# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Dungeon/Subterranean Mapping >  Need Advice for Realistic Cave Planning

## Miseratum

This may be the wrong place to ask this, but I'm looking to plan out a rather expansive cave setup, and I want to do so in a realistic way, with all the features and claustrophobia of a real cave. Are there any common sense and physics/geology things that i should know before i begin? and whats the best way to plan out these snaking expanses of 3d space in a map?

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## damonjynx

Check out Jonathan Robert's site, Fantastic Maps. he has a thing on caves. Nature is your friend here, Google known cave systems and use that info for your maps. You could look at Jenolan Caves over here in Oz, I'm sure there must be some in NZ as well.

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## Wingshaw

Hmm, you've gotten me interested now, so I might need to do some further research into cave formation...

Based on a very quick Google search, the most common type of cave, and the largest cave systems, are formed when water flows through groundrock, most commonly limestone. Water naturally takes the path of least resistance, which means it follows existing faults and cracks. Over time, the continual flow of the water will enlarge those cracks, and eventually hollow out larger chambers.

From the point of view of making a map of all of this, having a natural cave system that twists all over the place like spaghetti is actually unlikely. Geology doesn't tend to work that way. It might be helpful to think of geological faults like a broken glass window: the cracks in a window aren't random, but run parallel to each other, varying in width, distance and depth.

I've scanned Google images to find some reasonably good real-world cave maps for you:
Oregon caves: does a good job of showing the way caves have many passages, but remain mostly linear
Laurel Caverns: shows the geological structure of the faults in the almost grid-like corridors on the left
Glowworm Cave: this example from your own country, shows that all of the cracks seem to be aligned in a particular direction (i.e. running from SW --> NE)

One problem that I think exists in all of these examples is that they don't really give a sense of what the interior of the cave is like. From my limited experience of caving, I know that caves go up, down, in, out, under, over; sometimes they have giant caverns, and sometimes they have tiny fissures that a person can barely squeeze through; sometimes the ceiling is almost out of sight above you, and other times it's so low you have to crawl; and sometimes the floor is smooth, sometimes it is rough and bumpy, and sometimes it's completely flooded. Doing both a plan and a side view might help you capture some of that claustrophobia (and grandeur).

Hope that's helpful. Remember, I am certainly no expert on caves, so I might be wrong about a lot of this.

Wingshaw

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## Bretton

I'm afraid the only way to get what he says is to draw the caves in an isometric point of view. In my experience, diedric does not work for caves if "ambience" an "aura" are to be captured at a glance . It's not an easy task tho. Even less if realism comes into play, as natural caves have a geometry and tracing that is most difficult to depict  in rigorous isometric, at least to me.

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## Miseratum

Wingshaw
  What you said about glass in a broken window resonated with me; From the maps I've seen and the ones you've linked there, it certainly does seem like theres a certain vertical and irratic quality to the 'lines', or rather, maybe using a broken glass window could be a great way to design a cave map. it is hard to understand the vertical quality of the caves though. I've been watching some videos of people traversing the 'Mammoth' Cave system, which looks pretty scary but also illustrates this weaving, crampt space quite well, and also something I hadn't really considered; That there are huge, hard rocks underground that the water has a more difficult time cutting through. doing both a plan and a side view is a good idea, and i have a feeling this will take a few tries anyhow  :Razz:

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## Miseratum

Bretton
  If i were to make a isometric grid first, i might have an easier time blocking out how the areas were going to look, or at the very least how far away from eachother and how expansive they would be. I could use cubes to plot out the areas, and use a sorta one-sided opacity style of drawing. But theres no way that I would be able to keep it rigorous. Either Isometric or Cavalier qould probly work so I'll give those a try.

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## Bretton

Wow so you really will be trying my stupid risky ideas?  :Razz:   now I'll feel responsible, but glad it might help, and really eager to see where this leads to.
By the way: the isometric grid sounds like an excellent idea to me.

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## Miseratum

I mean why not? haha nah its mostly to plan out the setting for a story, so it has to be quite thorough (or rather I want it to be) but I also want it to be something I can enjoy making. Isometric is fun, so I'm about it. If it turns out alright ill definitely post it for sure!

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## Miseratum

This is how it is so far, and I gotta say this has been a pretty good way to map this out. I know its pretty scrabbled and the Iso isnt even accurate but it was good enough for what i needed  :Razz:  thanks for the idea!

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## XCali

Hey! Good job so far. It is coming along nicely.

I do, however, want to point out something. I couldn't help but notice two parts of your cave, "Heaven" and "Hell", it is something that is so often overused in fiction to denote specific places. I feel a little creativity is needed to grab attention, something with a bit of specific story for makes those places carry the weight of those names. Heaven points to a paradise and hell points to a place of fire and utter and complete darkness. Why are those places in the cave significant? Is there something that points to that? I feel giving some creative thought to those places will give more meaning. 
Maybe something like "Obsidian Abyss" and "Heavenly Window". Suddenly there are clues and intrigue. Why is it Obsidian and what is in the abyss? What is through that window? People like mystery. 

I hope this helps.  :Smile:

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## Miseratum

@XCali haha good spotting, They are not supposed to be names at all; they are markers for story states. Heaven and hell basically refer to things being 'Their worst' and 'their best' in the ongoing story of a man trying to escape said caves. They unspecifically denote chapters will be centered around, but I probly wont keep heaven and hell as chapter names, a bit on the nose. If you have any ideas for chapter names I'm all about it though, names as important as those warrant a second opinion anyhow. But this was mostly an exercise for story planning is all. very hard to have a character navigate a constient underground space without planning it out.

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## sarawinter

Hi there  :Smile: 

I'm also writing a story with a cave (and dwarf mine) as one of the central places. I understand what you mean with making the space consistent, that's really important - and dang difficult to do if all you have is text. 

A tip for thinking of names for chapters is to use a phrase from your own text that exists in the chapter. That of course requires that you have written the text. I usually go back and figure out what I want the title to be after I'm done writing, and have a placeholder name (like you have) until I find something suitable.

If you want some inspiration for your map, you can check out my attempt at making (a fairly simple) isometric map here: https://www.cartographersguild.com/s...ad.php?t=43410

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## Ruztik

@Miseratum

Hi there! I am currently working on recreating a cave in 3D and came across your draft in this thread for your own project. Really nice work, is it possible you may be willing to share any newer versions with me to draw inspiration from for my own project?

Will patiently await your reply  :Smile:

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