# Mapmaking Discussion & Philosophy (WIP/Critique) > Software Discussion >  CC3 Documentation

## Allyn

If you are a CC3 user, I need your input. If you've tried CC3 or CC2 Pro and couldn't make headway with it, I need your input, too.

This mission I've accepted from the folks at Profantasy is to create documentation for CC3 that informs and enhances a user's experience. The Essentials Guide that comes with the software is just a bare minimum to get folks started. My question to you all is, what did you want to know after the Essentials Guide? 

Some of the topics I've gotten so far are
1) How to scale maps-- pulling a section out of a world map and creating regional maps
2) More details on the Effects
3) More details on how to work with a CAD program
4) More details on using Editing tools
5) Creating macros to perform mapping functions, such as hiding/showing sheets and changing views
6) Creating custom drawing tools
7) Creating symbols using your art


What roadblocks did you encounter trying to create your maps that a better explanation/tutorial would have resolved for you?

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## NeonKnight

For me a little more indeppth info of all of the above. Not all of us are totally understanding of some terms etc (i.e. especaiily sheets & effects).

I'll get back to you with more info of some of the things I had to figure out myself that wasn't fully explained.

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## RPMiller

I went ahead and made this thread sticky so that others will find it easily. I'll unstick it once you have gathered a good amount of data.

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## theprofessor

Hi, I've been lurking for quite a while, first time poster...

I always have trouble with the trim/break/and node features and would appreciate some help with those.

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## cniemira

I'm pretty new to CC3, having only created a couple of maps so far. Note that I've also never used a previous version of the software, so I hope I'm your target audience.

My main interest is in dungeon design (DD3), so my suggestions may be biased in that direction. I've figured most of this stuff out on my own, but it would have been *really* nice to have had the answers in a nice convenient book. Still, here are a few documentation suggestions:

1) How does one inspect the properties of an element on the map?

2) How does one work with symbol catalogs? What's the deal with the "master filter" thingie, and how does it impact which symbols you see? (A particularly useful question after you install the additional Symbol Sets).

3) How does one adjust and manipulate the grid, particularly when we intend to print or display the map as a battlemap?

4) Creating symbols of one's own... I know you've already got this one, but I'd like to suggest covering areas such as: making symbols "smart" (and what exactly that means, and how "smart" symbols work), and what the implications of putting them in certain or sheets layers are.

5) How are the default settings for layers and sheets intended to be used? Meaning - why do things work the way they do out-of-the-box, and why would you want to change them.

Other than these, it's probably a good idea to wade through these and other forums looking for "how do I..." questions, but I suspect you've already done that.

One other thing you might want to do is add a section on techniques. For example, I've used some CAD software before, so I learned pretty quickly that it's a better idea to sketch my maps on paper ahead of time. Now, some people may disagree with me (I am a newbie after all), but I have a hard time believing that CC3 is _design_ software. A buddy of mine who's also using CC3 for the first time (and is a former Dundjinni user) kept butting heads with the software trying to move things and around and make major changes in the middle of map before I suggested doing pre-design on graph paper.

Okay, that's my $0.02... hope at least some of this is helpful.

And, good luck on your noble quest! I'm looking forward to reading what you come up with.

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## delgondahntelius

I've recently upgraded from CC2pro to CC3 and the number one roadblocks has been Sheets and Effects, mostly effects and having a tutorial on these would greatly be appreciated. 

An in-depth tutorial on symbols, symbol creation and editing would also be high on my priority list. 

Thanks for asking and making a great product better  :Smile:

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## Allyn

This is all good stuff. Thank you all for your contributions and please keep them coming.

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## PrismShard

What I'd like to know more about is how to get a map design made into a useful printable tile of sorts with a 1" for every 5' ratio to use for miniatures.  I got this to work with my last D&D campaign by tediously setting up the window view of a portion of my map, and printing off the existing view, but there's got to be a better way.

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## Elderbree TM

Just Installed CC3 for the first time and it is a first time for me doing anything like this so I will get back to you once I fiddle around a bit

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## Jack _of_Tales

First time I've really been to this forum and was intending on looking around for help of this sort, actually. I've seen and heard that city maps can be done with CC3 but have no idea how to start. I find it difficult to use many of the tools such as sculpting rivers the way you want them to look (even with sketch since erasing seems impossible without deleting the whole thing) to the creation of individual buildings on a map. I think it'd be great to start a world map that I could zoom in on a particular city and see say, The Griffonwing tavern along the port next to John's shoestore. 

I've pretty much got the hang of the basic click and drop for terrain, roads, and symbols but that's it.

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## buddha6

As a new user, I'd really like some in depth discussion of scaling maps. For example, drilling down thru a multi-level subterranean cave/dungeon system starting at the surface. 

I'm having a fairly difficult time getting my head around the idea because, in my view, it to needs to be scaled in three dimensions. Quite possibly, I'm simply not seeing the forest for the trees as I'm still very low on the learning curve.

TIA.

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## Allyn

I don't understand how you mean scaling. What I think of as 'scaling' doesn't fall in with the example you gave. Can you explain in little more?

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## Bohunk

I used CC2 & CC3 as my primary map making tool for quite sometime now and honestly there is still a lot of stuff I never learned how to do.  I would see beautiful maps created and say how the heck do I do that?  

It is certainly frustrating.  I think a CC3 forum like this would certainly be helpful.  And of course as many tutorials you and others can make would be a great help.

Thanks.

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## RPMiller

There is a ProFantasy forum. You can find it here:
http://forum.profantasy.com/

Not that I wouldn't want you to spend all your time here.  :Smile:  I just wanted to let you know that they actually do have a forum now.

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## Bohunk

Thanks RP!  Did not know this...

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## sCRIMSHAW

I can't seem to figure out how to pull symbols from the catalog. I want north/south mountains rather than east/west. Would someone mind spelling it out for me? I  just bought the program the other day, and havn't done this kind of stuff before.

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## wigwam

I've had CC2 Pro for a long time and shelved it because I found it far too complicated to use. (Even when compared to Photoshop - whic is easy to get going with and takes a lifetime to master.)

Now I have upgraded to CC3 in an attempt to start afresh amd guess what - th whole thing is still far too complicated to use.

What I'd really like is a tutorial that is on two levels. 1st: it walks me through the basic way of creating a map (one of each for each of the modules. ie. a fracttal world, then an overland map, then a city, then a dungeon, then a perspective view, then a character or two, and so on!) 2nd: I create the same thing but the tutorial is stuffed with info on the tools used and their options.

So in the end I can get some artwork completed and feel good about myself. Then I can revisit the artwork and feel confient with the program.

Also if there were some embedded or acompanying video clips, sample stages of maps, user insights, .... All would be good!

It's a lot to ask for but I don't want ProFantasy software to be relegated to the pile of powerfull-but-poorly-documented software and left on my shelf again for another year or more!

Phew!

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## NeonKnight

> I've had CC2 Pro for a long time and shelved it because I found it far too complicated to use. (Even when compared to Photoshop - whic is easy to get going with and takes a lifetime to master.)
> 
> Now I have upgraded to CC3 in an attempt to start afresh amd guess what - th whole thing is still far too complicated to use.
> 
> What I'd really like is a tutorial that is on two levels. 1st: it walks me through the basic way of creating a map (one of each for each of the modules. ie. a fracttal world, then an overland map, then a city, then a dungeon, then a perspective view, then a character or two, and so on!) 2nd: I create the same thing but the tutorial is stuffed with info on the tools used and their options.
> 
> So in the end I can get some artwork completed and feel good about myself. Then I can revisit the artwork and feel confient with the program.
> 
> Also if there were some embedded or acompanying video clips, sample stages of maps, user insights, .... All would be good!
> ...


Funny you ask about video, because June's Annual contribution was video.

SOrry, it does cost money to get the annual, but for that money, you get a lot of cool content.

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## Mike

Hiya,

I just bought CC3 last week and, though I'm convinced it's the right tool and there's obviously a lot of power there to be used, I am finding it frustrating to get started.  The basic Essentials pdf barely scratches the surface... a lot more help is needed for newbies like me.

Help with the following would be nice:

1) Layers and Sheets
2) Basic editing--how to go back and clean up mistakes
3) How to convert something from FT Pro into something usable in CC3

... I dunno, there's just so much...

-Mike

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## NeonKnight

> Hiya,
> 
> I just bought CC3 last week and, though I'm convinced it's the right tool and there's obviously a lot of power there to be used, I am finding it frustrating to get started.  The basic Essentials pdf barely scratches the surface... a lot more help is needed for newbies like me.
> 
> Help with the following would be nice:
> 
> 1) Layers and Sheets
> 2) Basic editing--how to go back and clean up mistakes
> 3) How to convert something from FT Pro into something usable in CC3
> ...


Mike, I am gonna answer your questions here, in another thread. It'll be done soon.

OK, I've covered SHEETS & LAYERS here: http://www.cartographersguild.com/sh...7105#post27105

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## tppytel

A few things that I've bumped into over the past couple weeks since I bought CC3...

1) Symbols - the relationship between symbol styles, symbol catalog settings, FastCAD symbol catalogs, the actual PNG's themselves, and the UI that interacts with all those objects is extraordinarily unintuitive and almost completely undocumented. If you want to do anything more with symbols than use the premade styles, you're going to need to spend hours basically reverse-engineering the symbol system from the vague clues you get out of the UI's behavior. I really think this is one of the most user-unfriendly subsystems I've ever seen (coming from a UNIX nerd) and is absolutely screaming out for documentation.

2) The various trimming and selecting functions are pretty foreign to most people, I'd guess. (They were to me, at least.) These are decently well-documented in the Help files, but it would be nice to have a single tutorial bringing the info together with some examples.

3) Sheet Effects are scantily documented and prone to strange interactions, but also very important if you want a good-looking map.

4) A short tutorial on editing, combining, and exploding existing entities would be helpful. This is all in the help, but again it's spread across a lot of topics and would be much more useful all in one place.

I didn't find the basic use of sheets and layers to be very problematic compared to many people. I have to wonder whether they actually followed the built-in tutorial, as it covers those topics quite well.

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## Murgh Bpurn

Hi all

I would be interested to hear how this is progressing?

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## Allyn

It is progressing very well. I do want to thank the folks who took the time to respond to my request and gave their input.

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## Murgh Bpurn

Cool, look forward to seeing it!  :Smile:

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## NeonKnight

You Need Rep!

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## languard

First, what is the status on this project?  Been a bit since someone posted in this thread.

Better macro documentation is a must.  Currently the only real complete macro reference is in the Tome of Ultimate Mapping.  Even then, that's just several spreadsheets listing out all the commands with little rhyme or reason, and no examples.  For a programmer like myself, this is a painful, but workable, solution.  I could see a non-programmer taking one look at this quagmire and running away screaming.

Granted, the average or casual user won't care about creating macros, but serious users will be creating/using macros.

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## Allyn

> First, what is the status on this project?  Been a bit since someone posted in this thread.
> 
> Better macro documentation is a must.  Currently the only real complete macro reference is in the Tome of Ultimate Mapping.  Even then, that's just several spreadsheets listing out all the commands with little rhyme or reason, and no examples.  For a programmer like myself, this is a painful, but workable, solution.  I could see a non-programmer taking one look at this quagmire and running away screaming.
> 
> Granted, the average or casual user won't care about creating macros, but serious users will be creating/using macros.



The full manual has been available for a little while now. Go to your registration page to download it. This manual contains what is felt that the majority of 'average' users will need. It doesn't include macros. Macros are considered an advanced feature of CC3.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that all there is in the Tome of Ultimate Mapping for macros are the spreadsheets. There is a chapter that includes a good bit of information on writing macros in the ToUM. In the chapter Menus and Macros, the macro info starts on page 122 and goes through to page 128.

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## languard

Ah, so that's the manual you were talking about.  Gotcha.

I'll go take another poke at the Tome, see what's in those pages.  Been getting a headache trying to create a semi-complex macro :p

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## Vatras

This is probably a stupid question, but how and where do I download this manual? I cannot find anything on my profile page which would link me to it.

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## jnmj

Having just found the forum here I think its worth noting as well that there are now a series of Video Tutorials as well.

They are hosted on the profantasy.com website and they are over an hour if you watch all three.  

When I was done all I could think of was, "It can't be that easy"  Guess what, it is.   

I've had a lot of basic experience with Paint Shop Pro, Corel Draw I think it was called a while ago, CC2, and then purchased CC3.  After seeing those videos I immediately switched to CC3 and do not regret it.

Enjoy!

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## Valarian

> This is probably a stupid question, but how and where do I download this manual? I cannot find anything on my profile page which would link me to it.


It's on the registration page, where you can see of your registered keys. Down the right hand side, there's a load of links (updates, etc.). One of these links is the full Cartography Suite manual.
The Tome of Ultimate mapping is a separate product.

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## Fenyx

Where is this registration page?

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## Leonal

Under the Service>Registration menu on the Profantasy site.
http://www.profantasy.com/service/entrance.asp

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## Leonal

I wouldn't think so. Besides it's not really expensive imo, so go and buy it  :Wink:

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## NeonKnight

Posts removed which dealt with Piracy/Illegitimate copies of software.

Again, the guild does not condone discussions of Illegal software, especially when makers of some of that software are members of the guild.

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## pengod

Definately sheet effects, I'm a PS user normally and though the effects have similar names they behave very differently.

Plus I'm using Fractal Terrains too (the original) but finding information on the editing of FT export files is nearlt impossible.

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## waldronate

The FT export files are for CC2 and not for CC3. You need to convert them from being layer-based (every entity has a "layer" description without particular relation to draw order) to sheet-based (a sheet is a collection of entities that has a specific meaning in terms of draw order). http://forum.profantasy.com/comments...cussionID=1136 has a discussion on the process.

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## whitbyrudie

Just posted it in a seperate thread, but i'm having a good deal of difficultly figuring out how to import a fractal Terrain map, a step by step guide on that in the manual would be money

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## Sheelon666

Hi all

recent entrant to the forum and indeed mapping at all - I was just wondering how it all turned out for you "new" users of CC3 - I'm trying to learn Gimp and considering Autorealm (whose manual makes it all sound so easy).  Looking at the maps which have been produced so far however, I have to hand it to CC3 for making possibly the most attractive and eye catching maps.  Did the tutorials you read and then possibly DLed in video form ever help the program come together.  

Saying this with a view to splashing out that £30 next week for CC3...trying to garner opinions beofre I do so.

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## punga

There are two things that so far aren't clear to me which haven't been mentioned:

1) The scale of the map, specifically the dimensions entered when a new map is created. I get the feeling that they are in some "real life" measurement, such as miles, or feet, but it doesn't appear in the software, the help file, or the manual (though I might've missed the manual. Apologies if so).

2) Going back and doing changes. For example, changing the map's background color. I eventually figured out how to do it, but selecting the background layer wasn't trivial (I ended up typing 'background' on the command prompt).

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## NeonKnight

> There are two things that so far aren't clear to me which haven't been mentioned:
> 
> 1) The scale of the map, specifically the dimensions entered when a new map is created. I get the feeling that they are in some "real life" measurement, such as miles, or feet, but it doesn't appear in the software, the help file, or the manual (though I might've missed the manual. Apologies if so).
> 
> 2) Going back and doing changes. For example, changing the map's background color. I eventually figured out how to do it, but selecting the background layer wasn't trivial (I ended up typing 'background' on the command prompt).


1. When you create an OUTDOOR map using the NEW MAP you are asked for the dimensions in MILES (X Miles Horizontal, Y Miles Vertical). When you select dungeon or City Map, the template asks if you for dimensions in FEET.

2. What sort of Changes? There are mad types of tools (Usually on the left side menu) for changing color, text, nodes, etc.

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## munch

ok I am too new to suggest anything yet but I will be back in a few weeks

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## Kevin Hogan

I've just started with CC3.  I've been watching the videos by Joe Sweeney and pretty much doing what he is doing.  They have helped a lot.   It really helps to see an example of of something.  I followed the step by step on making text along a curve in the manual.  Some stuff I am currently trying to wrap my head around are:  How should I be using the "default sea" option?  I tired two colors, but I am having trouble with the "Bring to Front" and "Send to back buttons".  Not working as expected.  More details on the effects with examples of how the master use them are very useful.  Glow is fantastic!  I followed the instructions in the manual to create my own symbol set from PNG files, but now I want some hints on how to search for symbols, add custom buttons (that bring up my catalogs).  I am also wondering if I can make a river line get wider as it gets closer to the mouth, and make it blend better with the bay.   I am also a bit confused on how they organized symbols.  I was building a battle map and had to hunt around for the trees.  I kept saying to myself  they gotta have trees... What about a dead tree.....hmmmm no luck so far.  I have also seen some kick ass maps that blend a pavement with grass/dirt and want to create the same effect, but have no idea how.  It looks like a ruin with grass starting to take over.    When I built my 1st dungeon battlemap (an outdoor setting), when I placed the trees they stick out over the edge of the map.  Want to know how to control things so things that are half on get trimmed properly.  Hope this helps!

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## Mateus090985

I agree with this.

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## aerondor

I've used CC on and off for a loong time. Heck my earliest Profantasy stuff doesn't even appear on the online account.

That said, there is more time "off" than "on".  

I see beautiful maps created in a multitude of styles, but for me I think it is just "too hard".  Wimpy I know.  

What I would find useful (apart from some easy to follow tutorials that show how to makes maps in different styles) is the ability to take a map I already have, and then scale up.  So it is one little bit of a larger map.

I know you have "large scale -> small scale" question in the first post, but for me, sometimes I know what a region looks like, but then I need to grow larger.

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## lastofthemany

1st.  Is this initiative still alive?
2nd.  For me exporting from FT to specific styles is an issue.  I can do it, but it seems clunky.  Right now, I export, then copy and paste to the style I want.  Just wondering if there  are better/faster ways of doing that.
3rd.  An explanation of Effect interactions/stacking would be nice.

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## lonewriter

I have CC3 and am having trouble with the coast line feature. When I use it, it seems to color over my land mass.

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## 3l3phant

I think one thing I would request for the updated Tome (which is a much more robust version of the documentation) would be to use icons for all of the different sections. The initial tutorial is fantastic about showing which icon the text refers to, but it's hit-or-miss for the rest of them ...

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## CharlesRobinson

I do not see it on the this thread so I am just going to put it out there.  CC3 has been upgraded to CC3+.

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## Charlesmp

I would welcome any additional documentation. I agree with the Joe Sweeny videos, they have been lots of help.

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## monsen

Could I request that this thread gets unstickied.

This was posted back when Allyn was writing the CC3 documentation, and has run it's course a long time ago. I am the current maintainer of the CC3+ documentation, and I wasn't even aware of this thread until I stumbled over it today.

This request would probably have been better to PM directly to a moderator, but I don't have access to PM's yet.

Thanks.

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## ChickPea

Hi, I'll unstick it for you. It is a little obsolete now, being eight years old (a lifetime in software development!)

If you'd like to start a thread at some point with useful info/links for CC3+ users, you'd be more than welcome to, and we can probably get that sticked in place of this one.

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## Mouse

A new thread would be a really great idea  :Smile: 

Hi Monsen  :Very Happy:

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## Mark Oliva

Greetings, Remy!  I didn't know you were here.  Chime in a bit more often!  I like your dragon icon.

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## monsen

> If you'd like to start a thread at some point with useful info/links for CC3+ users, you'd be more than welcome to, and we can probably get that sticked in place of this one.


Thanks. I'll see about doing that one day.



and Hi guys :)

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