previous versions of the file.

I'm thinking about having at least 3 primitive funiculars running up and down the V shaped "grooves" around the island, and having them tree lined as well... but I'm still only thinking about it.  

Do you think there would be room for 2-3 tree-lined gorges dividing this city into sectors (given that it is really a very small city)?

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## Weery

Great thread here and I really enjoy the amount and the quality of details included. Plus the speed at which you progress is great for the viewer.

Thanks for posting  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Thanks Weery  :Smile: 

I just had a look at your own WIP and left a comment there.  Our styles are very different - opposite ends of the spectrum.  There is no way that I could match the sheer complexity and dedication you show in your drawings. 

Long live diversity, I say... and may the show carry on - both of them  :Smile:

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## - JO -

Hello !

I'm not sure if I understood well : you're thinking about making sectors of the city, divided by trees ?
If this is correct, I'd say why not ? It could be interesting... But not too straight, I think.

And if you want a funicular, I can send you one...

Have a good day !

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## Mouse

Thanks Jo, but I've already drawn the funiculars in the map, and they are both straight and effectively divide the city into radial sectors (since there is only one mountain.  It just occurred to me that the island has no trees on it at the moment, and on a densely populated island the only place they can grow is where its too steep or inaccessible for housing to be built, which just seems to fit with the idea of them being around the funiculars.  I don't expect anyone would want to live right next door to the noisy rumbling things anyway  :Wink: 

We will see what it looks like when I'm done  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 27

Well, I drew the funiculars, but they just looked dead wrong - too straight (Jo was right  :Wink:  ).  I took them out again, then got distracted for a couple of hours by the frame.  I then returned to the problem of having sufficient transport routes around a very steep little island and took another couple of hours to lay in a set of "main roads".  The Blucran Sayers would have ordered the building of these wide and smoothly curving roads - not having an appreciation of the most efficient ways around the island like the Merles do.  

The original paths that I got rid of are set for a comeback - I don't want any more of these nasty modern looking smooth roads than is absolutely necessary!

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## Mouse

Version 28

The main roads around the island have been refined and blended a little more with the landscape.  2 districts are now complete, with a third on the way.  The Temple of Rusaar grounds have been defined by a wall, and the position of the temple decided.  Rambling footpaths have been returned to Isk Point and the thatched housing completed in that area  :Smile: 

An experiment with the font isn't quite working in this version.

Sorry to be brief - its 1.20 pm and I'm really tired...

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## Falconius

It's looking great, seeing the progress is a lot of fun.  

I do wonder however about the defence of Jamne Head though.  Yes there are enormous cliffs there, but so to there is no clear way, at least map wise here, for defenders to defend there either.  Undefended cliffs are a lot easier to assault than defended walls, no matter the size or imposition of the cliff.  I don't know if you know about Masada, but it is a fortress overlooking the Jordon valley and it is on a plateau hundreds of feet above the valley and surroundings, and they still built walls around the top (if not just to keep from falling off a cliff in the night).  To assault it, the Romans built a giant earth ramp up the shortest cliff.

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## Mouse

I see your point, Falconius.  Those pesky Romans, eh?  Obsessed with power and the getting of it.  Always leads to a downfall!

However..

The politics of this island are such that the native Merles were conquered five centuries ago by the invading Blucrans, who claimed the island, enslaved the Merles, and now treat Merelan as if it had always been theirs.  They were, and still are, the most numerous and aggressive of the five races of Ethran, and fear absolutely no one and nothing.

However, the climate has changed on a global scale, and the tents on the marsh are just a symptom of the fact that Blucrene (the Blucran state, of which Merelan is the curiously side-attached capital) is the only land where things might still grow, and people may yet live.  All the other four races have become little more than climate refugees.

Faced by the human tide flowing into Blucrene the Blucrans have defended their city with a new wall - something that was never considered necessary before because of their military might.  Why, after all, would a supreme and undefeated army of holy warriors like the Sayers have to hide behind a wall?  to them, a wall is a cowardly device!  but they are not about to be invaded by a highly trained and battle tested army.  No. The wall, unfortunately, is to keep the starving refugees out of Merelan, so that the wealthy aristocratic society of that city do not have to put up with their presence, or share their good fortune with all these... '_dirty_ impoverished strangers'!

That the refugees might scale the cliff and get into the city that way, is possible, but unlikely, since the Blucrans are defined by a facial stripe they are born with - an azure marking that spreads across the brow like antlers, and which sinks down the nose in a very fine line. It cannot be imitated even by the best of tattoo artists, because it is luminous in the shade of a cowl or behind any wreath of loose hair, so allows them to tell at a glance any person in their midst who is not one of their own.  And woe betide any non-Blucran who is caught within the city limits _without_ an official pass!

Well... having said that, I might put more defences on Jamne Head.  I don't know.  Worth thinking about.

Thanks for that, and thanks for the compliment too  :Very Happy:  

Ps - Glad you're enjoying the tale  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 29 (apologies for the delay.  I had a system problem through yesterday, so the work here represents only a few hours on last time)

Something was missing... I forgot the trees!!!

Here they are - at least in the top portion of the city.  Building work has crept along and up the slopes from Cherrin and Jamne Head, and some of the cave dwellings in the more vertical parts of the cliff have been marked by mysteriously disappearing footpaths  :Wink:   The top of the island that isn't covered with buildings and trees on that side will be tumuli tombs, field systems, and a cemetery/pyre arrangement.  Yet to decide what style to use for that, and I would have just bashed on with it today, only I have an appointment to attend in an hour...

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## ladiestorm

This is great!!!  this is the first time I've ever seen the whole thing at one time.  absolutely beautiful!

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## Falconius

Ah that makes sense.  I saw the walls and assumed they were there for a martial function.

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## Mouse

> This is great!!!  this is the first time I've ever seen the whole thing at one time.  absolutely beautiful!


Thanks Storm  :Very Happy:   It looks a lot better here than it does on PF - this is only a 50% reduction on the original, rather than a 75% reduction.  Here the trees actually look like trees, instead of coloured lollipops!!!

LOL...




> Ah that makes sense.  I saw the walls and assumed they were there for a martial function.


No, I'm afraid its a socio-political thing - racism/xenophobia/arrogance on the part of the Blucrans.  Don't worry - they get their come-uppance!  Rusaar's justice is about to fall on them, yet this is the city where one of the heroes of the tale was born and grew up - Eonat's home is the observatory.

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## snodsy

This has really come far, you have yourself a really beautiful map going on here, on thing bothers me, the cliff edge rock color, seems too white, what if it had just a little brown or gray or transparency to dial it back just a little.

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## Mouse

Thank you Snodsy  :Very Happy: 

The cliffs have always bothered me.  They're a simple bevel, and they don't look anything like I wanted them to look.  But just as it took me a while to work out what was wrong with the ocean (too pale and not transparent enough in the earlier versions) I have yet to realize a solution for the cliffs.  They should be rough and fluted and look much more like cliffs, than rather thick pancakes, and I agree with you - they are several shades too pale on the lighted side.  LOL  Trouble is, that if I reduce the angle of the bevel to get rid of the glare, I loose the shade on the dark side.  

The stone is meant to be fairly pale, since it's limestone, but perhaps I have made it a tad on the white side of pale.

There's nothing for it.  I shall just have to make those cliff symbols I've been sort of thinking about for a while now!  Shouldn't be so lazy in my old age - LOL

We'll see what I can come up with over the next week  :Wink:

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## Mouse

Version 30

New improved cliffs.  Hmmmn  :Question: 

Not sure these look better or worse than before, but the cliffs have a completely different form of bevel on them now.  I also fractalized the unnaturally smooth outline, which gave me no end of headaches because I buried half my houses under the more jagged outline and had to spend ages trying to uncover them.  Some are still stuck half way under the cliff, but that's ok because some are built into the entrances of older cave dwellings.  

I also removed the tree symbols that were conflicting with the transparency of the relief layer and turning opaque.  That was what was giving me a strange whitish halo around them - in particular the red varieties!  So - only green and brown trees left on the map at the moment.  I kind of like the reduced colour range - less distracting.

Let me know if you want to go back to the old cliffs!!!

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## Diamond

DEFINITELY keep these cliffs.  This is just astonishing work, Mouse.  I've spent the last ten minutes just taking in all the little details.  I want to live there!

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## Josiah VE

Is this made with CC3? If so it's one of the most stunning CC3 maps I have ever seen! Keep it up!

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## waldronate

The new cliffs are MUCH better than the old one. The fractalization adds a lot (as does avoidance of the basic Bevel element).

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## Mouse

> DEFINITELY keep these cliffs.  This is just astonishing work, Mouse.  I've spent the last ten minutes just taking in all the little details.  I want to live there!


Oh wow!  And thank you Diamond!!!  :Very Happy:   Er... but you don't really want to live there.  Not _really_.  

This is the doomed world of Ethran, and its indigenous population are all those "poor... poor, people" you mentioned some time ago now  :Wink: 




> Is this made with CC3? If so it's one of the most stunning CC3 maps I have ever seen! Keep it up!


Thanks Josiah  :Very Happy:  100% arranged and modified in CC3+. (not showing at its best below. I had a system crash a couple of days ago, and had to reinstall a lot of my software, including CC3+).



95% of what you see was drawn directly into CC3+.  The other 5% consists of a relief sheet, which I prepared by eroding a hand drawn height map in Bryce (rendering it and importing it back into CC3+ as a b/w bitmap), and those beautiful little boats and ships that Jo gave me from his Alycrau map - which I believe were his own hand drawn artwork, done in Photoshop  :Wink:  

Had I not been caught snoozing (and not really paying much attention to what else was going on around me) I might have found out about Wilbur in time to make a more pleasing relief map, but as it stands right now its a Bryce height map  :Smile: 




> The new cliffs are MUCH better than the old one. The fractalization adds a lot (as does avoidance of the basic Bevel element).


Aw thanks, Waldronate  :Very Happy: .  I haven't yet found anything I can't do (or mimic) with CC3+.  And the basic bevel has its uses - the pyre pit on top of the island is one of them, and I've seen many a dungeon wall that would be sadly lacking without it  :Wink:

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## - JO -

The new cliffs appears brighter, and we can see them better, and they're much more integrated one to another (less layer effect), I think you found the good solution !

And I really like all the places where you've place the buildings : i'm really looking forward to see the city coming to life !

you're really precise and meticulous ! Hard work, but it's paying !

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## Mouse

> The new cliffs appears brighter, and we can see them better, and they're much more integrated one to another (less layer effect), I think you found the good solution !
> 
> And I really like all the places where you've place the buildings : i'm really looking forward to see the city coming to life !
> 
> you're really precise and meticulous ! Hard work, but it's paying !


Hey Jo  :Smile:  I'm glad you like my city - and yes, it was a bit like a layer cake before, or a stack of badly made pancakes! LOL

As for being precise and meticulous - I had a good teacher to follow - YOU, with all your _myriad_ trees!!!

I'm usually a very messy person, and also quite careless, but I find listening to some decent film score music helps with the rhythm of the old thinking process - helps me to imagine little sub-plots in the streets as I draw them - encounters, fights, celebrations.... etc My favourite right now: Guardians of the Galaxy - Awesome Mix, and a few of the longer and more dramatic orchestral pieces  :Wink:

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## - JO -

My wife is a big film score music fan too... And, coincidence, she's listening to the Guardians of the Galasy too, these days !
It sure helps to have music when doing demanding and repetitive tasks...

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## Mouse

I think music stimulates the imagination by generating a particular mood, so you have to be careful what you listen to when you’re drawing things that must have a certain atmosphere about them.  I have a wide range of all kinds of stuff to listen to, ranging from Mozart, Tellemann and Beethoven, to Led Zeplin, ELO and Nickleback, with a sprinkling of Beiderbecke, traditional New Orleans jazz and Bob Marley thrown in for good measure…

But I would never listen to the whole lot in just one map!  LOL.  Just think what a confusion that would cause!

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## Mouse

Version 31

The roads and tracks were all drawn on the top sheet/layer of 8, which is why the shadows cast by the steps in the cliff didn't seem to affect them. So after digging out a few more of the houses I more or less buried when I changed the cliffs, I had to sort them out before I went any further. A basic design flaw tripped me up at that point. Diagonal roads traversing the sheets/layers in zig-zag form up and down the slope were nearly impossible to cut into sections at just the right point without looking like separate bits of road _because_ of the shadows being cast by the cliffs. I redesigned the road layout (fourth time) to get around this problem, and made nice convenient even slopes without any cliffs for the ones I really couldn't get rid of  :Wink:  I hope they don't look too artificial. 

Having spent most of the day sorting that out, I didn't have much left in me for anything else, but managed to mostly finish Gyre Frai - the Merlish ghetto on the north facing cliff looking out over the bay, and place two taverns on the top of the island, near the pyre pit and the six tumuli/barrow burials of the early Merlish kings. Had a little fun with a couple of unofficial paths sneaking away from the pyre to the taverns  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 32

Some kind of vineyard/hop farm seems to have appeared to the east of the summit on the slopes that are too exposed to the predators for anyone to want to live there.  (Well, I can't have a city without any visible and obvious vices!)

The bitmap I was using to generate the relief was making everything grey and more fuzzy than without it, so I replaced it with a vector image (in other words I traced the dark shapes on the bitmap and created a new sheet/layer for them, then got rid of the bitmap altogether).  Everything is much sharper now - including the mistakes!

I haven't had time to work on the expected side effect of changing the relief mapping (more intense colours), but I'll sort that out tomorrow.  

More of the spider-webbing of tiny pathways has been added, and errors with paths being on the wrong sheet are starting to get tidied up.  Once I have sorted out the disturbances caused by the change in cliffs and the equally drastic change in relief mapping, I should be able to finish this off in just a few more days. 

I have rendered this version without the frame to give a better resolution to the uploaded image so that you can see things.  (its still there, just not included in the render rectangle)

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## Mark Oliva

> Some kind of vineyard/hop farm seems to have appeared to the east of the summit on the slopes that are too exposed to the predators for anyone to want to live there.


They have to be vineyards.  That's not how a hops garden looks.  But gee golly whillikers, Mouse!  They're in the wrong place.  No sensible vintner would put his/her grapes on the east side of the hill.  A vineyard has to be on the south or southwest side of the hill where the sun exposure is right (or north to northwest south of the equator).

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## Mouse

Ah!

Well...

Hmmmmn...  Hmmmn....

Actually....  I need to add a compass to the map.  Thanks for reminding me!

The majority of the vineyard is on a south east slope (north being diagonal from bottom right to top left).  That's _almost_ south facing... and the slope is more of a gently tilting plain, so its not really in the shade at any point of the day.  Is that good enough?

I was thinking of vines when I drew them, and no, I don't live anywhere near a hop growing area.  I just couldn't make my mind up if the Blucrans were men of the grape, or grain.  But then I remembered that it would be easier to make wine than beer, since cereal crops are hit much harder by drought than are vines (I think), and you don't need to add any water to the 'brew'.  The grapes of the Merlish vines (for it is they and not the Blucrans' who refined the strain) are small and very strong - and they _are_ going to need a fairly stiff drink or two when they realise what's about to happen to them.

Do you think I have enough vineyard to keep the wealthy of the city in booze for a year, or shall I do more?

The reason they are there, right in the middle of the city, is because it is far easier for them to grow their own wine in situ than have it hauled across the mainland and all the way up the cliff.

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## Mark Oliva

_Photo Copyright (C) 2010, Steigerwald EDV Verlag, all rights reserved.  Used with permission._




> Ah!
> 
> Well...
> 
> Hmmmmn...  Hmmmn....


My thoughts exactly.





> The majority of the vineyard is on a south east slope (north being diagonal from bottom right to top left).  That's _almost_ south facing... and the slope is more of a gently tilting plain, so its not really in the shade at any point of the day.  Is that good enough?


For grape juice, sure.  For wine, never.  Best is the all-day sun of a south slope.  OK is a southwest slope with late morning and afternoon sun.  Minimal is a west slope with afternoon sun.  But southeast ... grape juice.  However, as you soon will see, the matter is going to get worse.




> I don't live anywhere near a hop growing area.


The Middle Franconian hops gardens of Spalt and Hersbruck are near.  The best German hops gardens in the Bavarian Hallertau are not distant, nor is Bohemian Žatec (Saaz in Austrian times), where the world's best hops grow.  I've been to all of them, and none look anything like your grape-juice-producing vineyards.




> The grapes of the Merlish vines (for it is they and not the Blucrans' who refined the strain) are small and very strong - and they _are_ going to need a fairly stiff drink or two when they realise what's about to happen to them.


Then you're really in trouble.  One does not get high alcohol content from _strong_ or even _very strong_ grapes but rather from the amount of sugar in the grape which turns into alcohol.  The amount of sugar in the grape is, then, determined to a great extent by the amount of sunshine the vines have.  In other words, if your wines are supposed to have a high alcohol content, you need a 100% south slope, preferably with a steep incline,  most preferably with water at the bottom to reflect sunlight back into the vineyard.  See the photo.  It was taken in early spring before the vines had leafed out.  It shows the Lower Franconian village of Escherndorf on the Main River.  The vineyard - Escherndorfer Lump - faces due south.  It is one of 5 world-class vineyards in Franconia.  Some of the wine in the Lump goes for up to $100 a bottle in New York City.




> Do you think I have enough vineyard to keep the wealthy of the city in booze for a year, or shall I do more?


Sorry.  You don't have any vineyard at all to do that.

However, I do want to get you out of trouble.  Instead of making it a village of winos, you could make it a village of abolitionist grape juice drinkers who will burn anyone at the stake who is caught drinking alcohol!

Nix für Ungut!

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## Mouse

LOL!  

I can see that I'm going to have to turn the entire southern coast into a vineyard - close to the water  :Very Happy: 

Thanks Mark!

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## Mark Oliva

You don't have to thank me.  Pulling the rug out from under other peoples' feet is an old Bavarian sport.  Glad to do it for you!

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## Mouse

Well no - you've actually been quite a lot more helpful than you thought, but the results of the consideration you sparked will only be evident once I've uploaded an update later today  :Wink:

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## Falconius

Um, this city clearly imports its food anyways.  It's built on a rock, next to a swamp, and no one has a garden.  So I'm not sure why they wouldn't just import their booze also.

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## Mouse

In the old days, you'd have been right about that.  

Before the drought set in, and before the rest of Ethran became little more than a desert, all manner of useful things were traded between the five races, and entered the city partly by the road and partly by the dock.  Merelan being a medieval city, its population is not so large that it can't be sustained by a single good road and an adapted fishing port.

Livestock is a rarity, since drinking water is too precious to share with more than a bare minimum of animals, so the only reliable source of protein is fish.  Lugworms and shellfish harvested from the salt marsh and the sand banks are eaten in vast quantities by the poor, along with the more edible forms of seaweed, which when dried can also be burnt as fuel (since the trees are now all dead and the wood from them carefully guarded).  

The only thing that still comes from the mainland (where all the vines have died or been overcome by the spreading dunes of the interior desert) is an edible succulent with a very nutritious root (parrac).  Parrac has fibres that are long and strong enough to be useful in rope making, and at a pinch can also be aggressively softened, spun and woven into fabric for sack cloth.

The Sayers insist that the reason Merelan is still relatively blessed by the presence of water (hidden deep in its caverns, and still seeping from the sacred Pool of Life beneath the temple), is that Rusaar has blessed the Blucrans above all others, and will never allow his _true_ people to die.

What fools they are, poor things!

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## Mouse

Version 33

Ok... so we're growing grape juice for the junior members of our society on the slopes above Cherrin  :Wink: 

I've had to upload early today, because I have an appointment that could really spoil my day this afternoon.  the grass colouring is definitely off.  I tried fiddling with it to reduce the glowing green a bit, and all I've done is make it a really horrible colour.

That's tomorrow's job, now.

What I would be really interested in is if anyone has any thoughts on the design/style of the layout I've plunked down inside the Sayer compound.  My idea was to have 1-2 thousand Sayers living there - the hard core of the warrior army and the senior officers, but it looks like a prison right now!

The temple is just a circle with a couple of entrances right now, but I have to think about how to represent the structure, which I have already written about - a geodesic dome of glass resting on an inner wall over an extremely important mosaic of precious gem stones (a key component of the story), surrounded by a glazed aisle that runs beneath the flying buttresses that support the upper walls that bear the weight of the geodesic dome.

I have a feeling I might need to draw this and import it  :Wink: 

EDIT: I have also sorted out the really inconsistent shadow/highlight effects on the houses that are supposed to be in the shadow of the land (the contrast was way over the top). I discovered that it was because I had altered the default sun settings some time ago, and put it very low in the sky. Once I restored it to an angle that was more towards overhead, the problem simply vanished.

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## Falconius

Don't army bases generally resemble prisons?  Hehe, I think it looks good.  They may be somewhat short of parade ground and training space though, but I'm sure the commanders just make them go run in the marsh anyways  :Smile:

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## J.Edward

Hadn't seen the progress for a bit... then this  :Very Happy: 
It looking great Mouse.  :Smile:

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## Mouse

> Don't army bases generally resemble prisons?  Hehe, I think it looks good.  They may be somewhat short of parade ground and training space though, but I'm sure the commanders just make them go run in the marsh anyways


EDIT:  How rude!  I quite forgot to say "thank you".  Thank you, Falconius  :Very Happy: 

Well - I think you have a point there.  LOL  The bases around here certainly do!  I might have to squash a parade ground in near the north east gate (top of the map the way its orientated), but the Sayers also think of themselves as spiritual warriors.  When I get the garden of reflection sorted out (a tree filled parkland) it shouldn't look quite so harsh  :Wink:  

As for exercise... I think they probably run up and down the island quite a lot.  I would imagine that running to the marsh and back would be listed under the more sadistic forms of punishment!




> Hadn't seen the progress for a bit... then this 
> It looking great Mouse.


Aw, thanks J.Edward  :Very Happy:   And despite the horrible colour scheme I seem to have generated ever so suddenly  :Smile:

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## ladiestorm

Hey, Sue... I see what you mean... the contrast coloring is different, but I can't quite put my finger on the difference.  A little crisper? cleaner? less melded? Maybe the colors themselves aren't as muted as they were before, especially in the water areas?  I'm not sure... but my strange stigmatistic eyes are seeing a difference... as in a little ghost imaging that wasn't there before.  I just can't begin to tell you what's causing it.

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## Mouse

Everything is cleaner because I replaced the B/W relief bitmap with a set of hand traced vector shapes (traced from the bitmap).  The entire map is sharper - 4 x sharper, because there was a limit on the resolution of the relief bitmap.  In effect every one of its pixels was blurring or blending 4 of the underlying pixels together.

I had already adjusted the underlying colours to cope with the greyness of the bitmap, but now its gone everything is glaring - shouting back at me - yelling: "Hey! Thought you could get away with THIS mistake did you... or THIS one?"

I couldn't help but laugh - thinking "beware - this map bites back!"

Apart from the glaring colours, I think the repetition in the grass texture has reappeared, but only in areas of the map where there's nothing much happening right now.  

Not sure what you mean by ghosting?

I changed the position of the global sun.  It was very low level for some reason, and generating an undesirable degree of contrast on some of the roof tops that were supposed to be in the shadow of the cliff.

EDIT:  I've just had a fresh look at the last image I uploaded.  That sea is RIDICULOUSLY turquoise... which is odd really, since the relief map only covered the island.  Hmmmmn  :Confused:

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## Mouse

Version 33 *A*

Tamed the garishly psychedelic grass, and now offer an alternative design for the buildings in the Sayer compound.  This is just a sketch, so please excuse the fact that I haven't added in the rows and rows of tiny individual boxes that will house the junior and apprentice Sayers.  These are represented by the white lines on the lower terraces to the south of the temple.

The pentagon may look really awkward and out of place, but its just a basic shape I whipped up in CorelDraw to mark the spot.  There will be all kinds of additional details to go on it yet to make it look more like a building than a space ship!

Please let me know if you prefer this one, or the first layout earlier today.  Thanks  :Smile:

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## Falconius

Hah!  A Pentagon?  It's hard to tell without it textured, but I think I prefer the other one with separate buildings, but that is based on nothing more than personal aesthetics.  To find which suits your setting better, or more correctly, I think you should consider the history of development for that site.  Many army bases just build what they need when they need it, and so, even with an overall plan sort of end up as a hodge podge of stuff (ie more like your first one), even on significant sites.  However if they started a with a very clear plan as to what their numbers would be and the areas they needed they might plan a big encompassing building like that.  Did they plan on that before the city was built?  Very unlikely, and its even more unlikely that if they did have a such a far reaching plan that it would have actually suited the needs they ended up with years later.  A more likely scenario is that they would have had the hodge podge on the site already and if they had good reason to build something like that (from your description of the dome thing it seems like they do) they would have torn down their previous facilities to build that.  This way of course requires lots more money, which it sounds like they have.

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## Mouse

Hey Falconius  :Smile: 

Shock and horror at what I had done to the map was rained down on me back on Profantasy's Forum, which prompted the alternative design...

I don't see that there's any great harm in sharing rather a lot more story than I was originally intending... it explains a couple of things  :Wink: 

King Codari was the last of the Blucran kings.  It was his crusade to find the Pool of Life that led to the Blucran invasion of the island 500 years ago.  Previous to their arrival, the island was inhabited by the Merlish king - a man called Marin Blakevic, who ruled over a simple but enlightened race who were warriors of the sea and mind - fishermen, poets, farmers, philosophers, craftsmen and artists... but never the kind of warrior that would wield a sword or an axe!

Victory was achieved in a matter of hours. Codari enslaved the Merles, slighted Blakevic's existing palace, and when he discovered the most holy of holy's - the sacred Pool of Life at its core, was about to start building his own great palace right on top of the ruins... when the Blucran invaders started to fall to the Merlish plague.  

Codari lost all 6 of his wives, and all his 32 children.  Never was there a more sorry king!

Seeing his chance, Blakevic (who was being hidden and protected by his own people deep in the caverns of the island) offered himself up in exchange for the freedom of those who had been captured and enslaved, and was accepted on the grounds that the Blucrans now needed their help - Merlish medicine...  

Blakevic suffered long and hard - many humiliations were inflicted on him by the wounded Blucran king, but Codari's grief made him weak and suggestible, so by continually forgiving him and lavishing compliments and praise on his more kindly works, Blakevic crept into the heart of his vain Blucran master, and managed to convince Codari that the way to ensure the arrival of his family in the Dream Place on Errispa (and indeed his own ascendance) was to build a temple over the pool, rather than a palace or a castle, and to immortalise his holy wish to join them in a splendid mosaic of the most perfect gems, embedded in the floor of the temple cupola, directly above the pool.

And so the temple was built, and the "Ascendance of Man" mosaic was created - Blakevic himself designing, cutting and laying many of the stones alongside his workmen.  And so, also, were the riches of the mighty Blucran king entombed where they could never be used to raise another army, or enslave another people  :Wink: 

Instead of the fortified palace that Codari had planned, we now have a temple, and when Codari died without issue his generals and priests formed an alliance of power that evolved to become the Sayer Council.  

The later buildings around the temple were designed in no particular hurry, since most of the men were already billeted around the rest of the island.  The pentagon shaped building (pentagonal because it fits the most in a very small space and allows the temple sufficient room to exist) is the command post. It houses all the senior Sayers, and all the core knowledge of the Blucran force - learning, history, a museum of artefacts... while the rows and rows of tiny boxes that will eventually be arrayed on the gentle slopes outside the pentagon will be the humble homes and shelters of all the lesser Sayers and apprentices.

...

Thank you Falconius  :Smile:   By encouraging me to explain the story that lead to things being the way that they are, I have just realised that I need to add a significant tracery of ruins to the map - Blakevic's slighted palace!

Mind you - I'm still open to comments either way, and I still haven't decided on the final layout  :Wink:

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## Falconius

Interesting history.  I take it that the temple isn't open to the lay people?  Because if it is you should consider their access to it.

It did occur to me that many places build retaining walls and level out plateaus in sites such as this (fortifications or holy sites).

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## Mouse

Good point about public access.  Hmmn.

I think it should only be by Sayer permission, since this is both a spiritual and military site, but there is a central arch at ground and first floor levels beneath each long section of the pentagon ( a five storey building).

I would dearly love to level this site and make everything a bit easier for myself, and I think I may still do it, although that would do away with all those lovely ruins I've only just realised I would need to impose on the ground beneath the present day buildings.

I was rather looking forward to that.

I'll see how I feel once I've done all the twiddly bits on the pentagon  :Wink:

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## Mouse

Version 34

Having been tutored in the use of aligned fills and shaded polygons by the more knowledgeable members of the Profantasy community, I have managed to draw the temple directly into the map in CC3+, rather than working with it in CorelDraw and importing it.  (I learn new things about this software every day).  I still have to work out the roof ridge tiles, however, which is why it looks slightly odd at the moment, and I think I may have gotten the scale of the texture a little on the small side.  

The dome over the mosaic and the Pool of Life is temporarily a "cracked crystal ball" symbol, but will become a proper geodesic dome by the time I have finished the map.

The Garden of Reflection still needs a lot of work (and quite a few more trees), while the barracks that will be hidden behind the bulk of the temple from the main public entrance have yet to be started.

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## waldronate

Is there an archway over the entrance to the domed area with "We Fear Bees" on it?

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## snodsy

This has come together so beautifully, all the details, the paths are very well done, maybe slightly blur the waves whitecaps? They look a little to linear, the red rocks seem a little harsh in contrast, but not too bad, I'll be rapping this, maybe for a second time, great job!!

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## Mouse

> Is there an archway over the entrance to the domed area with "We Fear Bees" on it?


LOL!  I had to think for a minute before I understood the reference there... and I've probably got it wrong, but I'm very much hoping this isn't going to turn into an 'Eden Project' lookalike  :Razz:   LOL




> This has come together so beautifully, all the details, the paths are very well done, maybe slightly blur the waves whitecaps? They look a little to linear, the red rocks seem a little harsh in contrast, but not too bad, I'll be rapping this, maybe for a second time, great job!!


Aw thanks Snodsy  :Very Happy:  (even though I don't think you can rep the same thread twice?).  Its the thought that counts  :Wink: 

The coming together of things was relatively easy for me - I have the advantage of having spent a couple of years trying to visualize this island while writing the novel its for.  Mind you, there are parts of the story I will need to update to reflect the fact that some bits of it are slightly different to the way I wanted them to be - but those parts tend to be an improvement on the way I described them in the story  :Wink: 

I agree with you on the waves, but haven't yet decided which technique to use to blur them some more, since one edge must be reasonably sharp, while the other needs to ramble on in a fine mesh of fading tendrils down the back of the wave.

The red rocks?  What red rocks?  OOOH!!! I see  ROFL!!!  Um... that's.... my attempt at seaweed  :Blush:   Well - lets just say that I may need to work on that just a bit  :Smile:   The main problem I think, is that everything was turned up to full blast colour (and then some) just to make it look right after being filtered through the black and white relief bitmap I imposed on the drawing.  When I replaced it with a set of traced vector shadows everything binged back to full glorious colour.  A lot of the drawing time over the last two days has been taken up trying to tame the colours all over again, but there are Sheets (Layers) I haven't done yet, and the weed is one of them.

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## waldronate

> LOL!  I had to think for a minute before I understood the reference there... and I've probably got it wrong, but I'm very much hoping this isn't going to turn into an 'Eden Project' lookalike   LOL


I was thinking of the Oglaf comic "Lapis Lazuli" ( http://oglaf.wikia.com/wiki/Lapis_Lazuli ) and its lesson about truth in advertising and guarded treasures, but the original comic is quite a bit not suitable for work.

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## Josiah VE

Yes, this has got to be the best campaign cartographer map I've ever seen, it is mighty impressive.

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## Mouse

> I was thinking of the Oglaf comic "Lapis Lazuli" ( http://oglaf.wikia.com/wiki/Lapis_Lazuli ) and its lesson about truth in advertising and guarded treasures, but the original comic is quite a bit not suitable for work.


Aahhh!  I see now.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't need a "Bee" sign.  Although there is a real and physical force at work here causing the water to well up from deep under the island, it has nothing to do with the Sayers and any power or authority they might wield over the people of Merelan  :Wink:

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## Mouse

> Yes, this has got to be the best campaign cartographer map I've ever seen, it is mighty impressive.


Aw - thanks Josiah  :Blush: 

I have had a very long time to think about how it should look (a couple of years)... and since I have no children of my own, probably about twice the number of hours in a day that anyone else has had to be able to draw stuff  :Wink:

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## arsheesh

This is an impressive project Mouse.  One of the better CC3+ maps I've seen.  Look forward to seeing the final result.

Cheers,
-Arsheesh

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## Mouse

Thank you Arsheesh  :Very Happy: ...  :Blush:

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## Mouse

Version 35

Trying out different roof textures for the temple.  I redrew it earlier, so there aren't any nasty gaps in the angles now.  I used the circular array tool to do it this time, instead of manually copying and pasting the first segment by eye.

Also used the square array tool to set up the barracks in a typically military grid pattern (observed from a local army bridging camp).

The file crashed earlier as a result of a stupid mistake on my part.  I think I may have corrupted this version - there appear to be strange white lines around some of the buildings I've placed since the crash.  I may go back a step to the previous version and work with that one instead if the buildings paste all right on that one.

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## Tom

This is a quite impressive work, the textures are really nice and well blended! However I don't like much the brown ones on the beach/cliff, the stack too much from the more realistic white/grey around, maybe you could try to desaturate them a bit.
Anyway it's coming out really nice!!  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Thanks Tom  :Smile: 

I'm not really sure which 'brown ones' you mean.  Are you talking about the seaweed?

You're the second person to say something about it (if it IS the weed you mean).

I wonder - would it be too much to ask if someone could borrow this 1.5 MB copy (the original is 9.5MB) and indicate the offending brown stuff so that I can see what you mean and change the right bit  :Wink: 

Thanking you in advance...

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## Mouse

Version 36

Not much different here, except that I have toned down the seaweed a bit, and (a bigger change) discovered what was causing the hard lines around all the buildings that I disliked so much.  Its gone now.

I'd like to know if you think it would be better if I put them back in again.

Thanks

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## Mouse

Version 37

New developments south of the Temple of Rusaar.

Somnee was done and finished in half an hour flat this morning.  This small peninsular of the main island has been inhabited by the Merles for well over a thousand years.  At some point in that history, and before the Sayers were around to protect everyone from the screamers (the pterodactylian predators I keep mentioning), the villagers decided to build their houses in an oval around a play area, where their younger children could play in relative safety - only ever a few seconds quick dash away from the safety of the hearth.  This area also became their market place, and is sometimes used for the drying of seaweed and fish at times of the year when these activities are most often carried out.

Screamer attacks have become a thing of the past, since the drought set in and their numbers declined, so the traditional races around Somnee market place which were designed to encourage speed and agility in the young, that they might stand a better chance if they were ever caught in the open by the screamers, have become more of a festivity than a serious exercise.  Nowadays there are also races run around the island starting and finishing in Somnee Market place, which anyone can join - young and old alike  :Wink: 

Elsewhere on the map I have added as many houses to the bottom tier of the island as I think are possible, and started on the second tier up.  I have also sketched in a few lines to remind myself not to put houses in the flash flood channels (black), in the vineyards (white), and to mark the boundary of the social divide between the upper town (Blucran), and the under town (Merle and half-blood), which is orange.  These lines will disappear as I work to add those areas.

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## Katto

Looking cooler day by day Mouse. My only nitpick is that some ships doesn`t match the overall colour scheme.

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## Mouse

Thank you Katto  :Smile: 

I think I see the boats you mean.  I might grey them down a bit, but it may well be that my entire colour scheme is just a little bit off - overly greenish-blue right now.  I'm adjusting things as I go  :Wink: 

Thank you for pointing it out.  I'll add it to the list of things to sort out  :Wink:

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## Josiah VE

I actually really liked the red seaweed. Anyway, still looks great.

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## Mouse

> I actually really liked the red seaweed. Anyway, still looks great.


LOL.  It was a _bit_ bright, but I think I might have gone too far the other way with it.  I'm Lacking anything that's really red now that its gone - probably why the whole map looks too green-blue to me now

Another adjustment to add to the 'finishings' list.

Thanks Josiah  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 37

The vineyards on the southern coast are done.  I have also repaired the red seaweed to the colour I prefer, although it is not as overpowering as before because I have added an edge fade that reduces the thickness of the individual threads (its a transparent fill bitmap).

Sorry - really tired, and all out of words for today  :Smile:

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## kacey

I've been meaning to comment on this, I've been admiring it from afar for a while now. I love the depth you show in the water, I think it's my favorite part. The little rocks, and such under the water, and around the islands are so cool, it looks like you could dive right in. I can only imagine how much time you've spent on this, it's really neat to look at.

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## snodsy

Just keeps getting better - choose another font that compliments the title for the copyright. maybe copyright much smaller - separated?  Compass Rose, scale.  Love the paths!

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## Mouse

> I've been meaning to comment on this, I've been admiring it from afar for a while now. I love the depth you show in the water, I think it's my favorite part. The little rocks, and such under the water, and around the islands are so cool, it looks like you could dive right in. I can only imagine how much time you've spent on this, it's really neat to look at.


Thank you Kacey  :Smile:   The water was perhaps the hardest part to get right, even though the entire illusion is created using just 7 Sheets/Layers.  There are only 3 Sheets creating the water itself, and all of them are transparent.  As for the rocks and the gravel - they are 2 further sheets with just 2 carefully chosen textures dotted around.  The bottom sheet is the background sand that goes right under the entire map, and the topmost Sheet is the one where I have drawn the breakers.




> Just keeps getting better - choose another font that compliments the title for the copyright. maybe copyright much smaller - separated?  Compass Rose, scale.  Love the paths!


Thanks Snodsy  :Smile:  The paths are the only thing that can be truly said to be hand drawn in this map  :Wink: 

I wanted to tuck the copyright into the sphere of the title to make it more difficult to get rid of.  I'm still a bit rattled by what happened to the Observatory map.  It might look quite large in these images, and in the one I have on my screen it is quite magnificently huuuuge (since these here on the Guild are 50% reductions on the original), yet it is barely readable in the smaller res images I upload to Profantasy Forum, where I have already been asked if I mind the map being used in a game, despite it being only half finished.  I suspect that for every one who is polite enough to ask there are at least ten who don't bother.

Compass rose, scale and what have you are last to go in on my maps  :Wink:

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## Falconius

Looking great.  I noticed you got a few "real-time" elements there, such as the cloud and the moving boats, are you planning to populate the streets as well?

----------


## Mouse

Thanks Falconius  :Smile: 

I started populating the streets early on, and learned an important lesson about the right and the wrong way of doing things.  The fact of it was that the people and animals... I tried a few sheep and goats on the more inaccessible parts as well... were all so incredibly tiny that I kept losing them in the general mass of textures, roads and buildings.  There are probably still a few of those early mistakes lurking around in the drawing, but if there are - I can't find them!  LOL

I would _like_ to do it, right at the end, but we'll see if this file, which already has over 100 Sheets/Layers and goodness knows how many effects applied to it, can handle the extra strain.

I am sure that the people who know will tell me it can, so we'll see  :Wink: 

EDIT: Oh yes!  I just remembered.  I deliberately left one of them right where it was (well, a cart anyway), in the courtyard of the wainwrights on the main road off the island near the top of the map - on the mainland.  He might not be there still, because it was a long time ago now, but I believe I put a horse between its shafts  :Wink:

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## Falconius

Oh yeah I see it.  That is tiny  :Smile:

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## Mouse

I think I might add the people and animals and things just to make it more interesting - kind of... "Where's Wally", but I'm still quite a way off from that point.  I would then, however, have to cut the map into four quarters to be able to upload it so that everyone else can see them!  LOL

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## J.Edward

I love all the detail you are putting in this Mouse.  :Smile: 
I love the vineyards. They're a very nice addition.

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## Blaidd Drwg

I'm getting happily lost in all the little details. Can I go on vacation there to take a closer look?

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## Mouse

> I love all the detail you are putting in this Mouse. 
> I love the vineyards. They're a very nice addition.


Thanks J.Edward  :Very Happy:  

I enjoyed adding them (even if I was seeing double by the time I finished drawing all those dotty lines on all that dotty background).  I hope the detail makes it as real for others as it is in my head  :Wink: 




> I'm getting happily lost in all the little details. Can I go on vacation there to take a closer look?


LOL!  I am definitely going to have to postpone the end of the world, so that everyone who wants to can go and have a look.  You would be most welcome in the thatched homes and comfy little caves of the Merles, for they are nowhere near as xenophobic and sheer bad tempered as the haughty Blucrans, although they might expect you to do a bit of mucking in - help with the fishing, and so on, but then you'd get a chance to see the amazing corals and the pillars they form in the very clear waters of Ethran, for if they liked you well enough the Merles would take you out to the Merritites - their remaining 'home islands' (not shown on this map).

How are you at picking grapes?

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## Mouse

Version 39

Windmills!

I'm afraid I spent the couple of hours I had to myself today making windmills in CC3+ - a personal triumph applying my recent learning about shaded polygons, aligned fills and circular arrays.  Pity they have to be so tiny, really.  Never mind.  They're done, and ready to pump the water and sewage around the city in some very big pipes through all those rather convenient cave systems.  No ugly pipes or aqueducts on the surface then  :Smile: 

...

CC3+ users:

I found a way to make tree symbols with poor transparency qualities work a whole lot better when they are being used as such tiny entities.  You put a very slight amount of black inner glow on the tree sheet, and all those annoying white ghosts just vanish.  It also works wonders at the Merelan City scale to give them more of a leafy texture  :Wink:

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## Mouse

I am ever so sorry, but life has kind of gotten in the way, so there may be a lengthy delay before anything else happens on this thread.  

Thank you for your interest.

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## Falconius

I'm very sorry to hear that Mouse.  Whatever happened to you I hope you recover swiftly and fully.  God bless.

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## - JO -

I'm very sorry to hear that too... I hope it's only temporary, and that you'll be back very soon !
You spent so much time and energy in your beautiful map... Now I'm sure everyone would like to see it finished ! I hope it'll be possible one day...
Meantime, I wish you all the best, and I'm looking forward to hear better news from you !

God bless

----------


## Mouse

@ Falconius and Jo - Thank you, both for being concerned.  Its nothing serious.  Just a personal upset. that's all.

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## - JO -

I hope it'll go away !
take care !

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## Josiah VE

So sorry to hear, I hope things get better for you.

----------


## Mouse

Thank you.

----------


## Mouse

Version 40

Benchmark

This version reflects the loss of a rather large and independently supplied symbol set that I was using in addition to the Profantasy software.  The red crosses are how CC3+ marks the location of missing reference files.

I have decided to draw and create my own additional symbols to replace them. I am aiming to do this with the help of Blender (for the basic tree shapes), CorelDraw, for the leaves, and NeotextureEdit, for the one missing texture in the map - the rubble that served as my rocky shores.

I have no idea how good or bad it will look, but that's most of the fun of making a map.

Progress, of course, will be slow compared to before, although I think I can probably replace all the buildings fairly quickly with one or more of the City Designer 3 sets  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Version 41

I replaced the three missing fills (there were two in the frame as well as the one in the map) and deleted all the tree Xs.  The island looks very bare now, but things will get better.

I've left the building Xs in place because that's my next job - to rebuild all the houses.

The ivy frame is just a stop gap fill - one of my own making.  I will be doing a new wood texture before long  :Smile:

----------


## - JO -

What happened ?

----------


## Mouse

Hey Jo  :Smile: 

I uninstalled 2/3 of my symbol set - all the NON CC3 ones.

I still have the Bogie Mapping Objects installed, which is why there's still a map to look at, because most of the textures are Bogie textures.  

That was what upset me yesterday.  I couldn't see a way of carrying on with half the map missing like that, and I was about to give up, but I feel much better about the whole thing now thanks to the support I was shown by the Profantasy Team, and I now have a new way of looking at the situation:  This isn't a disaster - its a new opportunity.  I've been meaning to make a few of my own symbols anyway - so why not start right here and now?

It has of course meant that I didn't have time to be part of the Lite Challenge, but I can enter another one someday  :Smile: 

So... It looks like you aren't the only one who will be drawing lots of trees  :Smile:

----------


## - JO -

I'm glad to read that you're back on your map...
But I understand that it was kind of a
disaster !!!!
I salute your courage to go back on this map 
and to work on your own symbols !

Your map is so promising that it's really a good thing that you don't quit !

If I can help, let me know... I would be glad to draw symbols for you, if you want !

----------


## Mouse

Oh Jo, bless you.  And thank you for the very kind offer, but I think I'm going to be all right now.  I'm kind of excited about the renovation job.  You know how it is - you do something that doesn't quite please you, and then it gets buried under a whole lot of other stuff and you keep meaning to go back and root out the problem, but never seem to get around to doing anything about it?  Well, now I get a second chance to do it all better than before.

Besides I already have quite a lot of your ships  :Wink:   Thank you for those, Jo.  Not even the symbol set I have lost could come anywhere near them for beauty and perfection.

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## Falconius

I very glad to hear you are foraging on mouse.  It's a big loss but given the workmanship you've demonstrated here on this map I don't doubt what you come up with will be better anyways in the end  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Thank you so much for your support Falconius  :Smile:

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## ChickPea

Sorry to hear of your setback, Mouse, but you've got the right attitude. Go make something even better!  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Aw thanks ChickPea.  I'll give it my best shot  :Smile:

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## Diamond

I'm really glad you didn't quite 'the biz'!  You have a talent for layout and presentation, and now I'm anxious to see what you can do with creating your own symbols.  I'm sure Merelan will be better than ever.

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## Mouse

Thanks Diamond. That means a lot coming from you  :Smile:

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## kacey

I was sad to hear about you loosing all that work, so it's good to see you're moving forward on it anyway... so glad I might actually be able to see this finished one day.

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## Mouse

Don't be sad Kacey  :Smile:  

I can't promise it will be anything but dead slow for a little while around here, but I do think its really quite funny that while you have resolved your own little tree problem, I am now busily buzzing around a set of my own trees  :Smile:   I'm not very good at it right at the moment, but here is a sort of... skeleton of an idea of one of them:



Well... dead trees are the easiest I think because they don't have all that 'twigage' and 'leafage' to worry about.  I haven't really got the hang of the branches yet, and its a perfectly horrible colour, but its a start rather than nothing to show.  :Wink: 

I think I will call it "Dislocated Spaghetti tree" and move on to the next attempt!  LOL

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## - JO -

The spaghetti tree is not all garbage, I think. Maybe if you cut the last branches, or, at least, make it black ? then you should have a good start to add leaves, don't you think ?

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## Mouse

Yes.  I think you may be right about that, Jo, but since this only took me about five minutes to draw I will probably make a new one all the same  :Wink: 

I'm going to start a new thread somewhere and leave this one behind. I might do a thread about the creation of the trees, but I don't know if that would really fit in any of the categories.  I'll see.

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## Josiah VE

I'm so glad you're continuing this, and making your own stuff as well, that's awesome!

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## Mouse

Thanks Josiah  :Smile: 

Its really not that difficult with CC3.  You just draw your image (with a transparent background) in a suitable image manipulator (I use CorelDraw and Corel Photopaint 11 because that's what I've got, but I imagine Photoshop, Gimp or any of the other raster based programs would work just as well), then I export it as a masked PNG image into the User Symbols folder, and can instantly paste as many scaled, reflected and rotated versions as I like on my map.  Its as easy as that  :Smile: 

Not easy, however, is going back to drawing stuff.  I'm obviously a little rusty - haven't done this for years and years, as you can tell by the aged nature of my software!

I'm going to leave this thread for a while and start a new one about making all the new symbols.  When I've started it I will put a link into this comment so anyone who is interested can hop over there to see what's going on  :Smile:

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## - JO -

Hey ! how is it going with those trees ?
I hope you're happy with your work !

edit : Sorry : I had forgotten to look for the new thread...

edit 2 : ... that I can't find. In which section do you grow those trees ?

----------


## Mouse

Mmmn-Ah.  They... had a bit of a set back.  I was extremely busy with something else.  Sorry!

I've only done one more than before, but I need to find the right place to start a tree building thread.  There doesn't seem to be too many of those around for me to find a nice little niche among them!  LOL

There's a frenzy of activity going on behind the scenes, I 've started making my own textures as well - one or two of which will be suitable (hopefully) as material to cut leafy canopy from, which will make the tree building a lot easier once I've mastered the branches  :Wink: 

Here is the second draft - black and white (one thing at a time - I'll do the colouring when I've got the structure right).  Its got a _horrible_  ugly top to it, but... I think its an improvement?

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## Mouse

I am also beginning to think that using a bevel is a bad idea - too cartoony for the job I need them to do.  I need to relax and trust my own drawing skills - to just let it flow.

I was a painter before I became a cartographer  :Wink:

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## - JO -

It's certainly is ! Just ta stain in the middle, on the top. Just make it a start of one of those big branch ?


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

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## Josiah VE

That tree is really nice! I think when it's small at the scale it would be it will be fine. No one's going to have a tree on their map that's 2000x2000 pixels.  :Very Happy: 

You used to be a painter? So you do have artistic skill. Have you tried drawing maps from hand instead of using a mapping program?  :Smile:

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## Abu Lafia

Just saw, you're stroking your labels aswell mouse (so it's maybe a bit too much info in my reply to your question in snodsy's troll mountain thread...)  :Very Happy:  Haven't commented yet on this project of yours. I really love your city layout and it's great to see you continuing it after the drawback with the symbols and making your own stuff now. The new tree looks damn good, and i agree, the bevel isn't even needed. Keep up the great work!  :Smile:

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## Mouse

> That tree is really nice! I think when it's small at the scale it would be it will be fine. No one's going to have a tree on their map that's 2000x2000 pixels. 
> 
> You used to be a painter? So you do have artistic skill. Have you tried drawing maps from hand instead of using a mapping program?


Thank you Josiah  :Very Happy: 

The scale is large because I may end up re-using these trees in a dungeon style map before I'm through  :Wink: 

I used to paint landscapes in oil, and although they were only ever mediocre, I did manage to sell two or three of them. All that kind of thing stopped however, when I lost the house and had to move into a tiny flat, where there isn't enough space for such things.  A PC takes up far less room than a full sized easel and all the mess and smell that goes with it.  As for drawing with pen and ink - I'm pretty poor, and never the slightest bit satisfied with what I do with that kind of media.




> Just saw, you're stroking your labels aswell mouse (so it's maybe a bit too much info in my reply to your question in snodsy's troll mountain thread...)  Haven't commented yet on this project of yours. I really love your city layout and it's great to see you continuing it after the drawback with the symbols and making your own stuff now. The new tree looks damn good, and i agree, the bevel isn't even needed. Keep up the great work!


Thank you Abu  :Very Happy: 

Since I haven't read that one yet I still don't know what you mean by stroking the labels - LOL!  At a guess you mean the black glow around the white letters.  I will go and have a look at Snodsy's thread now and see if I'm right  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 42

This is going to look a bit different to the way it was before, but please feel free to voice whatever you feel.  I've reduced the scale - buildings and textures.  I've replaced the rocks texture with one I made for myself, and I'm using primarily built in CC3 symbols and quite a few fills and extra symbols from the Bogie Mapping Objects collection.

Everything will be much smaller than it was before, so you may need to get your reading glasses on to see any of the detail.

The trees are still in the pipeline, but you may see a couple of experimental tree-like objects lurking around on top of the island and one in the marsh (I think) - there for the testing.

----------


## Falconius

It looks a lot clearer and cleaner now, even zoomed in to a comparable level as the last previous posted map.  The buildings don't seem to have the same aliasing issues.  

I think the leafless trees are great, the green ones do look a little flat though.  About the only thing I actually preferred in the previous one was the green roofs on the buildings in the square, and the roughness of the vineyards.  Also I assumed in the previous one they were roofing with wood shingles, now it appears to be roofing with slate from the surrounding rock.  Which actually kind of makes more sense, since people build with what's nearby for the most part.

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## Mouse

> It looks a lot clearer and cleaner now, even zoomed in to a comparable level as the last previous posted map.  The buildings don't seem to have the same aliasing issues.  
> 
> I think the leafless trees are great, the green ones do look a little flat though.  About the only thing I actually preferred in the previous one was the green roofs on the buildings in the square, and the roughness of the vineyards.  Also I assumed in the previous one they were roofing with wood shingles, now it appears to be roofing with slate from the surrounding rock.  Which actually kind of makes more sense, since people build with what's nearby for the most part.


Thanks Falconius  :Very Happy: 

The clearer buildings are down to three things: I'm using built in CC3 symbols, and they are _unbelievably_ high res - good enough to blow up and use as buildings in dungeon maps, the scale is half what it used to be, so everything will be a lot sharper anyway, and I've added a very slight black glow to the sheets/layers with the buildings on them to make them 'pop' very slightly from the background.

Thanks for having a look at the trees for me.  I couldn't decide about the green one.  Its meant to be a silver birch, but you're right - it really doesn't work all that well.  Never mind, it was only a 2 minute 'splodging' experiment.  It doesn't even have a trunk or any branches  :Wink: 

That's great that you realised what I was thinking when I modified the base colour of the buildings to make them more similar to the surrounding stone.  Making them look like the people were using what was lying around was my intention.  I'm also hoping that since a great many of the trees will be in a dying state (and therefore various shades of orange, yellow and brown) that the silver/grey buildings will act as a foil for their last burst of colour.  Some of the flowering trees will even be in flower out of season - as trees do have a tendency to do some very strange things when they are under stress.

The vines have sharpened up and become more ridged lines because I halved the scale of the texture being used to fill them.  I think I will have to experiment with a bit of fractalization to see if I can't get that 'fluffy' feel back.  Failing that, I may use a second copy of the same fill and set it back to the original resolution level.

As for the copper roofed buildings... I think I can do something about that using the same technique that I used with the temple and the windmills - none of which are actual buildings, but merely groups of shaded polygons with aligned fill styles  :Wink:

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## kacey

Glad to see this coming back to life Mouse, It's looking good, I like the new buildings better then the old ones, they look really nice.

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## Mouse

Thank you Kacey  :Very Happy: 

Those are Profantasy CC3 buildings - they come with the software, so I can't really take any credit for how good they look, other than for the particular combination of sheet effects I have applied to them.

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## Mouse

Version 43:

The Windmills of Morran (bottom right hand corner).

I drew the windmills some time ago, but I've only just gotten around to generating a suitable texture to complete the ground around them - the ground vines (also known as 'pace flowers' by the locals).  

Also finished (or more or less) are all the buildings in that bottom right-hand 'corner' (Morran).

I can't seem to make the vineyards fuzzy with sheet effects alone.  I suspect I am rendering this map at a slightly different resolution to the way I was doing it before, and the sharp lines really are sharp nowadays.  I think this calls for another transparent texture similar to the ground vines, but now I know how to make transparent textures it shouldn't take that long.  

I've made new copper-roofed buildings similar to the original for the entrance/gate into the city in the north, but I suspect the new copper fill I made is a little too flat.  I'll work on it  :Smile:

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## - JO -

So good to see Merelan coming back to life !!!!
Great job to recover or redo everything that disapeared !
You showed great courage !

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## Mouse

Aw thanks, Jo  :Very Happy: 

Novel and map are inextricably linked in my mind.  There cannot be one, without the other, and I wouldn't really say I was 'brave' as such (though I thank you for the compliment).  More like cast-iron stubborn! LOL

----------


## Robbie

Speaking of novels... 

Sent from my m8wl using Tapatalk

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## Mouse

Yes Robbie?

EDIT:  If you mean have I finished it yet - the answer is no.  I had a few life problems going on that put a kink in my plans (my father died) and everything is currently, er... a _not-unattractive_  kind of... pear shape!  

I need to finish all the maps before I repair the writing that went a bit off the rails at that time.  Plus there are a lot of new ideas to put into the story that have happened as a result of drawing the maps - Somnee Arena and the story that goes with it is one of them.

I have MC to finish, and then a smaller project of the Ruins of Urrowan, which I'm hoping will only take me a couple of weeks after I finish MC - which itself is hopefully going to be done within a fortnight now - tree and tent drawing skills providing.

Then I reckon it will take about 3 months to tidy up the script to the point where I'm ok about it leaving my hands  :Smile:

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## kacey

> Thank you Kacey 
> 
> Those are Profantasy CC3 buildings - they come with the software, so I can't really take any credit for how good they look, other than for the particular combination of sheet effects I have applied to them.


I've never seen anyone use cc3 quite the way you do, it just keeps looking better, and better.

----------


## Mouse

Thanks Kacey  :Smile: 

I'm not doing anything special with it that no one else can do.  I'm probably just using more layers and effects than anyone else can be bothered with sorting out, that's all.  The current count is 130 sheets (equivalent to PS layers), and about 300 sheet effects scattered through them, based on an approximate average of 3 effects per sheet.  

I also tend to experiment with different blend modes and matrices just to see what they will do, and when I find a result I like I keep it, or remember it for future use.

It might surprise you to know that I haven't even touched on about five of the effects yet - the lighting effects.  That's because I haven't had any reason to use them, though I may very well do so in the next map, which will be the ruins of Urrowan Palace - either at dusk, or at night.

I'm also really enjoying the map.  I find it therapeutic to loose myself in fantasy (which is probably this coward's way out of having to face reality).

----------


## Mouse

Version 44

My laptop decided to throw a 'KMode Exception Not Handled' blue screen at me and shut down without warning a couple of times (That's the OS kicking up a fuss about something - nothing to do with the mapping software).  Not to worry - the HDD has been checked and is ok, and I've backed everything up  :Smile:  

The upshot of this is that I have lost a significant amount of time on the map, so its not as advanced as I was hoping it would be by now.  The new bits are on top of the island and the south coast.

----------


## Mouse

Version 45:

Its taken a while today to add all the detail to the north facing cliff beneath the observatory, complete with 90% of the paths in that area.  I'm hoping to get far more done in the next 24 hrs - maybe even complete all the housing.  The top of the island won't have very much on it - too dangerous to live there, except near a windmill (the movement deflects screamers in the same way that spinning DVDs deflect birds from a strawberry patch)  :Smile:

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## - JO -

Wow ! So precise, so much details... Now the mountain is really coming alive !
And you showed so much tenacity ! and the result is totally worth your courage !

I really love all the care you put in details, especially all the trails, as you said it was one of your favorite part ! Somnee, as you said, is full of promises, and the shipyard is great too !

I hope you're enjoying drawing that map as much as we do watching it !!!

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## Mouse

Thank you Jo  :Very Happy: 

I sharpened up the tracks and paths by reversing the glow I had on them so the edges were sharper, but I'm undecided as to whether that was a very good idea, since they now seem to overpower the city with their presence in places... I could darken them a bit, but I am reluctant to tone them down since I rather like the distinctive chalk/limestone country thing of having all those very pale paths.  Besides, if I did that they wouldn't show up at all in the higher regions where the grass is dead.

I think I will have a look at that today, as well as seeing if I can't get at least half the rest of the housing sorted out.

(I'm starting to really feel the drive to finish this thing and move on to another idea I've got)

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## - JO -

One map calls another one...

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## Mouse

And like a stream... they flow  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 46:

In this version I'm showing the process of planning the road structure on an area of map where they have not yet been defined.  These are the thin white lines in the south west of the map.  The strange colours on the land beneath them are a temporary transparent markers that help me see at a glance which of the sheets I need to place the roads and houses on when I get to the point of making everything final.  

All these marks are just an idea, since many of the roads are in ridiculous or impractical places, but they help me think where I'm going when I have the snaking end of an actual road attached to my cursor, and I'm laying it down on the land - one click at a time  :Smile:

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## darcycardinal

Just love watching this map unfold... keep the great work up *Mouse*!

*-darcycardinal*

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## Mouse

Thank you Darcy  :Smile: 

I am working very hard on it just now to try and get it finished - so hard in fact that I see I was tired enough to write south east instead of south west in my last post!  (now amended).

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## Mouse

Version 47

I've more or less completed the lower half of the area I marked up yesterday (except that because its full of orchards, and the trees aren't there yet, it looks a lot too bare), and will move on to hopefully finish the housing altogether in the next version.

Then I just have the trees, tents and boats to sort out  :Smile:

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## darcycardinal

> Version 47
> 
> I've more or less completed the lower half of the area I marked up yesterday (except that because its full of orchards, and the trees aren't there yet, it looks a lot too bare), and will move on to hopefully finish the housing altogether in the next version.
> 
> Then I just have the trees, tents and boats to sort out


Sweet, this is unfolding very nicely. How many layers are you working with now? and whats the load/save time for such a piece?

*-darcycardinal*

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## Mouse

> Sweet, this is unfolding very nicely. How many layers are you working with now? and whats the load/save time for such a piece?
> 
> *-darcycardinal*


Hey Darcy  :Smile:   Thanks

Layers in CC3 are called Sheets and we use them in a similar way to the way that Layers function in software like PS or GIMP.

I have approximately 135-140 sheets right at this moment in time, and add a couple more each day as I think of new things to put on the map.

Zooming and panning are relatively easy in CC3+, which is a lot faster than CC3 or any of its predecessors.  Most people work with the sheet effects turned off, to increase the speed, but I have several sheets that without their transparency would be impossible to use with the effects turned off, and which I need as a visual reference.  The relief shading sheets are a good example of this, since the relief shading polygons are solid black without their transparency and blur effects.

To get around having to work with the effects turned on in such a large map, I pick a level to work on (a level in the geography of the island) and work with about 30-40 sheets around that level visible, which reduces the time taken for zooming and panning to no more than about 5 seconds.  I look on this time as time to think and consider my next move - to think about whether I should put this house here... or over there...or what particular shape to draw this or that patch of fill... LOL

Most CC3+ maps are about a tenth the size of this one and have only a very small fraction of the number of sheets and effects.  With those there is little or no lag on zooming and panning  :Wink: 

I hope that answers your questions  :Smile: 

EDIT: Load time for this one?  Approximately 10 seconds.  Save time - negligible.

----------


## Mouse

A little list for anyone who's interested in the file size etc, and while I render Version 48...

This is a list of all the objects in the Merelan City map (I discovered the info button!)

It doesn't show the sheets or effects - I haven't found that button yet.

----------


## Mouse

Version 48:

The city is finished as far as buildings, roads and paths are concerned.  Now I will start to work on the trees, tents and boats.  The next version may be some time!

----------


## darcycardinal

> Hey Darcy   Thanks
> 
> Layers in CC3 are called Sheets and we use them in a similar way to the way that Layers function in software like PS or GIMP.
> 
> I have approximately 135-140 sheets right at this moment in time, and add a couple more each day as I think of new things to put on the map.
> 
> Zooming and panning are relatively easy in CC3+, which is a lot faster than CC3 or any of its predecessors.  Most people work with the sheet effects turned off, to increase the speed, but I have several sheets that without their transparency would be impossible to use with the effects turned off, and which I need as a visual reference.  The relief shading sheets are a good example of this, since the relief shading polygons are solid black without their transparency and blur effects.
> 
> To get around having to work with the effects turned on in such a large map, I pick a level to work on (a level in the geography of the island) and work with about 30-40 sheets around that level visible, which reduces the time taken for zooming and panning to no more than about 5 seconds.  I look on this time as time to think and consider my next move - to think about whether I should put this house here... or over there...or what particular shape to draw this or that patch of fill... LOL
> ...


*Thanks for clarifying Mouse.* I am currently using PSP X9 and started to heavily use those sheets that you mentioned. I sort of learned the hard way why its good to work with those and not just on one layer. Gimp is okay, and of course the premium program is Photo Shop, but never used my CC account that much, so I ended it.

For some reason, saving on my machine takes anywhere from 30-60 seconds, mined you its an old HP Elitebook Workstation laptop, so I'll probably have to upgrade soon.

Are you running off of SSD's on your rig?

*-darcycardinal
*

*EDIT: Post 100! Woohoo!*

----------


## Mouse

> *Thanks for clarifying Mouse.* I am currently using PSP X9 and started to heavily use those sheets that you mentioned. I sort of learned the hard way why its good to work with those and not just on one layer. Gimp is okay, and of course the premium program is Photo Shop, but never used my CC account that much, so I ended it.
> 
> For some reason, saving on my machine takes anywhere from 30-60 seconds, mined you its an old HP Elitebook Workstation laptop, so I'll probably have to upgrade soon.
> 
> Are you running off of SSD's on your rig?
> 
> *-darcycardinal
> *
> 
> *EDIT: Post 100! Woohoo!*


I have a bottom of the range 3 year old HP Pavilion laptop with a good old fashioned HDD in it, and only use an external SSD for system backup.  In fact, I only have the SSD because I learned the hard way about the impermanence of all things when the main cooling fan on my 10 year old desktop failed during an overnight render of a fluids animation scene done in Blender  :Frown: 

I don't think it really matters what software you use, as long as you can fly it, and I have always thought that judging a map by the software that was used to create it was a bit like judging the merits of a painting by the particular qualities of the raw canvas on which it is painted - rough, smooth, cotton, linen etc.

It doesn't really matter what you fly, as long as you enjoy it, and you fly it to the best of your ability  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

I still can't work out where else to put these, and since they are being created primarily to populate the city map I will carry on adding them here.

This is the first serious dead tree symbol I've made:



And this is the tree in use:



The lesson I have learned from making this version is: white branches show up in a really distinctive way, so don't add too many to the other 5 versions (I will be making five versions of each type of tree) or they will be readily identifiable if they are too close together on the map.

----------


## - JO -

The city comes realy fine ! Such a pleasure to see the whole picture ! 
It's realy great to see a long and hard project coming to an end (even if it's never completely finished... as always)

It's really a great map, and I'm glad to have learn a lot about the city through your progress in the making !
I do hope it will be possible to read your stories !

----------


## Mouse

Hey Jo  :Very Happy: 

Its not finished yet - Now its my turn to spend a few days drawing and pasting trees (and quite a few tents as well)!

The book and the novel have become inextricably tangled in my mind, so now I must finish the maps before I can finish the tale.

Thanks for the encouragement and the compliment  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Well... I think I've cracked the dead trees - the dead and fire blackened oak trees by the pyre anyway  :Smile: 



I would like to do more than just three basic variations, now that I've got the hang of it, but since time is of the essence, and I already have what I need to create all the dead trees I need on the island, I will move on to the more leafy variations  :Wink:

----------


## Josiah VE

Those trees look awesome, nice job.

----------


## Mouse

Aw - thanks Josiah  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

Another winter/dead tree, but not as successful this time.  Its meant to be an aspen (or a birch tree, if you prefer), but the smaller spread of the tree when viewed from above, and the finer nature of its structure in comparison to the large oaks I did before means that most of the detail is lost in a map like MC when it doesn't have any foliage on it.  



This image is a zoom level too far for the ground textures of the map itself, which are starting to pixelate at this range.  The trees are in comparison still very much in focus with some way to go before they start to pixelate.  I made them hi-res because I want to be able to use them at any scale I chose in the future - battle maps included.

EDIT:  an improved render of the same area with the aspen placed beneath the oak trees and the intensity of the shadows reduced to a more sensible level - following the advice from a friend of mine on another forum  :Smile: ...  :Wink:

----------


## waldronate

One way to quickly trim out the twiggier bits and keep the overall skeleton of the tree is by using a max (or min; I get those confused) filter on the image. It will quickly remove the thinnest structures while leaving the thicker ones intact. After the max filter, apply the min filter as much as you applied the max filter and your tree will be back to its original size with just the thinner bits removed. This technique might be most effective if applied to a mask of the tree rather than the raw tree image and then using that mask image to clean up the tree. I mention this because it's a technique that will often preserve the essential nature of tree without just turning it into a fuzzy blob at lower resolutions.

That sounded overly confusing, didn't it? I'll try to remember to spend a bit of time writing a couple of simple morphological effects for CC3+ (basically min and max over an area) to enable this sort of thing more quickly and directly in the software.

----------


## Mouse

Hey Waldronate  :Very Happy: 

I'm not anywhere near as brainy as you are, and relatively easy to confuse, so being confused is a sort of normal state for me, and probably nothing to do with what you said.  Don't worry - I'm used to it  LOL

I do have a question, however, since you seem to be talking about a whole new level of tools hidden somewhere within CC3.  Where might I find these here max and min filters?  As you can gather, I still haven't completely explored all the possibilities yet  :Smile: 

EDIT:  Ah!  I read your post again and again till I realised I got completely the wrong end of the stick (maybe).  You were talking about PS filters maybe?  I don't have PS.

I'm still using a very broken version of CorelDraw that keeps crashing whenever it has an argument over active memory allocation with Win 10, and the max/min filters on that are... um... rather a lot out of date and relatively crude - 10-15 years out of date, I think.  (Yes, I know its a dinosaur - but a dinosaur that enables me to draw trees, nonetheless LOL)

----------


## waldronate

I haven't written a min or max effect for CC3+ yet, so there's not one in there yet and probably won't be until at least the next official update (probably around the time that the Cosmographer 3 update comes out). I have an unfortunate habit of thinking about things in public that I haven't yet quite accomplished.

I was thinking of using something like Photoshop, which has those filters. Unfortunately, my Photoshop machine is currently being used for the purposes of petty local politics, so I'll try to do something with Wilbur, which has a very rough implementation of this sort of thing. The Wilbur filters give a blocky rendition of the concept, but converting the above image to grayscale, roughly picking out the dark tree area, doing the max and min process described above, and then using that image to show the affected area on top of the original image shows very poorly that the thinner bits got removed:



Not suitable for any real purpose, but I was using the wrong tool for the job and I didn't start with the source material that would be most amenable to this sort of processing.

EDIT: The filters in Wilbur are about 20 years old, so I do understand fighting using stone-tipped spears.

----------


## Mouse

OH _MY!...._ You have no idea how _GORGEOUS_ that is as an image in its own right - when you forget what it is and take it as an abstract!  I could quite easily frame it and put it on my wall!  :Smile: 

(Sorry I get a bit distracted by patterns and subtle changes in colour  :Smile:  - typical Aspie!)

I see what you mean about the max/min thing, and I think there is probably a way of doing it by reducing the mask in the CPT image before I export it to PNG format for symbol use.  I may have to do that, just for the MC map, but I will have a think about it and see what they look like once I've got a few on there with leaves on them.

Thank you ever so much for taking the time and trouble to create that work of art for me  :Very Happy:

----------


## Mouse

Well... I have a foliage solution...

After spending about a week trying out various splodging techniques with various fixed 'brushes' in my archaic version of Corel Photopaint, I didn't really have anything to show for it, except a few reasonably attractive blob shapes. I just couldn't seem to get the leafiness right.

Then I remembered I had Vue Pioneer and started messing around with the trees in that, till I came up with a solution. Its a bit limited because I only have so many kinds of trees in the free version, and none of them seem to be the ones that I want. However, there are distinct pluses to using Vue, which during rendering allows you to simultaneously create a pin-sharp alpha mask, so there are no transparency problems (unless you forget to turn the ground behind the tree in the 3D scene completely transparent and non reflective, and zero the atmosphere settings to get rid of haze and fog etc).

Here is the result - the foliage on this little tree is a rather acidic green, but that is one of the few things I can actually change in the free version of the software.

Bearing in mind the time limitations I have placed on myself to finish this map I'm going to use this technique to generate canopy shapes for the hand drawn winter trees, turning them into spring/summer/fall trees.  Either that or I will simply use the trees I render from Vue as symbols in their own right  :Smile:

----------


## ajrittler

Mouse, everything looks great.  Further inspiration for my next map (which will be no where near this scale!).  Can't wait to see more!

----------


## Mouse

Thanks Ajrittler  :Smile: 

This is a CC3+ map, but you should be able to recreate most of the effects I use without too much difficulty in PS.  If you want to know how I did something in particular just ask - I'm... _sort of_ ok at talking in pigeon PS at a basic level  :Wink: 

Never be afraid to start something big.  Even if you never finish it you will learn so very much from the attempt.  There have been many times when I nearly gave up with this one, but I'm very glad that I didn't  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

I've been trying to get the colours right on just one tree all night, because rendering lots of different trees in the wrong colours and having to do it all over again would waste a humungous amount of time.  

This is a test area of just the one test tree, pasted in the four colours I hope are closest to natural woodland, or parkland.  I haven't done any purple foliage trees, or autumnal trees just yet (at least, not any that look right), but they are next.



Comments and critiques welcome - too dark... too light... to intense... not intense enough.... etc  :Smile:

----------


## kacey

I think those colours look pretty good so far, except maybe the one on the far right overlapping the bigger path. To me it stands out from the rest, maybe its just that it's farther from the others, or it has a bluish undertone, I don't know, but I prefer the ones with a more yellowish hue. It almost feels like it needs to be a bit more muddy... If that makes any sense.

----------


## Mouse

LOL!  Muddy makes perfect sense, Kacey  :Smile: 

You mean not so intense - more grey/black/yellow in the mix.  

I was thinking that myself, but I'm going to take a short break and get some sleep - come back to look at it fresh.  I've been up for over 24 hrs right now.  That's how obsessed I can get about these things - don't even notice the hours floating by.

----------


## - JO -

You made a really great job with those trees ! They really look alive to me.
I think they are all right like this.... To my mind, if you really had to change something, that would be the orange tint on the dead tree. I know it's too much regarding a real tree. But it could be dialed down a bit.... But it's only if you absolutely want to do something about those trees.. they are just fine the way they are !

----------


## Mouse

Thanks Jo  :Smile: 

Thank you both - Jo and Kacey - I forgot my manners last night!

Its really helpful to know what two such great tree connoisseurs think of the job so far  :Smile: 

Now that I look at it again with fresh eyes, I totally agree the dead trees are waaaay too orange, and the greenest tree is possibly right on the edge of being a bit too much green, but here is a fascinating trick for you with colour...

 

The same tree, in the same four colours, and the same dead trees.  The only difference is that they have been pasted on the darkest greenest grass in the map (and I had to pull the zoom a bit so you could see them all).

----------


## Mouse

Ok - I think I've licked the colour problem with just the one tree - autumn versions and purple foliage version now included.  About the only one I'm not altogether happy with is the deepest orange.  I think I might have to turn that one brown and call it a dead tree with leaves on it  :Wink: 



The two silver trees are aspen, or birch I rendered yesterday (once I discovered how to stop them being so acid green).  They seem to have a more realistic shape and form to them, and go a lot better with the rest of the trees.  

I'm still missing a couple of those light green colours you get in the early spring, but they aren't going to be half as much of a problem as getting just exactly the right shade of purple!  (and even now I'm not sure I have it 100% right)

Unless anyone has any suggestions or comments about the colours as they stand I'm going to start manufacturing a set of about 25 different shapes and sizes of tree, each of all the colours, which will be about 150 trees and take me a couple of days.  So I may be some time!  LOL

UPDATE: three more greens to add to the mix...

----------


## ChickPea

Those look great! I love the variation of colour.

----------


## Mouse

Thanks ChickPea  :Very Happy: 

I've noticed how I seem to be working on this map in a strange synchronous fashion with the Challenges - first an arena at Somnee, and now a carefully controlled colour palette of trees. 

I just hope you don't go and decide to set the next Challenge as 'map a battle ship deck' or something, or I'm going to end up in a right old fix!  LOL

----------


## ChickPea

> I've noticed how I seem to be working on this map in a strange synchronous fashion with the Challenges - first an arena at Somnee, and now a carefully controlled colour palette of trees.


It's nice to know the influence of the challenges reaches beyond the Community Participation folder!  :Very Happy: 




> I just hope you don't go and decide to set the next Challenge as 'map a battle ship deck' or something, or I'm going to end up in a right old fix!  LOL


I'm sure if you bung Diamond and Bogie some cash, that fate can be avoided!  :Razz:

----------


## Mouse

Would a couple of trees do?  Nicely colour matched, of course?  LOL!

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## kacey

The trees, are looking really good now Mouse, you're time nit picking over the colours has really paid off.

----------


## Mouse

Thanks Kacey  :Very Happy: 

And thank you also for the rep.  Its much appreciated  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

I've reached that point where I keep on trying harder and harder to make headway with this map, but I don't seem to be getting anywhere new, so I'm going to take a break from it and finish the book.

I will be returning to the task, however, so your comments and assistance will not have been in vain  :Wink: 

In the mean time - thanks to you all for all your help and advice - and before you think you might just have gotten rid of me, I will be taking a break from the writing each day to come and watch and comment on your maps, wherever I feel that my words might be of some use  :Smile:

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## darcycardinal

> I've reached that point where I keep on trying harder and harder to make headway with this map, but I don't seem to be getting anywhere new, so I'm going to take a break from it and finish the book.
> 
> I will be returning to the task, however, so your comments and assistance will not have been in vain 
> 
> In the mean time - thanks to you all for all your help and advice - and before you think you might just have gotten rid of me, I will be taking a break from the writing each day to come and watch and comment on your maps, wherever I feel that my words might be of some use


*Noooo, don't go away haha, I like to see what you have to say when i log into here!
*
Anyways, with larger projects like this, i can understand that getting into the small little details may make the project feel like its taking "forever" but it just makes one more step towards that finished project status. Will watch the thread for continued updates!

*-darcycardinal*

----------


## Mouse

> *Noooo, don't go away haha, I like to see what you have to say when i log into here!
> *
> Anyways, with larger projects like this, i can understand that getting into the small little details may make the project feel like its taking "forever" but it just makes one more step towards that finished project status. Will watch the thread for continued updates!
> 
> *-darcycardinal*


Hey Darcy  :Smile:   I'm not going away - just taking a break, that's all.  Just thought it was polite to say so, rather than leave people guessing...

As Diamond is famous for saying - I'll be watching you!  LOL

EDIT:  Thanks for the rep - much appreciated  :Smile:

----------


## Mouse

In the middle of a chapter  :Rolling Eyes: ... another tree idea  :Idea: ... leading to tree experiment number 2:



What do you think?  Are they better or worse than before?

Just to recap - this is before:

----------


## paulotutu

I think they're much better now, dude!
Liked the "new" colors too!

----------


## Mouse

Thank you Paulo  :Smile: 

My name is Sue, but I really don't mind being mistaken for a dude.  To me, being mistaken for a dude is a form of acceptance in a discipline that traditionally (in the UK at least), has always been a male dominated occupation.

----------


## woodb3kmaster

You've done a fantastic job with this map already, Sue - the level of detail is stunning! Of course, it may be that I'm not used to so much detail due to my limited exposure to CC3 maps, but it's still strikingly varied, yet cohesive. Bravo!

As for the new trees, I'm not sure they're an improvement. I don't quite know how to articulate it, but they seem somehow "harsher" in contrast to their surroundings, if that makes any sense. In comparison, your earlier trees seem to blend better with the ground while still being distinct from it. Perhaps a mild blur would help soften their appearance? (Lacking any formal art training, I'm not sure what exactly would make the new trees look more like the older ones, or what kind of effects you can apply to them in CC3, but this is my advice as a relative newb.)

All that said, both kinds of trees look way better than anything I could draw from scratch, so kudos on getting them to look so good! The new trees might not even look that different next to the older ones, but that's just a guess on my part. Keep up the great work!

----------


## Mouse

Thank you, woodb3kmaster  :Smile: 

There is currently a narrow 1% black outer glow... I believe this is called a 'stroke' in PS... on the trees to make them 'pop' from the background and stand out as being separate entities from any smaller shrubs I might choose to add around them.  The tree symbols have inbuilt variable transparency (gaps between the fronds), so this glow is active within the symbol itself as well as around its periphery... which is probably giving them a slightly sharper look than was originally intended.

I was using a blur on the previous trees, which are in most senses the same as the new ones; both sets of trees having been rendered from a single manipulated plum tree model in Vue (a 3D landscaping and animation package) in more or less the same way.  The major difference between the old trees and the new ones, in fact, is that the new trees are more subtle shades of brown and green, and comprise a stack of two separately rendered Vue trees with a shadow cast on the lower member of the stack to increase the overall illusion of height.  This last part of the tree manufacturing process was carried out using a very old copy of Corel Photopaint  :Wink: 

So far, I have 75 new trees, which I believe is more than adequate to stock the map without too much obvious repetition.  The only shame of it is that I don't have a pine tree in my freebie version of Vue, so I might leave them out altogether, unless I get some kind of burning desire to try drawing one from scratch in Photopaint  :Smile:

----------


## paulotutu

> Thank you Paulo 
> 
> My name is Sue, but I really don't mind being mistaken for a dude.  To me, being mistaken for a dude is a form of acceptance in a discipline that traditionally (in the UK at least), has always been a male dominated occupation.


Sorry about that! My bad!  :Wink: 


Enviado do meu iPhone usando Tapatalk

----------


## Mouse

Not at all Paulo.  An easy mistake to make when I give so little information about who I am on my profile!  LOL

----------


## Mouse

LOL! I've got myself into a vicious tree loop. I can't seem to stop fiddling with these trees!

This is a comparison test between the last most recent set of trees (Type A on the left), and a new set I'm developing without so much shadow within the symbol itself (Type B on the right).  This was triggered by woodb3kmaster's comments above, which I happen to agree with  :Wink: 

I'll try to make this the last tree test on this thread, as I'm sure it must be getting more than just a little bit tedious now, but I would very much appreciate any comments either way - which set is better?



EDIT:  I know the Type B colours are more than just a bit OTT, but its the texture I'm more concerned about here  :Wink:

----------


## ajrittler

> ...which set is better?


I'm not sure I can say "which set is better".  They all look great.  The last version it's like I can see the actual leaves.  Keep up the great work.

----------


## Mouse

Thanks ajrittler  :Smile: 

I've been having a lengthy chat about trees with my friends over on the Profantasy forum, and to summarise what has been said (combining it with what has also been said here), it seems that the general consensus of opinion favours the Type B trees, but only up to a point.

After a lot of different views were taken into account it looks as if I might be using both types in different places on the map - the tough weathered looking trees for the cliffs, and the softer looking foliage for the more sheltered parts of the island.

Other considerations are that Type B is far to bright (which I already knew - LOL), and concern that while both types might be fine in isolation at any scale, type B in particular might easily meld into a sea of brightly coloured oil paint blobs the further out the viewer zoomed.

I'll continue to work on both types, possibly settling on an intermediate type C with the best features of both  :Smile: 

However, progress will be slower now until I've perfected the trees.

The symbols I have left to do after the trees have been done are far easier, so I would say this map is within the last week of development.

----------


## Mouse

Ok - I lied.  

This is another tree test, but only a quick one.  In fact its more of a demonstration of the new improved Type B trees I will be manufacturing for the rest of the day - in the hope of populating the Island of Merelan with trees that will make sense with the general style of the map.

This time I have increased the contrast between the main foliage colour and the highlight colour so that there is more in the way of detail to be seen from a greater distance.  I have punished the image by rendering it from a greater distance and then reducing it by 50% in an attempt to destroy the treeishness of the new pale green tree with silvered leaves to the south of the older Type B trees (which do, I admit, look very much like blobs of oil paint now that I see them in this deliberately degraded image)

I chose the pale green silvered leaf variety to test, because this is the kind of tree that will most easily be lost against the grass, but I think its survived pretty well, considering my attempt to slaughter it  :Wink:

----------


## ajrittler

> Ok - I lied.


Sheesh, stop it!  :Smile:  (lying to us)

I think you've done a great job here, though I have to admit it's tough for me to see the differences since *Better trees 2.jpg* is at a higher resolution than *Better trees 3.jpg*. (I keep zooming in, zooming out to compare the two)

Better trees 3.jpg from a distance looks fantastic.  Can't wait to see the finished work!

----------


## Mouse

Thanks AJ  :Smile: 

You have answered a very important question for me - that of "Will they look right at the scale I intend to publish the map?"

Closer, and they look too flat.  Further out, and the detail starts to do funny things and becomes a pattern that makes the tree look a bit odd.

Now at least I know I am on the right track, which is good news - since I'm in the middle of manufacturing a set of some 150 individual trees, and hope to have this map finished now within the week  :Smile: 

MUCH LATER EDIT:  Well that was a lie, wasn't it!!! LOL!!!

----------


## Mouse

Version 49 (I think, but may have lost count).  Sorry its been a while!

After a lot of fiddling around with various techniques concerning trees I finally settled on a set I created from images rendered in Vue Pioneer.

Not so sure the colours work very well... Might need to reduce the saturation a bit!

C&C welcome  :Smile:

----------


## ThomasR

The trees really bring the place to life and the frame adds a little je-ne-sais-quoi (excuse my french, really) that makes the whole map pop. Great job !

----------


## Mouse

Merci beaucoup thomrey  :Very Happy:

----------


## - JO -

WOW !

So glad I could see this one finished !!!!

You spent so much time and effort in this one... and it was really worth it !

The effects are so well done that you really have the feeling of flying above the city ! 

Congratulations !!!!!

----------


## Mouse

Thanks Jo, though its not _quite_ finished yet  :Smile: 

I have a bit more forest, a few tents and a little touching up to be getting on with, but its close.  I've not decided whether I will put it up on Finished Maps or not when I'm done with it.  I'm sure everyone has seen quite enough of this map over the last couple of months, but I will let you know when its really finished.  Those _are_ your boats after all  :Wink:

----------


## Warlin

Great !  :Very Happy:

----------


## Voolf

Lovely looking map Mouse. 
One thing, I don't know what is the top left green part. I guess forest? It seems like it lacks some shadows. Close to the big island looks kinda flat.

Oh, i just relized this is veeery long thread. You have been working with this for quite a long time. Congratulations !

----------


## Mouse

> Great !


Thanks Warlin  :Smile: 




> Lovely looking map Mouse. 
> One thing, I don't know what is the top left green part. I guess forest? It seems like it lacks some shadows. Close to the big island looks kinda flat.
> 
> Oh, i just relized this is veeery long thread. You have been working with this for quite a long time. Congratulations !


Thanks Voolf  :Smile: 

That flat area is officially an area of salt marsh, but due to the drought its kind of dead-ish, hence the orange/brown unhealthy look of it as the river levels continue to fall and the salt water leaches further and further into the banks.  There are going to be trees there, but not before I've put all the refugee tents up (which means I have to draw them in).  Merelan City is about the last green spot left on Ethran, so there's almost a second city starting to grow up in the salt marsh - only the southernmost tip of which will be visible in this map.

I am, once again, hoping that this will be finished relatively quickly now, since I'm miles behind with the writing of the story!  LOL!

----------


## Falconius

Looks great, the trees as mentioned really do a great job.  I like that paved fan thing near the dome.  You should consider putting a scale in.

----------


## Mouse

Thanks Falconius  :Smile: 

The paved patio is from Bogie's Mapping Objects, and as far as a scale goes... hmmmn.  I sort of... compare the size of the thing I'm just about to paste, with the size of the things around it that I've already put in place, and adjust accordingly.  Since the buildings are all at one set scale it doesn't ever get too distorted anywhere.

I will put a scale on it for you, when I've finished pasting the trees on and drawn a few tents in place  :Wink:

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## Mouse

Version 50 - Trees... again.

Well... They look wonderful close up on the screen as I work:



But rendered out they are, as you can see, completely OTT.  I think I have to worry about scale issues of a different kind right now.  The brighter points on each tree are coalescing during post processing to make them practically luminous.  I just hope I don't end up having to re-render all 160 of them to put everything straight.

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## Voolf

The green trees looks very good imo, but some of the orange/red ones have to vivid colours to me, like colour burn layer has been used here. I would reduce saturation of those trees a bit down (if that's possible without rendering again in the software you are using).

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## Mouse

Thanks Voolf  :Smile: 

I was quite pleased with the green ones myself, but thanks for noting them.

I think that if I am being honest with myself I already knew the orange and red ones were a problem, but just wanted to check before I start messing with them again.  

Sine I made that comment about having to re-render them from Vue (when I was tired and not thinking straight), I realise now that all I really have to do is re-open each of the offending trees in Photopaint and, as you say, reduce the saturation.  It will actually be more tricky to replace the bright ones with the dull ones I create because there are so very many of them all mixed up together now, but all told it shouldn't really set me back more than a day or two  :Smile: 

Thanks for your help  :Smile:

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## Mouse

To answer the question of map scale:

This is a CC3+ map, which means it has no set scale other than the standard map units that define the size of the drawing and the relative default size of the symbols.  There are no physical size limits such as you would find with a bitmap image to worry about (other than when setting up the bitmap texture fills) because as a FastCAD vector drawing the map as a whole can be enlarged to any resolution.  The only limitation lies in the presence of the aforesaid bitmap texture fills, which will of course pixelate if you try to stretch it too big.  

Having said that, I have inadvertently set the scale by making a decision about how big to paste my houses and trees into the map, so it is on these features that I must now base the scale.

This particular map is 5000 x 5000 map units.  Using the distance measuring tool I have ascertained that the biggest trees (which should be no more than about 50ft across if this was a real location) are by some happy coincidence almost exactly 50 map units across.  This gives me an approximate figure of 1 map unit per foot, and means the entire map is only 5000ft x 5000ft.  Relatively small for a 'city'.  However, we are talking about a way of life that approximates to the middle ages, so I think I can still call it a city, rather than a town.  It is, after all, the largest single settlement on Ethran.

Now to convert feet to metres, which I prefer to work with.

5000ft = 1524m, so a scale bar that is 100m should be 5000/1524 x 100 map units

Knowing this, I can now set up an invisible snap grid and draw a nice scale bar... if I can find a suitable space!

Please let me know if you think there might be a fault with my calculations  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Version 51 - scale bar and compass

There are very few differences here, except that I have placed a scale bar and a compass from the old CC3 symbol set, and adjusted the position of the title to accommodate them.

I also found a quick way to get rid of the worst of the bright red and bright yellow trees, which involved swapping symbol definitions (replacing all the bright red and yellow trees with other less violently colourful members of the same symbol set).  I'm not completely satisfied with the end result, but I need to let them be while I sort out the last element to be added - the tents  :Smile:

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## Falconius

Looks great.  The scale looks good too, and well within reason.  Are those bare trees on top of the plateau there? I'm assuming they are, but they did look like craters or cracks in the earth at first, from what I assumed was some sort of war training going on up there.

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## Mouse

Thanks Falconius  :Smile: 

I'm not great with numbers, but I worked hard to make sure that the scale is at least approximately accurate.

LOL! Those are indeed dead trees on top of the island, and its more a case of the drought killing them off than any war games (sorry to disappoint).  I may need to make the transition a bit clearer by adding a few half living ones.  I'll come back to them when I've done the tents in the salt marsh area.

EDIT:  Personally, I think they do a really good impression of squashed giant ants!

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## Straf

Crikey! You've been busy.

I haven't seen this before and I'm afraid at 32 pages it's a bit tl;dr for me to follow. I particularly like the way you've done the lynchets. I'm assuming the people occupying the buildings at the bottom are poorer than those at the top as they'll get all of their runoff. However they'll be a lot closer to the delicious, salty samphire  :Very Happy: 

Well done  :Smile: 


EDIT: Ooh, I do believe this was my 100th post.

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## Mouse

Hey Straf  :Smile: 

Thanks, and welcome to Merelan City!

This is the main setting for much of the first book of the Chronicles of Errispa series I'm trying to write, although there will be excursions to many other parts of Ethran before the story is done.  I won't bore you with all the details here, now that we are so close to the end of the WIP thread, but those lynchets are the result of my best attempt to generate relief in a CC3 map, where the drawing is usually done with filled polygons and pasted symbols, rather than ink and lines.

I say _usually_, but I have been known to break the rules a bit in some of my more recent maps  :Wink: 

Did you know that this entire thread is only 8 pages long if you adjust your settings in your profile settings page so that you can view more comments on each page?

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## Straf

Yes but if I see a page of 40 posts I'll freak even more  :Surprised:  Besides having more posts on a page makes the server do more work which means that there's an increase in electricity consumption requiring more fossil fuels to be shovelled into a furnace or more isotopes decaying creating environmentally damaging by products.

So by being too lazy to read this whole thread I am, in fact, saving the world.  :Very Happy:

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## Mouse

Bravo, Straf  :Smile: 

I completely understand where you are coming from.

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## J.Edward

This is looking so good Mouse  :Very Happy: 
I love the trees, as well as all of the other wonderful details. 
You've done an exceptional job on this. Yep.  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Aw thanks J.Edward  :Very Happy: 

I now only have the tents to worry about, but I've an idea or two that should make relatively fast work of them  :Smile:

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## snodsy

Wow this is looking awesome and so much detail. Only thing I'd say is the house textures seems a little too spotty, maybe a smaller texture or less contrast on them?  Great job.

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## Mouse

Thanks snodsy  :Smile: 

You always give me something to think about.  First it was the heavy textures in the Bloodrock map, and now I have spotty houses?

I still haven't figured out the heavy textures, but at least I know what you mean about the spotty houses.  The trouble is that they are hi res houses shrunk incredibly small (which I'm sure you figured already anyway) but they are standard CC3+ symbols, so I can't really change them.  Each of those spots you see is an individual tile.



This is a screen shot zoomed in so close that you can see the sand material of the path is badly pixelated, but the house itself is still very sharp.

It may be that by changing the HSL of them (which is about all I can do to them because they are symbols) I have somehow upset the contrast in some way.  I don't know.  I'll have to experiment a bit.

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## Straf

"... and Merelan is particularly renowned for its spotty roofed houses..."

Ha, the guide book says they're a feature  :Wink:

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## Mouse

That's good, because it would take me about as long again as its already taken me to get this far to generate my own alternative house symbol set.  I'm not even entirely sure I understand how those symbols work.  They have a normal map that generates the shading with respect to the global sun setting.  And all I know about such things is that they are pretty blue and pink images that are somehow paired with the colour image to make them work that way.

I'm only a simple mind  :Smile:

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## Ilanthar

I's looking really good, Mouse. I like a lot the color palette and the general feeling, between an aerial photo and a more classical fantasy map.
I have one nitpick : the shadows of the piers/boats are a bit to much away from their objects, making them "floating" too much, imo.

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## Mouse

Aw thanks, Ilanthar  :Smile: 

Now that you have drawn my attention to them, I think you may be right about the boat shadows.  They are easily adjustable, however, so I will add that to the list of final tweaks to be looked at before I get as far as even thinking about calling it 'finished'  :Wink: 

Right at the moment I'm trying to draw tents for the refugees in the salt marsh to the north of the island - which isn't as easy as I had at first thought it would be.  I did a lot of thinking about the kinds of tents that might be available in a medieval time period, before leisure time ever really existed, and decided that modern tents were probably a bit too alien for the scene.  I settled on a tepee design for the nomadic plains dwelling Sorowans, as I figured that Native Americans would have worked out the best way of making a home thousands of years before any other kind of tent first appeared, and looked at lots of pictures and read lots of 'how to build your own tepee' pages.

The only thing that wasn't clear to me was just how big a tepee might be if it was designed to be large enough to house an extended family of 7-8 people, so these (below) might be rather a lot on the large side.  Does anyone know?  I've never seen a real tepee, but I hope I have managed to capture enough of the essence of one to make a few very tiny symbols - which are currently only draft and looking rather 'plastic' without any proper texture to them.  (for comparison, the trees are about 40ft in diameter)

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## Mouse

I just _had_ to show you this.  With a bit of patient help from the Profantasy Team (Remy Monsen to be precise) I managed to understand how symbols that are sensitive to the global sun are created, and made my own little tepees as all in one symbols, rather than lots of separate shaded polygons.



They do look a bit like barnacles right here on the default green background of a blank dungeon template file, but I think they will look cool in context once I start pasting them into the MC map and give them little shadows of their own.

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## Mouse

Version 53 - 'De-spotifying' the houses  :Wink: 

This version is actually a test map, despite the filename on the image.  It isn't a rendering of the main map, but of a similar one that evolved down a different branch of development.  That is why the marsh looks rather different.

I'm showing this variant to you because I've just spent the last 4 days de-spotifying the gothic houses (the grey ones), as I happen to agree with what Snodsy said a few comments ago about my spotty houses.  It's just that I never managed to find a solution for the problem until I learned how to make CD3 symbols as a result of needing to make myself a set of self-shading tents  :Wink: 

Please can you let me know if you think the spotty houses or the new smooth looking houses look better?  I've replaced about half of them in this image.

Thanks



_The copyright of this map belongs to Sue Daniel.  That means you are breaking the law if you pin, link, redistribute or sell hard or soft copy of this map (or any of its previous versions) without written permission from Sue Daniel: Cartographer’s Guild name “Mouse”;  Profantasy Forum name ”Loopysue”. _

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## Straf

Pfft! Someone will have to re-write the guide book if the spots go  :Wink:

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## Straf

Hmmm, this is a difficult one as the spotty houses look spotty but the ones you have de-spotified look like something from a Monopoly board - too unblemished. I think some spots add to the real character and I didn't really notice them until I saw the de-spotified.

I hope at least one word in there makes sense.

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## Mouse

Oh Straf!

You're incorrigible!  LOL!

Don't forget that this is only a test  :Smile: 

I take it you don't like the new smooth roofs?

EDIT:  Ninja'd by Straf!  LOL!

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## Straf

I think because the map in general is done in a more photo-realism style the smooth roofs don't fit and stand out a bit too much. They're more symbolic against a more artistic backdrop. Also the shading is very hard edge - perhaps you can make it a bit more fuzzy?

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## Mouse

I'm beginning to think that you might be right.

I'm also considering mixing things up a bit by using several different styles all mixed together.

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## Straf

Like pasta with sweet and sour curry?

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## Mouse

LOL!

Yes - a bit like that  :Smile:

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## Mouse

Here are some house texture and colour variations I've been considering using for the city in combination to add greater variety and do away with the spotty houses problem.

The single square house top left in these three images is constructed of simple shaded polygons, and unlike the other houses in the picture is not a symbol but a drawing.  It would take far too long for me to draw all the other houses in the city this way, but once I know if the work is worth it I can create a new symbol set of my own with the new roof fill(s).  The only question, really, is which one(s) do you think are possibly the best.  I have tried to pick a house that is close enough to all the different colours of tree for comparison  :Smile: 

Scallop tiles 1: 

Scallop tiles 2: 

Scallop tiles 3: 

Slate is a lot smoother than tiles, and generally comes in three colours; blue green and pink... but I think I may have gone a bit overboard with the smooth thing on these three:

Slate - blue: 

Slate - green: 

Slate - pink: 

In fact, I've more or less already decided that I need to go back and increase the contrast on the slate textures  :Wink:

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## Straf

I quite like the blue slate.

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## Mouse

Thanks Straf  :Smile: 

I'm thinking of using all six textures mixed together - the lower sections of the city would be built with the heavier tiles, whereas the higher regions might be more commonly built with the lighter weight slate.  Both these things having been imported from other locales.

I think using a mixture would make the city look more natural, even though I will in effect have to make 6 new symbol sets, rather than just 1.  Once I have drawn all the houses I will need in CorelDraw, I can then just swap the fills and render 6 images from each drawing  :Smile: 

And I like the blue slate as well - just perhaps a tad darker and a tad more defined.


EDIT:  Or have I got that the wrong way around?  Which is heavier and more difficult to get up the cliffs?  Is it slate, or tile?

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## Straf

I think tiles are heavier than slate. Clay tiles used to be used as ballast when the grain ships came back from the continent. Curled Dutch tiles are a familiar site all across East Anglia because of this.

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## Mouse

Oh!  Now that _is_ interesting...

I'm happy now.  What you've just said means that I can do what I was thinking of doing, and sprinkle the warm tile colours around in the deeper greens of the lower slopes near the blue green of the ocean, while the colder blues of the slate will contrast equally well with the paler, more yellow grass of the upper slopes  :Smile: 

I can see me carrying on with this all through the night now.  (I get a bit carried away when I'm eager to see a result) Thanks Straf  :Smile:

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## Mouse

These are the updated slate textures:

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## Straf

They all look good but I still prefer the blue ones followed by the pink ones. The slate textures add a nice touch to the roofs.

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## Mouse

I have hit a dilemma!

I was making myself a nice set of building blocks, so that I could design buildings 'on site'... you know the sort of thing - basic rectangular building shapes, angles and joints...



I was drawing them as individual pieces on a CC3 map base and shading them by means of turning them into shaded polygons (giving them a pitch so that they catch the global sun or take a shadow).  As I worked I started to realise just how many symbols I was going to have to make - 6 textures means six variations on each part... plus I tried building something with my bits and pieces, and it turns out that I'm a useless architect!!!

So I have decided that since I do need to make a new symbol set one way or another, I will use my 6 new textures to generate a new housing set based on the floor plans of the existing houses so that I don't have to re-draw the entire city all over again with different shaped buildings.

This could take a couple of days to get sorted!

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## Mouse

Well... I've made a start on the new house set, and this comment is more for people who want to know how its done.

Each house has four parts (from my point of view and using my method)

First I make a vector drawing of the house on a nice black background, using appropriate fills.  (I'm using CorelDraw here - a very old version of it) I copy it and convert the copy into a bitmap, keeping the vector original to use in generating the other 3 parts of the house.



Then I use the shaping tool to subtract the parts of the house from the background to make a black and white alpha mask



The pitch of the roof requires what we call a 'map' which works along similar lines to a normal map, only its not a normal map (yes, confusing I know, but the colours CC3 uses to define direction and pitch are I believe different to those of a true normal map).  I use only the tile shapes to generate the map because I don't want the coping stones to be shaded one way or the other.



Although it won't be visible, the map also requires an alpha mask, which you will see excludes the line of coping stones along the ridge of the roof.



Believe it or not, when I put all these bitmaps and masks together and set them up in CC3 they will paste into the map already shaded according to the global sun, in exactly the same way as the predefined CD3 building sets do.  This is how far I am in the process of generating 40 different house shapes - each of them in 6 different colours...



As you can see, the smallest of the set has already taken me a day to get right, but its been a day of intensive learning.  The rest should be relatively easy (I hope)  :Smile:

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## Voolf

Mouse i don't have time to follow this thread closely, i just skim the most interesting points and wanted to say that this project is awesome. You put such much work to it and so many details. It is a slow, but steady progress. I love your map. It is good you are working on new rooftop textures. Previous are not looking good, like a rock or something when you zoom out.

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## Mouse

Thanks Voolf  :Smile: 

LOL!  It is a very loooooooong thread, that's for sure!  I never intended to take quite so long sorting this out - it just happened that way.

We are, surprisingly, quite close to the end now, but I think I will ask for an exception to the rule of sending people to the WIP thread when I put the city up in Finished Maps!

Maybe it would be better if I just included about ten images of the key stages of development in the Finished Maps thread, since I don't think I could be bothered reading the whole thing myself, and its my thread!  LOL!

Don't know what I'll do yet.

In the meantime here are the first 6 tiny new symbols in use in part of the map itself.  Though they will look a bit like coloured blocks as you zoom out, at least they can't really be called spotty  :Wink:

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